Russia’s newest silent submarine is even stealthier than its sneaky predecessor.
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The stealth capabilities of Russia’s new Lada-class diesel-electric submarines far exceed those of their predecessors, Admiraty Shipyard’s CEO Alexander Buzakov told the Russian press.
According to Buzakov, the new vessels are even stealthier than Russian Kilo-class submarines, thought to be one of the quietest diesel-electric submarine classes in the world and dubbed "black holes" for their ability to "disappear” from sonars.

The new submarines are able to maintain such a low profile thanks to a clever implementation of a next-generation anti-reflective acoustic coating and a new improved hydro-acoustic system, Buzakov said.


He also added that during the new submarines’ construction and design process, the development team managed to gather a lot of valuable data which, among other things, allowed them to significantly improve the Kilo-class submarines as well.

The Lada-class submarines are designed to defend coastlines against ships and other submarines, gather intelligence, provide surveillance and reconnaissance missions, and act as a mother ship for special forces. With its new air-independent propulsion plant, a Lada submarine can remain submerged for as many as 25 days. With its vast array of weapon systems, the Lada is also world’s first non-nuclear submarine to be equipped with specialized launchers for cruise missiles.

Noted

NO ONE MESSES WITH UNCLE SAM.
And Russia knows that.

Am curious, why going back to the age of diesel powered submarine again ?

whitecloth:
Am curious, why going back to the age of diesel powered submarine again ?

They can be stealthier than nuclear powered submarines. Even US knows that cos Germany has something similar.

But the shock now is the ability of the submarine to remain under water for 25 days. This can be deadly.

iblawi:


They can be stealthier than nuclear powered submarines. Even US knows that cos Germany has something similar.

But the shock now is the ability of the submarine to remain under water for 25 days. This can be deadly.

Dollopheads hyping diesel electric subs simply because it's Russian.

Nothing new here. You fvcking liars,can you imagine the OP claiming the sub is the world's first non nuclear sub that can carry cruise missiles,what a mockery.

Israel uses Dolphin class German made diesel-electric submarines with as much or even greater stealth capability as its Russian counterpart,what do you think we load on them,lollipops right All Israeli Dolphin class Submarines carry cruise missiles,some tipped with nukes.

Just because Russia builds an air independent propulsion diesel-electric submarine does not mean you should vend it off as Russia's new monopoly in advanced naval warfare.Others have been doing it and even doing it far better.

On the stealth capability of the submarine based on the coating of the boat.I'll call you out once again.

The Vanguard Class submarines of the Royal Navy are built with same coating for advanced stealth capability.Note the Vanguard Class subs are nuclear powered and they are UK's number one nuclear detterrent so they carry ICBM's.

Again they try to pride a coating design for a submarine supposedly carrying cruise missiles when nuclear powered subs carrying ballistic warheads have already employed the same ahead of them.

If this is how Propaganda is produced in Russia,you better call UNC SAM to teach you.Dollop head liars

iblawi:


They can be stealthier than nuclear powered submarines. Even US knows that cos Germany has something similar.

But the shock now is the ability of the submarine to remain under water for 25 days. This can be deadly.

25-days endurance in water is deadly? Lolzz
-Russia Victor-III class submarine has 80-days endurance.
-Russia Sierra Class Submarine has 200-days endurance.
-Even New Russian Akula-class Submarine has 100-days endurance.
This is to show that there is no high-end weapon in the world.
25-days endurance is just too small for this type of new generation Submarine and the only interesting thing about the submarine is its low observatory features.

ValerianSteel:
cc Mazeltov,Vedaxcool dollopheads hyping diesel electric subs simply because it's Russian.

Nothing new here. You fvcking liars,can you imagine the OP claiming the sub is the world's first non nuclear sub that can carry cruise missiles,what a mockery.

Israel uses Dolphin class German made diesel-electric submarines with as much or even greater stealth capability as its Russian counterpart,what do you think we load on them,lollipops right All Israeli Dolphin class Submarines carry cruise missiles,some tipped with nukes.

Just because Russia builds an air independent propulsion diesel-electric submarine does not mean you should vend it off as Russia's new monopoly in advanced naval warfare.Others have been doing it and even doing it far better.

On the stealth capability of the submarine based on the coating of the boat.I'll call you out once again.

