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An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by MrOlai: 9:18pm On Nov 04, 2015 |
*Logic Story of Imaam Ahmad(Rahimahullah Warahmatan Wasian) & the Shia: All the scholars of Shia attended a meeting to discuss the whole issue of Sunni & Shia. Only one Sunni Scholar attended the meeting, Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal. He walked in late to the meeting holding his sandals under his armpit. The Scholars of the Shia looked at him and asked “Why have you entered holding your sandals?” Imam Ahmed replied: “I heard that the Shia in the Prophet(SAW)'s time used to steal sandals”. So the scholars of the Shia looked at each other confused and replied: “There was no Shia in the Prophet's time.” Then, Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal said: “This ends our discussion. Then, where did u get ur religion from? What an intelligent and creative behavior! https://www.nairaland.com/2676207/educative-debate-between-sunni-shia#39143155 5 Likes 1 Share |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by lanrexlan(m): 11:01pm On Nov 04, 2015 |
Is it permissible to lie to prove a point? 2 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by Fundamentalist: 7:14am On Nov 05, 2015 |
Lol. Though I have had about it but have yet to see a reference for it. It would better you provide proof to back up what you have just said |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by MrOlai: 8:22am On Nov 05, 2015 |
Fundamentalist: You are very correct. However, it's not from me. It's actually from the link below. https://www.nairaland.com/2676207/educative-debate-between-sunni-shia#39143155 “I heard that the Shia in the Prophet(SAW)'s time used to steal sandals”. This part got me cracking... 1 Like |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by AlBaqir(m): 8:51am On Nov 05, 2015 |
Subhan'Allah wala haola wala quwata illah billah. So, MrOlai kindly provide solid evidence to back your lies. This very story was actually the opposite and it was not at the time of Imam Ahmad. Imam Ahmad was a contemporary of Musa Ibn Jafar, al-Kazim; Ali ibn Musa ar-Ridha, both the Aimma of the Ahl al-bayt (peace be upon them). Imam Ahmad and other scholars of the Sunni had a great respect for them. The story stole by MrOlai happened to Allamah al-Hilli who happened to be a contemporary of Sheik Ibn Taymiyyah. In fact, it was Allamah al-Hilli's book "Minhaj al-Karaama fi ma'rifat al-Imaama", that brought up Sheik Ibn Taymiyyah's book "Minhaj al-Sunnah an-Nabawiyyah" as a responds. The Genesis of the story Hasan ibn Yusuf ibn Ali ibn Muthahhar Al-Hilli, more commonly known as Allamah al-Hilli (b. 648AH) He was known for his wit and wisdom. Those, together with his solid knowledge in Shi’i doctrines would give strength to his arguments and thereby enormous fame in forums and councils. He was of great influence in Persia where he moved in 1305 and had contributed to wide spreading of the teachings and philosophy of Ahl al-Bayt. He was able to convert Oljaitu, the eight ruler of the Ilkhanid dynasty, into Shi'ism which led to proclaiming Shia Islam as the state religion. His cleverness has been documented on many different occasions in Hilla and Persia. Most famous of his stories was probably when the Sultan of Persia, who divorced his wife thrice, sent for him for an advice. In the royal court of the Sultan, Al-Hilli showed eloquence and prudence utterly superior to all other scholars present, who belonged to other school of thoughts and had gathered for the purpose of sabotaging Allamah Hilli. It is here that the story was mentioned where Allamah al-Hilli entered court of the Sultan of Persia, Oljaitu, with his shoes on his armpit. A Maliki scholar was the first to throw a word, "why this act?" Allamah al-Hilli responded,"perhaps that was how the Malikis used to do at the time of the Prophet". The Maliki scholar instantly voiced out "There were no Maliki at the time of the Prophet". Allamah al-Hilli faced the other Scholars {Hanbali, Hanafi, Shafi'i etc} and said the same to them. All of them denied there were no such school during the time of the prophet. Then Allamah al-Hilli exploded by facing the Sultan "You can confirm yourself that there were none of these school of thought at the time of the Prophet but I am of the school whose birth time was at the time of the holy Prophet; and that school was established by 'Ali ibn Abi Talib which go through a straight chain to his offspring {the progeny of the holy Prophet }" # Reference: History of Islamic Thought by Henry Cobin, pg. 321. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by AlBaqir(m): 9:18am On Nov 05, 2015 |
