Maamin:


I will take that as a hypothesis and not real facts

On what grounds?

davien:
On what grounds?

On evidence of big bang

UyiIredia:


You say natural because its physical. This doesnt quite cut it. Using your logic, I could well use the term natural to describe artficial systems like computers. Lemme use the word unguided natural processes to qualify it better. Unguided natural processes such as storms, streams, sunlight. Basically the abiotic part of nature. These never make coded systems of any sort. Given many exotic organic chemicals in corpses left in places like deserts, forests or oceans, we don't see a smidgen of anything better arising. Living things can be classified as guided natural processes which run on rules coded in the DNA and abstract design principles.

What would "unguided" natural processes mean? Kindly use examples to illustrate.

Maamin:


On evidence of big bang

What prediction has the theory not been vindicated on?

davien:
What prediction has the theory not been vindicated on?

Ok now you are not sure is just a prediction,a theory you are not a practical witness to right?..

Can you tell us where the single extremely dense mass of matter that exploded(big bang) to form the universe came from?

Kay17:


Uyi Iredia,

Most of the people interviewed are simple folks. They are not equipped as you are, with the elaborate theological devices and philosophies you have. The existence of God must have been justified in the simplest possible manner - the purpose provider for their existence. For most of them, simple faith suffices. Regardless of the stretch between faith and facts.

Yes U're correct by saying those who believe in God sees their lives as meaningless without God. If a man believes that a Supreme Being (God) - whom he believes created him, holds the keys to his Life or Death, such a person will surely hold Him (God) as d centre of his existence and d real purpose & reason he still hold the breathe in his nostrils. After all, d idea behind creation is d@ d creator gives meaning to his creations/creatures. Every creator/ producer (such as inventors, fine artists, musicians etc) hold d right to d real meaning/purpose of their works. No matter how many different interpretations consumers give to a work, d producer will always claim ownership of its real meaning and intended use. To better appreciate a work of invention we will always have to refer to the producer for more insight or @ least his manual. Even when we use a product in ways other than one that is intended by the creator, we definitely return to him when we start having problems with d product. If d producer finds us guilty of misuse or damage from use we surely will get punished by paying 4 repairs or may have to change d product entirely 2 a new 1 if damaged beyond repairs. This is d foundation of d believe d@ dre's a God who created lives and who wants us to use our lives correctly. In the events d@ we fail to heed His instructions as contained in His manual for life (d bible), He will punish us accordingly as would any creator or producer.

Having said that, I observed a common theme from the arguments of those people who does not believe God exist: which is 1. There is no verifiable Facts to prove His existence - Faith is not enough to prove His existence. 2. Those people who believe in God are not in any way better than those who doesn't believe. Infact, according to theme, some of the former are d worst set of people d@ has ever graced d face of planet earth. I totally agree with these 2 point - it makes a lot of sense to me. It is a very big challenge 4 every1 - including me, who believes in God to prove d influence of God on our lives through our behaviours and not through mere words, theology or exposition of the bible. Jesus said: If you know these things happy are you if u do them. Knowledge is not enough. We must act accordingly. That is d only way we can prove we truly belong 2 him. Our actions must match our words. Our practice must match our teachings. That takes a lot of character, which is d 1st thing christ seeks do deal with in every man d@ submit. Man is synonymous with strong flesh and weak spirit/heart. Which is d foundation of selfishness and lack of Love. Evry1 who has encountered him according to d bible must show that he has dealt with d problem of his character or at least show signs of progress. He needs to own up where he lacks character by telling d truth - afterall he is still WIP. Telling d truth is one toughest demand of character as adviced in d bible.

Maamin:


Ok now you are not sure is just a prediction,a theory you are not a practical witness to right?..

Can you tell us where the single extremely dense mass of matter that exploded(big bang) to form the universe came from?

Besides the fact that the primordial universe at the singularity isn't a ball of extremely dense matter that "exploded".
Your question is invalid....
This is because no locations existed at such a time(space and time are prerequisites required to determine a "where" )....so asking me a "where" at a time before there were locations is invalid.
For mundane understanding it would be like asking me where north of the north pole is.
Can you give me a definition of your creationist kinds classification scheme?