The Vanguard Class submarines of the Royal Navy are built with same coating for advanced stealth capability.Note the Vanguard Class subs are nuclear powered and they are UK's number one nuclear detterrent so they carry ICBM's.

Again they try to pride a coating design for a submarine supposedly carrying cruise missiles when nuclear powered subs carrying ballistic warheads have already employed the same ahead of them.

If this is how Propaganda is produced in Russia,you better call UNC SAM to teach you.Dollop head liars

lolzz, take it easy bro!!
Yea Vangurd is the number one British Nuclear deterrent Submarine loaded with Trident-D5 ICBM with about 300Kt each (not confirmed) but I fink when Submarines are loaded with warheads and no matter how stealthy they are, the warhead inside them will always give away their location to the enemy's radar. Submarine can be stealthy but its weapons are not stealthy. - although that's my opinion about it.
The dude was even surprised and amazed at its 25-days endurance in water when American Virginal-class Submarine has unlimited endurance and range.

The German and soyuz japanese class submarines are the best in the world.. Stop hyping Russia, they usually have logistic problems and much of their armament is outdated...

mazeltov:

lolzz, take it easy bro!!
Yea Vangurd is the number one British Nuclear deterrent Submarine loaded with Trident-D5 ICBM with about 300Kt each (not confirmed) but I fink when Submarines are loaded with warheads and no matter how stealthy they are, the warhead inside them will always give away their location to the enemy's radar. Submarine can be stealthy but its weapons are not stealthy. - although that's my opinion about it.
The dude was even surprised and amazed at its 25-days endurance in water when American Virginal-class Submarine has unlimited endurance and range.

The vulnerability of the submarine due to its weapons is covered by a very good active and passive sonar.The Vanguard for example uses new generation sonar specifically modified for the Vanguard class.Definitely by the time it would take enemy boat to detect it,the sensors on the Vanguard would have locked on the enemy boat.Vanguard has good hunting system as leverage.


The Virginia class subs is bad ass but the US navy incorporated photonic masts instead of conventional persicopes,the photonic mast uses high res camera,laser range finder,sensor radar which gives it an advantage but it can be easily identified as a US Virginia class sub,stealth rendered vulnerable,I hope they make adjustment to that.Apart from that,the sub is an beast,its sonar takes it all.

The Virginia and the Astute of the Royal Navy are the quietest subs currently in naval warfare.The Astute though not comparable in range to Virginia class,however it's stealth is unrivaled behind Virginia class.

espionagesavvy:
The German and soyuz japanese class submarines are the best in the world.. Stop hyping Russia, they usually have logistic problems and much of their armament is outdated...

Lol,anything outdated can be updated and currently Russia is doing so with it's Navy,we see corvettes that can now carry cruise missiles from the Russian Navy,their subs are also edging in to balance off on stealth.Their once outdated Navy is taking a new shape.

ValerianSteel:
Dollopheads hyping diesel electric subs simply because it's Russian.

Nothing new here. You fvcking liars,can you imagine the OP claiming the sub is the world's first non nuclear sub that can carry cruise missiles,what a mockery.

Israel uses Dolphin class German made diesel-electric submarines with as much or even greater stealth capability as its Russian counterpart,what do you think we load on them,lollipops right All Israeli Dolphin class Submarines carry cruise missiles,some tipped with nukes.

Just because Russia builds an air independent propulsion diesel-electric submarine does not mean you should vend it off as Russia's new monopoly in advanced naval warfare.Others have been doing it and even doing it far better.

On the stealth capability of the submarine based on the coating of the boat.I'll call you out once again.

The Vanguard Class submarines of the Royal Navy are built with same coating for advanced stealth capability.Note the Vanguard Class subs are nuclear powered and they are UK's number one nuclear detterrent so they carry ICBM's.

Again they try to pride a coating design for a submarine supposedly carrying cruise missiles when nuclear powered subs carrying ballistic warheads have already employed the same ahead of them.

If this is how Propaganda is produced in Russia,you better call UNC SAM to teach you.Dollop head liars

Dollop head liars indeed lmaos and lols seems appropriate here

vedaxcool:


Dollop head liars indeed lmaos and lols seems appropriate here

In other news,Russia just named the US as a threat to Russia's National Security.That means the red line has been drawn,I await Washignton's response to this development.

