₦airaland Forum

paxonel:
if you are asked are you saved? i am sure your answer will be yes, you are saved.
why is the question not always like this.
are you going to be saved.
since you think heaven is in the future?
why will oyedepo of winners chapel will say heaven on earth?
don't you think heaven is on earth already?
that heaven is in you.?
think

FrancisTony:
Many people who are not saved but they ignorantly and cunningly answer they are saved.
Why the question is asked in that context is because I've to be saved to make the kingdom of heaven. I know that heaven is already existing but we must work for it...

So, Oyedopo is now your God? Heaven on Earth? You or him should provide a biblical verse to support it before I agree it's not a blasphemy.

myproperty:
Your notion is not what the scripture says. Heaven is definitely in the future and that is why after every sermon the pastor Oyedepo you quoted would ask questions like this: if you know that if the trumpet should sound now you would not make heaven please come out now and accept Christ as your personal Saviour and repent, confess your sin and ask for forgiveness.

The question are you saved means if the trumpet sounds now would you make heaven? If heaven is on earth already then there would be no need for the scripture to talk about the second coming of Christ and there would be no need for repentance and forgiveness of sin and there would be no need for judgement day.

FrancisTony:
I'm not judging them. Rather, I'm countering your post.

Everyone would be judged according to their deeds - Roman 2:6

myproperty:
What you are labouring to tell me is that not everyone is the same thing as not all Jesus Disciples and that The Kingdom of God is the same thing as Christianity? Oh what an interpretation?

Don't forget that you said by believing in Christ alone you are already saved. Are you also trying to tell me that Judas and John the Baptist did not believe in Christ?

Yes we are always judged at our death. But you said we are already in heaven, which I said no until after judgement, Now those people that are judged to life are going to where since non-christians are going to lake of fire?

When was the separation done? can you show me scripturally or are you assuming it? As this statement also taken place? Matthew 16:27
For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.

FrancisTony:
Stop twisting bible to suit your heresy - Jesus was talking about baptism being prerequisite for making heaven not the sole requirement.

I laughed when you cited a dictionary to define your meaning of a believer when Bible and Dictionary aren't the same.

Anyways, this another plain bible verse because you have been twisting your own to suit you....

Matthew 7:21

Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my father.

paxonel:
the African doctrines the missionaries brought need changes, it wasnt based on reasoning, therefore it need change or africans remain in perpetual bondage.
what africans refuses to see is
john6:29, Jesus answered and said unto
them, This is the work of God(the
definite article there is THE WORK,
that means, there is only one work to
do ), that ye believe on him whom he
hath sent.(that's all ).
so, all we need to do is believe only.
go back to your Bible and look at it again.
Paul confirmed this in
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds(works ) of the law.
the law is the 10 commandments, thou shall not kill, thou shall not lie etc
and James says if you break one of these laws you have break it all.
so, there is no way we can be righteous on our own, don't try to be fanatic.
for this reason Christ came to die so that we can be freely justified.
you are telling me i am saying heresy.
this is the same thing Paul said and the they slanderlously say he was saying heresy,teaching people to go and commit sin , just like you doing now to me.
Romans 3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
please we are not encouraging people to break the law and commit sin.
we are saying that, now that you know you are freely justified, use your conscience to abstain from sin.
don't wait for any law to guide you.
if we go and commit sin, then we will suffer the consequence like anyone else here on earth.
faith without work is dead (dead in that we will suffer the consequence of our sin, not that we will loose our salvation which was given to us freely ),
God is not human that will give gift to people and later take it back from them.
it takes logical reasoning to understand this thing

paxonel:
you see, this is one of the reason i came up with this tread.
how can man see in the scripture heaven on earth (for him to come up with this theme, that means he must have seen something like this in the Scripture ) at the same time begin to ask church members questions like if you want to make heaven in the future when the trumpet shall sound?( making heaven on earth null and void )
is that not contradiction?
it's true that the Scripture talked about the coming of Christ, But like i said Christ has been coming to judge men everyday.
people die everyday, it is appointed once for men to die, after that judgement.
as for sound of the trumpet, quote the place out in the Scripture let's see.
i am not saying there is no sound of the trumpet in the Scripture,
just show were it is written.
i will tell you that white men who brought Christianity to Africa are not mumu like us
lol.
you see this country called Nigeria, na God go judge this country

paxonel:
that's true!
everyone will be judged according to. their deeds.. Revelation 20:12 says And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
note: that it was the dead that were judged. that means, each time we die ( the coming of Jesus ), Jesus will come and carry out this for everybody.
also, note that two different category of books were opened.
1. the books that contain the deeds of everybody when they were alive on earth, where in they were judged according to their works.
2. the book of life ( the book that contain the names of all christians simply because they believe only, not by their works )
20:15 says, And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire( the second death which is the real death, the first death is just sleep ).
meaning, those whose names found in the book of life will resurect and come back to life, this time with a different body, see 1cor 15:35 down. where you see that God created different kind of body, both therestial and cosmos bodies.
and he give to people body according to his will
1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
resurrection of the death here on earth is real.
eternal life is real.
this trend has been going on and on since 2000 years ago since Christ resurrected. you people don't know.
you will die and resurrected and die and resurrected and die and resurrected ( the concept of aboundant life )..
you don't know what Christ did for you when he resurrected.
Na God go judge una pastors for not telling you people the truth. yet they are collecting money from you people every Sunday.
you people read Bible you don't see
lol.

