₦airaland Forum

@malvisguy212, the verse starts with "All [size=18pt]flying insects[/size] that walk on [size=20pt]all fours[/size]...." and i ask you, do reptiles which you claimed the verse was exactly talking about, fly?

Common Christian response
The text has been mistranslated
It is symbolic
It is a miracle

lexiconkabir:
@malvisguy212, the verse starts with "All [size=18pt]flying insects[/size] that walk on [size=20pt]all fours[/size]...." and i ask you, do reptiles which you claimed the verse was exactly talking about, fly?

see were you got it all wrong, I do not say the verse is specifically talking about reptile only, maby I should repeat myself again:

I provide for you the Septuagint translation ("Things which fly on wings "/"winged creatures". You know why ? Because All the new modern translation translated it based on the understanding of English so it will be impossible to know the EXACT meaning of the Hebrew word. The septuagint gave the original HEBREW MEANING which is "SHERETS'.

Alright!! sherets literally means :
1) teeming or swarming things, creepers, swarmers
1a) of insects, animals, small reptiles,
quadrupeds.

The translators try to find the closet meaning of the word . If you look at the
original in this case, it does NOT specify
"insects" only, although insects are
certainly part of the consideration.

And another thing to look into is that God is given the isrealite what to eat and not to eat,could eat, and what they could not eat.In Hebrew the words used by God gave them a clear picture of which "flying creatures" they could eat. It was not a word which was specifically talking about insects.

@malvisguy212, "All [size=18pt]flying insects[/size] that walk on [size=20pt]all fours[/size]...." what does the above means?

lexiconkabir:
@malvisguy212, "All [size=18pt]flying insects[/size] that walk on [size=20pt]all fours[/size]...." what does the above means?

how many times will I say this ? what does the Septuagint manuscript say ? The other translator only find the closets meaning of what the Septuagint translated. Why not proved your claims using the Septuagint translation ?

malvisguy212:
how many times will I say this ? what does the Septuagint manuscript say ? The other translator only find the closets meaning of what the Septuagint translated. Why not proved your claims using the Septuagint translation ?

Alright, mention one flying "sheret"(according to you) that has four legs.

lexiconkabir:
Alright, mention one flying "sheret"(according to you) that has four legs.

very very funny, you muslims usually throw insults at me, abusing me by calling me illiterate, now I wonder why an educated man like you are saying this, anyway thank you for your time, I think I have made my point clear.

malvisguy212:
very very funny, you muslims usually throw insults at me, abusing me by calling me illiterate, now I wonder why an educated man like you are saying this, anyway thank you for your time, I think I have made my point clear.

what the hell are you saying? you claimed sherets refers to things other than insects, and i asked you to mention one flying sheret with four legs that is not an insect, is that too much to ask?

lexiconkabir:
what the hell are you saying? you claimed sherets refers to things other than insects, and i asked you to mention one flying sheret with four legs that is not an insect, is that too much to ask?

bats. What next

malvisguy212:
bats. What next

Bat has four legs? yepa! Demmzy15, rilwayne001 come and see what i am sawing malvisguy212 see the picture of a bat. http://batslive.pwnet.org/img/bat.png i'm giving you a site before you say i photoshoped the picture.

lexiconkabir:
Bat has four legs? yepa! Demmzy15, rilwayne001 come and see what i am sawing malvisguy212 see the picture of a bat. http://batslive.pwnet.org/img/bat.png i'm giving you a site before you say i photoshoped the picture.

Can you tell us how many legs a bat uses to walk or crawl on the ground?

Can you post a picture of a bat walking or crawing on the ground?

dolphinheart:
Can you tell us how many legs a bat uses to walk or crawl on the ground?

Can you post a picture of a bat walking or crawing on the ground?

can you tell us how many feets a bat got? note:there is a difference between arms and feets.

lexiconkabir:
can you tell us how many feets a bat got? note:there is a difference between arms and feets.

