Like any other controversial issue among Muslims, this topic is no exception in contrasting views. In fact, some group of Muslim believed its essential part of Tawheed in which if one do not have the right believe of it, the person is Kafir even if he prays.

In this regard, there are two responses to this fundamental question.
One group in Islam believed Allah, the Most High, resides in the Heavens, above the seventh heaven, sitting on a throne (Arsh) or chair (kursi).

* Their strongest evidence is several ayah in the Quran which says: The Most beneficent (Lord) established on the Throne {for example surah Taha: 5}.

* A hadith in Sahih al-Bukhari which has it that Prophet (salallahu alaih wa ahli) once asked a slave girl "where's Allah", after the later sworn by Him. The slave said "He is in the heaven". It is believed that Prophet's silence means the correctness of this assertion. Furthermore, Sahih Bukhari equally documents in another hadith narrated by Abu hurayrah that Allah used to move from the seventh heaven to the lowest heaven in the later part of the night to hear the prayer of his servants when they call upon Him.

Part of the beliefs about Allah, of this group of Muslim, is that Allah has a body with specified hands, fingers, legs and face. Again they argued about several ayah in the Quran which talk about "hands of Allah", "His face" etc. While certain ahadith talked about "His legs", "His fingers" etc. This ahadith are abound in Sahih Bukhari. All of these "attributes" are believed to be literal in meaning.


Second group disagree with the above assertion and argued that "Allah is present everywhere but never in a physical presence like His creations; and does not occupy a space or have a literal hands, face or leg not to mention of a definite body."
...there is no secret confidence of three but He is their fourth, nor of five but He is their sixth, nor of less than that or more but He is with them wheresoever they may be... {Surah mujadala: 7}

When the Prophet hides in the cave together with his companion, Abu Bakr, when being pursued by the enemies, the later displayed certain grief and extreme fear. The Prophet said to him: ...grieve not. Lo! Allah is with us {surah tawbah: 40}.

In this regard, Imam Bukhari documents: Abu Bakr: I said to the prophet, peace be upon him, while I was in the cave, "if any of them should look under his feet, he would see us." He said, "O Abu Bakr! What do you think of two, the third of whom is Allah? {al-jami' al-Sahih al-Mukhtasar, vol. 3, p. 1337, #3453}.

Lo!Allah (it is) Who split the grain of corn and the date-stone (for sprouting)...This is Allah .... {surah An'am: 94}.
So if He is confined in the heavens on a Chair, how is He everywhere with everything?

Interestingly the first group argued that those verses above (presented by the second group) simply means Allah's knowledge encompass everything and He direct the affairs of all thing; and does not mean that He is physically present.
This is right interpretation but unfortunately they are hell-bent and staunchly adhere to their rigid literal interpretation of "Allah sits on the throne", "the hands or face of Allah" etc. Just as they believed the verses presented by the second group are metaphorical, the second group all believed the verse presented by them are metaphorical and never literal.

THE BASICS OF THE QUR'AN
Where is Allah? In the heaven, on the throne or He is everywhere?Literally both school seem to be correct in their justification as supported by verses of the Qur'an.

However, according to the Quran surah Al-Imran: 7, there are two basic verses in the Qur'an: One is Muhkamat (clear) verses, and the other is Mutashabihat (allegorical) verses. The "clear verses" according to the Quran, are the foundation of the Quran which the "allegorical verses" are built upon.

There is no doubt, some of the verses that talk about "Allah sits on the throne", "The chair of Allah encompasses the heavens and the earth{ayat qursiyy}", "hands and face of Allah", etc are all allegorical verses and interpreting them literally will give a false meaning to these glorious verses.
If we however interpret under the guidance of the "clear verses" which are the foundation of the Quran upon which "allegorical" should be based on, one gets a true meaning of those ayah.

ALLAH IS NOT LIKEN TO ANYTHING
The fact that human is composed of matter, it is natural that we look and interpret everything on material level. This include our view on God.
Quran however cautions: Glory be to your Lord, Lord of majesty; far above what is ascribe unto Him.
There is NONE comparable unto Him.