MrOlai: Sometimes I wonder if you have senses at all. At first you lied with a story that Shi'a claimed there were no Shi'a at the time of the Prophet. Now a part of the same lies got you cracking where it says "Shi'a [existed at Prophet's time] for they used to steal sandals". Do you think at all? On the other hands, if that part really got you cracking, then you have lied against the Sahaba of the Prophet [peace be upon him and his progeny] for many of them were known Shi'a and Rafida. Yes! Shi'a and Rafida. Examples: A Sahabi by the name, Abu al-Tufayl ['Amir b. Wathilah b. 'Abd Allah b. Amr al-Laythi al-Kanani al-Hijazi] is described by al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani and Imam Ibn 'Abd al-Barr thus: “Abu Umar said: He accepted the Merit of Abu Bakr and 'Umar but he considered 'Ali to be the Most superior” {al-Isabah fi Tamyiz al-Sahabah (Beirut: Dar al-Kutub al-'Illmiyyah, 1st edition, 1415H), vol. 7, p.193, #10166} And Imam al-Dhahabi also concur: "The name of Abu Tufayl was 'Amir b. Wathilah b. 'Abd Allah b. 'Amr al-Laythi al-Kanani al-Hijazi, THE SHI'I. HE WAS FROM THE SHI'AH OF 'ALI." Ref: {Siyar A'lam al-Nubala (Beirut, 9th edition, 1413H), vol. 3, p. 468, #97} Imam Ibn Qutaybah stated: ﺃﺳﻤﺎﺀ ﺍﻟﻐﺎﻟﻴﺔ ﻣﻦ ﺍﻟﺮﺍﻓﻀﺔ ﺃﺑﻮ ﺍﻟﻄﻔﻴﻞ ﺻﺎﺣﺐ ﺭﺍﻳﺔ ﺍﻟﻤﺨﺘﺎﺭ، ﻭﻛﺎﻥ ﺁﺧﺮ ﻣﻦ ﺭﺃﻯ ﺭﺳﻮﻝ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﺻﻠﻰ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﻋﻠﻴﻪ ﻭﺳﻠﻢ ﻣﻮﺗﺎً . ﻭﺃﺑﻮ ﻋﺒﺪ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﺍﻟﺠﺪﻟﻲ ﻭﺯﺭﺍﺭﺓ ﺑﻦ ﺃﻋﻴﻦ ﻭﺟﺎﺑﺮ ﺍﻟﺠﻌﻔﻲ TRANSLATION: Names of the EXTREMISTS among the RAFIDIS: Abu al-Tufayl, the flagbearer for Mukhtar, and he was the last of those who saw the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, to die; and Abu 'Abdullah al-Jadali; and Zurarah b. A'yan; and Jabir al-Ju'fi. Source: Kitab al-Ma'arif. Link to the book from a Salafi website: http://islamport.com/w/adb/Web/541/138.htm Another RAFIDI Sahabi was Sulayman b. Surad, رضي الله عنه. Imam al-Dhahabi wrote about him in his Siyar: ﺳﻠﻴﻤﺎﻥ ﺑﻦ ﺻﺮﺩ ( ﻉ ) ﺍﻷﻣﻴﺮ ﺃﺑﻮ ﻣﻄﺮﻑ ﺍﻟﺨﺰﺍﻋﻲ ﺍﻟﻜﻮﻓﻲ ﺍﻟﺼﺤﺎﺑﻲ That confirms that he was indeed a Sahabi. Then, al-Dhahabi says further about him: ﻗﻠﺖ : ﻛﺎﻥ ﺩﻳﻨﺎ ﻋﺎﺑﺪﺍ ، ﺧﺮﺝ ﻓﻲ ﺟﻴﺶ ﺗﺎﺑﻮﺍ ﺇﻟﻰ ﺍﻟﻠﻪ ﻣﻦ ﺧﺬﻻﻧﻬﻢ ﺍﻟﺤﺴﻴﻦ ﺍﻟﺸﻬﻴﺪ ، ﻭﺳﺎﺭﻭﺍ ﻟﻠﻄﻠﺐ ﺑﺪﻣﻪ ، ﻭﺳﻤﻮﺍ ﺟﻴﺶ ﺍﻟﺘﻮﺍﺑﻴﻦ TRANSLATION: "I say: he was a devout worshipper. He rose as part of an army, which was seeking the forgiveness of Allah FOR THEIR BETRAYAL OF HUSAYN THE MARTYR. So, they went in revenge for his blood. And they named the army al-Tawwabin." Source: Siyar A'lam al-Nubala. Link: https://library.islamweb.net/newlibrary/display_book.php?ID=357&bk_no=60&flag=1 2 Likes 2 Shares |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by MrOlai: 9:48am On Nov 05, 2015 |
AlBaqir: According to the story from the link, Imam Ahmad never meant Shia existed during the lifetime of the Prophet (SAW) with the statement: “I heard that the Shia in the Prophet(SAW)'s time used to steal sandals”. He wanted the Shia to confess, which they did. Perhaps, they would have a rethink on their new religion. It seems you have comprehension problem! 5 Likes |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by AlBaqir(m): 10:31am On Nov 05, 2015 |
MrOlai: Far from that, man. That point simply made you painted Imam Ahmad as a person who lies and fabricate story in order to win argument. The question we ask is "From where and whom did he heard the story?" Allah says {If an evil person brought a news, verify...}. Again No sense! |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by MrOlai: 1:24pm On Nov 05, 2015 |
