₦airaland Forum

OLAADEGBU:
Questions and Answers.

PastorAIO:
Please let us not forget the main thrust of threads by Olaadegbu, which are mainly started to demonstrate that the bible is some kind of infallible foundation for christianity and it is complete in itself.

Whether or not the Book of Enoch is God inspired, God breathed, God sneezed, or God farted, The fact is that Jude quotes the prophet Enoch from a source that is extra biblical.

It is obvious therefore that the early christians drew from other sources than those books we find in the bible.

Q.E.D

dolphinheart:
Sir, explain the verses I quoted to me to prove me wrong .

PastorAIO:
Please let us not forget the main thrust of threads by Olaadegbu, which are mainly started to demonstrate that the bible is some kind of infallible foundation for christianity and it is complete in itself.

PastorAIO:
Whether or not the Book of Enoch is God inspired, God breathed, God sneezed, or God farted, The fact is that Jude quotes the prophet Enoch from a source that is extra biblical.

PastorAIO:
It is obvious therefore that the early christians drew from other sources than those books we find in the bible.

Q.E.D

joseph1832:
How right you are. I have even shown the OP olaadegbu one of such books, that is the book of Tobias. I still have some books that are not in this current Bible.

OLAADEGBU:
You don't have to join issues. Only the inspired word of God is right. Check the thread below to see what category the book of Tobit and the likes belong.==> https://www.nairaland.com/2036788/what-apocrypha-deuterocanonical-books

joseph1832:
How well you know how to contradict issues. Was it the nation of Israel that translated the Bible from Aramaic to English?. Who translated all the versions of Bible we have today?.

The Book of Tobias I showed you was part of a version of the Bible: Nox version. So what on Earth are you saying.

OLAADEGBU:
The book of Tobit that you call Tobias is what is called apocrypha, it is not the inspired Word of God. Read up on it in the thread I suggested.

dolphinheart:
Sir, I can now see why some say they dnt Iike or want to discuss with you, as you dnt discuss with people but tend to dish out ur own opinion without explaining/looking into on what the other person says. When u post ur beliefs and back them up with with bible statements, others look at what you said in relation to the scriptures you quoted and come back to explain to you their understanding of what you said, the scriptures u quoted, and also add other scriptures to prove to you that ur understanding is wrong.
That is exactly what I did, I looked up the scriptures u posted, explained where u where wrong , then added other scriptures to buttress my point . But u dnt do that , you wave/ dismiss / put aside/refuse to explain ur understanding of scriptural evidence shown to you that you dnt like or can't explain and hold on tightly to verses that you think explain ur point.
This method does not encourage discussion.

I gave you numerous evidences and scriptures and u did not explain any.

Ill try one more time to explain to you from the scriptures , citing the scriptures u quoted and more from me to explain to you that enoch and elijah did not go to heaven .
Pls if you want to argue my points, pls explain first of all ur understanding of the scriptures i sited .


Enoch did not go to heaven.
To start my explanation , let's first look at the definition of this two words that might have caused some confusion. The definition of the words helps in the understand of what the scripture is saying.

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an organism.
(death is being described as an act, a process. Unless otherwise assisted, that process is always very unpleasant, mostly painful)

Die/ died: to cease to live; undergo the complete and permanent cessation of all vital functions; become dead.

(die/died is the end result of the process of death)

So now what did not happen to enoch.

Genesis 5:24:
King James Bible
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
Enoch walked with God; then he was not there because God took him.
NET Bible
Enoch walked with God, and then he disappeared because God took him away.

Here the verse did not state where God
took him, how God took him and it what
form God took him .so I wonder why you use that verse to say God took him to heaven .

Why was he taken away?.

The book of genesis indicate that the corruption introduced by Satan in the garden of Eden quickly led to the spread of wickedness among Adam’s descendants. In such a world, Enoch was a prophet of Jehovah whose powerful inspired words resonate even today. ( Jude 14, 15) we can be sure that even in Enoch’s day, there were many “ungodly sinners” who heard Enoch’s prophecy with annoyance. How loving that God took the prophet out of their reach

What happened to him?
heb 11:5
:By faith E′noch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before he was transferred he received the witness that he had pleased God well.

Like in the book of genesis, Here again it was not stated where enoch went to , talk less of stating the third heaven .

A better understanding of what might
have happened to enoch can be analyzed in verse 13 of Hebrews chapter 11 . The verse made mention of the summary of what happened to all those who had faith in God, who had been mentioned earlier in the chapter.

King James Bible
These ALL died in faith, NOT having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
These all died in faith without having received the promises, but they saw them from a distance, greeted them, and confessed that they were foreigners and temporary residents on the earth.

International Standard Version
All these people died having faith. They did not receive the things that were promised, yet they saw them in the distant FUTURE and welcomed them, acknowledging that they were strangers
and foreigners on earth.

