₦airaland Forum

Weah96:
A judge who allows a murderer to walk free is a human, not an omnipotent deity whose will is absolute.

Who are you to question God, if he is what you say he is? You cannot judge the judge.

malvisguy212:
did you read the op?
God design the moral law that mankind can live in peace with one another, ,the physical law of man did not contradict the moral law, any religion that his teaching contradict this two law are not from God.

All religion teaches that salvation can be attained by human effort(good deed)your good deed can saved you,example, if a man killed your loved one and he was arrested,only,but on the day of his judgment, the judge consider his Good deed and free'd him, can you called the judge a good judge?. christianity teaches that salvation is the free gift of God(romans 6:23) , your good deed cannot saved you, you are saved by the mercy of God,example, if you are a bad man and you truly repent but the next day you die, the bad things you do cannot be counted because you genuely repent and God forgive you bible say "loved cover a multitude of sin".

PastorAIO:
Hello Malvisguy, You still haven't articulated for us what Religion is supposed to do exactly. You seem to suggest it vaguely when you say .... All religion teaches that salvation can be attained by human effort ....

The question of 'what is Salvation' is pertinent here, but let us leave it for now. It'll be like an elephant in the room.

I wonder how extensive your study of all religions are, before you can make the sweeping statement that
All religion teaches that salvation can be attained by human effort.

In ATR if you offend a deity you can get remission by offering certain sacrifices. These religions have moral codes but in them we find a lot of the time that remission for offences can be settled by making certain sacrifices.

In Judaism, from which xtianity is derived and which predates xtianity, remission from sins is settled by certain sin offerings. Prior to Judaism, in the bible, we are told the story of Job who would make sacrifices on behalf of his children to settle their sins. His children were not even aware. That is another case of religion where sins are forgiven without the sinner actually doing anything.

I'm presuming that by 'salvation' you mean forgiveness of sins. If you mean something else please let us know.

In Islam Allah is supposed to be able to forgive just like that without requiring the effort of killing Jesus. The only human effort required is contrition.

please can you tell me how Christianity requires even less effort than these?

malvisguy212:
if the murderer repent genuely, he will be saved, that is the grace jesus brought to us.

Weah96:
You cannot eat your cake and also have it. According to you, good deeds don't matter, only the grace of God saves.

If your statement were true, then there should be more than a few SINNERS in heaven. The fact that there are no sinners in heaven means that GOOD DEEDS are taken into consideration FIRST.

Think about it.

malvisguy212:
this will by my last comment on this.

What do you understand by 'genuine'? That true repentance, right? Ok, the criminal that was hung together with jesus on the cross, according to salvation by human effort, the criminal does not deserve second chance, Because his bad deed will outweigh his good deed. But the criminal beg for mercy, ask for forgiveness, and he was forgiving. This is salvation in christ jesus.

Thank you for your time.

Weah96:
The criminal DIED after repenting. He didn't have the TIME on earth to SIN AGAIN. So this analogy
SUPPORTS the point I'm making.

After he repented, he was a GOOD person until his death.

Good deeds save. Not grace. It's blatantly obvious.

malvisguy212:
i will advice you to understand the holiness of God.
Good deed is not enough for you to fill with the holiness of God.

malvisguy212:
Here is a passage from quran.
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 101 Surah Al-Qariah verses 6-11:
6 Then he whose balance (of good deeds) will be (found) heavy 7 Will
be in a life of good pleasure and satisfaction. 8 But he whose balance
(of good deeds) will be (found) light 9 Will have his home in a
(bottomless) pit. 10 And what will explain to thee what this is? 11 (It
is) a Fire, blazing fiercely!

malvisguy212:
In the case of job, the promise has not yet been fulfilled hence the sacrifice to attained holiness.jesus has already pay the price to those who believe in him, man need not to sacrifice any more, are you a pastor? You shuld'nt be talking about sacrifice, Because christ has already pay the price for us. I gave you a verse from the bible, ephesian 2:8. Did you read it? Romans 6:23 say it is the FREE GIFTS OF GOD.
Judaism are still expecting the christ, meaning they do not believe in the finishing work of Christ.

malvisguy212:
the criminal ask jesus for forgiveness and jesus say"today you will be in paradise"the criminal know there is God, but he ask jesus to take him to heaven,according to you(weah96) if you claim that his good deed saved him, you are wrong Because his bad deed will certainly be outweighting his good deed. He pray) for forgiveness for the first time, which mean he has been doing bad deed long before his dead, although bible never mention the bad deed, but common sense willl make you understand.

PastorAIO:
Okay, I'll make a study of the Holiness of God soon. But let's stick with this matter of salvation by human effort for now.

Why is 'Good deed not enough to fill with the holiness of God'? I don't understand what you mean even at the level of basic grammar. What do you mean by 'filling with the holiness of God'? I thought we were talking about salvation by which I presume you mean 'forgiveness of sins'.