AlBaqir: I'm not the author of the story. You can kindly go to the link and ask the author. But honestly, there was nothing like Shi'ism during the lifetime of the Prophet (SAW). What the Prophet (SAW) left is Islam as practised by Himself (SAW) and His Khulafah Rashidun(Rightly Guided Caliphs) in persons of Abubakr, Umar, Uthman and Ali (R. A. Ajmain). Shi'sm started much more later during the lifetime of Ali(R.A). It is even reported that Ali(R.A) killed many of the Shia who were introducing Shi'ism into Islam. 2 Likes |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by AlBaqir(m): 2:42pm On Nov 05, 2015 |
MrOlai: Alhamdulillah you are being honest here. But recounting an unverify information is foolishness. MrOlai: You are adding more salt to you injuries. From the tales of yours, you need to provide the following: # What is the meaning of Shi'ism in line with the definition of Ahl al-Sunnah Aimmah? # Evidence that there were no Shi'a {or Shi'ism} during the lifetime of the Prophet [peace be upon him and his progeny] # Evidence that Shi'ism emerged during the time of Imam Ali [peace be upon him] # Evidence that Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman were "The Rightly guided Khalifah" mentioned by the holy Prophet where he commanded the Ummah to adhere to their Sunnah. Thanks. 1 Like |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by MrOlai: 4:06pm On Nov 05, 2015 |
AlBaqir: You are abusing me niyen oooo.. 1 Like |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by MrOlai: 4:11pm On Nov 05, 2015 |
AlBaqir: You and ur gunshots... @bolded... The way you dey throw way gbagaun on did forum.... It is UNVERIFIED.... not unverify.. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by MrOlai: 4:40pm On Nov 05, 2015 |
AlBaqir:This is another gbagaun... @bolded.. It is "STOLEN"... not stole.. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by AlBaqir(m): 4:40pm On Nov 05, 2015 |
MrOlai: Thanks for the correction and I hope you will continue to correct my grammatical "gbagun". Thanks once again. However, don't stylishly divert attention. You have boastfully raised some vital viewpoints, and the onus is on you to provide sound evidence to back yourself. I will gladly give you the opportunity to call upon your brothers on NL or elsewhere perhaps they can bail you out. "Say: Provide your evidence if you are truthful" {Qur'an}. 3 Likes 1 Share |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by MrOlai: 8:36pm On Nov 05, 2015 |
AlBaqir: Taqiya! 1 Like |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by AlBaqir(m): 9:52pm On Nov 05, 2015 |
MrOlai: From English grammar "corrector" to Taqiyah discoverer. Stop making fool of yourself man. Answer those questions posed to you or declare your ignorance (once again). 1 Like |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by Kunlexic(m): 10:18pm On Nov 05, 2015 |
@ bro albaqir and Mrolai,peace pls.We are brothers and don't let us give chance to devil.And btw let us 4get the arguments we all know Allah is one and we believe in prophet Muhammed(SAW)...@ MrOlai,,,it is good to correct people's mistake like grammatical blunders but remember dat No 1 is highland of knowledge. 1 Like |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by AlBaqir(m): 10:36pm On Nov 05, 2015 |
Kunlexic: Brother, I actually don't entertain lies and I don't think I've demanded too much from MrOlai. This is an educative debate (according to him). Alhamdulillah his lies and ignorance have been exposed. Instead of keeping mute, he added other lies and all I demand for is authentic evidences. As per grammatical blunders, MrOlai is known for his cunning ways of derailing topics whenever he's cornered. So that's nothing. Please don't let us go there further. The points raised are clear and the demands are right. So there's nothing like fighting here. Thanks brother. Fi Amanillah! 3 Likes |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by Fundamentalist: 4:57am On Nov 06, 2015 |