Here we can deduce some facts
1. All those that paul mentioned(enoch inclusive) died. Enoch was not excluded in these verse .
2. Enoch did not receive the promise
( meaning enoch did not ascend to
heaven ) but saw it in a distant future!, enoch was not ressurected .
Enoch did not go to heaven, not before jesus ascention anyway.
Jesus was the first one to ascend to heaven. ( John 3:13; Hebrews 6:19, 20) Enoch’s being
“transferred so as not to see death” may mean that God put him in a prophetic trance and then terminated his life (died)while he was in that state. Under such circumstances, Enoch did not suffer, or “see death,” at the hands of his enemies.(he did not go through the act or process of death )

Jesus plainly stated: “No man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven,
the Son of man.” Jesus was the “forerunner”
of all who ascend to heaven.— John 3:13; Hebrews 6:19, 20..


Enoch lived 365 years—not nearly as long as most of his contemporaries. But the important thing for lovers of Jehovah is that they serve him faithfully to the end of their days. We know that Enoch did that because “before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God well.” The Scriptures do not disclose how Jehovah communicated this to Enoch. Nevertheless, before Enoch died, he was given assurance of God’s approval, and we can be certain that Jehovah will remember him in the resurrection.(a future event/promise



Did elijah go to the dwelling place of God.?

2 Kings 2:11
King James Bible
And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

By the end of my explanation we will be able to know if elijah did go to Gods dwelling place.
At 2 Kings 2:11, 12 the prophet Elijah is
described as “ascending in the windstorm to the heavens.” The heavens here referred to are the
atmospheric heavens in which windstorms occur, not the spiritual heavens of God’s
presence. Elijah did not die(undergo any transition ) at the time of such ascension, but he continued to live for a number of years after his heavenly transportation away from his successor Elisha.
A number of years after his ascension in the windstorm Elijah is still alive and active as a prophet, this time to the king of Judah. Because of the wicked course taken by King Jehoram of Judah, Elijah writes him a letter expressing Jehovah’s condemnation, which is fulfilled shortly thereafter.

2Ch 21:12-15;
Eventually a written message came to
him from E·li′jah the prophet, saying.............

Nor did Elijah upon death ascend to the spiritual heavens, since Jesus, while on earth, clearly stated that “no man has ascended into heaven (the dwelling place of God)
Joh 3:13;
.
King James 2000 Bible
And no man has ascended up to heaven,
but he that came down from heaven,
even the Son of man who is in heaven.

At Pentecost, Peter likewise said ofDavid that
he “did not ascend to theheavens.” ( Acts 2:34)

King James Bible
For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my righthand.

In reality, there is nothing in the Scriptures to show that a heavenly hope was held out to God’s servants prior to the coming of Christ Jesus.(why would jesus need to come and die for our sins when we already could go to heaven and have evalasting life?)
Such hope first appears in Jesus’ expressions to his disciples ( Mt 19:21, 23-28; Lu 12:32; Joh
14:2, 3) and was fully comprehended by them only after Pentecost of 33 C.E.—Ac 1:6-8; 2:1-4, 29-36; Ro 8:16, 17.
The Scriptures show that Christ Jesus was the first one to ascend from earth to the heavens of God’s presence.
1Co 15:20;

International Standard Version
But at this moment the Messiah stands risen from the dead, the first one offered in the harvest of those who have died.
(this includes enoch,elijah And the faithfull ones)

Heb 9:24
King James Bible
For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
By such ascension and his presentation of his ransom sacrifice there, he ‘opened the way’ for those who would follow.
Those that will go to heaven must bear the image of the heavenly one, ChristJesus, in order to ascend to the heavens of the spirit plane, for “flesh and blood” cannot inherit that heavenly Kingdom.—
1Co 15:42-50..


(1 Thess. 4:16-17; 1 Cor.15:51-54; Phil.3:20-21).

These scriptures helps us to understand the ressurection process of those who will rule with jesus in heaven .here ,unlike in enoch's case, where the ressurected ones are going is mentioned.
Even if these could also happen to enoch and elijah,it did not happen at their death cus because paul said such hope for them whigh they had faith in was far off(in the future), as at enoch's and Elijah's death, the rsmsom sacrifice has not yet Been presented to God in heaven to enable man go to heaven.



So we see, from the bible , the word of
God , that elijah or enoch did not ascend
to the dwelling place God.

joseph1832:
Is that so? So who says which book of the Bible is the inspired word of God and who says which is not, God or man?.

Mind you I didn't call the book of Tobias its current name.

dolphinheart:
@OLADEEGBU
This is the post where I quoted the scriptures you posted, explained what it meant, and surported my explanation with other scriptures . If you dnt agree with me, then explain ur view on all the scriptures I quoted.

OLAADEGBU:
If you see a sheep will you call it a goat? The Word of God is not the word of man or of devils, it is the divine inspired Word of God and is of supernatural origin.

OLAADEGBU:
What was my last response to your objections?

dolphinheart:
Like I said before, ill say it again , because the scriptures does not contradict itself and because scripture explain scripture, I quoted and explained all the scriptures u quoted to back up ur view on elijah and enoch being in heaven . I went on to explain to you that you were wrong using both the scriptures u quoted and additional ones from the bible .

If you feel that elijah and enoch went to heaven, then explain to us ur view on the additional scriptures I quoted by quoting it and explaining what it means , and the questions I asked.

PastorKun:
When Jesus was ascending, did he promise us a completed book(bible) or the holy spirit for guidance?

