₦airaland Forum

See this link:

http://www.ifaheritage.org/curriculum.php

And see how they compartmentalized Ifa into areas one can specialize in.

9jacrip:
@ the first emboldened: you cannot 'consult' a deity to know how to propitiate it or anything. Only options available are if one of the initiates goes into trance and the deity speaks through the person, or you ask the people who are knowledgeable to school you or finally, you ask ifa.

Aworo Orisa are learned when it comes to propitiating an Orisha. An Aworo is not just a random person but someone who has been chosen by the Orisha itself. In some places, they are called Iyawo Orisha. They receive message from the Orisha dircetly through trance without consulting any Ifa priest.

9jacrip:
You do not consult with orisa even with dida obi or owo eyo. Only Ifa contains the items, process/steps and needed chants when propitiatkng a deity.

I think you understand that aspokeperson can never not tell about his boss more than boss himself?

Ifa is the voice of every Orisha. It talks about their story but not more than the Orisha itself.

9jacrip:
And you cannot go to Ogun to want to learn, you'd still have to go back to Ifa except you ask Ogun initiates or hear from a person who enters egun.

There is an exception here.

Ogun is still the master of hunting game. Oko has the field while Babaji has the animals.

The masterstroke goes to Ogun for hunters. You said it yourself.

9jacrip:
Osanyin the human was known for his herbal skill, so was Obaluaye. Their knowledge of herbs was recorded in Ifa - Osanyin or Obaluaye are not going to speak to you.

I dont think you know that Osanyin is the only talking deity in Yoruba land after Ooni. Osaying speaks directly to consultants in Yoruba language. It bypass it aworo unless you dont understand it voice directly and charge consultants with instruction on what to do and not do. It voice is loud and clear. I have personally know one of it Aworo, he does not have or consult Ifa.

9jacrip:
In a nutshell, Ifa is the manual to these deities.

Orishas are not robots either. They are consious beings that know how to communicate using any of their conveinent aid with their initiates and Aworo.

9jacrip:
To further my argument, the school of Ifa in Oyo have each line from Ifa separated because that is how it is done even if you were omo ikofa at a Babalawo's place. You either follow what your Oluwo is good at or you chart a new course.

You pick what you want.

Omo Ikofa is basically entitled to know (Mo) Odu, Praise (ki) Odu, Interpreate (Tumo) Odu and Deliver (Ro) Odu.

Learning Ifa is not just about knowing history, mythology or the spiritual aspect of Ifa. Learning Ifa include knowing and recognising of the 256 corpus, memorizing and ability to recite the 800 and moreverses attached each Odu (that is about 204800 verse and with pssible more verses to that). Each of this verse conatin a story of the past of an individual, orisa and ajoguns. In this stories, there are problems, solution, solution and methodological ways which these problesm can be solved. The methods contain Ebo, materials needed for Ebo and where to place it. Also conditions could be attached to these things.

Memorixing 204800 and more verse is not an easy feat. It is something no professor or any master of science can beat.

There is no category involved in learning Ifa. The only category could depend on number of verses your Babalawo decides to teach you. In myy books, 8 verses dedicated for each 16 principal Odu. I have another book that contain 16 verses of the 240 secondary Odu. Each of these verse conatin interpreation and meaasge the Odu convey. Though the verse is not complete. . .author stated that alot of things are removed and are to be know by Initiates alone. However, each verse does not convey history or mythology alone. Each verse conatin just everything, all categories be it Ebo, Ofo (incantation), itan Orisha and many others.

9jacrip:
The second emboldened:

Tapa and maybe Fulani are our neighbour (Oyo) so there's nothing new here. The whites and co are those I'm not sure about but I hear you there.

What are you saying Uncle?

I am not arguing contacts with you but that Ifa acknowledge other people who are not and share no history with Yoruba existence.

9jacrip:
I really won't like to take the argument into the realm of where civilization started or if it was Ife and if Ifa mentioned other peoples - why? Because I have no knowledge in this aspect and would rather follow you and see what I can learn or else I'll be taking you in circles rather than helping the argument develop, I hope you understand.

This man won push this matter for my head. Lol.

You are learned than I am. Oju e la n wo Baba.

Pangeae was centered in Africa. Reseach held that Man originated from Africa. The popular garden of Eden is said to be situated in Africa. Also, our creation story stated that origin of man started in Ile-ife, a location in Africa. Everything is centered on Africa. Africa is a very big landmass so the question is where exactly in Africa?.

We all know the origin of man Points Africa. Some said the exact location is Ethiopia. Yoruba creation account noted that Ife Oodaye is this place. Ile-Ife too is often refered to Oodaye but nevertheless, Oodaye is here in Africa. So we need to know if Oodaye is our Ile-ife in Osunsatet or somewhere in Ethiopia or other part of Africa.

The irony here though is that an initiate believing Ifa lied and Oodaye is myth.

9jacrip:
Finally, let me add that, Ifa kept record of the past and still keeps record of the present. How new verses get encoded into Odu is what I do not know and never thought of asking. So if Ifa talks about Arab, Fulani, Tapa and European slave trade then it must have been incorporated during the period of contact with these people. Like it is in modern sciences, oniseguns experiment everyday with new leaves, animal parts/blood, positions, time of the day/night to develop new ogun which are then entered into Ifa after it has been proven/tested variously.

So, ifa mentioning these people must have been upon contact or afterwards.

Ya I know

9jacrip:
P.S: all the people I mentioned are spiritual elders, hence the myth and actual history are both important to them. For people who want to construct actual history, myth is usually disregarded. As I said before, myth is the basis of spiritualism in Ifa, it challenges you to attain certain levels the deities reached in mythical stories. Wanting to construct history with these myth will make one look stupid and insane.

myth is synonymous to lie and false tale.

