₦airaland Forum

Empiree:
You despirate so bad to just copy/paste whatever you want. Anyways, this is typical anti-islamic missionary deceit. Some Anti-Islam missionaries have use the references of a highly reverted commenter of Islam As-Suyuti to claim that Quran is incomplete. This claim like any other claim is totally baseless and absurd. Here is what is quoted

It follows that anything that comes only from Kitab al-Masahif must be held in suspension until corroborated by an independent, reliable source or declared authentic by one of the competent authorities, or adduced by them.

It is reported from Ismail ibn Ibrahim from Ayyub from Naafi from Ibn Umar who said: "Let none of you say 'I have acquired the whole of the Qur'an'. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an has disappeared? Rather let him say 'I have acquired what has survived.'" (as-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fii Ulum al-Qur'an, p.524).

This reference to the Itqan is untraceable as no edition of it is in less than two volumes to my knowledge.

The above refers to a famous saying of Ibn `Umar, once again deceptively/ignorantly mistranslated so as to mislead readers to think it means other than its actual meaning.
The words used by Ibn `Umar for the terms given as "acquired," "disappeared," and "what has survived" above were -- I am quoting from memory -- respectively "ahattu" (I have encompassed), "faatahu" (escapes him), and "ma tayassara minhu" (whatever amount of it has been facilitated).

The actual meaning of Ibn `Umar's words is:

"Let no one say: I have encompassed the whole of the Qur'an [its meanings]. How does he know what all of it is when much of the Qur'an escapes him? Rather, let him say: I have encompassed whatever amount of it has been facilitated [for me to know]."

Ibn Umar was famous for his strictness in refraining from interpreting the Qur'an, even criticizing Ibn `Abbas's interpretive zeal in the beginning, then accepting its authority. He was not referring to the collection of the Qur'an! But only to the ethics of the exegete, in the same line as Ibn `Abbas's saying narrated by al-Tabari and cited by al-Suyuti and al-Zarkashi: "There are ambiguous verses in the Qur'an which no one knows besides Allah. Whoever claims that he knows them, is a liar."

So, Quran is complete, perfect, error free and this is proven in every way. Now, you can say all you want about Qur'an been partly lost. I only asked for one thing, bring physical evidence not articles.


Let me seal this this off by rephrasing missionaries dilema thus:

Answer:[/b]One of the most common myths about the Qur’an, is that Usman (r.a.), the third Caliph of Islam authenticated and compiled one Qur’an, from a large set of mutually contradicting copies. The Qur’an, revered as the Word of Allah (swt) by Muslims the world over, is the same Qur’an as the one revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). It was authenticated and written under his personal supervision. We will examine the roots of the myth which says that Usman (r.a.) had the Qur’an authenticated.

[b]Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself supervised and authenticated the written texts of the Qur’an

Whenever the Prophet received a revelation, he would first memorize it himself and later declare the revelation and instruct his Companions (R.A. – Radhi Allahu Taala Anhu) – May Allah be pleased with him who would also memorize it. The Prophet would immediately ask the scribes to write down the revelation he had received, and he would reconfirm and recheck it himself. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an Ummi who could not read and write. Therefore, after receiving each revelation, he would repeat it to his Companions. They would write down the revelation, and he would recheck by asking them to read what they had written. If there was any mistake, the Prophet would immediately point it out and have it corrected and rechecked. Similarly he would even recheck and authenticate the portions of the Qur’an memorized by the Companions. In this way, the complete Qur’an was written down under the personal supervision of the prophet (pbuh).

Order and sequence of Qur’an divinely inspired

The complete Qur’an was revealed over a period of 23 years portion by portion, as and when it was required. The Qur’an was not compiled by the Prophet in the chronological order of revelation. The order and sequence of the Qur’an too was Divinely inspired and was instructed to the Prophet by Allah (swt) through archangel Jibraeel. Whenever a revelation was conveyed to his companions, the Prophet would also mention in which surah (chapter) and after which ayat (verse) this new revelation should fit. Every Ramadhaan all the portions of the Qur’an that had been revealed, including the order of the verses, were revised and reconfirmed by the Prophet with archangel Jibraeel. During the last Ramadhaan, before the demise of the Prophet, the Qur’an was rechecked and reconfirmed twice. It is therefore clearly evident that the Qur’an was compiled and authenticated by the Prophet himself during his lifetime, both in the written form as well as in the memory of several of his Companions.