If it is interpreted that Allah really sits on the throne, philosophically, we have liken Him to a body which is confined in a particular space. Meaning He depend on something.
If we interpreted the "hands, face" of God mention in the Quran as literal, it simply means He is a body with shape and volume.

He is the Creator (al-khaliq)
He is Allah the Creator...{Quran, ch.59:24}.
Another ayah says He creates everything (khaliqu kulli shay'in).
The implication is that He creates "space" (where He is being said to occupy), "Arsh - throne" and "Kur'si - chair" (where it is interpreted to have seated on). All these are His creation.

He is "as-Samad"
Say: He is Allah, the One. Allah is He on whom ALL DEPEND {surah Ikhlas: 1-2}.
Therefore, He can never depend on "space, throne or chair". So Allah sits on the throne, or His chair encompasses the heavens and the earth can never be interpreted literally as it is against the foundational verses of the Qur'an.

Meaning of "ABOVE" or "HIGH"
"...what they call upon besides Him is falsehood; Allah is the High, the Great {Quran22:61}
The first group of Muslims in this discourse believe Allah being "Al-Aliyy" (Above or High) simply means He is "above His creation" as in high (height) in the heavens above His creation who are below.
However, the word "Al-Aliyy" is derived from "uluww", height, sublimity, or loftiness versus lowliness. The height refer to here is that of status. Al-Aliyy us High, so High that He can never be conceived or visualized. Minds are at a loss regarding His greatness; intellects are incapable of conceiving His perfection.

According to Al-Mufradat, one who is "Aliyy" is a prominent person, a man of distinction. When applied to the Almighty, as in Q.22:61 cited above, the implied meaning is that He is above being described by anyone or truly known by anyone. Quran says: "He is the Most High, the Great"{Q.2:255}; "...judgement belongs to Allah, the High, the Great" {Q.13:9}.
Allah is Great that even the "Asmaul husna (beautiful names)" in which He introduced Himself with in the Quran do not do justice to His Greatness.

MEANING OF ARSH, KUR'SI, HANDS, FACE OF ALLAH
To be continue in sha Allah, ta ala.

Cc: Empiree I open this thread in other not to derail the subject matter of your thread where Fundamentalist pose this question.

Following....

So Albaqir, what's your creed on the bone of contenton raised by mr fundamental?. I made mine clear cut on the thread.

Empiree:
So Albaqir, what's your creed on the bone of contenton raised by mr fundamental?. I made mine clear cut on the thread.

I subscribe firmly to the opinion which says Allah is everywhere with everything and in everything. His existence is not of a physical or spiritual being we can ever comprehend. He is not confined to a particular place where He moves from one place to the other with time. "Glory be to Him far from what they ascribe to Him.

To put this straight, Maula Ameerul mu'mineen, Ali ibn Abi talib (as) says:

He is not alike any form and neither is He perceived by the senses. Nor can He be compared to anything. In spite of being far, He is near and despite being near, He is far. He is above everything and nothing is above of Him. He is ahead of everything and nothing is ahead of Him. He is inside the things through His power, but He is not like something, which is inside something. He is outside the things but He is not like something, which comes out of something. Purified is one Who is such and other than Him is not like this and He is the beginning of everything. {Usul al-Kafi, vol. 1, pg. 86}.

Double post

AlBaqir:


[size=13pt]I subscribe firmly to the opinion which says Allah is everywhere with everything and in everything.[/size] His existence is not of a physical or spiritual being we can ever comprehend. He is not confined to a particular place where He moves from one place to the other with time. "Glory be to Him far from what they ascribe to Him.

MashaAllah!. there isn't much difference. Words are only worded differently. That's all. Salafi critics need to shut up honestly. @Fundamentalist, do you have problem with albaqir's creed here?. As Sheik Imran rightly said, that muslims do not defer upon Quran. Holding on to Quran first as the only guarantee kitab without any blemish is paramount. You dont turn to hadith first to derive meaning. But salafi a k a Alhu Hadith cling on to Hadith first which can be very misleading. Their argument is Quran can not be understood alone. That's false for many obvious reasons. One of the reasons is when non-muslims show interest or convinced that islam is the truth, the first thing you hear them say is they read Quran. They dont say they read hadith. This does not mean hadith doesnt exist.