Kay17:


What would "unguided" natural processes mean? Kindly use examples to illustrate.

I've given examples already. I have used the storms, streams and other abiotic aspects of nature eg sunlight & winds as examples of unguided natural processes because there's no system in place regulate their existence. When certain physical conditions are met they just happen. But in the case of ALL living things there are systems such signal transduction pathways which control how what a cell does and how a cell behaves in a specific context. You can NEVER see a similar thing in the abiotic part of nature hence the term unguided (or blind).

davien:
Besides the fact that the primordial universe at the singularity isn't a ball of extremely dense matter that "exploded".
Your question is invalid....
This is because no locations existed at such a time(space and time are prerequisites required to determine a "where" )....so asking me a "where" at a time before there were locations is invalid.
For mundane understanding it would be like asking me where north of the north pole is.
Can you give me a definition of your creationist kinds classification scheme?

No, you are misunderstanding me. Time and space came from thin air nowhere? I know a handful in astronomy and the celestial bodies..let me ask you at what point can nothingness be define or better yet describe when it comes to states of matter.

Maamin:


No, you are misunderstanding me. Time and space came from thin air nowhere? I know a handful in astronomy and the celestial bodies..let me ask you at what point can nothingness be define or better yet describe when it comes to states of matter.

I never claimed time and space came from "nothing"..but is an emergent property of inflation from the singularity(primordial universe).
if you do however are referring to astrophysicists definition of "nothing" then that would be a vacuum of which possess vacuum energy and is prone to quantum fluctuations..

HerexG:


I'm trying to tell you that the dinosaurs existed over 6000 years before the advent of man, did Genesis recorded that ?

It didn't record it, but it gave room for it. Read the link.....

[quote author=Harmony10 post=28450869]

Yes U're correct by saying those who believe in God sees their lives as meaningless without God. If a man believes that a Supreme Being (God) - whom he believes created him, holds the keys to his Life or Death, such a person will surely hold Him (God) as d centre of his existence and d real purpose & reason he still hold the breathe in his nostrils. After all, d idea behind creation is d@ d creator gives meaning to his creations/creatures. Every creator/ producer (such as inventors, fine artists, musicians etc) hold d right to d real meaning/purpose of their works. No matter how many different interpretations consumers give to a work, d producer will always claim ownership of its real meaning and intended use. To better appreciate a work of invention we will always have to refer to the producer for more insight or @ least his manual. Even when we use a product in ways other than one that is intended by the creator, we definitely return to him when we start having problems with d product. If d producer finds us guilty of misuse or damage from use we surely will get punished by paying 4 repairs or may have to change d product entirely 2 a new 1 if damaged beyond repairs. This is d foundation of d believe d@ dre's a God who created lives and who wants us to use our lives correctly. In the events d@ we fail to heed His instructions as contained in His manual for life (d bible), He will punish us accordingly as would any creator or producer.