Qur’an copied on one common material

The complete Qur’an, along with the correct sequence of the verses, was present during the time of the Prophet (pbuh). The verses however, were written on separate pieces, scrapes of leather, thin flat stones, leaflets, palm branches, shoulder blades, etc. After the demise of the prophet, Abu Bakr (r.a.), the first caliph of Islam ordered that the Qur’an be copied from the various different materials on to a common material and place, which was in the shape of sheets. These were tied with strings so that nothing of the compilation was lost.


Usman (r.a.) made copies of the Qur’an from the original manuscript

Many Companions of the Prophet used to write down the revelation of the Qur’an on their own whenever they heard it from the lips of the Prophet. However what they wrote was not personally verified by the Prophet and thus could contain mistakes. All the verses revealed to the Prophet may not have been heard personally by all the Companions. There were high possibilities of different portions of the Qur’an being missed by different Companions. This gave rise to disputes among Muslims regarding the different contents of the Qur’an during the period of the third Caliph Usman (r.a.). Usman (r.a.) borrowed the original manuscript of the Qur’an, which was authorized by the beloved Prophet (pbuh), from Hafsha (may Allah be pleased with her), the Prophet’s wife. Usman (r.a.) ordered four Companions who were among the scribes who wrote the Qur’an when the Prophet dictated it, led by Zaid bin Thabit (r.a.) to rewrite the script in several perfect copies. These were sent by Usman (r.a.) to the main centers of Muslims.


Diacritical marks were added for non-Arabs

The original manuscript of the Qur’an does not have the signs indicating the vowels in Arabic script. These vowels are known as tashkil, zabar, zair, paish in Urdu and as fatah, damma and qasra in Arabic. The Arabs did not require the vowel signs and diacritical marks for correct pronunciation of the Qur’an since it was their mother tongue. For Muslims of non-Arab origin, however, it was difficult to recite the Qur’an correctly without the vowels. These marks were introduced into the Quranic script during the time of the fifth ‘Umayyad’ Caliph, Malik-ar-Marwan (66-86 Hijri/685-705 C.E.) and during the governorship of Al-Hajaj in Iraq. Some people argue that the present copy of the Qur’an that we have along with the vowels and the diacritical marks is not the same original Qur’an that was present at the Prophet’s time. But they fail to realize that the word ‘Qur’an’ means a recitation. Therefore, the preservation of the recitation of the Qur’an is important, irrespective of whether the script is different or whether it contains vowels. If the pronunciation and the Arabic is the same, naturally, the meaning remains the same too.

Allah Himself has promised to guard the Qur’an Allah has promised in the Qur’an : "We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard.it.(from.corruption).".[Al-Qur’an 15:9] So if you have another Qur'an different from the one version we have in Arabic, bring it forward and let's contest.

Empiree:
Nonsense!!!

What else is new?. Evangelists! I hail thee

You people point to two references from the Quran, 6:14 and 6:161-163, and claim these references show Muhammad as the first Muslim and then turn your attention to another verse of the Quran (7;143) concerning Moses being the first of the believers. Just to further your agenda you may also highlight other Quranic references indicating there were Muslims before Muhammed (pbuh) and Moses namely the first man Adam (Sura 2:30, 34-35, 37) and Abraham as well as other Prophets (Sura 4:163, S. 6:84) as believers. However you and other critics mainly use the Quranic verse about Moses (7:143) and try to put it along side the two concerning Muhammed (6:14 and 6:163) and you then allege contradiction/error.

Here Is The Refutation

Quite simply, the Quran does not claim Muhammed nor Moses to be the first ever Muslim. The critic imposes a faulty understanding on the Quranic verses and alleges a contradiction when there is no contradiction/error.

Despite this it is still thorough and beneficial to offer explanations in order to clear any confusion as well as help highlight the errors of the critics in the hope they realise their mistakes and abjure themselves and eventually become amongst the guided ones, Insha’Allah

Now lt's keep it simple. I feel it is logical to begin this simple refutation with analyzing the reference concerning Moses and then build upon this in a methodical fashion so that you and fellow christian readers can follow with ease. Did the Quran claim Moses to be the first ever believer?