9jacrip:
Ifa is not stupid, this is why it carries with it 2 versions of each deity.

There was Osun the lady that came down to earth with irunmole, mother of Ose-Tura (Esu's Odu).

There was Osun the lady that married Sango in Oyo which people are aware of.

There was Oduduwa, the sky traveller who came to earth.

There was Oduduwa who lived in Oke Ora and fought known battle with Obatala.

There was Obatala who drank wine and forgot his heavenly task.

There was Obatala who indeed lived and has temples in the iranjes mentioned in Ifa.

There was Esu whom Osun birthed.

There was Esu in Ilare whose compound is still there today.

There was Orunmila who worked with Olodumare in heaven.

There was Orunmila who lived in Ife and ended up in Ire-Ekiti that people knew.

The list is endless, you can pick what part you want to apply in constructing your history.

I though Odi meji is Odu that tells the story of Eshu....

Are you then assuming Oduduwa who came down on a chain does not exist but the one lived in Ife, Oranmiyan father existed?

Are you creating division for what is true and false?

Do you think Ifa has ever lied?

9jacrip:
@ the first emboldened: you cannot 'consult' a deity to know how to propitiate it or anything. Only options available are if one of the initiates goes into trance and the deity speaks through the person, or you ask the people who are knowledgeable to school you or finally, you ask ifa.

You do not consult with orisa even with dida obi or owo eyo. Only Ifa contains the items, process/steps and needed chants when propitiatkng a deity.

And you cannot go to Ogun to want to learn, you'd still have to go back to Ifa except you ask Ogun initiates or hear from a person who enters egun.

Osanyin the human was known for his herbal skill, so was Obaluaye. Their knowledge of herbs was recorded in Ifa - Osanyin or Obaluaye are not going to speak to you.

In a nutshell, Ifa is the manual to these deities.

To further my argument, the school of Ifa in Oyo have each line from Ifa separated because that is how it is done even if you were omo ikofa at a Babalawo's place. You either follow what your Oluwo is good at or you chart a new course.

You pick what you want.

The second emboldened:

Tapa and maybe Fulani are our neighbour (Oyo) so there's nothing new here. The whites and co are those I'm not sure about but I hear you there.

I really won't like to take the argument into the realm of where civilization started or if it was Ife and if Ifa mentioned other peoples - why? Because I have no knowledge in this aspect and would rather follow you and see what I can learn or else I'll be taking you in circles rather than helping the argument develop, I hope you understand.

Finally, let me add that, Ifa kept record of the past and still keeps record of the present. How new verses get encoded into Odu is what I do not know and never thought of asking. So if Ifa talks about Arab, Fulani, Tapa and European slave trade then it must have been incorporated during the period of contact with these people. Like it is in modern sciences, oniseguns experiment everyday with new leaves, animal parts/blood, positions, time of the day/night to develop new ogun which are then entered into Ifa after it has been proven/tested variously.

So, ifa mentioning these people must have been upon contact or afterwards.


P.S: all the people I mentioned are spiritual elders, hence the myth and actual history are both important to them. For people who want to construct actual history, myth is usually disregarded. As I said before, myth is the basis of spiritualism in Ifa, it challenges you to attain certain levels the deities reached in mythical stories. Wanting to construct history with these myth will make one look stupid and insane.

Ifa is not stupid, this is why it carries with it 2 versions of each deity.

There was Osun the lady that came down to earth with irunmole, mother of Ose-Tura (Esu's Odu).

There was Osun the lady that married Sango in Oyo which people are aware of.

There was Oduduwa, the sky traveller who came to earth.

There was Oduduwa who lived in Oke Ora and fought known battle with Obatala.

There was Obatala who drank wine and forgot his heavenly task.

There was Obatala who indeed lived and has temples in the iranjes mentioned in Ifa.

There was Esu whom Osun birthed.

There was Esu in Ilare whose compound is still there today.

There was Orunmila who worked with Olodumare in heaven.

There was Orunmila who lived in Ife and ended up in Ire-Ekiti that people knew.

The list is endless, you can pick what part you want to apply in constructing your history.

Isn't Ogun the one who ended up in Ire-Ekiti while Orunmila lived in Ulesun (present day Ado-Ekiti)?

Ghost01:
Isn't Ogun the one who ended up in Ire-Ekiti while Orunmila lived in Ulesun (present day Ado-Ekiti)?

I was beginning to get riled up over a discussion with some other person while typing that so I mixed it up.

Ogun - Ire Ekiti

Orunmila - Ado.

FOLYKAZE:
What are you saying Uncle?

I am not arguing contacts with you but that Ifa acknowledge other people who are not and share no history with Yoruba existence.

I'm saying it must have been upon or after contact not like Ifa prophecied like most people make it seem.

This man won push this matter for my head. Lol.

Lol

You are learned than I am. Oju e la n wo Baba.

Learned kini? Baba, emi o mo nkan kan o. Discussing this with you itself makes me feel like I'm stepping beyond my limits.

Pangeae was centered in Africa. Reseach held that Man originated from Africa. The popular garden of Eden is said to be situated in Africa. Also, our creation story stated that origin of man started in Ile-ife, a location in Africa. Everything is centered on Africa. Africa is a very big landmass so the question is where exactly in Africa?.

Are we incorporating science thag deals with material facts now?

We all know the origin of man Points Africa. Some said the exact location is Ethiopia. Yoruba creation account noted that Ife Oodaye is this place. Ile-Ife too is often refered to Oodaye but nevertheless, Oodaye is here in Africa. So we need to know if Oodaye is our Ile-ife in Osunsatet or somewhere in Ethiopia or other part of Africa.

Hmmmn.

Alagba Folykaze, eyin na ni e ma bawa research boya Oodaye is Ile-Ife o. Would be an interesting find sha.

The irony here though is that an initiate believing Ifa lied and Oodaye is myth.