..But christianity teaches the exact same thing.

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. (Rev 20:11–12)




I wasn't talking about fulfilling promises or needing to sacrifice anymore. I was giving you an example of a religion in which 'forgiveness of sins', which I believe is what you mean by salvation, is achieved without the sinner even knowing about the sacrifice. This refutes your claim that All religions require salvation by human effort. That was my simple point. Have you got anything to say about that, or are you prepared to withdraw the false claim?
Gospel should not be spread with lies!!

Weah96:
Listen and listen very carefully. The man repented on the CROSS. He died on the CROSS. No sin was committed BETWEEN repentance and death. This means that he died almost a perfect person, save for the occasional desire to stab one of those security guards in the eye.

Why are you pretending here that your God remembers activities committed prior to the repentance of the individual?

That's the whole point of repentance. God forgets the previous activities if the party agrees to desist from further immoral behavior.

The man on the cross didn't engage in any immoral activity between his repentance and untimely death.

What are you saying?

malvisguy212:
the ark of the covenant illustrate the holiness of God.The Ark of the Covenant was an embodiment of God's presence with
the Israelites. The atonement cover (or "mercy seat" that covered the
ark was God's throne (2 Sam 6:2) and God's presence was above it (Lev 16:2); it was also the place where God met Moses and gave him commands (Ex 25:22). If someone approached the ark, they would effectively be in God's presence - a sinner standing before a holy God
who does not tolerate evil (Ps 5:4-6) - and would die as a result of their sins.this is the holiness of God.

malvisguy212:
Revelation 20:11-12.is not talking about the believers,This is a judgment against non-Christians only. This occurs immediately before God ushers believers into the eternal state.BELIEVERS WILL NOT STAND IN FRONT OF THE THRONE OF GOD FOR JUDGMENT. Everyone who rejected Jesus Christ will give an account for his or her rebellion against God’s will.

PastorAIO:
So in short, you are saying that Moses was without sin.




Whether it involves Christians or not the bottom-line is that they are judged according to their deeds.

That it is not about christians is your own invention.

PastorAIO:
So in short, you are saying that Moses was without sin.




Whether it involves Christians or not the bottom-line is that they are judged according to their deeds.

That it is not about christians is your own invention.

Weah96:
His brain is break dancing. Or he's pretending to be an I)diot to avoid conceding that he got it wrong.

Sinners do not enter heaven, and yet good deeds don't lead to salvation. Which kan nonsense be dat one?

malvisguy212:
thank you for the insult.

malvisguy212:
from birth,moses was keept safe by God himself,infact ,it was God himself that buried moses.

Are you a pastor? Am surprise you dont understand the teaching of christ.
John 5:24."Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who
sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over
from death to life.

THE BELIEVERS WILL NOT STAND IN FRONT OF GOD FOR JUDGMENT.

PastorAIO:
Let's leave the Pastor part out of it. Otherwise it would be like appealing to authority to back what I'm saying with the name Pastor.

I know God kept Moses safe from birth, it is recorded in the bible, just like the way God has kept me safe from birth and kept you safe from birth and will continue to do so by his grace. However the question I asked was 'Was Moses without Sin?'.

I believe you are confusing different aspects of Judicial process here. There is judgment which is an evaluation of a situation. Then there is Judgment which is executed after the evaluation.

In modern parlance you would call both Trial and Sentencing.

You are saying that Christians will not stand Trial at all. When I read John 5:24 understand 'Krisin' to mean Sentencing. Christians will not be sentenced.
In fact I think that the KJV captures it best:


24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.


They will undergo Trial and after trial they will not be Condemned. They will not be Sentenced.

malvisguy212:
Agnostics often fall into two camps - those who believe that all
religions can lead to God or those who believe that true religion cannot
be discerned. This page examines both positions in an attempt to
determine where the truth may lie. Logically, there are several
possibilities. Atheists would say that no religion leads to God, since He
doesn't exist. It is possible that one, several or all religions lead to God.

ALL WAYS LEAD TO GOD:
There are hundreds of religions in the world today, and many ancient
religions that are no longer practiced. It is possible, and perhaps likely,
that all religions contain some truth and/or good moral advice.
However, in examining religious teaching, it is important to examine
the fundamental beliefs of each religion and compare those to each
other. When this is done, it is apparent that primary religious teachings contradict each other. Judaism says that the Messiah is coming,
Christianity says that He has come, and Islam says that Mohammad
provided all the information necessary for religious life. Obviously,
these truth claims cannot be simultaneously true, since they contradict
each other. Logically, we must reject the idea that all religions lead to
God.