7:143 sees Moses saying he is the first of the believers. However, we do see that this is true as he (Moses) was the first believer amongst his own people. Here is the link http://quran.com/7/143

Moses does not say he is the first believer ‘ever’. He merely claims he is the first of the believers and knowing the context one understands he is not claiming to be the first ever believer from humankind but the first amongst his people to believe, this is apparent as it is a relative term to the “believers” and situational-context tells us that the believers at the time of Moses were essentially the Children of Israel and thus we realise that Moses is referring to himself as the first to believe amongst the Children of Israel.

Critic like yourself fail to mention this and try to present this verse as meaning Moses is the first ever to believe amongst humanity, this is unfair and misleading on the part of the critic especially considering the word “ever” is not in the verse. There is further clarification of the Arabic phrase of the Quran ascribed to Moses (“awwalu almumineena”= “first of the believers”) as there is another reference in the Quran (26:51) where this term comes up and thus explaining the meaning of Moses’ statement of being the “first of the believers (“awwalu almumineena”).

So basic principle of Tafsir (explaining the Quran) is used by explaining a verse of the Quran (the verse concerning Moses, 7:143) by using another part of the Quran (26:51). So what do we learn about the statement of Moses in 7:143 by looking at Q26:51?. http://quran.com/26/51

26:51. “Verily! We really hope that our Lord will forgive us our sins, as we are the first of the believers [in Mûsa (Moses) and in the Monotheism which he has brought from Allâh].”

I dont need to go into the context of the verse, that may be too inundated.


It is not up for debate whether Muhammad (pbuh) was the first Muslim or not. Quite simply he was the first Muslim in the sense that Muhammad was the first Muslim (i.e. who has submitted to God) amongst his own people (the Quraish) at that particular phase in history. This is completely correct. Hence there is no contradiction as Adam was the first Muslim ever while Muhammad was the first Muslim amongst his own people.

There are two Quranic references (6:14 and 6:162-163) the critics bring up, so it is appropriate to analyse the two references. The first of the Quranic references the critics cite (6:14) shows that Allah instructs Muhammed to “say” (Qul): “Verily, I am commanded to be the first of those who submit themselves to Allâh (as Muslims).”:

[b]Qur'an 6:14. Say (O Muhammad SAW): “Shall I take as a Walî (helper, protector, etc.) any other than Allâh, the Creator of the heavens and the earth? And it is He Who feeds but is not fed.” Say: “Verily, I am commanded to be the first of those who submit themselves to Allâh (as Muslims).” And be not you (O Muhammad SAW) of the Mushrikûn [polytheists, pagans, idolaters and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh].[/b]http://quran.com/6/14

Also note the same applies to the second Quranic reference (6:162-163) in that it also begins with Qul (say) and Mohammed is instructed to say: “… I am the first of the Muslims”: Here is the link http://quran.com/6/162-163

There isnt any contradictions. It's very simple. I could have simply said Adam was the first muslim ever on earth. Abraham made Islam permanent. Moses was also the first muslim in his time. Jesus was the first muslim in his time. And Muhammad perfected islam and became the first muslim among his people until end of time. Simple isn't without lengthy post. May Allah's blessings and peace be upon them all. Amin

Empiree:
[b][/b]Reference above^^^^ The first Muslim on earth was Adam (peace be upon him)



This is why Qur'an is unique. It's commited to memory by millions of muslims worldwide.

Good enough. Honestly, you have no real argument against me. If you had original Aramaic bible which Jesus(peace be upon him) spoke would have helped you. That's why you dont have it written on the side like we do to our Qur'an. Some english versions have Arabic Qur'an on the side for cross references. You cant do that. That's why I just have to dismiss your case here. Sorry buddy.



Oh really? Check this out too. On the account of Jesus, you christians believe his 'death' on the cross is a source of your salvation. At the same time, your bible said curse is the one that is hanged. Now here are contradictions:

Galatians 3:13 Good News Translation (GNT)

But by becoming a curse for us Christ has redeemed us from the curse that the Law brings; for the scripture says, “Anyone who is hanged on a tree is under God's curse.”