Answering a question with a question wunt get us knowhere.

Moreover wetin concern moses or the isrealites at that time with the definition of body parts, as long as the animal uses it to crawl or walk, they are its feet or legs.
Mordern definition of body parts is different from how they saw things back then

So pls answer my question

Moreover, look at the scriptural verses you are trying to find fault with and see where it mentions feet and legs

lexiconkabir:
can you tell us how many feets a bat got? note:there is a difference between arms and feets.

how do bats crawl ?

dolphinheart:
Answering a question with a question wunt get us knowhere.

Moreover wetin concern moses or the isrealites at that time with the definition of body parts, as long as the animal uses it to crawl or walk, they are its feet or legs.
Mordern definition of body parts is different from how they saw things back then

So pls answer my question

Moreover, look at the scriptural verses you are trying to find fault with and see where it mentions feet and legs

@embolden, hope you know what you are implying? secondly, the verse makes it clearly that "....they are however insects that walks on all four of which you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hoping on the ground, of these you may eat anykind of locust, grasshoppers....." notice the connection of words, the verse suggest that there are insects that walks on all fours which has jointed legs for hopping and examples such as locust and grasshoppers were given.

malvisguy212:
how do bats crawl ?

If a child crawls with its hand and legs, does that makes the child have four legs?

lexiconkabir:
@embolden, hope you know what you are implying? secondly, the verse makes it clearly that "....they are however insects that walks on all four of which you may eat: those that have jointed legs for hoping on the ground, of these you may eat anykind of locust, grasshoppers....." notice the connection of words, the verse suggest that there are insects that walks on all fours which has jointed legs for hopping and examples such as locust and grasshoppers were given.

You have left the issue of "bat", good.

Bros, the attempt to look for problems with the scriptures will not allow one to understand how and why such scripture is written and translated in such way.

Moses and the isrealites know the insect(s) that it being reffered to. He was familiar with the fact that insects have six or more legs. So the reference is undoubtedly to their mode of travel rather than to the number of their legs. There are winged insects, including the bees, flies, and wasps, that walk with their six legs in the manner of four-legged animals. Other insects, such as the locusts, are equipped with two leaper legs and thus literally use the other four legs for crawling. These are the kinds of insects that can be eating.

So "going on all fours" is not in reference to the number of legs they have but at the way they move, and only those with specific kind(not number) of legs can be eating.

Since the emphasis on what to eat and not what to eat, verse 23 now included four legged flying creatures in not what to eat. This verse is now specific about legs of flying creatures and not insects.

I dnt understand the point of ur discussion or what you are trying to bring out, are you saying moses lied to the isrealites?
Even if your claim that the scriptures is adulterated is true and moses never made such statement. Do you thing that those that added such statement are stupid not to know how many legs the specific insects they mentioned have?
Moses was talking in hebrew in a manner that the isrealites understand so they can easily identify which insects they can eat and avoid. But you where expecting moses to be giving them biology lessons so you can find where to find fault with his statements.

New Living Translation
You may, however, eat winged
insects that walk along the
ground and have jointed legs
so they can jump.

lexiconkabir:
If a child crawls with its hand and legs, does that makes the child have four legs?

The child is crawing using all four limbs .
The child craws because it has not mastered its natural mood for movement, hence the need to use his forelimbs which biology describes as hands to support his back limbs which is reffered to as legs, the back limbs are called legs cus they are the primary limbs that support the weight during movement.
In a short time, as a child grows , it stops the use of his forelimbs as a primary limb for movement, hence it cannot be defined as legs.

