₦airaland Forum

vooks:
The bible was given by all who authored it. The church is anybody who believes in Jesus Christ. What do you mean where the church is?

There was never a bible for the first 400 years of christianity, so I don't understand how all those who authored it gave us the bible. There were several books claming to be scripture but scripture had to be declared so authoritatively. Who did this declaration?
How do you know who authored the Gospel according to Luke for instance and how did it become scripture?


You have a point about church being a community of believers, this was especially true when Jesus established his church and it was clear what the true church was with the Apostles as Leaders. However, we know that from early days there were heretical groups claiming to know the correct teachings. Some even claiming Jesus is not God. We also know that there are now several thousand denominations claiming to know the truth with differing doctrines (e.g. holy eucharist real body of Jesus or symbolic, infant baptism valid or not etc.) and no unity.
Where is the one church Jesus established? How did this church operate in the early years? Did Jesus really establish the lack of unity which his apparent among the 'anybody who believes in Christ' comment you made?

vooks:
I'm burying somebody today. I will get time to tear through Catholicism satanism as I usually do. Ask dmandy and Syncan


What you may want to do in the mean time is demonstrate
1. Mary's sinlessness aka immaculate conception
2. Mary's perpetual virginity from scriptures

First of all you think you have knowledge but you clearly don't. Mary's sinlessness is not equal to Immaculate Conception. Her sinlessness simply refers to her personal holiness while her immaculate conception refers to her protection from the sin of Adam aka Original Sin. Total fail. The Eastern Orthodox for example, teach her sinlessness but reject the immaculate conception doctrine. Now as to your question is it to be answered via sola scriptura? If so can you please demonstrate to me where the Bible teaches sola scriptura? Now I believe in the "traditions which were handed down by the apostles through the word of mouth". This is what the fathers of the church have taught us:

Origen
The Book [the Protoevangelium ] of James
[records] that the brethren of Jesus were
sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom
he married before Mary. Now those who
say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary
in virginity to the end, so that body of
hers which was appointed to minister to
the Word . . . might not know intercourse
with a man after the Holy Spirit came into
her and the power from on high
overshadowed her. And I think it in
harmony with reason that Jesus was the
first fruit among men of the purity which
consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary
was among women. For it were not pious
to ascribe to any other than to her the
first fruit of virginity ( Commentary on
Matthew 2:17 [ A.D. 248 ]).
Hilary of Poitiers
If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been
Mary's sons and not those taken from
Joseph's former marriage, she would
never have been given over in the moment
of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle
John as his mother, the Lord saying to
each, "Woman, behold your son," and to
John, "Behold your mother" [John
19:26-27], as he bequeathed filial love to
a disciple as a consolation to the one
desolate ( Commentary on Matthew 1:4
[ A.D. 354 ]).
Athanasius
Let those, therefore, who deny that the
Son is by nature from the Father and
proper to his essence deny also that He
took true human flesh from the ever-virgin
Mary ( Discourses against the Arians 2:70
[ A.D. 360 ]).
Epiphanius
We believe in one God, the Father
almighty, maker of all things, both visible
and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus
Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men
and for our salvation came down and took
flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the
holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit
( The Man Well-Anchored 120 [ A.D. 374 ]).
Jerome
But as regards Victorinus, I assert what
has already been proven from the gospel
—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the
brethren of the Lord not as being sons of
Mary but brethren in the sense I have
explained, that is to say, brethren in point
of kinship, not by nature. ( Against
Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary
19 [ A.D. 383 ]).
Didymus the Blind
It helps us to understand the terms
"firstborn" and "only begotten" when the
Evangelist tells that Mary remained a
virgin "until she brought forth her firstborn
son" [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary,
who is to be honored and praised above
all others, marry anyone else, nor did she
ever become the mother of anyone else,
but even after childbirth she remained
always and forever an immaculate
virgin" ( The Trinity 3:4 [ A.D. 386 ]).
Ambrose of Milan
Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in
her only dearly beloved Son set forth so
great an example of maternal virtue; for
neither have you sweeter children [than
Jesus], nor did the virgin seek the
consolation of being able to bear another
son ( Letters 63:111 [ A.D. 388])
Pope Siricius I
You had good reason to be horrified at
the thought that another birth might issue
from the same virginal womb from which
Christ was born according to the Flesh.
For the Lord Jesus would never have
chosen to be born of a virgin if he had
ever judged that she would be so
incontinent as to contaminate with the
seed of human intercourse the birthplace
of the Lord's body, chat court of the
eternal King ( Letter to Bishop Anysius
[ A.D. 392 ]).
Augustine
In being born of a virgin who chose to
remain a virgin even before she knew who
was to be born other, Christ wanted to
approve virginity rather than to impose it.
And he wanted virginity to be of free
choice even in that woman in whom he
took upon himself the form of a slave
( Holy Virginity 4:4 [ A.D. 401 ]).
Leporius
We confess, therefore, that our Lord and
God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
born of the Father before the ages, and in
times most recent, made man of the Holy
Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary ( Document
of Amendment 3 [ A.D. 426 ]).
Cyril of Alexandria
The Word himself, coming into the
Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for
himself his own temple from the
substance of the Virgin and came forth
from her a man in all that could be
externally discerned, while interiorly He
was true God. Therefore he kept his
Mother a virgin even after her childbearing
( Against Those Who Do Not Wish to
Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother
of God 4 [ A.D. 430 ]).