To put this straight, Maula Ameerul mu'mineen, Ali ibn Abi talib (as) says:

He is not alike any form and neither is He perceived by the senses. Nor can He be compared to anything. In spite of being far, He is near and despite being near, He is far. He is above everything and nothing is above of Him. He is ahead of everything and nothing is ahead of Him. He is inside the things through His power, but He is not like something, which is inside something. He is outside the things but He is not like something, which comes out of something. Purified is one Who is such and other than Him is not like this and He is the beginning of everything. {Usul al-Kafi, vol. 1, pg. 86}.

Nothing further from the truth.

Hmm,

Fine work al-baqir Indeed for the intellectually sound... infact more kuli kuli to ur garri And for those who have eyes in their hearts let them see

Imam Abu Hanifah


Abu Muti' Al-Balkhi reported: "I asked Imam Abu
Hanifah about a person who says, 'I do not know
whether my Rabb is, above the heavens or on
earth?' Abu Hanifah, may Allah grant him His mercy ,
said: 'A person who makes such a statement
becomes an apostate because Allah, the Exalted
says, 'The Merciful has ascended above the 'Arsh ,
and the 'Arsh of Allah is above His heavens'. I
further asked Abu Hanifah, 'What if such a person
admits, Allah is above His 'Arsh , but exclaims, I do
not know whether His 'Arsh is above the heavens
or on earth'. Abu Hanifah responded: 'If he denies
that the 'Arsh is above the heavens, he is an
apostate." [ Sharh at-Tahawiyyah , p. 288].

Imam Malik
Abdullah bin Nafi' reported: Malik bin Anas said: "Allah is above the heavens, but His knowledge encompasses everything. Nothing escapes His knowledge." [Abdullah bin Ahmad, as-Sunnah , and others]

Imam ash-Shafi'i
Imam ash-Shafi'i said:"The creed which I hold is the same creed the Muslims before me were holding, namely, the Testimony of Faith: "There is no god worthy of being worshipped except Allah, that Muhammed is the Messenger of Allah, and that Allah is above His 'Arsh , above the heavens. He descends to the lowest heaven whenever He wishes." [ Al-Juyush al-Islamiyyah , Ibn al-Qayyim, p. 93] Imam ibn Khuzaymah, a Shafi'ite himself, said: "Whoever disacknowledges that Allah is above His 'Arsh , above His seven heavens, and that He is separated from His creatures, is a Kafir , (unbeliever). Such person must be ordered to repent and disavow his belief, or else he must be beheaded and thrown on a garbage dump so that neither Ahlul-Qiblah nor Ahludh-Dhimmah be annoyed by the foul odor of his carcass." [Ibid] Abu Bakr Muhammad at-Tamimi, a Shafi'ite Imam of Naisabur, said: "I do not pray behind a person who denies the attributes of Allah and does not recognize that Allah is above His 'Arsh." [Ibid]

Imam Ahmad
He was asked: "Is Allah above His 'Arsh , above the seventh heaven, separate from His creatures, and is His knowledge and power encompassing everything everywhere?" He replied: "Certainly, He is above His 'Arsh and nothing escapes His knowledge." [ Al-Juyush al-Islamiyyah , Ibn al-Qayyim, p. 123] All of the above show that the entire Muslim 'Ummah, in the past and present, is in unison regarding the belief in the Loftiness and Supremacy of Allah, the Exalted .

Now, we know the Imams who holds the opinion of the first group, abeg who are the Imams who subscribed to the sentiments of the second group?