TRUE RELIGEON:IS IT POSSIBLE TO DISCERN?
I believe that there are some things that we can discern about God
from the nature of the universe. The universe demonstrates some
remarkable evidence of design. What kind of God designed all this, and how can we know His true identity? Most people who believe God
exists would agree with the argument that the God who designed the
universe must be a personal God. For God to put so much time and care
into the design of the universe and life, it would seem logical to
conclude that God really cared about His creation, and was personally
involved in it's creation. A God who did not care about his creation would never be expected to spend 14 billion years of development
just so that humans would have a nice place to live for a few thousand
years. Therefore, it would seem likely that the true God must be a
personal God, and not the God of deism, pantheism, Buddhism, etc. So,
it would seem that these religions probably do not represent the true
nature of God.
ELIMINATE THE ILLOGICAL:
The powerful and personal Creator God of the universe would probably
want to reveal Himself to His spiritual creatures. So, it seems likely that
God would have revealed His true nature to one or more of the
peoples of the earth. Are all the revelations of the world religions a
reflection of God or just certain one(s)? This is the difficult question that
cannot be answered in merely one short page. However, I believe one can come up with a best answer through much study and through the
process of elimination. For example, some religions make truth claims
that are obviously false. The LDS church (Mormons) claims that gods are created through procreation and that creatures created by those gods can eventually become gods themselves. However, this religion suffers
from the problem of how the first god came into existence. Logic
would dictate that God is eternal and uncreated. All religions that claim
otherwise would seem to be logically flawed.
BASIC RELIGEON CLAIM:
Since many religious claims contradict one another, it would seem that
not all religions could be simultaneously true. How can we tell which
religion(s) are true? If you examine the world religions, most describe
ethical and moral laws that are ascribed to God. Breaking of those laws
is an offense to God. How do different religions handle that problem?
Many religions say that if one tries to obey God's laws most of the time, God will accept you. However, I believe that we can eliminate
that idea as being true of the Creator God of the universe. God designed
physical laws of the universe. These laws are constant and
unbreakable. God Himself, seems to break those physical laws only
rarely. I propose that this God would not accept the breaking of His
moral laws so easily. In fact, from the nature of the physical laws, it would seem that God would not accept the breaking of His moral laws
at all. Nearly all religions claim that God will ignore our breaking of His
moral laws as long as we try our best. This is where Christianity differs
from all other world religions. Christianity says that our good works
cannot erase our bad moral choices. Think of it in terms of our legal
systems. We are convicted of crimes on the basis of breaking the law. If we break a law, we are found guilty under the law. It doesn't matter
what good things we have done in our lives, if we break the law. We
might get a lesser sentence, but we will still be convicted of a crime.
So, God cannot simply ignore our crimes against Him. We will be found
guilty, despite our good works. Christianity says that our bad deeds
(sins) must be eliminated in order to be acceptable to God. The elimination of sins was accomplished by the sacrifice of the Savior
(Jesus Christ). Jesus Christ is God Himself, who came to earth, led a sinless life, and died on the cross as a sacrifice to take the sins of
mankind. So, God Himself provided a means of eliminating our sins
against Him. However, the elimination of sins is not automatic. Since
God will allow people into His presence after death, they must agree to
His terms. This contract is executed through faith in the sacrifice of
Jesus Christ to eliminate our sins. By accepting God's terms, our sins are erased and we can stand in the presence of God without any sin. Only
our good deeds will be counted for our judgment. Those who don't
accept God's terms will be judged on the basis of God's laws - and will
be found guilty.
CHRISTIANITY IS DIFFERENT :
No other religion provides a provision for God's forgiveness of
sin, which is why I believe Christianity to be the only true way
to God. Jesus said He is the only way to God and that all people
must follow Him to enter heaven. All other religions are man's attempt to become acceptable to God. Only Christianity says
that God alone provides the only means to be acceptable to
Him. So, either Christianity is true and all other religions are false or
Christianity is false and God does not hold people accountable for law
breaking. Personally, I would not want to rely upon God ignoring His
own rules. It doesn't seem to be logical reasoning. This is the choice you must make.

CONCLUSION:
So, I encourage you to examine the world religions to see if what I am
saying is true. Don't give up on the ability to separate the truth claims
of the world's religions. If Christianity is true, you must make a choice
or you will be judged on the basis of your sins against God. Let me
know if you have any questions.

malvisguy212:
OAM4J . Can you put this on the homepage?

malvisguy212:
Agnostics often fall into two camps - those who believe that all
religions can lead to God or those who believe that true religion cannot
be discerned. This page examines both positions in an attempt to
determine where the truth may lie. Logically, there are several
possibilities. Atheists would say that no religion leads to God, since He
doesn't exist. It is possible that one, several or all religions lead to God.