^this verse is saying Jesus was cursed according to your Bible. Now here is the opposite....

1 Corinthians 12:3Good News Translation (GNT)

I want you to know that no one who is led by God's Spirit can say “A curse on Jesus!” and no one can confess “Jesus is Lord,” without being guided by the Holy Spirit.
Oya, starting fooling me again

Now on sin, there is nothing in the bible to suggest Jesus wanted to die for your sins. According to Christians, "blood of Jesus" was necessary for their salvation. This is contrary to Jesus's teachings. Why can't God just forgive without shedding human blood. This is what Jesus said...he thought people how to pray for forgiveness.

Matthew 6:13-14Good News Translation (GNT)
Do not bring us to hard testing, but keep us safe from the Evil One.’ “If you forgive others the wrongs they have done to you, your Father in heaven will also forgive you."

Matthew 6:12New Life Version (NLV)
Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us.

Another proof is in the Bible that you dont need blood to be shed to have salvation. Proof of this can be found where someone asked Jesus what he can do to have eternal life. The passage is located in:

Luke 10:25-27Good News Translation (GNT)

A teacher of the Law came up and tried to trap Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to receive eternal life?”

Jesus answered him, “What do the Scriptures say? How do you interpret them?”

The man answered, [size=14pt]“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind’; and ‘Love your neighbor as you love yourself.’”[/size]

Then, the man said: “You are right,”

Jesus replied; [size=15pt]“do this and you will live.”[/size] Luke 10:28-29

Very simple. What do you need "blood of Jesus" for? Then, this mumbo jumbo came up from nowhere:

Matthew 26:28Good News Translation (GNT)
“this is my blood, which seals God's covenant, my blood poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

Hebrews 9:22Good News Translation (GNT)
Indeed, according to the Law almost everything is purified by blood, and sins are forgiven only if blood is poured out.

This is crazy^ no doubt is the reason christian nations invading countries and spilling blood all over the world. The above contradict.


This is crazy interpretation that doesnt relate at all. First all, there isnt anything like parable. You simply suggest here that the verse speaks in parables. But your Bible says there is nothing like parable in it. 2 Peter 1:20New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
[size=14pt]Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation[/size]

In the foortnotes of this verse in the same Bible it reads:




Now compare your unfounded interpretation with others that i researched on this subject.

http://www.josh.org/resources/study-research/answers-to-skeptics-questions/are-the-two-accounts-of-the-death-of-judas-contradictory/ This is contrary to your interpretation that "bursting open" means confessing his sin.

This article here contradicts yours: https://carm.org/bible-difficulties/matthew-mark/how-did-judas-die-hanging-or-falling-down

Cc: allnaijablogger ,this is where you need to come for normal intelligent and scholarly debate. Not bashing unnecessarily like others. We all can learn here. There is no fight on this thread. Thanks

[size=1pt]Ubenedictus[/size]

truthman2012:
Good talk bro. Islam of allah is double-faced, designed to lead mankind into deception and eventually take them to hell. When allah speaks in the quran, he would debunk his own statements in the next verses. The quranic quotes you made confirms the bible is true but characteristically, allah denied it in other verses. This is no surprise as we know his true identity. The Devil is a liar.

malvisguy212:
non of you guys have been able to use the quran and proved the bible is corrupted,Many Muslims today say the Bible is corrupted. But there is nothing in the Quran that supports this. There is not one word in the Quran that teaches that the Scriptures of the Jews and Christians have been perverted by man. Instead, the opposite is true. The Quran supports the Bible.
Isn't it interesting that the Muslims'
Quran has nothing to say about the
corruption of the Scriptures of the largest religion on earth? During Muhammad's time Christian influence was known in Mecca. There were Jewish and Christian settlements in the Hijaz, and Christianity ringed the Saudi peninsula. Yet not one word is spoken by "Allah" concerning the Scriptures of their faith and not one word on the corruption of His previous Word.