@dolphinheart, my point exactly is, God Almighty words shouldnt contradict science, he is omniscient! words of ancient men contradicted contemporary science most times. most of what is in that book was attributed to Moses pbuh falsely, The God Almighty Allah(s.w.t) I serve could never have inspired a word that would contradict science, let me give an example from the Quran(The only Holy that never contradicts science), till the 17th century, scientists believed that sperm is produced from the testicles(some still believe this BS) whereas it comes from between the spine and ribs(i.e the abdomen) as it was discovered later. surprisingly around 14centuries ago, It has been revealed to Muhammad pbuh that "So let man see from what he is created! He is created from a fluid ghushing forth, proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs"(Q.86:5-7) following your logic, since It was believed that s'emen is from the testicles, Muhammad pbuh should have also said the same? well, that BTW

lexiconkabir:
@dolphinheart, my point exactly is, God Almighty words shouldnt contradict science, he is omniscient! words of ancient men contradicted contemporary science most times. most of what is in that book was attributed to Moses pbuh falsely, The God Almighty Allah(s.w.t) I serve could never have inspired a word that would contradict science, let me give an example from the Quran(The only Holy that never contradicts science), till the 17th century, scientists believed that sperm is produced from the testicles(some still believe this BS) whereas it comes from between the spine and ribs(i.e the abdomen) as it was discovered later. surprisingly around 14centuries ago, It has been revealed to Muhammad pbuh that "So let man see from what he is created! He is created from a fluid ghushing forth, proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs"(Q.86:5-7) following your logic, since It was believed that s'emen is from the testicles, Muhammad pbuh should have also said the same? well, that BTW

You have left the issue of bat, left the issue of "all fours" and now gone to contradiction of science.
You dnt know that I and others reading this thread learn from you and every other person when he/she gives his/her own view on something.

The scriptures does not go contrary to established scientific fact. The real reasons and meaning of moses statement has been explained to you. You will only see contradictions when you refuse to listen to those reasons and meanings.

I asked you if moses lied or if those that adjusted moses statement where stupiid for such glaring contradiction you claim exists to be included in the scriptures. They have seen grasshoppers for years, they know how it looks like, the writer even went on describe how some of its legs look like and yet you are insisting that the writer meant the insect has four legs! When it is not even stated so!
I think your accusation is just a bad attempt at finding fault and not about learning the truth.

Yes words of ancient men contradict science, but not words that where inspired to be written down by God for us.
Pls tell me more about how sperm is produced in the abdomen?
How is sperm produced ?
And pls what is the function of the testicles?
Are you saying that man can produce sperm if the testicles are not there/removed/ estensively damaged?

Qu'ran 18:86 Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.


Don't make it look like it's scientifically accurate.

dolphinheart:
You have left the issue of bat, left the issue of "all fours" and now gone to contradiction of science.
You dnt know that I and others reading this thread learn from you and every other person when he/she gives his/her own view on something.

firstly I never was the one that brought up the issue of bat, and if you read my post very well there is a reason why I diverted to that example and I later said it was by the way maybe you missed that!

The scriptures does not go contrary to established scientific fact. The real reasons and meaning of moses statement has been explained to you. You will only see contradictions when you refuse to listen to those reasons and meanings.

no convincing reason has been given, the scripture was clear enough that it refers to insects and those insects were thought to have 4legs[God Almighty never inspired such]

"All flying insects that walk on all fours are to
be regarded as unclean by you. There are,
however, some flying insects that walk on all
fours that you may eat..."

flying insects that walk on all fours!
so what are you trying to say here?

I asked you if moses lied or if those that adjusted moses statement where stupiid for such glaring contradiction you claim exists to be included in the scriptures. They have seen grasshoppers for years, they know how it looks like, the writer even went on describe how some of its legs look like and yet you are insisting that the writer meant the insect has four legs! When it is not even stated so!
I think your accusation is just a bad attempt at finding fault and not about learning the truth.

not my business!

Yes words of ancient men contradict science, but not words that where inspired to be written down by God for us.

Leviticus has been mutilated! hence the errors we are debating on now.

pls tell me more about how sperm is produced in the abdomen?
How is sperm produced ?