Iceflox:
people wait for the law to catch up with them, before they develop conscience to do the right thing, especially nigerians.
in the UK nigerians are the most law abiding people because they don't want to be repatriated. But in nigeria, they are lawless people, because nobody is enforcing the law

Hildalicious:
so, how did you come up with all these?
you sit-down one and day and start reading bible?
or do you have a pastor?

myproperty:
We are not yet living in heaven as you claim.

Biblical Descriptions of Heaven

There is a constant chant of holy angels that are continually proclaiming Holy, Holy, Holy over the throne of God. The Mercy Seat in heaven where God sits is surrounded by magnificent angels full of glory and power that proclaim and bless the holy name of God without ceasing. Some of these are described as beasts, full of eyes, with six wings and neither rest day or night in their proclaiming the holiness of God (Rev. 4:8-11).

Heaven Descends to the Earth
The Kingdom of Heaven begins on earth, after Christ’s return, the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven and heaven, in the New Jerusalem, will then be on earth. Revelation 21:1-2 describes this: “Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.” The very tabernacle of God will be with humans then and heaven is any place where God is (Rev. 21:3). All pain, suffering, and tears will absent there (Rev. 21:4).

John was carried away to heaven in Revelation chapter 21 and this chapter is perhaps the best description of heaven that we know of; at least the heaven that will be seen by those who are Christ’s today. John describes it in Revelation 21:10-27:

These clearly shows that heaven is in the future. The future is when you die and face judgement or when you are alive and experience the end of time.

paxonel:
it's is not one day o,
it took me almost seven months to do the research.
i wasn't satisfied with what pastors were teaching
i have to read the whole new testament from Matthew to revelation repeatedly, almost 13 times, before i could come up with something.
what actually opened my eyes was when i went through Romans 10:1 where Paul said i wish that Israel should be saved, pointing that salvation is all about the religion.
from that time i started reading it from Matthew again as if i have never read new testament in my life before. it was like i was playing puzzle. i was picking the pieces of the tiles logically and meticulously.
that was how i finally understood everything.

Hildalicious:
i don't know exactly what to say.
to say the truth, i am not seeing any lie in all that you have said. i have started seeing it from the angle you are seeing it, but i can't boldly speak it out like you are doing.
Because, they are not aligned with the established teachings, that rapture is coming.
that's why people say it is heresy

paxonel:
thank God you now know that heaven has descended on earth.
i know that people know this truth deep right inside them, But they just want to argue because the truth is contradicting the lie of rapture they have been hearing in church.
they don't want to see their pastors as liars but in the true sense, they are.
there is never a place in revelation that tells us that all the things written there will happen in our future.
is there anything like that?
please show me.
on the contrary, it says it will shortly come to pass, Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things WHICH MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS...
meaning, it will shortly happen in that generation the revelation was revealed to John of that generation, who wrote it immediately.
you people don't consider time when you read bible
so, i put it to you that everything about the revelation has been fulfilled.
don't go and start enjoying your lives and stop putting yourselves in unnecessary boundage of fear

Hildalicious:
the reason is that, we have pastors who are guiding us, were are not suppose to question them.
who gives you such boldness?
they know everything more than us

paxonel:
you ask very intelligent question,
i like you.
see, that very day Jesus was prophesying.
what he was saying was a prophesy that was already written about him and what will happen during the period when the Messiah will be crucified.
the prophesy must have said, this is what will happen IN THOSE DAYS when the Messiah will come.
as Jesus was talking, it's like, he was directly quoting the prophesy that IN THOSE DAYS (that is, in this generation ) And the people of that generation were listening, they didn't know that he was that Messiah that is to come.
so, he was prophesying what will happen, meanwhile, the fulfilment of the prophesy was happening right there in their eyes, they didn't know.
apart from the persecution of christians which happened after the resurrection,
all the rumors of wars, earthquake, deceptions, crucifixion, great tribulation, one taken, the other left behind ( what is confusing modern day christians that they are saying it is rapture) was happening right there in that generation Christ came to die.
after telling them everything, he said.
Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
so, everything happened in that generation. not in the future.
it was after the resurrection that Christ open their eyes to see all these things, that it just happened.