ValerianSteel:
In other news,Russia just named the US as a threat to Russia's National Security.That means the red line has been drawn,I await Washignton's response to this development.

I keep wondering why this dollops think Russia will win a war with the US when it barely has allies that would stick their head for bloated ego putin? China? Iran? Who will fight along side them? Maybe north Korea lol the us have the upper hand have almost encircled Russia which means in the event of war it will mostly be fought on other territory.

ValerianSteel:
Dollopheads hyping diesel electric subs simply because it's Russian.

Nothing new here. You fvcking liars,can you imagine the OP claiming the sub is the world's first non nuclear sub that can carry cruise missiles,what a mockery.

Israel uses Dolphin class German made diesel-electric submarines with as much or even greater stealth capability as its Russian counterpart,what do you think we load on them,lollipops right All Israeli Dolphin class Submarines carry cruise missiles,some tipped with nukes.

Just because Russia builds an air independent propulsion diesel-electric submarine does not mean you should vend it off as Russia's new monopoly in advanced naval warfare.Others have been doing it and even doing it far better.

On the stealth capability of the submarine based on the coating of the boat.I'll call you out once again.

The Vanguard Class submarines of the Royal Navy are built with same coating for advanced stealth capability.Note the Vanguard Class subs are nuclear powered and they are UK's number one nuclear detterrent so they carry ICBM's.

Again they try to pride a coating design for a submarine supposedly carrying cruise missiles when nuclear powered subs carrying ballistic warheads have already employed the same ahead of them.

If this is how Propaganda is produced in Russia,you better call UNC SAM to teach you.Dollop head liars

Guy do you even know what you are saying? You are just saying everything right to left with no relevance to what you quoted. Every technology has his own weakness. I mentioned it that Germany has similar technology so why are you making a fool of yourself?

Russia has nuclear submarine just like other world powers even Brazil will get 1 soon so stop making it look as if only US and UK has nuclear sub but nuclear submarines are not as quiet as what we are talking about. As of today I can only confirm Germany and Russia have such diesel - electric subs.

mazeltov:
25-days endurance in water is deadly? Lolzz
-Russia Victor-III class submarine has 80-days endurance.
-Russia Sierra Class Submarine has 200-days endurance.
-Even New Russian Akula-class Submarine has 100-days endurance.
This is to show that there is no high-end weapon in the world.
25-days endurance is just too small for this type of new generation Submarine and the only interesting thing about the submarine is its low observatory features.

Guy we are talking of a very different technology from what you are saying. Quietness is the main feature we are looking at. India, China, Russia, US, UK, france and others have nuclear powered submarines that can remain under water for 20+ years so why posting all this rubbish. Do you know the damage that such submarine can cause if in an enemy territory for 20 days?

We are talking of what can see you that you can't see and not how long you can remain in water.

vedaxcool:


I keep wondering why this dollops think Russia will win a war with the US when it barely has allies that would stick their head for bloated ego putin? China? Iran? Who will fight along side them? Maybe north Korea lol the us have the upper hand they are almost encircling Russia which means in the event of war it will mostly be fought on other territory.

Exactly,Russia stands to loose a lot.NATO has for example the nuclear sharing program that allows NATO members to store nukes in member nations without nukes of their own in the case of a nuclear war,these countries will act on NATO's orders and use them.

US has armed a few including Turkey and Netherlands,Russia has every reason to be scared of the US,Russia is encircled by US allies stationed with defense shields against Russian ICBM's.

Russia also claims US has biological weapons laboratories surrounding it.US has Russia in a tight place.Russia would first need to keep all threats to it's borders away before dreaming of taking on the US.

In an all out war,Russia's one eyed partners would be weary of weighing in seeing that they too have readily available enemies to worry about.

ValerianSteel:
Exactly,Russia stands to loose a lot.NATO has for example the nuclear sharing program that allows NATO members to store nukes in member nations without nukes of their own in the case of a nuclear war,these countries will act on NATO's orders and use them.

US has armed a few including Turkey and Netherlands,Russia has every reason to be scared of the US,Russia is encircled by US allies stationed with defense shields against Russian ICBM's.

Russia also claims US has biological weapons laboratories surrounding it.US has Russia in a tight place.Russia would first need to keep all threats to it's borders away before dreaming of taking on the US.