The irony here is a learned elder chose to see Myth as a lie rather than for what it is - a spiritual explanation of things.

Ya I know

Oda

myth is synonymous to lie and false tale

Says egbon Foly.

Myth is synonymous with spiritual explanation of history or ideology.

For a lie to have a foot hold then there must be truth its partner. If you see the myth of cock, oduduwa, sand and water as a myth (lie) then what is the truth version (from the spiritual context).

I though Odi meji is Odu that tells the story of Eshu....

No, Ose Tura

Are you then assuming Oduduwa who came down on a chain does not exist but the one lived in Ife, Oranmiyan father existed?

You do the math.

Would you rather try convincing the material world that relies heavily of evidences with the spiritual story of Oduduwa.

Or

You would rather convice the world of the Oduduwa who had children and with evidences to support.

It is your choice.

Are you creating division for what is true and false? Do you think Ifa has ever lied?

I'm creating a division from spiritual and the human histories.

The penchant of Ife/Yoruba to hold on to spiritual verses of history is why Bini and Oyo have attempted shots at Ife on several occasions.

Egbon, a summary of what I'm saying is:

There are spiritual accounts in Ifa - Myth.

There are actual verifiable accounts in Ifa - human history.

Hence, there's no lie in either, we just need to chant spiritual verses during divination or rituals while we enlighten people to actual history during discussions or research.

9jacrip:
Egbon e funny o LOL

But seriously, how can someone say such after saying Ife Oodaye is in the middle-east?

macof:
But seriously, how can someone say such after saying Ife Oodaye is in the middle-east?

At times I wonder if people ever read their write up before and after posting it and if they see it from a second/third party perspective.

Lol.

There is incontrovertible evidence that very advanced people lived on Earth in the distant past. To the Yoruba, the capital of that civilization was Ife, the empire was Ife Oodaye. The civilzation was destroyed probably by a huge asteroid hitting the Earth but some people survived and established Ife Ooyelagbo 10060 years ago, it must be thesame year Ife Oodaye sank. Later Kemitic Egypt, Sumeria, the Aztecs, Mayans and etc were established as offshoots of Ife Ooyelagbo, then Greece, Phoenicia and etc followed by Persia, Rome, then the Muslims followed by Spain, then Britain and Europe and the US leading to our world today containing China, Russia, US, EU as giants.

I believe Ife Oodaye is thesame as the legendary Atlantis located somewhere now under the Atlantic ocean between Africa and the Americas.

One man came from the middle East and was made King in the civilization whose remnants were still observing the Ife Ooyelagbo tradition. These remnants are the Yoruba. The man was renamed Oduduwa by the oracle. The original Oduduwa was a woman among the orisas that landed at Ife Oodaye at the dawn of existence. She was not a major orisa but just among the many. Oduduwa was not as important as he or she is today, even today it is not a major orisa. The main orisas are Ogun, Sango, Obatala, Esu and the ones who have weekdays dedicated to them.

However, Oduduwa's dynasty is the most popular among the Yoruba nowadays. He is the Yoruba father figure now. It was not so in the past.

If the Earth is destroyed again to remain only hundred thousand people and 40 thousand of them band together to found a new city while 60 thousand scatter to become hunter gatherers, the new city will be the New Ife Ooyelagbo, it may be named Washington DC or New York in remembrance of the old world.

That is the way I see it. I hope people will shed more light on it

9jacrip:
I'm saying it must have been upon or after contact not like Ifa prophecied like most people make it seem.

The whole arguement started with this comment from you:

Ife people didn't know other folks existed in other places till Oduduwa's era. They were just caught up in their own world and thought it was the only and beginning for others.

I disagreed with that and stated Ifa acknowledge existence of other people.

9jacrip:
Lol

Learned kini? Baba, emi o mo nkan kan o. Discussing this with you itself makes me feel like I'm stepping beyond my limits.

Limit ke? I was thinking you will give me straight answer na.

9jacrip:
Are we incorporating science thag deals with material facts now?

Science is a body of knowledge.

Ifa is also a body of knowledge.

So no clear cut here.

9jacrip:
Hmmmn.

Alagba Folykaze, eyin na ni e ma bawa research boya Oodaye is Ile-Ife o. Would be an interesting find sha.

I think we need to ask questions like this.

If I know what the answer is, I wouldnt have opened a thread for it.

9jacrip:
The irony here is a learned elder chose to see Myth as a lie rather than for what it is - a spiritual explanation of things.

lol.

Do not make me pick up dictionary

9jacrip:
Oda

Says egbon Foly.

Myth is synonymous with spiritual explanation of history or ideology.

Myth

1. a traditional but unfounded story that gives the reason for a current custom, belief, or fact of nature

2. a false idea or belief

Synonyms: fable , legend , mythos

Related Words allegory , parable ; fabrication , fantasy ( also phantasy), fiction , figment , invention ; narrative , saga , story , tale , yarn

9jacrip:
For a lie to have a foot hold then there must be truth its partner. If you see the myth of cock, oduduwa, sand and water as a myth (lie) then what is the truth version (from the spiritual context).

The Yoruba creation account is never a myth to me. I have never call it a myth just because it is not.

9jacrip:
No, Ose Tura

hmmm.

Ose-otura olugboun awo.

Thanks

9jacrip:
You do the math.

Would you rather try convincing the material world that relies heavily of evidences with the spiritual story of Oduduwa.

Or

You would rather convice the world of the Oduduwa who had children and with evidences to support.


It is your choice.

I rather kil two birds with a stone

9jacrip:
I'm creating a division from spiritual and the human histories.

The penchant of Ife/Yoruba to hold on to spiritual verses of history is why Bini and Oyo have attempted shots at Ife on several occasions.

Egbon, a summary of what I'm saying is:

There are spiritual accounts in Ifa - Myth.