ALL WAYS LEAD TO GOD:
There are hundreds of religions in the world today, and many ancient
religions that are no longer practiced. It is possible, and perhaps likely,
that all religions contain some truth and/or good moral advice.
However, in examining religious teaching, it is important to examine
the fundamental beliefs of each religion and compare those to each
other. When this is done, it is apparent that primary religious teachings contradict each other. Judaism says that the Messiah is coming,
Christianity says that He has come, and Islam says that Mohammad
provided all the information necessary for religious life. Obviously,
these truth claims cannot be simultaneously true, since they contradict
each other. Logically, we must reject the idea that all religions lead to
God.

TRUE RELIGEON:IS IT POSSIBLE TO DISCERN?
I believe that there are some things that we can discern about God
from the nature of the universe. The universe demonstrates some
remarkable evidence of design. What kind of God designed all this, and how can we know His true identity? Most people who believe God
exists would agree with the argument that the God who designed the
universe must be a personal God. For God to put so much time and care
into the design of the universe and life, it would seem logical to
conclude that God really cared about His creation, and was personally
involved in it's creation. A God who did not care about his creation would never be expected to spend 14 billion years of development
just so that humans would have a nice place to live for a few thousand
years. Therefore, it would seem likely that the true God must be a
personal God, and not the God of deism, pantheism, Buddhism, etc. So,
it would seem that these religions probably do not represent the true
nature of God.
ELIMINATE THE ILLOGICAL:
The powerful and personal Creator God of the universe would probably
want to reveal Himself to His spiritual creatures. So, it seems likely that
God would have revealed His true nature to one or more of the
peoples of the earth. Are all the revelations of the world religions a
reflection of God or just certain one(s)? This is the difficult question that
cannot be answered in merely one short page. However, I believe one can come up with a best answer through much study and through the
process of elimination. For example, some religions make truth claims
that are obviously false. The LDS church (Mormons) claims that gods are created through procreation and that creatures created by those gods can eventually become gods themselves. However, this religion suffers
from the problem of how the first god came into existence. Logic
would dictate that God is eternal and uncreated. All religions that claim
otherwise would seem to be logically flawed.
BASIC RELIGEON CLAIM:
Since many religious claims contradict one another, it would seem that
not all religions could be simultaneously true. How can we tell which
religion(s) are true? If you examine the world religions, most describe
ethical and moral laws that are ascribed to God. Breaking of those laws
is an offense to God. How do different religions handle that problem?
Many religions say that if one tries to obey God's laws most of the time, God will accept you. However, I believe that we can eliminate
that idea as being true of the Creator God of the universe. God designed
physical laws of the universe. These laws are constant and
unbreakable. God Himself, seems to break those physical laws only
rarely. I propose that this God would not accept the breaking of His
moral laws so easily. In fact, from the nature of the physical laws, it would seem that God would not accept the breaking of His moral laws
at all. Nearly all religions claim that God will ignore our breaking of His
moral laws as long as we try our best. This is where Christianity differs
from all other world religions. Christianity says that our good works
cannot erase our bad moral choices. Think of it in terms of our legal
systems. We are convicted of crimes on the basis of breaking the law. If we break a law, we are found guilty under the law. It doesn't matter
what good things we have done in our lives, if we break the law. We
might get a lesser sentence, but we will still be convicted of a crime.
So, God cannot simply ignore our crimes against Him. We will be found
guilty, despite our good works. Christianity says that our bad deeds
(sins) must be eliminated in order to be acceptable to God. The elimination of sins was accomplished by the sacrifice of the Savior
(Jesus Christ). Jesus Christ is God Himself, who came to earth, led a sinless life, and died on the cross as a sacrifice to take the sins of
mankind. So, God Himself provided a means of eliminating our sins
against Him. However, the elimination of sins is not automatic. Since
God will allow people into His presence after death, they must agree to
His terms. This contract is executed through faith in the sacrifice of
Jesus Christ to eliminate our sins. By accepting God's terms, our sins are erased and we can stand in the presence of God without any sin. Only
our good deeds will be counted for our judgment. Those who don't
accept God's terms will be judged on the basis of God's laws - and will
be found guilty.
CHRISTIANITY IS DIFFERENT :
No other religion provides a provision for God's forgiveness of
sin, which is why I believe Christianity to be the only true way
to God. Jesus said He is the only way to God and that all people
must follow Him to enter heaven. All other religions are man's attempt to become acceptable to God. Only Christianity says
that God alone provides the only means to be acceptable to
Him. So, either Christianity is true and all other religions are false or
Christianity is false and God does not hold people accountable for law
breaking. Personally, I would not want to rely upon God ignoring His
own rules. It doesn't seem to be logical reasoning. This is the choice you must make.

CONCLUSION:
So, I encourage you to examine the world religions to see if what I am
saying is true. Don't give up on the ability to separate the truth claims
of the world's religions. If Christianity is true, you must make a choice
or you will be judged on the basis of your sins against God. Let me
know if you have any questions.