In an all out war,Russia's one eyed partners would be weary of weighing in seeing that they too have readily available enemies to worry about.

I laugh in Spanish

Do you think Russians are as dull as you are?
Is even funny that your world power will need the help of over 30 countries to defeat Russia. Why can't you compare them alone?

Europeans are not as dull as you think. They won't fight a neighbor next to them for America thousand of miles. away.

iblawi:


Guy we are talking of a very different technology from what you are saying. Quietness is the main feature we are looking at. India, China, Russia, US, UK, france and others have nuclear powered submarines that can remain under water for 20+ years so why posting all this rubbish. Do you know the damage that such submarine can cause if in an enemy territory for 20 days?

We are talking of what can see you that you can't see and not how long you can remain in water.

you are repeating my point sir!! Check my last post. I said the most important thing about the submarine is it low observatory features and not its endurance in water and mind you, quietness doesn't mean total invisibility. Stealth doesn't mean you can be picked by enemy's submarine's radar

mazeltov:
you are repeating my point sir!! Check my last post. I said the most important thing about the submarine is it low observatory features and not its endurance in water and mind you, quietness doesn't mean total invisibility. Stealth doesn't mean you can be picked by enemy's submarine's radar

My friend what radar will detect submarine in water? radar can only detect it when it's not submerged. I believe you don't know what you are saying, if my sonar detect your sub or vessels first, It will deploy torpedoes first which will sink your submarines and vessels. I guess you now know how important quietness means in proper submarine warfare. Yes, low observatory feature of the submarine makes its dangerous.

iblawi:

My friend what radar will detect submarine in water? radar can only detect it when it's not submerged. I believe you don't know what you are saying, if my sonar detect your sub or vessels first, It will deploy torpedoes first which will sink your submarines and vessels. I guess you now know how important quietness means in proper submarine warfare. Yes, low observatory feature of the submarine makes its dangerous.

lolzz, Listen attentively.
-Your ability to hide in water depends on the sophistication of your enemy's sonar array system. And when it comes to prolong engagement in water, such Submarine may not last long due to their low endurance level in water especially when engaging a submarine like US-Virgirna class which carries multiple AN/BPS-16 surface search radar with unlimited endurance range in water and
yes queitness is good at least it is part of low observatory tech but quietness doesn't mean complete invisibility from sonar. Some sonar doesn't work with sound technology before they pick out submarine.
Quietness is also good when it comes to land attack. Russian Akula submarine sailed to American's coast undetected due to its quitness and if it wanted to attack the coast, it would easily do that undetected.

Iblawi a subs quietness does not equate invisibility.One thing you seem not to understand about the nuclear subs is that they are equipped with advanced sonar.They are at advantage of seeing what's miles away,the sonar can pick up satelite pings on enemy boats a thousand miles away,they are built specifically with sound range system that differentiate the noise made from biologicals(dolphins,sharks,whales,school of fish) to that of noise emmitteds from within ands outside another vessel.

For example, a boat like HMS Vengeance of the Vanguard Class is built to identify vessels from the lowest depth when submerged,analyse their comunications,listen intently on their satelite ping.Once these parameters are met,it has the first strike advantage of launching torpedoes to take out any such vessel.



Where a sub fails in quietness,it doubles in good hunting systems.

ValerianSteel:
Iblawi a subs quietness does not equate invisibility.One thing you seem not to understand about the nuclear subs is that they are equipped with advanced sonar.They are at advantage of seeing what's miles away,the sonar can pick up satelite pings on enemy boats a thousand miles away,they are built specifically with sound range system that differentiate the noise made from biologicals(dolphins,sharks,whales,school of fish) to that of noise emmitteds from within ands outside another vessel.

For example, a boat like HMS Vengeance of the Vanguard Class is built to identify vessels from the lowest depth when submerged,analyse their comunications,listen intently on their satelite ping.Once these parameters are met,it has the first strike advantage of launching torpedoes to take out any such vessel.



Where a sub fails in quietness,it doubles in good hunting systems.

this is new year bro!! Stop wasting your topnotch explanation on someone who lifts contentment in orchestrating complete ignorance about military hardwares.
It is obvious that these kids started following international news when Gotv and star time came into Nigeria. So just chill and allow them to swim the the pool of ignorance. Good morning.

mazeltov:
this is new year bro!! Stop wasting your topnotch explanation on someone who lifts contentment in orchestrating complete ignorance about military hardwares.
It is obvious that these kids started following international news when Gotv and star time came into Nigeria. So just chill and allow them to swim the the pool of ignorance. Good morning.