There are actual verifiable accounts in Ifa - human history.

Hence, there's no lie in either, we just need to chant spiritual verses during divination or rituals while we enlighten people to actual history during discussions or research.

Maybe we need to stop using the word myth.

Now on a serious biz.

Ife is called 'Ibi Ojumo nti mo wa' meaning where the dawn starts from.

Do you think the sun rises here or let me say dawn starts first in Ile-ife?


This can help us

There is incontrovertible evidence that very advanced people lived on Earth in the distant past. To the Yoruba, the capital of that civilization was ife, the empire was ife oodaye. The civilization was destroyed probably by a huge asteroid hitting the Earth but some people survived and established ife Ooyelagbo 10060 years ago, it must be thesame year ife oodaye sank. Later Kemitic Egypt, Sumeria, the Aztecs, Mayans and etc were established as offshoots of ife Ooyelagbo, then Greece, Phoenicia and etc followed by Persia, Rome, then the Muslims followed by Spain, then Britain and Europe and the US leading to our world today containing China, Russia, US, EU as giants.

I believe ife oodaye is thesame as the legendary Atlantis located somewhere now under the Atlantic ocean between Africa and the Americas.

One man came from the middle East and was made King in the civilization whose remnants were still observing the ife Ooyelagbo tradition. These remnants are the Yoruba. The man was renamed Oduduwa by the oracle. The original Oduduwa was a woman among the orisas that landed at ife oodaye at the dawn of existence. She was not a major orisa but just among the many. Oduduwa was not as important as he or she is today, even today it is not a major orisa. The main orisas are Ogun, Sango, Obatala, Esu and the ones who have weekdays dedicated to them.

However, Oduduwa's dynasty is the most popular among the Yoruba nowadays. He is the Yoruba father figure now. It was not so in the past.

If the Earth is destroyed again to remain only hundred thousand people and 40 thousand of them band together to found a new city while 60 thousand scatter to become hunter gatherers, the new city will be the New ife Ooyelagbo, it may be named Washington DC or New York in remembrance of the old world.

That is the way I see it. I hope people will shed more light on it

FOLYKAZE:
The whole arguement started with this comment from you:

I disagreed with that and stated Ifa acknowledge existence of other people.

It was in response to your post seeking to investigate if world/life/human existence started at Ife.

Limit ke? I was thinking you will give me straight answer na.

Where I wan see am

Science is a body of knowledge.

Ifa is also a body of knowledge.

So no clear cut here.

Right.
You do understan they are at parallels by operation abi?

Science deals with material facts.

I think we need to ask questions like this.

If I know what the answer is, I wouldnt have opened a thread for it.

lol.

Do not make me pick up dictionary



Myth

1. a traditional but unfounded story that gives the reason for a current custom, belief, or fact of nature

2. a false idea or belief

Synonyms: fable , legend , mythos

Related Words allegory , parable ; fabrication , fantasy ( also phantasy), fiction , figment , invention ; narrative , saga , story , tale , yarn

Your dictionary is very wrong, what dictionary is this anyways?

I may have to say the definition you posted is more of a literary definition. You may have to hit history dictionaries or encyclopedia for better understanding of myth because from it greek source, greek basically means story.

The Yoruba creation account is never a myth to me. I have never call it a myth just because it is not.

I hear you here but I've cited an example of 2 versions of the existence of each character in Ifa. The heavenly and the human, it is up to you to find how to reconcline or separate both where necessay.

For me, I would rather separate what seeks to explain spirituality from history so I do not hit a brickwall in the course of my journey to develop in Ifa/Isese.

hmmm.

Ose-otura olugboun awo.

Thanks.

You're welcome daddy.

I rather kil two birds with a stone

It will mess up your research and give folks holes to exploit to dislodge your entire findings.

Maybe we need to stop using the word myth.

No, we only need to give it a clear cut definition of term for a better contextual usage going forward.

Now on a serious biz.

Ife is called 'Ibi Ojumo nti mo wa' meaning where the dawn starts from.

Do you think the sun rises here or let me say dawn starts first in Ile-ife?

This can help us

You incorporated science, so I'll ask you, by Geography, also a body of knowledge within science, do you think the sun rises in Ife (in the heart of west)?

We have 3 schools of thought here now.

1. Lawani's school of advanced human's descending to earth that founded civilizations at Ife Oodaye that later gave birth to other civilizations.

2. Folykaze's school of the combination of the entirety of Ifa stories serving as the basis for questioning or agreeing that the modern Ile-Ife was at a time the Ife Oodaye where creation/civilization began.

3. 9jacrip's school of the separation of myth from actual verifiable accounts in order to construct the history of Ife and which sees Ife Oodaye and Ife Ooyelagbo as mythical explanation of Ife's tradition of origin and never existed.

So, each of us can, upon laying hands on further details as time goes by, post their findings on their line for us to learn from. This is in order to have a clear dichotomy so we don't keep bumping arguments and going back and forth.

@ Lawani is making some contribution. I think we need to look at some sides of his argument.

His argument is somewhat related to 9jacrip submission when he said Oodaye is the first settlement while Ooyelagbo is the second settlement. This is pointing to gap theory.

I think I have read something relaated to this once but I throw it away because it bringing the bible and Isese together.

@ lawani, can you explain more on this your contribution?

FOLYKAZE:
@ Lawani is making some contribution. I think we need to look at some sides of his argument.

His argument is somewhat related to 9jacrip submission when he said Oodaye is the first settlement while Ooyelagbo is the second settlement. This is pointing to gap theory.

I think I have read something relaated to this once but I throw it away because it bringing the bible and Isese together.

@ lawani, can you explain more on this your contribution?

We are not saying the same things.

My take is they are spiritual explanation of creation and not actual occurrence.