@Kennyosein, Ooops the thread is so juicy that you rescinded your principle of not replying who you dimmed "kafir"

Anyway, kindly show me a DAEEF HADITH [because I know there is absolutely no sahih hadith] where the prophet commanded the Ummah to follow the opinions of the Shafi'i, Maliki, et al. Just one will do please. It is unfortunate that when it comes to other centralized issues pertaining to your creed, your shuyukh and students alike spare no rod to condemn and flog the Malikis, Shafi'is et al.

However, if you read this thread well, both Quran and Ali (the two weighty things left by the Prophet for the guidance of Ummah) confirmed the opinion of the second group.

I posted because of those viewing this thread, and can you quote were I called you a Kaafir?

It is unfortunate that when it comes to other centralized issues pertaining to your creed, your shuyukh and students alike spare no rod to condemn and flog the Malikis, Shafi'is ete

dekatrons:
Fine work al-baqir
Indeed for the intellectually sound... infact more kuli kuli to ur garri
And for those who have eyes in their hearts let them see

Earnestly waiting for that kuli kuli jare my brother. But I will prefer kuli alata

One of the most funniest silly argument of the first ideologist (presented above), is they often ask the second group "if you say Allah is everywhere and with everything, does He also present in your 'shit'?" And they will instantly add "Allah is pure while your 'shit' is not".

I say: There are millions of living organisms in that very 'shit', and they are only in existence with the presence of Allah, the Ever-living. Everything derive their being living from Allah's perfect attribute of "al-Hayyu". You cannot separate Him from His attributes.

On the other hand, that very 'shit' composed of matter and all matters exist not except with the presence of their creator. How are we then allowed to perform tayammum (which normally do not remove sexual emissions) and pray (which is the best proximity to Allah) while we find no water to cleanse our impurity?

Before Allah, everything is pure and perfect because He Himself create them [Quran explain]. It is only in the fitrah (nature) of man to void impurity especially for our health sake.

And Fir'awn said, 'O, Haman, build for me a tower that I may reach the ways; the ways to heavens so that I may have a look at the Ilah of Musa.' [ Al-Qur'an 40:36-37] Even the enemy of Allah, Fir'awn (Pharoah), who flagrantly claimed to be a god of his people, knew Allah is above the heavens.

Bibliography;
sunnahonline.com/library/beliefs-and-methodology/180-where-is-allah

markazsunnahleicester.com/the-belief-of-the-salaf-in-allahs-elevation-istiwa-on-the-throne-scholars-after-the-salaf-part-3-of-3/

www.abovethethrone.com/arsh/

I believe this is more than enough for anyone who is sincere.

kennyosein:
And Fir'awn said, 'O, Haman, build for me a tower that I may reach the ways; the ways to heavens so that I may have a look at the Ilah of Musa.' [ Al-Qur'an 40:36-37] Even the enemy of Allah, Fir'awn (Pharoah), who flagrantly claimed to be a god of his people, knew Allah is above the heavens.

Bibliography;
sunnahonline.com/library/beliefs-and-methodology/180-where-is-allah

markazsunnahleicester.com/the-belief-of-the-salaf-in-allahs-elevation-istiwa-on-the-throne-scholars-after-the-salaf-part-3-of-3/

www.abovethethrone.com/arsh/

I believe this is more than enough for anyone who is sincere.

Sallam bro..will like to ask you a question pls
By saying Allah resides somewhere above the seventh heavens do you say that Allah is finite and limited to time and space cause only some1 who is limited to time and space can be present at a particular place in a particular time...if yes...are you saying Allah depends on tym and space to carry out His affairs which undoubtedly makes him imperfect? If ur ansa is no pls what do u mean?

^^^ you brothers mind this fellow? . His understanding and the likes are defective. They reduced Allah and everything about Him to text.

Allah is in everything. They don't understand that. Allah's names, ism-llah is in everything. ...living and non living things. Allah's names is in money. ...that's why we spend it. Once His Names are no longer in it. ..it becomes wallpaper.

Protestant Islam don't understand that.