OLAADEGBU:
Where is Elijah now? That will give you a clue to the answer to your question.

dolphinheart:
Like always, twisting and changing direction when you can answer or explain .
Tell us what u understand by all the scriptures I quoted if u believe they went to heaven with their physical bodies

OLAADEGBU:
What's the point of winning an argument when I know that your soul needs to be saved?

OLAADEGBU:
What's the point of winning an argument when I know that your soul needs to be saved?

rabzy:
It is wrong to assume that because Jude quoted a prophesy said by Enoch, then it must have been written in a book. Jude Quoted a prophesy said by enoch, that does not mean the prophesy was in book. They are statements and utterances made by Enoch which were passed down and known to the Jews.

PastorAIO:
Do you support the belief in an oral tradition that was passed down amongst the jews and held scriptural authority?

rabzy:
I know there are several oral traditions and even historical documents passed down in the Jewish system. Many of the statements and happenings are correct and true, but don't believe they have scriptural authority if they are not in the scriptures.

So they may be true and factual and even support some scriptural believes or incidence in the bible but they don't have scriptural authority if they are not in the scriptures.

PastorAIO:
So you don't believe that the prophecies of Enoch had scriptural authority.

rabzy:
For me what authenticates Enoch's prophesy is the one i see in the scriptures, if its not in the scriptures then it might be true he said it, i may even believe he said it if the statements accredited to him is in line with what i know from the scriptures but it wont still have scriptural authority because those exact statements are not in the scriptures.

PastorAIO:
Okay, but you believe that the part quoted has scriptural authority because it is in the bible. Before it was quoted in the bible, did it have scriptural authority, or is it only when it became quoted in the bible that it had scriptural authority?

When Paul quotes the greek prophet Epimenides, did that give Epimenides' words scriptural authority?

Before the bible was canonized and the gospel of Matthew was included in it, Did Matthew's gospel have scriptural authority?

rabzy:
Enoch prophesied to the early ungodly men, those people knew him, they are the ones that can choose to believe him or not, his prophesies were definitely well known then, but a lot didnt believe him. When Noah came he preached the same message, he got the same reception. These men were inspired by God to do what they did, but we would not have known or come to believe them if it was not recorded by other men of God in the scriptures.

Moses inspired books revealed Noah and Enoch to us and they became confirmed and inspired prophets. If i was there when these prophets were alive and i see evidence of God's backing in them, then I could choose to believe or not, but since i was not, then the only authority on which i will accept that they were God's prophet is their confirmation by the scriptures

Jude later mentioned specific statements of Enoch, whether he got it from Jewish oral tradition or God specially revealed it to him i don't know, but the moment he mentioned it in his book, then it becomes confirmed to me.

Paul himself mentioned the context at which he quoted the poet, he used the poet's words to buttress a point to those who believed and respected the poet. I have never read the poet's book nor know if he exists, the scriptural authority i have from this is that; the poet really lived and he said those words Paul quoted.

The moment matthew was commissioned to write his gospel, it is already a scripture. it is already being used by the christian community as an inspired scripture with full authority.

Canonization is the collation of all genuine inspired books and rejection of spurious ones.

PastorAIO:
But you don't know the men who wrote the scriptures either. You don't, apparently, need to know the prophet before you can choose to believe him or not. If only those who were alive during the time of Enoch can choose to believe him or not, then only those who were around when the bible was been written can choose to believe it or not.

Besides, you are wrong when you say it is only through the scriptures (by which I believe you mean the bible) that you can know what Enoch taught. The Book of Enoch is there too.


But The prophesies of Enoch were contained in the book of Enoch. and it wasn't just for the men of his time because his prophecies were still being quoted by the time of Jude.

Like I said it may have been passed down through family oral tradition or revealed to Jude...

What is/are the evidence/s of God's backing in them that you would see? Miracles? Not necessarily.



What about if he got it from the book of Enoch? Book of enoch was already in existence and people knew it, why would God then specially reveal something to him when the revelation already exists in a popular book.

And if he got it from Jewish Oral tradition then I have to ask you whether you believe that Jewish Oral tradition has scriptural Authority.


Does epimenides' words have scriptural authority? it is a very simple question. What about for those who believed and respected the poet, Did it have scriptural authority for them? They were christians, remember.

What do you mean? Before Matthew even wrote it? It had scriptural authority before he even wrote it? It was already being used by the christian community before he even wrote it?

I didn't ask you this.

The Book of Enoch is quoted in the New Testament ... so why isn't it in the Bible?

Wes Huff explains: "The book doesn't have to be inspired to be useful."

The Church Fathers determined that it wasn't divinely inspired. But that doesn't mean it is entirely worthless. https://t.co/hGnZyDH5fy pic.twitter.com/AEF5xmHpeb

— The Conservative Alternative (@OldeWorldOrder) April 19, 2026

rabzy:
2. The book of Enoch is not an authority for my beliefs. If you have reasons to believe it as inspired and everything there as truth, well that is your personal conviction. I am not convinced to believe it.

3. I think everything on this discussion centres on the book of Enoch, Maybe you should let me know why you believe in it.