For Lawani, it is the opposite.

FOLYKAZE:
@ Lawani is making some contribution. I think we need to look at some sides of his argument.

His argument is somewhat related to 9jacrip submission when he said Oodaye is the first settlement while Ooyelagbo is the second settlement. This is pointing to gap theory.

I think I have read something relaated to this once but I throw it away because it bringing the bible and Isese together.

@ lawani, can you explain more on this your contribution?

What do you want me to explain? If you have questions, I will answer them within the horizon of my understanding while others shed more light with their own understanding.

9jacrip:
It was in response to your post seeking to investigate if world/life/human existence started at Ife.

And you believe those in the ancient Ife thinks no other people exist. This is an unsubstantial claim.

9jacrip:
Where I wan see am

Quote some Ifa verse and point out the answer.

9jacrip:
Right.
You do understan they are at parallels by operation abi?

Science deals with material facts.

Energy is more spritual and immaterial. The material world is made up immaterial and spiritual energy according to quatum mechanism.

So yes, this is all parallel.

9jacrip:


Your dictionary is very wrong, what dictionary is this anyways?

I may have to say the definition you posted is more of a literary definition. You may have to hit history dictionaries or encyclopedia for better understanding of myth because from it greek source, greek basically means story.

I know myth has to do with story but what kind of story is it?

Factual story?

Unfounded story?

Anything unfounded is much like fable, tale, fiction, lie and fantasy.

9jacrip:
I hear you here but I've cited an example of 2 versions of the existence of each character in Ifa. The heavenly and the human, it is up to you to find how to reconcline or separate both where necessay.

For me, I would rather separate what seeks to explain spirituality from history so I do not hit a brickwall in the course of my journey to develop in Ifa/Isese.

The human Orisha were manifestation of the heavenly ones.

We can at best call this incarnation or body vessels which the heavenly force expresses itself. They are one.

PS: are you really an Awo?

9jacrip:
You're welcome daddy.

I remember Hubert Ogunde tonight. I thnk his Odu is Ose-otura. He loves single about it.

9jacrip:
It will mess up your research and give folks holes to exploit to dislodge your entire findings.

Are you afraid of criticism?

9jacrip:
No, we only need to give it a clear cut definition of term for a better contextual usage going forward.

Ifa words, Yoruba creation account/story is much better.

9jacrip:
You incorporated science, so I'll ask you, by Geography, also a body of knowledge within science, do you think the sun rises in Ife (in the heart of west)?

See this bross turning this whole lots on my head!

I have searched everywhere for the sunrise thing. I cant find anything that points to Ife as the place where the sun rise from first.

What could be the english word for ibi Ojumo ti n mo wa?

lawani:
What do you want me to explain? If you have questions, I will answer them within the horizon of my understanding while others shed more light with their own understanding.

Everything you posted is related to the gap theory which explain that the world was once created by the Gods and civilization was already in progress. But at a point, the whole civilization was destroyed by the Gods and the whole planet was leveled and left to ruin. So later after some eons, the supreme God charged the gods to recreate the planet.

Gap Theory

The gap theory is the view that God created a fully functional earth with all animals, including the dinosaurs and other creatures we know only from the fossil record. Then, the theory goes, something happened to destroy the earth completely—most likely the fall of Satan to earth—so that the planet became without form and void. At this point, God started all over again, recreating the earth in its paradise form as further described in Genesis. The gap theory, which is distinct from theistic evolutionand the day-age theory, is also called old-earth creationism, gap creationism, and the ruin-reconstruction theory.

http://www.gotquestions.org/gap-theory.html

The difference here is that you called the fall of satan in Gap creationism fall of Meteors. I think ifeness share this kind of view.

And this what I got from internet concerning Ife-Oodaye and Gap theory.

A historian, Olu Ademulegun, in his book, ‘Who is Oduduwa?’ “The first creation, which was Ife Oodaye, was destroyed by flood due to conflicts and excesses of the gods. This had a semblance with the forty-day Biblical flood story. The second creation, therefore, took place after the flooding and it was called Ife “Ooyelagbo, which means Ife of the survivors and, its creation was by Oduduwa as one of the surviving sky (celestial) gods”.

So Lawani, I can humbly say you got some points.

@ 9jacrip, the reason why I said your argument was related to that of lawani is because your statement on the first and second Ife points to gap theory.

How is Oodaye the first? Why do we have second Ooye?


Lawani. . .I will like to know if Oodaye and the gap theory can be substantiated. Was there any record or findings that prove there has been some civilazation in the past which was destroyed? Is there any evidence there was worldwide flood? Can you proof some of your claim with Ifa verse, scientific findings?

FOLYKAZE:
And you believe those in the ancient Ife thinks no other people exist. This is an unsubstantial claim.

It wasn't a 'claim'.
It was an explanation suggested as the reason they think creation started with and from them.

Quote some Ifa verse and point out the answer.

You must think I know Ifa that much?

Energy is more spritual and immaterial. The material world is made up immaterial and spiritual energy according to quatum mechanism.

So yes, this is all parallel.

Oda

I know myth has to do with story but what kind of story is it?

Factual story?

Unfounded story?

Anything unfounded is much like fable, tale, fiction, lie and fantasy.

For something to be factual, there has to be smallest traceable and verifiable evidences.

Ife people claim to be the start of civilization - a myth.

Ife people claim to be the start of civilization with excavated relics showing dates from far back - factual.

Myth can not be regarded as lie or truth. It is just what it is, myth to serve mostly spiritual/ideologucal purposes.



[quite]The human Orisha were manifestation of the heavenly ones.

We can at best call this incarnation or body vessels which the heavenly force expresses itself. They are one.[/quote]I don't know about the manifestation submission of yours but my own take is; names of characters from the creation story were adopted and given to the people we call Obatala, Oduduwa and co.