Also Allah's Names and Attributes Are in our body both human and animals. His names are underneath every single hair on our body. The thing is we are so lazy. If you, kennyosein invokes His Names and Attributes in seclusion for days without going outside and fast at the same time, you will see beyond text that your scholars wrote about Him(SWT). ALLAHU AKBAR.

dekatrons:

Sallam bro..will like to ask you a question pls
By saying Allah resides somewhere above the seventh heavens do you say that Allah is finite and limited to time and space cause only some1 who is limited to time and space can be present at a particular place in a particular time...if yes...are you saying Allah depends on tym and space to carry out His affairs which undoubtedly makes him imperfect? If ur ansa is no pls what do u mean?

1. Bro your argument is a nonsense argument that
merely sounds like it make sense.

2. Stop applying logic and philosophy when it comes to the matters of the deen.

3. When it comes to Islam the textual proofs supersede your intellect and

4. Why should I pother about what you wrote when the Quran is clear or are you saying the Quran is wrong, or are saying you understand the Quran better than the Salaf? Allah says "The Compassionate has rose over the 'Arsh ." [ Al-Qur'an 20:2]

"And verily, your Rabb is Allah who created
the heaven and earth in six days, and then rose
over the 'Arsh." [ Al-Qur'an 7:54]

Allah also says: "Are you sure that He Who is
Above the heaven will not cleave the earth beneath
you? Or are you sure that He Who is above the
heaven will not send against you a stone-charged
hurricane." [ Al-Qur'an 67:17-18]

"And He is Allah above the heaven and on the
earth He knows your private and public
affairs. And He knows what you achieve." [ Al-
Qur'an 6:3]

"O, Isa (Jesus)! I shall cause you to die, and
raise you up to Me." [ Al-Qur'an 3:55]

"Surely, your Rabb is the One who created the
heavens and the earth in six days; then He
istawa on the Throne." [ Al-Qur'an 7:54]

All these ayats from the Quran are self elucidatory.

Abdullah bin Amr reported that the Prophet
sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam said: "Be merciful to
those on earth, so that the One above the heavens
will be merciful to you." [ Imam al-Bukhari, Imam
Muslim, and others]

Abu Hurayrah reported that the Prophet
sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam said, "Allah will
descend to His slaves on the Day of
Resurrection." [At-Tirmidhi and others]

And lastly
The Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam
reported his eventful journey from Makkah to
Jerusalem (al-Mi'raj ) and from there up to the
heavens as follows: Jibril took me up to the
lowest heaven and requested its guards to
open its gate. He was asked, 'Who is this?' He
answered, 'Jibril.' 'Who is with you?' They
inquired. 'Muhammed sallallahu 'alayhi wa
sallam' he answered. They inquired. 'Has he
been invited?' 'Yes'. Jibril replied. Then
someone greeted saying, 'He is most welcome'.
The Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam
continued, when the gate was opened, I
entered and met Adam there. Jibril said to me,
'This is your father, greet him'. Adam greeted
me back, saying: 'Welcome, pious son and
pious Prophet'. Then Jibril ascended to the
second heaven and requested its guards to
open its gate. The questioning that took place
in the lowest heaven was repeated before the
gate was opened. The Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi
wa sallam described what he saw in every
heaven, until finally he was taken up to the
seventh heaven where obligatory prayers were
prescribed to him. This authentic mutawatir
hadith speaks clearly in plain words and
straightforward manner which is not liable to
misconstruction or farfetched interpretations.
The Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam was
taken up to his Rabb from one heaven above
the other. Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama'ah believe
that the Mi'raj was neither an illusion nor a
vision, rather real and essential. Had Allah
been everywhere, why would the Prophet
sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam be taken all the way
up to the seventh heaven? Allah would have
prescribed to him the Salah on earth rather
than in the seventh heaven.

If you still believe you Creator is everywhere, Bros you are OYO.

Empiree:
^^^ you brothers mind this fellow? . His understanding and the likes are defective. They reduced Allah and everything about Him to text.

Allah is in everything. They don't understand that. Allah's names, ism-llah is in everything. ...living and non living things. Allah's names is in money. ...that's why we spend it. Once His Names are no longer in it. ..it becomes wallpaper.

Protestant Islam don't understand that.