The semen contains many things. Between 95 to 98% of it consists of fructose, prostaglandin hormones, metal and salt ions, lipids, steroid hormones, enzymes, basic amines, and amino acids. All those are produced from the glands located in abdomen. Between 2 to 5% of it consists of the sperms produced in the testicles.

The Quran does not say where semen is produced. Just where it comes from during coitus!
In fact, if the Quran had said that the semen is produced in the abdomen, (“between the ribcage and the spine”), and not the testicles, it would still be
accurate. At least 95 to 98% accurate! Only 2-5% of the semen is contributed by the testicles. The rest is produced in the glands located in the pelvic cavity.

But the Quran does not say where the semen is produced, because the Quran is not 98% accurate. It is 100% ACCURATE!

Semen is stored in vesicles that lie in the abdomen. From there it is ejaculated during coitus. Lay people still think that the ejaculate comes from the testicles(I don't mean you ooo)

And pls what is the function of the testicles?
Are you saying that man can produce sperm if the testicles are not there/removed/ estensively damaged?

I never rendered the testicles useless maybe my choice of words suggested so, I have given the job of the testicles up there ^^^ pls if you wanna know more about it a little Google research could help you. thanks!

CoolUsername:
Qu'ran 18:86 Till, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout. We said: O Dhu'l-Qarneyn! Either punish or show them kindness.


Don't make it look like it's scientifically accurate.

when you don't understand Arabic, dont rely one translation, it will be erroneous for you to do that.

let's see several translations.

Until when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he perceived it setting in a miry spring... [Abdul Majid
Daryabadi].

Until, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he saw it setting in a spring of hot and black muddy water... [Ali Unal]

After looking at a few translations(including yours) of the verse it becomes clear what the verse is saying. The verse clearly says Dhul-Qarnayn travelled to the end of the land (i.e. until he reached the sea), as far west as he could travel. When he travelled west and reached the coast, there was no more land in this direction(on his route to travel westward), there was only the ocean, and the sun was setting. And as he looked across the murky body of water he saw the sun setting at the horizon.

for you to understand what I'm saying, look at the photo and tell me what you see, whatever you see is the same thing Dhul-Qarnayn saw, and that is what the Quran described! so my friend its your misunderstanding that about the alleged mistake.

lexiconkabir:
when you don't understand Arabic, dont rely one translation, it will be erroneous for you to do that.

let's see several translations.

Until when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he perceived it setting in a miry spring... [Abdul Majid
Daryabadi].

Until, when he reached the setting-place of the sun, he saw it setting in a spring of hot and black muddy water... [Ali Unal]

After looking at a few translations(including yours) of the verse it becomes clear what the verse is saying. The verse clearly says Dhul-Qarnayn travelled to the end of the land (i.e. until he reached the sea), as far west as he could travel. When he travelled west and reached the coast, there was no more land in this direction(on his route to travel westward), there was only the ocean, and the sun was setting. And as he looked across the murky body of water he saw the sun setting at the horizon.

for you to understand what I'm saying, look at the photo and tell me what you see, whatever you see is the same thing Dhul-Qarnayn saw, and that is what the Quran described! so my friend its your misunderstanding that about the alleged mistake.

It doesn't answer the question as to where the sun sets, which is admittedly an erroneous.

Besides it would be stretch to say that the man had never seen a sunset before.

CoolUsername:
It doesn't answer the question as to where the sun sets, which is admittedly an erroneous.

Besides it would be stretch to say that the man had never seen a sunset before.

as usual, self denial, after they've been replied, although i would have done some grammatical analysis for you to understand better, but you dont understand arabic, so, i saved myself all that stress, by giving you that simple reply, anyway i am not obligated to shove my answer down your throat, its never my own problem if you accept it or not, i did that for the large audience reading this, every rational mind that must have read my reply and saw the picture i posted would understand what i'm saying. take care!

lexiconkabir:
firstly I never was the one that brought up the issue of bat, and if you read my post very well there is a reason why I diverted to that example and I later said it was by the way maybe you missed that!