PS: are you really an Awo?

Yes.

Why?

I remember Hubert Ogunde tonight. I thnk his Odu is Ose-otura. He loves single about it.

Then he was birthed by a good odu

Are you afraid of criticism?

No.
I just don't want to look stupid and further subject Yoruba history to ridicule. The generation before me sold the myth to us thereby creating holes for people to exploit in bad faith. I seek to correct this and bring forth proper history. As much as I am awo, I am also a learned person.

Ifa words, Yoruba creation account/story is much better.

OK.
I'm not arguing creation with you, hope you know that? My argument is that we separate myth from
Verified history.

See this bross turning this whole lots on my head!

I have searched everywhere for the sunrise thing. I cant find anything that points to Ife as the place where the sun rise from first.

What could be the english word for ibi Ojumo ti n mo wa?

You do not have to take it literal-ly that sun rises from there.

It refers to civilization and the spread of it.

Ojumo - civilization/founding of other towns and the spread of Ife system which was replicated by all other towns. As well as arts and isese.

It is like using lines like 'dawn of a new era' of course we know it is figurative.

FOLYKAZE:
Everything you posted is related to the gap theory which explain that the world was once created by the Gods and civilization was already in progress. But at a point, the whole civilization was destroyed by the Gods and the whole planet was leveled and left to ruin. So later after some eons, the supreme God charged the gods to recreate the planet.



The difference here is that you called the fall of satan in Gap creationism fall of Meteors. I think ifeness share this kind of view.

And this what I got from internet concerning Ife-Oodaye and Gap theory.



So Lawani, I can humbly say you got some points.

@ 9jacrip, the reason why I said your argument was related to that of lawani is because your statement on the first and second Ife points to gap theory.

How is Oodaye the first? Why do we have second Ooye?


Lawani. . .I will like to know if Oodaye and the gap theory can be substantiated. Was there any record or findings that prove there has been some civilazation in the past which was destroyed? Is there any evidence there was worldwide flood? Can you proof some of your claim with Ifa verse, scientific findings?

The bolded has been my argument.

An absence of this makes the argument null/void and grouped as myth where it belongs.

Oodaye and Ooyelagbo are both in Ifa about creation and re-creation where the same person wins and the same person loses; sort of like a recreation of the same tale.

Anyways, I'll take the back seat as my standpoint can not thrive as far as this discussion goes.

9jacrip:
It wasn't a 'claim'.
It was an explanation suggested as the reason they think creation started with and from them.

The creation story did not say Obatala created Yoruba people only. It said Human (every human being without giving regard to color, shape, tribe or Yoruba only).

9jacrip:
You must think I know Ifa that much?

Yes now. Your Obatala thread makes me think you are one Araba.

9jacrip:
Oda

For something to be factual, there has to be smallest traceable and verifiable evidences.

Ife people claim to be the start of civilization - a myth.

Ife people claim to be the start of civilization with excavated relics showing dates from far back - factual.

Myth can not be regarded as lie or truth. It is just what it is, myth to serve mostly spiritual/ideologucal purposes.

How can you know whether this whole account from Ifa about Oodaye is factual when you dont even know where Oodaye is located not to talk of excavating artifacts from it?

But anyway, has there been any artifact excavated from Ife other than the bronze head found around during the colonial rule?

What is the age of Oranmiyan staff?

9jacrip:
I don't know about the manifestation submission of yours but my own take is; names of characters from the creation story were adopted and given to the people we call Obatala, Oduduwa and co.

*****

9jacrip:
Yes.

Why?

I cant just imagine Awo calling Ifa liar and mythical story teller.

I have Baba at home that can tell me moonlight tale. I never knew Initiate can take Ifa as mythical compilation.

9jacrip:
Then he was birthed by a good odu

How is it good?

My babalawo do tell me my Odu is Ose-Otura.

Enemies plenty left and right.

I want Owonrin. How I go take change am?

9jacrip:
No.
I just don't want to look stupid and further subject Yoruba history to ridicule. The generation before me sold the myth to us thereby creating holes for people to exploit in bad faith. I seek to correct this and bring forth proper history. As much as I am awo, I am also a learned person.

Ok

9jacrip:
OK.
I'm not arguing creation with you, hope you know that? My argument is that we separate myth from
Verified history.

ok

9jacrip:
You do not have to take it literal-ly that sun rises from there.

It refers to civilization and the spread of it.

Ojumo - civilization/founding of other towns and the spread of Ife system which was replicated by all other towns. As well as arts and isese.

It is like using lines like 'dawn of a new era' of course we know it is figurative.

This is what lawani was saying.

A new era, there must an old one there.

9jacrip:
The bolded has been my argument.

An absence of this makes the argument null/void and grouped as myth where it belongs.

Oodaye and Ooyelagbo are both in Ifa about creation and re-creation where the same person wins and the same person loses; sort of like a recreation of the same tale.

Anyways, I'll take the back seat as my standpoint can not thrive as far as this discussion goes.

Which back seat? Abeg Uncle come back here. You started it all. . .you've got more to explain.

Lets leave science for now and clear somethings which Ifa and wise people have said.

Your word:

It is said there were 3 phases of Ife.

Ife Oodaye

Ife Ooyelagbo

Ile-Ife

How did you arrive at Ife first and second?

What happened to the first Ife?

What is the cause for the rises of second Ife?

Can you get us some Ifa verse that explain the fall and rise of Ifes?

Thanks

FOLYKAZE:
The creation story did not say Obatala created Yoruba people only. It said Human (every human being without giving regard to color, shape, tribe or Yoruba only).

Neither did the story say where other human or other Yoruba after creation for that matter.

Yes now. Your Obatala thread makes me think you are one Araba.

Ara kini? Abeg o.
I'm an Olorisa yes but every Olorisa (or not) does her/his itefa to know the odu that birth them.