AlBaqir: I wonder how exposing the half truth and lies made by AL baqir in previous posts becomes a way of 'derailing your threads' . Alhamdulillah it's only learned Muslims that don't go for your garbage you call educative thread. 2 Likes |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by MrOlai: 8:11am On Nov 06, 2015 |
Fundamentalist: Don't mind him. A very cunning human being! I'm not surprised because Shi'ism is all about Taqiyya! 2 Likes |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by MrOlai: 8:34am On Nov 06, 2015 |
AlBaqir: This is the genesis of your religion (Shi'ism) and all it stands for: Abuamam: It's so unfortunate! May Allah(SWT) have mercy on you and bring you back into Islam as laid down by the Prophet (SAW). 3 Likes |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by AlBaqir(m): 8:46am On Nov 06, 2015 |
MrOlai: [size=25pt]Reference(s) please?![/size] Again, Quran states: "Say: Produce your evidence if you are truthful". Quickly seek the assistance of your men once again. Thanks. |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by AlBaqir(m): 9:06am On Nov 06, 2015 |
Fundamentalist: Ha-ha as-Sheikhul Islam turn Fundamentalist! H.O.D of the foolish dept. Alhamdulillah you've admitted to be a fool, and that was well documented in NL history. Your very confession. So am done with you a long time ago. MrOlai: An advice from my and your Mawla, 'Ali ibn Abi Talib [alaihim salam]: "Never befriend a fool...' their brain is always in their mouth [meaning they don't think before talking]..." Nahjul Balagha. 3 Likes |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by MrOlai: 1:22pm On Nov 06, 2015 |
AlBaqir: For this above, this is the reference: AlBaqir: AlBaqir: AlBaqir: ... |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by Empiree: 4:54pm On Nov 06, 2015 |
I am not going to side with anyone but will give my simple view on the issue. This whole issue of Shia not been Muslims, or that they created their own religion is very ridiculous. It's a mere theory borne out of hatred. I think the so called "savior" of Muslims who claim to follow "Quran and Sunna", and all other muslims are mushrik, attach too much to text(theory). I read what Abuamam wrote up there a while back. My take is that's just theory we read over and over. But if you go to Iran and ask them if there is another Quran different from Quran revealed to Nabi Muhammad the son of Abdullah (SAW), or that the current Quran we have is incomplete, they will tell you it is not true. Shia believe Quran is complete and that there is no hidden Quran somewhere. Sheik Imran Hussein, may Allah preserve him went to Iran on scholarly debate on the subject of ilm Akhir zaman. In their discussions, he realized that, the Shia believe the most important event to occur in the Last Age in the appearance of Imam Mahdi but to Sunni, the return of Isa alaiy salam is the most important event. Shia's view here does not in anyway take them outside the fold. Asked further if Shia believe or think Quran is incomplete?, Shia scholars denied the allegation and also denied hidden Quran. So everything abuamam wrote up there is not new. It's what sunni have been throwing around for decades. The whole thing is about hatred. I am sunni practically. Now they accuse Shia for saying Quran is incomplete but if you look at Sunni's litereature, especially on the subject of "rajam" or stoning, they also claim verse of Quran is missing. So who is fooling who?. They do exactly what they accused Shia of. Likewise, Salafi and Sufi, Tijaniya has been around for centuries. And none of the scholars of Tijaniyah believe solati faith is greater than obligatory salat. For some reason, a silly idea crept in tijaniya's literature recently where it is said that solati fatih is greater than obligatory salat. Tijaniyah deny this claim but our salafi brothers continue up to this day criticizing tijaniya and even calling them kufar becus of this. They attach too much to theory writing by some dudes and then hold the grudge against their supposed enemies. I say get over this nonsense. Shia believe in all tenets of Islam as practiced by Sunni as well. So my question is, what is that "new religion" created by Shia as alleged by Abuamam? I have asked this question for some 10 yrs now but cant get answer. What i do know is there are some warped ideologies in shi'ism which do not take one out of islam but just plain silly and it is not even all of them do that. 2 Likes |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by BETATRON(m): 5:00pm On Nov 06, 2015 |