Having said that, I observed a common theme from the arguments of those people who does not believe God exist: which is 1. There is no verifiable Facts to prove His existence - Faith is not enough to prove His existence. 2. Those people who believe in God are not in any way better than those who doesn't believe. Infact, according to theme, some of the former are d worst set of people d@ has ever graced d face of planet earth. I totally agree with these 2 point - it makes a lot of sense to me. It is a very big challenge 4 every1 - including me, who believes in God to prove d influence of God on our lives through our behaviours and not through mere words, theology or exposition of the bible. Jesus said: If you know these things happy are you if u do them. Knowledge is not enough. We must act accordingly. That is d only way we can prove we truly belong 2 him. Our actions must match our words. Our practice must match our teachings. That takes a lot of character, which is d 1st thing christ seeks do deal with in every man d@ submit. Man is synonymous with strong flesh and weak spirit/heart. Which is d foundation of selfishness and lack of Love. Evry1 who has encountered him according to d bible must show that he has dealt with d problem of his character or at least show signs of progress. He needs to own up where he lacks character by telling d truth - afterall he is still WIP. Telling d truth is one toughest demand of character as advised in d bible. And 2 b sympathetic d believers, dey definitely fear wh@ pple will - how much of scandal it will become if people know about our mistakes so to speak. Well we should understand we are humans and we live in an evil world. So just anybody - including believers can be overpowered if he let down is guards. Hence, lying, pretending or covering up our tracks will only serve to complicate an already bad situation. Hence, we should concern ourselves with is to uphold character as taught by Jesus (say the truth, seek mercies & forgiveness and ensure ur mind is made up not to repeat it again) rather than to salvage your already deflated ego & battered personality as a righteous & holy person. In d bible story of King David & King Saul showed 2 kings who offended God @ 1 point or d oda. One owned up 2 his character deficiencies and ask 4 mercy, d oda gave excuses upon excuses & was neva able 2 rciv 4giveness. Saul never asked 4 4giveness and neva rcivd 1. The essence of this long story is that believer should pay attention to doing teachings of Jesus. Even when we do act wrongly due deficiency in character, stick to Truth and to d right thing to do - Tell all d Truth you know about d situation. Then pray to God d@ he helps u escape d punishment or @ best makes it bearable for u.

Hence, d real proof any man is a believer of God or has encountered him is how much of his teachings he put use. That one individual is called a very high religious name, or d@ he knows and has learn so much about d belief doesn't qualify d@ person as a follower/believer or disciple of the belief. Even if he has so many followers, even if he is doing a lot of wonders and is very influential and convincing with his views. He will stil not qualify as a believer. According, Jesus the only thing that qualify you is your FRUITS - i.e Character, Obedience and Truth. How much ur words tallies with d Fundamentals of beliefs which you must back up with actions. Is not today d@ people profess to b believers/priests but has not good FRUITS/Result to show. Jesus warned pple in Matt 7: 15-21. He said false prophets/priest/ believers will always rise up. We should take note of everyone that call himself a prophet or a believers - they may have so many things in common with d genuine people: knowledge, dress code even miracles like d real people. But one thing they will never be able to replicate is Character/Fruits of believers - the beginning of which is Love, then Truth, Justice, Hope, Selflessness, Peace, Virtues (Sound moral Values), Tolerance, Courage, Mercy & Kindness etc. If we fail to be guided by Love in acting, we must not fail to tell Truth and quickly retrace our step back to d beginning Love. If the these two demands - Love & Truth, have been violated & somebody's rights has been infringed upon then Justice must b done. These are first three character/Fruits of believers. Jesus said by this d world will know you are my disciple if you Love one another not if you know d bible very well or if u show d@ u re superior 2 oda people from another belief system.

So my duty is to Love and Tolerate everybody and his belief system. The truth is no man can change his belief system simply because I told him or preach to him to change. Belief system are so strong no reasonable arguments or logical reasoning can change any man from his belief system. No man can argue me out christianity - 'cos mo ti giran gan sinu e', i.e 'cos I have gone far in it. Likewise I don't expect any1 to change easily from one belief system to anoda. Regardless of how desperately I desire d@ oda pple bcome open to my belief system, I can't fight them or argue them in2 it. I can only show Love & Tolerance to all & pray earnestly for them 2 come & experience d Love, Joy, Peace, Freedom/Liberty, high ideals etc that my belief has got 2 offer. The best effort I can make is to influence any1 from d standard point of friendship. Jesus lived for Love & Friendship. Regardless of who any1 was or wh@ he believed in Jesus Loved sincerely and was a true Friend. He was often rebuked by d religious leaders of his time 4 sitting in d midst of & eating with sinners - prostitutes, corrupt pple, theives and so on. The point is does he approve of their vices - not @ all. Common sense tells us d@ a man will always go to d market where is product is needed. Jesus purpose is to save sinners hence he must sit with them to understand their mentality. Christians need to tolerate other people's belief system. That is d only chance we have @ bringing anybdy to our faith - Love, Friendship & Mercies of God. Proving d existence of God is useless. We don't have all facts to back it up. People will always find pitfalls in our arguments. There is a method no body can ever argue with Love, Tolerance and Friendship. You can never fault it.