How can you know whether this whole account from Ifa about Oodaye is factual when you dont even know where Oodaye is located not to talk of excavating artifacts from it?

But anyway, has there been any artifact excavated from Ife other than the bronze head found around during the colonial rule?

What is the age of Oranmiyan staff?

This is my point, not knowing where it is already defeats the argument and makes it a myth. Or else you'd hit a brick wall or just go in circles. At best make guesses.

Yes, they are in the palace.

About 4thC.



*****

I cant just imagine Awo calling Ifa liar and mythical story teller.

I have Baba at home that can tell me moonlight tale. I never knew Initiate can take Ifa as mythical compilation.

Well, I have not called Ifa a liar. It is you who has inferred and concluded in your mind that my postulation of separating myth (unverifiable history) from factual history to be a lie.

You have not answered why Ifa has to accounts of the existence of each deity. The god-deity and its activities in heaven and the human deities and their activities on earth. You think Ifa is stupid to have recorded both?

How is it good?

My babalawo do tell me my Odu is Ose-Otura.

Enemies plenty left and right.

I want Owonrin. How I go take change am?

If you have not done itefa there's no way you or a babalawo can know one's odu. Except you have done itefa which in this case is not changeable, it is what makes up your being and journey through life.

Ose Tura, odu where one has to take care and reapect females . Na to dey give females special treatment.




Ok



ok

This is what lawani was saying.

A new era, there must an old one there.

The dawn of a new era was mentioned as an example of a figurative statement.

My point gan gan was to explain 'ibi ojuma ti mowa' to mean where Yoruba civilization in totality spread out.

FOLYKAZE:
Which back seat? Abeg Uncle come back here. You started it all. . .you've got more to explain.

Egbon, e jo e je kin mu ijoko si apa eyin.

Lets leave science for now and clear somethings which Ifa and wise people have said.

Your word:



How did you arrive at Ife first and second?

What happened to the first Ife?

What is the cause for the rises of second Ife?

Can you get us some Ifa verse that explain the fall and rise of Ifes?

Thanks

I don't have the verses in my head, I just know it was mentioned. I could ask around to see what I can find.

I don't know what happened other than the story we both know about Obatala getting drunk from palm wine he found on the floor on his way to carry out the task plus the akuko, yepe, ati baba odudywa to ti ewon ro wa si ife with vulture carrying the sun to the solar system (why its head is bald) and the chameleon taking puctures with its skin to show olodumare.

Then the second says there was a flood that wiped out Odudywa's creations. Then he descended again with a chain but this time from Oke Ora down to Ife where he started to rebuild again.

BUT

The actual human history says Oduduwa, living with his clan in Oke Ora seized power from Obatala through military whatever, incorporated all independent clans, designed the hierarchical structure and made himself the head.

FOLYKAZE:
Everything you posted is related to the gap theory which explain that the world was once created by the Gods and civilization was already in progress. But at a point, the whole civilization was destroyed by the Gods and the whole planet was leveled and left to ruin. So later after some eons, the supreme God charged the gods to recreate the planet.



The difference here is that you called the fall of satan in Gap creationism fall of Meteors. I think ifeness share this kind of view.

And this what I got from internet concerning Ife-Oodaye and Gap theory.



So Lawani, I can humbly say you got some points.

@ 9jacrip, the reason why I said your argument was related to that of lawani is because your statement on the first and second Ife points to gap theory.

How is Oodaye the first? Why do we have second Ooye?


Lawani. . .I will like to know if Oodaye and the gap theory can be substantiated. Was there any record or findings that prove there has been some civilazation in the past which was destroyed? Is there any evidence there was worldwide flood? Can you proof some of your claim with Ifa verse, scientific findings?

There was an article I read about an ancient ruin in South Africa, a city of over 100 thousand population, apparently built to mine gold, something was installed there to represent the four cardinal points but it has shifted because of Earth's movement and it was possible to calculate how long ago it was properly alligned. Calculations showed over 200 thousand years ago.

The epic of Sumer claims there was an advanced civilization that was wiped out by flood. The pre flood Kings ruled for thousands of years each and their names were recorded in the epic of Sumer King list. They were called the Annunnaki. The story is very full having been written thousands of years ago. The story is referring to Ot u Ife. Atlantis in the Kemitic narrative is Ot u Ife.

After Ot u Ife sank, all the knowledge did not go away at once, it went gradually. So we do not know what our ancestors were capable of. If a society does not buckle up, they lose knowledge gradually. For instance ancient Yoruba could write.

There is this penchance to be saying Olodumare destroyed the Earth, I don't necessarily agree. Our Karma can destroy us, not Olodumare. We have nukes already that can destroy us many times over, we just need to start a religious war, if we finish off ourselves in a nuclear holocaust and only a few thousand people survive, they will build the Earth again and possibly pass on the story that Olodumare destroyed the Earth which will not be right. The Earth was destroyed but not by Olodumare, more by man's foolishness. That was the view of the wise men of Kemitic Egypt about the collapse of Atlantis which I believe is same as Ot u Ife.

The cycle has been going on since Earth became habitable is what I believe. The last time Earth was destroyed, the first place to have a civilization while others were nomads was Ife Ooyelagbo and the capital was shifted from place to place. They had no competitor initially. Hence the title Olofin aiye.

Anybody can bring their perspective but given the passed down stories in Ife, I believe what I rendered. The present people in Ife have no idea of what legacy was passed to them to protect.

9jacrip:


Egbon, e jo e je kin mu ijoko si apa eyin.

With due respect sir, there are lots you need to contribute before we can arrive at the finish line.

At this point, there thread is getting much interesting and na your imo at oye fit add the juice.

9jacrip:
I don't have the verses in my head, I just know it was mentioned. I could ask around to see what I can find.