Yes , you did not bring up the issue of bat, but your question let to it, at the first mention of bat, you invited others to see the post, but now that you have been fully answered on the issue of bats walking with 4 legs , you did not comment on it again.
The issue of bat is in the way, cus its an example of a flying creature that walks on ”four legs”(notice I did not say "all four" as verse 23 let's us know they where unclean to the isrealites.

no convincing reason has been given, the scripture was clear enough that it refers to insects and those insects were thought to have 4legs[God Almighty never inspired such]

"All flying insects that walk on all fours are to
be regarded as unclean by you. There are,
however, some flying insects that walk on all
fours that you may eat..."

flying insects that walk on all fours!
so what are you trying to say here?

I dnt think any reason can convince you, the reason for starting the thread is to find fault with the scriptures, accepting the reasons giving will affect ur already layed down ideaology of the scriptures which is not an easy thing to accept.
You have been shown with facts that moses was reffering to flying creatures and not only insects. It is left for the translator to determine if at each use of that word,he is specifically refering to insects or other creatures that can fly.

Your thoughts/opinions and reasoning are different from moses, the isrealites and those who understand the statement " all four". You have been told Its in refference to how some living things move and not that they have four legs. No one could have taught a small group of people that insects have four legs, talk less of hundreds of thousands and later millions. Even a small child then and now knows how many legs a grasshopper has as moses even described the function and position of one of the legs for easier understanding of which flying creatures can be eaten .

Its for those that might not understand the verse that a translator translated it this way
You may, however, eat winged insects that walk along the ground and have jointed legs so they can jump.

People who are just looking for fault might not see the twist in ur statement and the verses you quoted afterwards, u are arguing on " four legs" while quoting scriptures that says " all four".

not my business!

Good to note that you are not interested in the true explanation of lev 11: 20-23.

Leviticus has been mutilated! hence the errors we are debating on now.

You cannot provide the real text of those verses.
You cannot provide the original words of moses regarding the flying creatures that can be eating .
You cannot provide the people who changed that particular test. Yet you say some people changed it.

You cannot provide any evidence except that you feel it was not moses that penned those words.

Unless the lawyer wants to collect your money, he will not accompany you to court with these ur views, and someone who is truthfull will not support ur views.

The semen contains many things. Between 95 to 98% of it consists of fructose, prostaglandin hormones, metal and salt ions, lipids, steroid hormones, enzymes, basic amines, and amino acids. All those are produced from the glands located in abdomen. Between 2 to 5% of it consists of the sperms produced in the testicles.

Wish you could mention one or two of these glands and we could find out where its located.
You could even provide scientific source of its location in the human body for us.

The Quran does not say where semen is produced. Just where it comes from during coitus!
In fact, if the Quran had said that the semen is produced in the abdomen, (“between the ribcage and the spine”), and not the testicles, it would still be accurate. At least 95 to 98% accurate! Only 2-5% of the semen is contributed by the testicles. The rest is produced in the glands located in the pelvic cavity.

I like how you use words in relation to ur prophets discription of the human anatomy.
So the abdomen is between the rib cage and the spine?
Or rather the pelvic cavity is between the rib cage and the spine?

I think you have to give us a clearer understanding of where the ribcage is, where the spine is, and what is between the both of them.
Also add the glands so we can know if its located in the abdomen or pelvic cavity.

But the Quran does not say where the semen is produced, because the Quran is not 98% accurate. It is 100% ACCURATE!

Semen is stored in vesicles that lie in the abdomen. From there it is ejaculated during coitus. Lay people still think that the ejaculate comes from the testicles(I don't mean you ooo)

You also need to add the source of these ur statements, make sure they are from scientific sources and not religious o.

I never rendered the testicles useless maybe my choice of words suggested so, I have given the job of the testicles up there ^^^ pls if you wanna know more about it a little Google research could help you. thanks!

Can you provide me a link on where to do the research?