vooks:
I'm burying somebody today. I will get time to tear through Catholicism satanism as I usually do. Ask dmandy and Syncan


What you may want to do in the mean time is demonstrate
1. Mary's sinlessness aka immaculate conception
2. Mary's perpetual virginity from scriptures

Mary's Immaculate Concepton? Of course you will reject these as well because they are not in the Bible, even though the Bible does not teach sola scriptura:

Justin Martyr
[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that
the course that was taken by
disobedience in the beginning through the
agency of the serpent might be also the
very course by which it would be put
down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled,
conceived the word of the serpent and
bore disobedience and death. But the
Virgin Mary received faith and joy when
the angel Gabriel announced to her the
glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord
would come upon her and the power of
the Most High would overshadow her, for
which reason the Holy One being born of
her is the Son of God. And she replied,
"Be it done unto me according to your
word" (Luke 1:38) ( Dialogue with Trypho
100 [ A.D. 155 ]).
Irenaeus
Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is
found to be obedient, saying, "Behold, 0
Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me
according to your word." Eve . . . who
was then still a virgin although she had
Adam for a husband — for in paradise
they were both naked but were not
ashamed; for, having been created only a
short time, they had no understanding of
the procreation of children . . . having
become disobedient [sin], was made the
cause of death for herself and for the
whole human race; so also Mary,
betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a
virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made
the cause of salvation for herself and for
the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot
of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the
obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve
had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary
loosed through faith ( Against Heresies
3:22:24 [ A.D. 189 ]).
Origen
This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of
God is called Mary, worthy of God,
immaculate of the immaculate, one of the
one ( Homily 1 [ A.D. 244]).
Hippolytus
He [Jesus] was the ark formed of
incorruptible wood. For by this is signified
that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt
from defilement and corruption ( Orat. In
Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl.
Patrum, II, 496 ante [ A.D. 235 ]).
Ephraim the Syrian
You alone and your Mother are more
beautiful than any others, for there is
neither blemish in you nor any stains
upon your Mother. Who of my children
can compare in beauty to these?
( Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [ A. D. 361 ]).
Ambrose of Milan
Come, then, and search out your sheep,
not through your servants or hired men,
but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in
the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me
up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin
not only undefiled but a Virgin whom
grace had made inviolate, free of every
stain of sin ( Commentary on Psalm
118:22-30 [ A.D. 387 ]).
Gregory Nazianzen
He was conceived by the virgin, who had
been first purified by the Spirit in soul and
body; for, as it was fitting that
childbearing should receive its share of
honor, so it was necessary that virginity
should receive even greater honor
( Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390 ]).
Augustine
We must except the Holy Virgin Mary,
concerning whom I wish to raise no
question when it touches the subject of
sins, out of honor to the Lord; for from
Him we know what abundance of grace
for overcoming sin in every particular was
conferred upon her who had the merit to
conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly
had no sin ( Nature and Grace 36:42 [ A.D.
415 ]).
Theodotus of Ancrya
A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all
defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul
and body, like a lily sprouting among
thorns ( Homily 6:11[ante A.D. 446 ]).
Proclus of Constantinople
As He formed her without any stain of her
own, so He proceeded from her
contracting no stain ( Homily 1[ante A.D.
446 ]).
Jacob of Sarug
[T]he very fact that God has elected her
proves that none was ever holier than
Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul,
if any other virgin had been purer and
holier, God would have selected her and
rejected Mary[ante A.D. 521 ].
Romanos the Melodist
Then the tribes of Israel heard that Anna
had conceived the immaculate one. So
everyone took part in the rejoicing.
Joachim gave a banquet, and great was
the merriment in the garden. He invited
the priests and Levites to prayer; then he
called Mary into the center of the crowd,
that she might be magnified ( On the Birth
of Mary 1 [d. ca A.D. 560 ]).