Also Allah's Names and Attributes Are in our body both human and animals. His names are underneath every single hair on our body. The thing is we are so lazy. If you, kennyosein invokes His Names and Attributes in seclusion for days without going outside and fast at the same time, you will see beyond text that your scholars wrote about Him(SWT). ALLAHU AKBAR.

Inna Lillahi wa inna ilaihi raji'un, I didn't know your condition has gotten to this realm, may Allah rectify your condition.

May Allah safeguard us.

kennyosein:


1. Bro your argument is a nonsense argument that
merely sounds like it make sense.

2. Stop applying logic and philosophy when it comes to the matters of the deen.

3. When it comes to Islam the textual proofs supersede your intellect and

4. Why should I pother about what you wrote when the Quran is clear or are you saying the Quran is wrong, or are saying you understand the Quran better than the Salaf? Allah says "The Compassionate has rose over the 'Arsh ." [ Al-Qur'an 20:2]

"And verily, your Rabb is Allah who created
the heaven and earth in six days, and then rose
over the 'Arsh." [ Al-Qur'an 7:54]

Allah also says: "Are you sure that He Who is
Above the heaven will not cleave the earth beneath
you? Or are you sure that He Who is above the
heaven will not send against you a stone-charged
hurricane." [ Al-Qur'an 67:17-18]

"And He is Allah above the heaven and on the
earth He knows your private and public
affairs. And He knows what you achieve." [ Al-
Qur'an 6:3]

"O, Isa (Jesus)! I shall cause you to die, and
raise you up to Me." [ Al-Qur'an 3:55]

"Surely, your Rabb is the One who created the
heavens and the earth in six days; then He
istawa on the Throne." [ Al-Qur'an 7:54]

All these ayats from the Quran are self elucidatory.

Abdullah bin Amr reported that the Prophet
sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam said: "Be merciful to
those on earth, so that the One above the heavens
will be merciful to you." [ Imam al-Bukhari, Imam
Muslim, and others]

Abu Hurayrah reported that the Prophet
sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam said, "Allah will
descend to His slaves on the Day of
Resurrection." [At-Tirmidhi and others]

And lastly
The Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam
reported his eventful journey from Makkah to
Jerusalem (al-Mi'raj ) and from there up to the
heavens as follows: Jibril took me up to the
lowest heaven and requested its guards to
open its gate. He was asked, 'Who is this?' He
answered, 'Jibril.' 'Who is with you?' They
inquired. 'Muhammed sallallahu 'alayhi wa
sallam' he answered. They inquired. 'Has he
been invited?' 'Yes'. Jibril replied. Then
someone greeted saying, 'He is most welcome'.
The Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam
continued, when the gate was opened, I
entered and met Adam there. Jibril said to me,
'This is your father, greet him'. Adam greeted
me back, saying: 'Welcome, pious son and
pious Prophet'. Then Jibril ascended to the
second heaven and requested its guards to
open its gate. The questioning that took place
in the lowest heaven was repeated before the
gate was opened. The Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi
wa sallam described what he saw in every
heaven, until finally he was taken up to the
seventh heaven where obligatory prayers were
prescribed to him. This authentic mutawatir
hadith speaks clearly in plain words and
straightforward manner which is not liable to
misconstruction or farfetched interpretations.
The Prophet sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam was
taken up to his Rabb from one heaven above
the other. Ahlus-Sunnah wal-Jama'ah believe
that the Mi'raj was neither an illusion nor a
vision, rather real and essential. Had Allah
been everywhere, why would the Prophet
sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam be taken all the way
up to the seventh heaven? Allah would have
prescribed to him the Salah on earth rather
than in the seventh heaven.

If you still believe you Creator is everywhere, Bros you are OYO.