Look at this guy.

I stopped commenting cos I felt you guy know nothing about warfare. You keep shouting US and UK nuclear sub have this and that forgetting that they don't have monopoly of this technologies. The fact that US will need help of over 30 countries in order to defeat Russia is enough to prove that Russia has more than enough.

You said rubbish about detect a submarine thousands of miles away and sinking it. And I kept wondering the type of torpedoes that will sink a submarine hundreds of miles away. Do you even know about warfare?

Dummy FYI, when it comes to rockets, fighter jets and submarine Russia is far above US.

I stop posting comments cos I feel you don't Know what you are saying.

mazeltov:
this is new year bro!! Stop wasting your topnotch explanation on someone who lifts contentment in orchestrating complete ignorance about military hardwares.
It is obvious that these kids started following international news when Gotv and star time came into Nigeria. So just chill and allow them to swim the the pool of ignorance. Good morning.

Thanks.Good morning to you too.

iblawi:


Look at this guy.

I stopped commenting cos I felt you guy know nothing about warfare. You keep shouting US and UK nuclear sub have this and that forgetting that they don't have monopoly of this technologies. The fact that US will need help of over 30 countries in order to defeat Russia is enough to prove that Russia has more than enough.

You said rubbish about detect a submarine thousands of miles away and sinking it. And I kept wondering the type of torpedoes that will sink a submarine hundreds of miles away. Do you even know about warfare?

Dummy FYI, when it comes to rockets, fighter jets and submarine Russia is far above US.

I stop posting comments cos I feel you don't Know what you are saying.

It's official.

I can't comprehend simple logic is stamped on your forehead

iblawi:


Look at this guy.

I stopped commenting cos I felt you guy know nothing about warfare. You keep shouting US and UK nuclear sub have this and that forgetting that they don't have monopoly of this technologies. The fact that US will need help of over 30 countries in order to defeat Russia is enough to prove that Russia has more than enough.

You said rubbish about detect a submarine thousands of miles away and sinking it. And I kept wondering the type of torpedoes that will sink a submarine hundreds of miles away. Do you even know about warfare?

Dummy FYI, when it comes to rockets, fighter jets and submarine Russia is far above US.

I stop posting comments cos I feel you don't Know what you are saying.

Bro, US's Virginia Class Sub is the most sophisticated in the whole world. Read up more about it. UK's Astute has the most sophisticated sonar sailing in any navy as at today.

I have finally seen the comparison basis of the newest Russian sub, it is not the most noiseless, rather it is most noiseless among the Russian classes. Someone was talking about its endurance of 28 days undeer water, Norway's diesel sub has endurance of 58 day!

Please don't get me wrong. Russia is developed and powerful. So also are her adversaries.

The thing about US "needing" NATO to defeat Russia is a misunderstood strategic alliance çoncept. Russia knows better not to take on US alone. Ask the craziest SU president , Nikita Khrushchev, what happened over the Cuban Missile Crisis. US had literally declared war on Russia and the countdown was on with both militaries on red alert for the final "go". There were already two standoffs ; a Russian navy contigent blockade by US Navy on pacific and armoured battle formation along the Berlin line in Europe. If you know war, you should understand what that means. The most hot headed Soviet president known, knew better that it was going to be a " MAD" case, so he did the wise thing by appealing to JFK to reciprocate his trust by ordering his troops back by 100m after he - Khrushchev had ordered his troops back by same 100m. That led to the stand down which difussed the war buildup.

Essence of the story is to tell you that the alliances and bases US has around only further enhances its strategic advantage over Russia and not sign of weakness as you mistake it.

Then talking about rocketry. Honestly there are very few countries that are fully independent and solely capable. That leaves it to US, Russia and probably UK. Every other countries depend on one another for different aspects and components of the technology. Now saying Russia is best is not so correct. Get your facts right.

On fighter jets/ military air crafts, it is grossly erroneous to make a categorical statement as that Russia leads the military aviation. Whereas everyone knows that only the US Navy is the fourth largest air force in the world. No aircraft matches the F-22 raptor yet in any military service. The B2B is still feared most as the deadliest strategic bomber. Now, F-35 is the most advanced joint strike fighter flown by any air force. No Navy matches the US Navy Saltdog. Neither is there any air force flying drones as capable as MQ3 Reaper. Yet you talk down such airpower?