[size=1pt]

Papist:
Mary's Immaculate Concepton? Of course you will reject these as well because they are not in the Bible, even though the Bible does not teach sola scriptura:

Justin Martyr
[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that
the course that was taken by
disobedience in the beginning through the
agency of the serpent might be also the
very course by which it would be put
down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled,
conceived the word of the serpent and
bore disobedience and death. But the
Virgin Mary received faith and joy when
the angel Gabriel announced to her the
glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord
would come upon her and the power of
the Most High would overshadow her, for
which reason the Holy One being born of
her is the Son of God. And she replied,
"Be it done unto me according to your
word" (Luke 1:38) ( Dialogue with Trypho
100 [ A.D. 155 ]).
Irenaeus
Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is
found to be obedient, saying, "Behold, 0
Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me
according to your word." Eve . . . who
was then still a virgin although she had
Adam for a husband — for in paradise
they were both naked but were not
ashamed; for, having been created only a
short time, they had no understanding of
the procreation of children . . . having
become disobedient [sin], was made the
cause of death for herself and for the
whole human race; so also Mary,
betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a
virgin, being obedient [no sin], was made
the cause of salvation for herself and for
the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot
of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the
obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve
had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary
loosed through faith ( Against Heresies
3:22:24 [ A.D. 189 ]).
Origen
This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of
God is called Mary, worthy of God,
immaculate of the immaculate, one of the
one ( Homily 1 [ A.D. 244]).
Hippolytus
He [Jesus] was the ark formed of
incorruptible wood. For by this is signified
that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt
from defilement and corruption ( Orat. In
Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl.
Patrum, II, 496 ante [ A.D. 235 ]).
Ephraim the Syrian
You alone and your Mother are more
beautiful than any others, for there is
neither blemish in you nor any stains
upon your Mother. Who of my children
can compare in beauty to these?
( Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [ A. D. 361 ]).
Ambrose of Milan
Come, then, and search out your sheep,
not through your servants or hired men,
but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in
the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me
up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin
not only undefiled but a Virgin whom
grace had made inviolate, free of every
stain of sin ( Commentary on Psalm
118:22-30 [ A.D. 387 ]).
Gregory Nazianzen
He was conceived by the virgin, who had
been first purified by the Spirit in soul and
body; for, as it was fitting that
childbearing should receive its share of
honor, so it was necessary that virginity
should receive even greater honor
( Sermon 38 [d. A.D. 390 ]).
Augustine
We must except the Holy Virgin Mary,
concerning whom I wish to raise no
question when it touches the subject of
sins, out of honor to the Lord; for from
Him we know what abundance of grace
for overcoming sin in every particular was
conferred upon her who had the merit to
conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly
had no sin ( Nature and Grace 36:42 [ A.D.
415 ]).
Theodotus of Ancrya
A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all
defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul
and body, like a lily sprouting among
thorns ( Homily 6:11[ante A.D. 446 ]).
Proclus of Constantinople
As He formed her without any stain of her
own, so He proceeded from her
contracting no stain ( Homily 1[ante A.D.
446 ]).
Jacob of Sarug
[T]he very fact that God has elected her
proves that none was ever holier than
Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul,
if any other virgin had been purer and
holier, God would have selected her and
rejected Mary[ante A.D. 521 ].
Romanos the Melodist
Then the tribes of Israel heard that Anna
had conceived the immaculate one. So
everyone took part in the rejoicing.
Joachim gave a banquet, and great was
the merriment in the garden. He invited
the priests and Levites to prayer; then he
called Mary into the center of the crowd,
that she might be magnified ( On the Birth
of Mary 1 [d. ca A.D. 560 ]).