Be kind enough to avoid using vulgar language when starting a dialogue it will speak well of you
first...I guess uve forgotten so soon dat dere are numerous verses in the koran which lay emphasis on knowledge,intellect,and reflection...pls do well to go true dem again as a revision
Second.....the throne Allah speaks of is not a litteral throne...for when you speak of throne two things should come to a reasonable persons mind 1-d physical throne 2-is a position of majesty and royalty...the throne Allah speaks of is the position of majesty not the literal throne
Pls do well to ponder more and make more reseach b4 reaching to a conclusion

kennyosein:
Imam Ahmad

He was asked: "Is Allah above His 'Arsh , above the
seventh heaven, separate from His creatures, and
is His knowledge and power encompassing
everything everywhere?" He replied: "Certainly, He
is above His 'Arsh and nothing escapes His
knowledge." [ Al-Juyush al-Islamiyyah , Ibn al-Qayyim,
p. 123]


All of the above show that the entire Muslim 'Ummah, in the past and present, is in
unison regarding the belief in the Loftiness and Supremacy of Allah, the Exalted .

Are we discussing about the "Loftiness and Supremacy" of Allah? No. Don't confuse His supremacy with "sitting on a chair in or above the heavens". That is our discussion here.

The view you presented above does not negate "Allah being everywhere and with everything" as Quran in surah mujadalah says.

kennyosein:
And Fir'awn said, 'O, Haman, build for me a tower that I may reach the ways; the ways to heavens so that I may have a look at the Ilah of Musa.' [ Al-Qur'an 40:36-37] Even the enemy of Allah, Fir'awn (Pharoah), who flagrantly claimed to be a god of his people, knew Allah is above the heavens.

.

This verse according to your understanding simply testify that Allah is confined to the heavens. One hadith in sahih Bukhari says He used to move from the 7th heavens to the 1st heavens to hear the prayers of His Abd in the later part of the night.
According to the Quran, there exist 7 heavens. So where is His chair where He sits? Certain ahadith says "Above the heavens" and the Quran says "...His Chair extends over the heavens and the earth...."

Obviously "in the heavens" is different from "above the heavens".

Quran has given you a unique answer when it says Allah is everywhere. Part of that "where" is the heavens whether "in" or "above". It is however very absurd to restrict and confined Him to a place on a Chair when Quran uniquely inform you that He does not depend on anything.

kennyosein:


Inna Lillahi wa inna ilaihi raji'un, I didn't know your condition has gotten to this realm, may Allah rectify your condition.

May Allah safeguard us.

Same to you brother. All you gotta do is point out what's against Islam in points I raised. You sure don't get it.

kennyosein:


1. Bro your argument is a nonsense argument that
merely sounds like it make sense.

You are forgiven for using vulgar language though Allah says in His book "Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good manners and argue with sound exhortation...."

Why do I forgive you? Its obvious you copied this and unfortunately you copied salt upon insults with it. That's sad from a muslim whose prophet radiate kindness amidst insults.

kennyosein:


2. Stop applying logic and philosophy when it comes to the matters of the deen.

Tens of verses instruct us to ponder upon the verses of the Quran. Some verses says "these are signs for those who think, who reflect and who understand". Logical and philosophical arguments are posed severally as awakening and challenge in the Quran. So how dare anyone saying logic and philosophy should not be used.

Not using one's number six result to literal interpretation of hand and face of Allah.

kennyosein:


3. When it comes to Islam the textual proofs supersede your intellect and

Allah instruct "Do they not ponder upon the Quran?" So there is no crime pondering intellectually upon the Quran. What is forbidden is imposing one's view and understanding on the Quran rather than deriving one's view from Quran.

kennyosein:


4. Why should I ponder about what you wrote when the Quran is clear or are you saying the Quran is wrong, or are saying you understand the Quran better than the Salaf? Allah says "The Compassionate has rose over the 'Arsh ." [ Al-Qur'an 20:2]

"And verily, your Rabb is Allah who created
the heaven and earth in six days, and then rose
over the 'Arsh." [ Al-Qur'an 7:54]

Allah also says: "Are you sure that He Who is
Above the heaven will not cleave the earth beneath
you? Or are you sure that He Who is above the
heaven will not send against you a stone-charged
hurricane." [ Al-Qur'an 67:17-18]

"And He is Allah above the heaven and on the
earth He knows your private and public
affairs. And He knows what you achieve." [ Al-
Qur'an 6:3]

"O, Isa (Jesus)! I shall cause you to die, and
raise you up to Me." [ Al-Qur'an 3:55]

"Surely, your Rabb is the One who created the
heavens and the earth in six days; then He
istawa on the Throne." [ Al-Qur'an 7:54]

All these ayats from the Quran are self elucidatory.