MrOlai:chuckles....this is the story of allamah hilli...I even have a copy of the article Still wondering how it became ibn hanbal and why this hasn't been mentioned in any trust worthy sunni books against the shite. 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by BETATRON(m): 5:28pm On Nov 06, 2015 |
Empiree:fine piece...its just the case of believing whatever the clergy man says about the shites and laying conclusions without a token of justice "that is asking the shites for there on opinion My guardian and friend is a shia and the koran he use is the same koran my old man uses at am. I'll term it extremism to simply belief one half of a story without listening to the other half..of course such listening should be one devoid of sentiments and emotions 2 Likes |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by MrOlai: 12:20am On Nov 08, 2015 |
AlBaqir: Abuamam: For this above, this is the reference: https://www.nairaland.com/661419/matyrdom-lady-fatimadaughter-prophet-muhammad/1#8464450 This is so unfortunate! What is the sin of the innocent child? 2 Likes
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Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by Empiree: 1:16am On Nov 08, 2015 |
MrOlai, do all shia practice self mutilation? |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by AlBaqir(m): 9:43am On Nov 08, 2015 |
STILL ON THE CALL TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE Qur'an says: Say: Provide clear proves if you are truthful Sheik Ibn Taymiyyah highlights the necessity of providing evidence: "The reply is from several angles. One of them is: evidence must be presented for the authenticity of whatever is quoted. Unless this is done, using it as proof is invalid." {Minhaj al-Sunnah al-Nabawiyyah (Muasassat Qur'ubah; 1st edition,1406H) [annotator: Dr. Muhammad Rashad salim], vol.7, p.136} Elsewhere, in rejecting a report, Ibn Taymiyyah adds: "It is said (in reply) that first and foremost, he has not mentioned any chain for this narration. Therefore, its authenticity is unknown. This is because the authenticity of quoted reports is known only through their authentic chains" {Ibid, vol.3, p.138} In line of this ground rules, I challenge Abuaman to kindly provide Sahih evidences {ahadith or athar} to support his gibberish quoted above [against Shia]. Obviously the likes of MrOlai and Fundamentalist are rookies and never up to the task. 1 Like |
Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by AlBaqir(m): 10:18am On Nov 08, 2015 |
Empiree: Self-flagellation is HARAM. Only the defiant practice it. To use this deviant practice of nonentities among the Shia to judge Shi'ism is like judging the whole Sunni, Salafi with the evil of ISIL, AL-QAEDA, BOKO-HARAM; after all they profess Sunnism. This is injustice. It is part of Salafi Propaganda against the Shia that tatbir is commanded in Shi'ism. A fool here in Ilorin, Ustaz Muhammad Ali Jabata even lied to the extent that the Iranian Shia are usually disappointed that Nigerian Shia don't practice tatbir. He even propagated that Shia doesn't perform salat, zakat, hajj, sawm etc. Anyway dear brother let this fool, MrOlai, continue his stupidity. All I need on this thread is Sahih evidences for all the claims on Shi'ism (above)
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Re: An Educative Debate Between Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal And The Shi'a by MrOlai: 10:34am On Nov 08, 2015 |
AlBaqir: You must be a joker! Sheik Ibn Taymiyyah (Rahimahullah) you consider a kafir! You still have the gut to use his statements to defend yourself! |
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