Bro, Russia is good and powerful. But as at today, no military machine known to any human civilisation is as powerful as the US military. Fact!

And for the guy asking for the danger in a sub detecting an enemy sub from a far distance, what the hunting sub will do is simply to communicate the enemy sub's position and vector to an ASW aircraft which will race up and bomb it with enough depth charges before finishing it up as scrap for the fishes.

I feel so bad seeing baseless and biased comments here, just because you don't like the US doesn't make their weapons inferior to the russians.

Someone is even touting a russian sub capable of submerging for ONLY 25 DAYS as a badass war machine....WTF!!!!!!!!
Even north koreans subs can do better than that.

ValerianSteel:
Iblawi a subs quietness does not equate invisibility.One thing you seem not to understand about the nuclear subs is that they are equipped with advanced sonar.They are at advantage of seeing what's miles away,the sonar can pick up satelite pings on enemy boats a thousand miles away,they are built specifically with sound range system that differentiate the noise made from biologicals(dolphins,sharks,whales,school of fish) to that of noise emmitteds from within ands outside another vessel.

For example, a boat like HMS Vengeance of the Vanguard Class is built to identify vessels from the lowest depth when submerged,analyse their comunications,listen intently on their satelite ping.Once these parameters are met,it has the first strike advantage of launching torpedoes to take out any such vessel.



Where a sub fails in quietness,it doubles in good hunting systems.

God bless you for this insightful and educative piece.

iblawi:


Look at this guy.

I stopped commenting cos I felt you guy know nothing about warfare. You keep shouting US and UK nuclear sub have this and that forgetting that they don't have monopoly of this technologies. The fact that US will need help of over 30 countries in order to defeat Russia is enough to prove that Russia has more than enough.

You said rubbish about detect a submarine thousands of miles away and sinking it. And I kept wondering the type of torpedoes that will sink a submarine hundreds of miles away. Do you even know about warfare?

Dummy FYI, when it comes to rockets, fighter jets and submarine Russia is far above US.

I stop posting comments cos I feel you don't Know what you are saying.

kk

iblawi:


Look at this guy.

I stopped commenting cos I felt you guy know nothing about warfare. You keep shouting US and UK nuclear sub have this and that forgetting that they don't have monopoly of this technologies. The fact that US will need help of over 30 countries in order to defeat Russia is enough to prove that Russia has more than enough.

You said rubbish about detect a submarine thousands of miles away and sinking it. And I kept wondering the type of torpedoes that will sink a submarine hundreds of miles away. Do you even know about warfare?

Dummy FYI, when it comes to rockets, fighter jets and submarine Russia is far above US.

I stop posting comments cos I feel you don't Know what you are saying.

Please tell those morrons, U.S that is coward of the whole universe. U.S should face Russia one on one na and stop pushing its puppets to fight Russia. That has happened in the past and RUssia defeated the United west three good times and Hitler's days were the last time Russia defeated the empire of lies.

It will defeat it again once and for all. The next frontier is already on the table. A multi-polar world. Don't mind those dubm ass super troll, watching only CNN and checking CIA fact Book lies... WHat they don;t understand is Russia's military capabilities.. Now I will show you one.

In this video bellow, a misille (it seems to be the Vodopad family but unknown for now) can travel under water and launch close to its target. The Vodopad was innitially designed to kill under water subs but now has more capabilities. Now Imagine a sub that is in the middle of an ocean 1300km from its target and launch this type of missile you are about to see in the video bellow..


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rogsX9sqaKU

That is part of the sub's manuevability added to Russia's Naval capabilities that the U.S can only dream of for now.(That is any Missile can launch from Land, air, Water, Under water subs, Sea...)

Don't mind those crooks.. They know virtually nothing and are bunch olodos eating pure propaganda every now and then. I have said it before, that U.S is just an empty vessel and likes blowing its trumpet all the time building stupid bases like an idi0t. While Russia is that David guy in their brainwash book.

THose cr0oks saying garbage know nothing about military hardware and know how.

They know virtually nothing about Military hardware and I have said it over and over again..