So why do you then put the Christians to the sword who have same believe as yours that Father sits on the throne in the heavens and the son sits right beside Him?

Allamah Hussein Tabatabai writes:

* Actually there is no physical existence of any Arsh,


* and the words “ And He rose over the Throne” or the “ Rahman sat on the throne” denote the lordship of God over all the creations. • Some times the word “ Istawa” is used in the sense of “Istila” or predominance.

* The taking control over the throne may denote the manner in which a king sits on the throne when he begins his official work of administration making enquiries about his kingdom.

* But this cannot apply to God,

* Because He is the all-knowing and is aware of all that goes on in His created worlds, • so we can say that He rises over or assumes control to bestow the divine graces on mankind.

* Or we can say that he created mankind gave him life, and then death etc.

Empiree:
^^^ you brothers mind this fellow? . His understanding and the likes are defective. They reduced Allah and everything about Him to text.

Allah is in everything. They don't understand that. Allah's names, ism-llah is in everything. ...living and non living things. Allah's names is in money. ...that's why we spend it. Once His Names are no longer in it. ..it becomes wallpaper.

Protestant Islam don't understand that.

Also Allah's Names and Attributes Are in our body both human and animals. His names are underneath every single hair on our body. The thing is we are so lazy. If you, kennyosein invokes His Names and Attributes in seclusion for days without going outside and fast at the same time, you will see beyond text that your scholars wrote about Him(SWT). ALLAHU AKBAR.

Ma sha Allah Empiree, that piece above is deep for those who understand. However I must add Allah's attributes or Ism cannot be separated from Himself. For example He is "al-Hayyu - the ever living". Everything with life derive their living from this attribute al-Hayyu. And since His attribute cannot be detached from Himself, He is "inside" that thing that lives. This is unity of creation.

AlBaqir:


You are forgiven for using vulgar language though Allah says in His book "Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good manners and argue with sound exhortation...."

Why do I forgive you? Its obvious you copied this and unfortunately you copied salt upon insults with it. That's sad from a muslim whose prophet radiate kindness amidst insults.



Tens of verses instruct us to ponder upon the verses of the Quran. Some verses says "these are signs for those who think, who reflect and who understand". Logical and philosophical arguments are posed severally as awakening and challenge in the Quran. So how dare anyone saying logic and philosophy should not be used.

Not using one's number six result to literal interpretation of hand and face of Allah.



Allah instruct "Do they not ponder upon the Quran?" So there is no crime pondering intellectually upon the Quran. What is forbidden is imposing one's view and understanding on the Quran rather than deriving one's view from Quran.




So why do you then put the Christians to the sword who have same believe as yours that Father sits on the throne in the heavens and the son sits right beside Him?

Allamah Hussein Tabatabai writes:

* Actually there is no physical existence of any Arsh,


* and the words “ And He rose over the Throne” or the “ Rahman sat on the throne” denote the lordship of God over all the creations. • Some times the word “ Istawa” is used in the sense of “Istila” or predominance.

* The taking control over the throne may denote the manner in which a king sits on the throne when he begins his official work of administration making enquiries about his kingdom.

* But this cannot apply to God,

* Because He is the all-knowing and is aware of all that goes on in His created worlds, • so we can say that He rises over or assumes control to bestow the divine graces on mankind.

* Or we can say that he created mankind gave him life, and then death etc.

al baqir....Allah rose over a throne.kilo awkward ninu iyen. He attributed face and hands to himself, kilo bad ninu iyen. much as yu may apply logic to interpret quran, you cant twist all the words and arrive at the conclusion that literal interpretations are not befitting