I prayer God will help all of us - both believers and not believers. May we make the most of our lives here on earth IJN. Bless You. I Love You ALL!!!!

voodoo85:


:DDD it says everywhere that earth is billions and billions years old (4,5 to be exact) facts shows that (fossils, radiometric dating, meteorite materials etc). so am curious why bible, as u say, don't say exact creation time?

I was discussing with Moses yesterday, I rebuked him for not telling us how many years the earth was when writing the bible, he told me he wanted to conserve his ink because it cost a lot at the time he was writing the bible.

all4naija:

What are you saying? I have no idea of what you are talking about.

If God did not create the universe, explain the existence of magic.

synergycom19:
"THE FOOL SAID IN HIS HEART THERE IS NO GOD",if they don't believe in God,why haven't they commit suicide,when faced with chalkenges? Because God puts the fear of death in them

Anyone that says to a brethren "you fool" is in danger of hell

UyiIredia:


I've given examples already. I have used the storms, streams and other abiotic aspects of nature eg sunlight & winds as examples of unguided natural processes because there's no system in place regulate their existence. When certain physical conditions are met they just happen. But in the case of ALL living things there are systems such signal transduction pathways which control how what a cell does and how a cell behaves in a specific context. You can NEVER see a similar thing in the abiotic part of nature hence the term unguided (or blind).

And what are guided natural processes, please equally demonstrate with illustrations.

Emmalot121:
It didn't record it, but it gave room for it. Read the link.....

There are no facts in the link you shared, they are just speculations, give me the exact chapter let's buttress it here

Emmalot121:
I was discussing with Moses yesterday, I rebuked him for not telling us how many years the earth was when writing the bible, he told me he wanted to conserve his ink because it cost a lot at the time he was writing the bible.

he is cheap man

synergycom19:
"THE FOOL SAID IN HIS HEART THERE IS NO GOD",if they don't believe in God,why haven't they commit suicide,when faced with chalkenges? Because God puts the fear of death in them

actually :DDD check the statistics on suicide in the world. so... yeah... they do kill them selves and when they come to that psychological stage to take their life, i don't think they give a fuccck is there god or not! talking shitt!

voodoo85:


actually :DDD check the statistics on suicide in the world. so... yeah... they do kill them selves and when they come to that psychological stage to take their life, i don't think they give a fuccck is there god or not! talking shitt!

those that commit suicide do that for a course... to meet their bloody virgins given to them from god(that they believe in). so what's your point?

Harmony10:


Yes U're correct by saying those who believe in God sees their lives as meaningless without God. If a man believes that a Supreme Being (God) - whom he believes created him, holds the keys to his Life or Death, such a person will surely hold Him (God) as d centre of his existence and d real purpose & reason he still hold the breathe in his nostrils. After all, d idea behind creation is d@ d creator gives meaning to his creations/creatures. Every creator/ producer (such as inventors, fine artists, musicians etc) hold d right to d real meaning/purpose of their works. No matter how many different interpretations consumers give to a work, d producer will always claim ownership of its real meaning and intended use. To better appreciate a work of invention we will always have to refer to the producer for more insight or @ least his manual. Even when we use a product in ways other than one that is intended by the creator, we definitely return to him when we start having problems with d product. If d producer finds us guilty of misuse or damage from use we surely will get punished by paying 4 repairs or may have to change d product entirely 2 a new 1 if damaged beyond repairs. This is d foundation of d believe d@ dre's a God who created lives and who wants us to use our lives correctly. In the events d@ we fail to heed His instructions as contained in His manual for life (d bible), He will punish us accordingly as would any creator or producer.