[/size]
M0ron, I asked for SCRIPTURES not folk tales

btoks:
There was never a bible for the first 400 years of christianity,

We had the entire scriptures by the end of first century

so I don't understand how all those who authored it gave us the bible.

What exactly don't you understand because it is not clear?
Let me ask you. Who 'gave' us Psalms?

There were several books claming to be scripture but scripture had to be declared so authoritatively. Who did this declaration?

I think I understand you.
Pore through this and revert if you have any questions
http://www.bible.ca/canon.htm

How do you know who authored the Gospel according to Luke for instance and how did it become scripture?

http://www.bible.ca/b-canon-earliest-evidence.htm

You have a point about church being a community of believers, this was especially true when Jesus established his church and it was clear what the true church was with the Apostles as Leaders.

Correct

However, we know that from early days there were heretical groups claiming to know the correct teachings. Some even claiming Jesus is not God. We also know that there are now several thousand denominations claiming to know the truth with differing doctrines (e.g. holy eucharist real body of Jesus or symbolic, infant baptism valid or not etc.) and no unity.

Correct

Where is the one church Jesus established? How did this church operate in the early years? Did Jesus really establish the lack of unity which his apparent among the 'anybody who believes in Christ' comment you made?

This is where you lose me totally. The 'one church Jesus established' is simply EVERY believer who follows Christ and His teachings taught by the apostles. The test of a true church is the faithfulness to the doctrine taught by the apostles as recorded in the New Teatament.

Did the apostles teach about Mary's perpetual virginity?
What about rosary?
And 'apostolic succession'?

I advice catholics to live these guys to their self righteousness, tell them to disregard the bible and read the gnostics since the Bible was put together from single scriptures by a satanist church(their word not mine) into the bible as we know.... That's the irony of it all,if the catholic church is of satan then the bible is of satan too since the church left out some books(not all may understand the irony here).Then it must mean those books left out are the true works of God if these jokers are to tell themselves the truth?

Its simple logic......assuming we are to put religion aside and think like we are supposed to.

Good bye friends and foes in christ

plaetton:
The Roman Catholic Church is not the only true church.

They are THE CHURCH.

All others are simply her waywabrd and dysfunctional children.

They wrote the program.
They direct the program.
Only they know the program codes.

You don't, and will never understand.

And here another reason to question the catholic church. An atheist speaking for a church is like the devil giving full support to a thing that does not threaten him.

Papist:
Where does one even begin? You are surely an ignoramus i.e not well read and that is not an insult. You should burry your head in shame for all the unsubstantiated nonsense you wrote above. Which history book did you read? Jack Chick's cartoons?

I am a catholic and i think he made more sense.

Speechless3:
And here another reason to question the catholic church. An atheist speaking for a church is like the devil giving full support to a thing that does not threaten him.

I am not speaking for the Catholic Church.
I am just a human being like yourself, who knows a lot more history than you do.

plaetton:
I am not speaking for the Catholic Church.
I am just a human being like yourself, who knows a lot more history than you do.

History you wrote yourself ?

vooks:
The bible was given by all who authored it. The church is anybody who believes in Jesus Christ. What do you mean where the church is?

Exactly ! The church Christ is talking about isn't a denomination or the Catholic Church

Speechless3:
And here another reason to question the catholic church. An atheist speaking for a church is like the devil giving full support to a thing that does not threaten him.

May God bless you for the wisdom you displayed in this post . Plaetton , an atheist , always supports the Catholic Church and we Christian question the principles and beliefs of the Catholic Church . Something's fishy right ?

atheists tho... I thought you just didn't believe anything at all.

For your info, the bible is enough proof that there're other beings in the universe. Yes, the fallen angels. you don't believe the believe the bible that said this thousands of years ago when there was no trace or iota of their existence, but you believe the big bang of yesterday.