Lawani has brought us to the limelight. Oodaye is a Yoruba thang. Ifa is our body of knowledge so we need to do our investigations using verses from Odu Ifa.

9jacrip:
I don't know what happened other than the story we both know about Obatala getting drunk from palm wine he found on the floor on his way to carry out the task plus the akuko, yepe, ati baba odudywa to ti ewon ro wa si ife with vulture carrying the sun to the solar system (why its head is bald) and the chameleon taking puctures with its skin to show olodumare.

Funny story

Anyway, this is the first Ife called Oodaye.

9jacrip:
Then the second says there was a flood that wiped out Odudywa's creations. Then he descended again with a chain but this time from Oke Ora down to Ife where he started to rebuild again.

This account points to the destruction of first Ife and the rises of Ife Ooyelagbo.

9jacrip:
BUT

The actual human history says Oduduwa, living with his clan in Oke Ora seized power from Obatala through military whatever, incorporated all independent clans, designed the hierarchical structure and made himself the head.

And finally, the new generation Ile-Ife surfaced.


Boss, the three phase of Ife has been listed out. I will like to wait for the Ifa verses on what they gt to say about this.

Thanks

lawani:
There was an article I read about an ancient ruin in South Africa, a city of over 100 thousand population, apparently built to mine gold, something was installed there to represent the four cardinal points but it has shifted because of Earth's movement and it was possible to calculate how long ago it was properly alligned. Calculations showed over 200 thousand years ago.

The epic of Sumer claims there was an advanced civilization that was wiped out by flood. The pre flood Kings ruled for thousands of years each and their names were recorded in the epic of Sumer King list. They were called the Annunnaki. The story is very full having been written thousands of years ago. The story is referring to Ot u Ife. Atlantis in the Kemitic narrative is Ot u Ife.

After Ot u Ife sank, all the knowledge did not go away at once, it went gradually. So we do not know what our ancestors were capable of. If a society does not buckle up, they lose knowledge gradually. For instance ancient Yoruba could write.

There is this penchance to be saying Olodumare destroyed the Earth, I don't necessarily agree. Our Karma can destroy us, not Olodumare. We have nukes already that can destroy us many times over, we just need to start a religious war, if we finish off ourselves in a nuclear holocaust and only a few thousand people survive, they will build the Earth again and possibly pass on the story that Olodumare destroyed the Earth which will not be right. The Earth was destroyed but not by Olodumare, more by man's foolishness. That was the view of the wise men of Kemitic Egypt about the collapse of Atlantis which I believe is same as Ot u Ife.

The cycle has been going on since Earth became habitable is what I believe. The last time Earth was destroyed, the first place to have a civilization while others were nomads was Ife Ooyelagbo and the capital was shifted from place to place. They had no competitor initially. Hence the title Olofin aiye.

Anybody can bring their perspective but given the passed down stories in Ife, I believe what I rendered. The present people in Ife have no idea of what legacy was passed to them to protect.

There are some dudes on this forum who share the same thought with ya. Someone like Ifeness believe Annunakis were from a far away planet. In their own planet, they had advance technology and were very civilized until after some times, war broke out and the remaining surviving travelled down and colonised planet earth. He asserted that the Annunakis were gold miners who believe gold could be used in some way to make one live long or probably become immotals. So on their course of getting more golds, they engineered their dna with that of some apes and made intelligent humans.

Another person who share your thought is sukkot. He is one crazy guy which I observe his thought is out of this world. He believe Annunakis which he often call children of El turned the planet around with advance scientific development. He believe Egyptian pyramid and the likes were built by these creatures. However, the whole thang was wiped out in a long battle among the gods. That brought an end to that civilasation and the rises to ours.

The summerian books have been in support of this theory. But I will like to know if there is an Ifa verse that support this claim.

Many Ifa verses were made up and names were substituted. I have heard of Ifa verses claiming Oranmiyan created the Earth. My belief is that Orunmila, Oduduwa and etc are all incarnations of aspects of Obatala.

Ifa is not absolute truth, nothing is, it is just stories and perspectives. If you arrange Shakespeare's stories and consecrate them, Olodumare will guide you with them as well.

The pyramids were not built by the Annunnaki's technology but by humans like us around 5 thousand years ago

Ife Oodaye is the present Capital of The Countries of Western Nigeria.

[quote author=FOLYKAZE post=41991906][/quote]Good morning
I still need your assistance in getting a place to learn IFA
Any help pls

FOLYKAZE:
The whole arguement started with this comment from you:



I disagreed with that and stated Ifa acknowledge existence of other people.



Limit ke? I was thinking you will give me straight answer na.



Science is a body of knowledge.

Ifa is also a body of knowledge.

So no clear cut here.




I think we need to ask questions like this.

If I know what the answer is, I wouldnt have opened a thread for it.




lol.

Do not make me pick up dictionary



Myth

1. a traditional but unfounded story that gives the reason for a current custom, belief, or fact of nature

2. a false idea or belief

Synonyms: fable , legend , mythos

Related Words allegory , parable ; fabrication , fantasy ( also phantasy), fiction , figment , invention ; narrative , saga , story , tale , yarn



The Yoruba creation account is never a myth to me. I have never call it a myth just because it is not.



hmmm.

Ose-otura olugboun awo.

Thanks




I rather kil two birds with a stone



Maybe we need to stop using the word myth.

Now on a serious biz.

Ife is called 'Ibi Ojumo nti mo wa' meaning where the dawn starts from.

Do you think the sun rises here or let me say dawn starts first in Ile-ife?


This can help us

even ur definition of mythology describes the Oduduwa coming from the sky and Ife Oodaye as such - mythology
it is only useful for spiritual and ritual reference never history


btw it's not Ife Oodaye that was flooded. .. Ife Oodaye is only referenced as place of creation nothing more