Having said that, I observed a common theme from the arguments of those people who does not believe God exist: which is 1. There is no verifiable Facts to prove His existence - Faith is not enough to prove His existence. 2. Those people who believe in God are not in any way better than those who doesn't believe. Infact, according to theme, some of the former are d worst set of people d@ has ever graced d face of planet earth. I totally agree with these 2 point - it makes a lot of sense to me. It is a very big challenge 4 every1 - including me, who believes in God to prove d influence of God on our lives through our behaviours and not through mere words, theology or exposition of the bible. Jesus said: If you know these things happy are you if u do them. Knowledge is not enough. We must act accordingly. That is d only way we can prove we truly belong 2 him. Our actions must match our words. Our practice must match our teachings. That takes a lot of character, which is d 1st thing christ seeks do deal with in every man d@ submit. Man is synonymous with strong flesh and weak spirit/heart. Which is d foundation of selfishness and lack of Love. Evry1 who has encountered him according to d bible must show that he has dealt with d problem of his character or at least show signs of progress. He needs to own up where he lacks character by telling d truth - afterall he is still WIP. Telling d truth is one toughest demand of character as adviced in d bible.

I can't read well, please help me.

Kay17:


And what are guided natural processes, please equally demonstrate with illustrations.

The physiological processes in all living things are guided natural processes.

Maamin:


No, you are misunderstanding me. Time and space came from thin air nowhere? I know a handful in astronomy and the celestial bodies..let me ask you at what point can nothingness be define or better yet describe when it comes to states of matter.

please read Stephen Hawking. i beg you. plus with cern and other coming technology its jst a question of time to figure out rest of the questions about earth

shadowgwalker:
those that commit suicide do that for a course... to meet their bloody virgins given to them from god(that they believe in). so what's your point?

i knew u r fuccking al qaeda. people look at her profile. u must be very stupidd. people killing themselves everyday not because of the islamist nonsense. those who kills themselves for meeting virgins r maybe jst 2% of all suicidal rates mumu . please don't comment nonsense anymore

shadowgwalker:
those that commit suicide do that for a course... to meet their bloody virgins given to them from god(that they believe in). so what's your point?

oh i can't believe how stupiddd u r. every 40 seconds 1 person commits suicide. so u r telling me they r all islamists?

UyiIredia:


The physiological processes in all living things are guided natural processes.

excluding that please.

davien:
I never claimed time and space came from "nothing"..but is an emergent property of inflation from the singularity(primordial universe).
if you do however are referring to astrophysicists definition of "nothing" then that would be a vacuum of which possess vacuum energy and is prone to quantum fluctuations..

My network is very bad this night. Pls! Bare with me

You must be able to give a clear account of a primordial universe. A skyscraper does not appear out of the blue going by scientific logic.

No! A vacuum is void of any form of matter..how then do you arrive at it being prone to quantum fluctuations ? Remember a quantum is the smallest quantity of energy and energy can be measured even as weak as a photon.

And you've not really giving me something meaningful about a matter states of nothingness. even Isolation from the outside world still implies containment of that entity within something.

A primordial universe still possess space and time period..according to your logic space and time was the result of big bang..how then you are telling me space and time is a prerequisite of location..if this merely came to be during the explosion?

A primordial universe must be somewhere in time..and yes a north of the north pole is possible..that is why we have something call True North in a celestial sphere

Have you heard of the fourth dimension? May be you should start from there.

voodoo85:


please read Stephen Hawking. i beg you. plus with cern and other coming technology its jst a question of time to figure out rest of the questions about earth

O my dear voodoo85, I got it all figured out by the grace of God..is you and Davien am worried about..

armadeo:



Chy22 and blym4real too.

To think that these views are top of the head arguments show that people still seek knowledge.

At least they have stated their points devoid of emotion and on a logical plane. I have found this thread completely enlightening and would bookmark it for further studies.

Kudos to both sides of the divide.

True,true.

Maamin:


O my dear voodoo85, I got it all figured out by the grace of God..is you and Davien am worried about..

darling i can read and see properly so theres no need to high light my nickname. well good for u nobody ever asked u to be worried about us.

Maamin:


O my dear voodoo85, I got it all figured out by the grace of God..is you and Davien am worried about..

please unfollow me. u don't belong there

[quote author=Harmony10 post=28453676][/quote]

your post is so long tht wen i quoted it, i vanished from my phone screen? Bros, learn how to summarise.