What do you think the fallen Angels are? they are those ETs you speak of. They're the modern day demons. They're the adversaries my bible warned me about. They know everything about you, your birthday, your parents, your friends etc. I'll stop here.

plaetton:
In said ufology would make a lot more sense than Christianity, even it was considered a religion.
At least ufology deals the 99% mathematical probability that other, more evolved and more technologically advanced life forms exists within the totality of the universe.

Now, if you and Vooks want me post evidences that support the existence of advanced extraterrestrial life, I will open a thread specifically for that purpose,..starting with your holy Bible.

Speechless3:
I am a catholic and i think he made more sense.

To be a Catholic means to believe all the teachings of the teachings of the Catholic so I doubt you are a Catholic. But thats besides the point. Since you believe he/she made a lot of sense, can you please help them substantiate their claim.

Papist:
To be a Catholic means to believe all the teachings of the teachings of the Catholic so I doubt you are a Catholic. But thats besides the point. Since you believe he/she made a lot of sense, can you please help them substantiate their claim.

I have no strong proof yet.

vooks:
[size=1pt][/size] M0ron, I asked for SCRIPTURES not folk tales

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience .” ― Mark Twain.

Papist:
Never argue with stupid people, they will
drag you down to their level and then beat
you with experience .” ― Mark Twain.

Which is so vividly confirmed by debating with you a Catholic Satanist

Speechless3:
I have no strong proof yet.

Thanks for the honesty. When you get the proof please present it.

Papist:
Thanks for the honesty. When you get the proof please present it.

Patiently waiting for scriptural proof of ;
1. Immaculate conception
2. Perpetual virginity

PS
CONSULT dmandy and Syncan so you don't regurgitate the garbage I have already debunked

vooks:
Why does Roman Catholicism imagine itself to the the only true church?

1. They believe they have all the sacraments(baptism,Eucharist and confession to a priest)
2. They believe they have the 'sacred tradition'
3. They believe they have a leader, a pope who unifies people, and is a product of apostolic succession
4. They believe Catholicism has the 'four marks of a true church' and therefore it possesses 'fullness of the truth'

Next, we will examine each of these claims separately

Let's start with #1- Sacraments

Sacraments interestingly are not defined nowhere in Catholicism. It is just presumed one knows what they be. Let's look at some statements regarding sacraments from their literature;

The whole liturgical life of the Church revolves around the Eucharistic sacrifice and the sacraments- Catechism of the Catholic Church, #1113

By His power He [Christ] is present in the sacrament -Pope Paul VI, “Sacrosanctum Concilium,” a Constitution of the Second Vatican Council, Paragraph 7)

His purpose also was that they might accomplish the work of salvation which they had proclaimed, by means of sacrifice and sacraments, around which the entire liturgical life revolves. Sacrosanctum Concilium,-Paragraph 6

Sacraments are "powers that come forth" from the Body of Christ, which is ever-living and life-giving. They are actions of the Holy Spirit at work in his Body, the Church. They are "the masterworks of God" in the new and everlasting covenant- Catechism of the Catholic Church #1116

The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.- Catechism of the Catholic Church #1129

1. Life of the church revolves around the sacraments
2. Christ is present in the sacrament
3. Salvation is accomplished by means of the sacrament
4. Sacraments are actions of the Holy Spirit
5. Sacraments are necessary for salvation

Each of these statements show you how vital the sacraments are to a catholic. The claim here is that only Roman Catholicism has perfect these sacraments therefore they are the ONLY source of salvation.

First, the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross is what saves not any other attendant rite. This means perfecting a rite does not add to the finished work of the Cross. Secondly

Secondly while the Lord's table and baptism is commanded, there is no command to confess sins to priests. This is a pure unscriptural invention. So if Catholicism boasts of doctrinal innovation, we leave them to wallow in their mire.

Thirdly and closely related to the second point, different faiths outside Catholicism do baptism and Lord's table. So what exactly makes Catholicism boast of perfecting these sacraments? Empty boating

This is the biblical definition of the word 'church'[/quote]Very well said, but more importantly, give your life to Christ and make sure you are sincerely and not delusion ally saved. Shalom.

waldigit:
This is the biblical definition of the word 'church'

Very well said, but more importantly, give your life to Christ and make sure you are sincerely and not delusion ally saved. Shalom.

Wise counsel