The New Testament contains the stories
of Jesus identifying Himself as the Son of God, Jesus predicting His crucifixion,
death, and resurrection, Jesus calling
God "Father". Jesus' teachings are
contradicted by Muhammad in the
Quran time and time again. Further, the
Quran contradicts even the Old
Testament stories related to such Biblical figures as Gideon, Saul, David, and Noah. Why didn't Islam's "Allah" speak up on corruption if these Scriptures were inaccurate of false?
These themes are fundamental, why
would the Muslims' god fail to address
their corruption? If such a corruption had actually taken place, wouldn't "Allah" have revealed it in the Quran? The Quran is full of vague statements,
misquoted biblical stories, myths from
pagan, Jewish, and Christian backgrounds, yet "Allah" has nothing to
say about the corruption of His previous
word. How could such an omission occur?

One has to wonder who Muhammad's
"Allah" really was. He certainly didn't
appear to be the "All Knowing", or at
least, if he knew, he wasn't telling.
Or was it that "Allah" didn't know
because Muhammad didn't know?
Jesus taught that false prophets would
come into the world and mislead many.
There are passages from the Quran,
Hadith, and Sira, that deal with this
The Quran clearly testifies that the
Scriptures of the People of the Book, i.e., the Old and New Testaments, are the uncorrupted Word of God. Below is a review of Muhammad's words in the
Quran that present this.

1) 3:50 - "I come to confirm the Torah
which preceded me..."
2) 5:46 - "After them we sent forth Jesus,
the son of Mary, confirming the Torah
already revealed
3) 35:31 - "What We have revealed to you
in the Book is the truth confirming
previous Scriptures. God knows and
observes His servants.
4) 5:46 - 48 "After them we sent forth
Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the
Torah already revealed, and gave him
the Gospel, in which there is guidance
and light, corroborating what was
revealed before it in the Torah, a guide
and an admonition to the righteous.
Therefore let those who follow the Gospel
judge according to what God has
revealed therein.
5) 5:66 - "If they observe the Torah and
the Gospel..."
6) 10::94 - "If you doubt what We have
revealed to you [Muhammad], Ask those
who have read the Scriptures before
you."
7) 2:113 - "The Jews say the Christians
are misguided, and the Christians say it
is the Jews who are misguided. Yet they
both read the Scriptures..."

Muhammad believed in the truths of the Bible. But he did not know what the Bible taught. His ignorance led him to make statements that displayed his lack of knowledge. His self-contradictions prove he was not a prophet of God.

malvisguy212:
God bless you ,Allah cannot be the true God,is words are not steady ,uptil today,I am still trying to differentiate between Allah and muhammed, but I can't they are both one person. Example muhammed thought Arron is the sister of Mary and you know the christians in nijran always exposed him;
(Surah 19:27, 28). It reads:
"Carrying the child, (Jesus), she (Mary)
came to her people, who said to her:
"Mary, this is indeed a strange thing!
Sister of Aaron, your father was never a
LovePeddler-monger, nor was your mother a
harlot."" [The Koran, Dawood's
translation, pages 215, 216].

This verse states that after Mary gave
birth to Christ, her townsfolk reproached her. They thought she was not married, and assumed that she committed sexual sin because she gave birth. In their reproach, they called her, "Sister of Aaron". This mistake was discerned by the Arabic Christians of Najran. There is a record of them exposing Muhammad's mistake about Mary.

In Sahih Muslim, the Hadith related by
Mughirah ibn Shu'bah, #5326, says:
"When I came to Najran, they (the
Christians of Najran) asked me: You read "Sister of Harun", (i.e. Mary), in the
Qur'an, whereas Moses was born well
before Jesus. When I came back to
Allah's Messenger I asked him about
that, and he said: "The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their
persons) after the names of Apostle and
pious persons who had gone before
them."" [Sahih Muslim, translated by
Abdul Siddiqi].

the excuse muhammed gave here exposed his illiteracy, Muhammad said that this manner of using the idiom, "sister of Aaron", was done by the pious people of the "old age", i.e. people who lived during Mary's time. Those people called their fellow citizens after pious persons who had lived earlier. But the Christians of Najran did not recognize the use of this idiom. Although they lived some 600 years after Christ's time, they were familiar with their own religious stories, and certainly those of the Jews. But this idiom struck their ears as peculiar. If the idiom were familiar to them, they would not have objected. But the expression "sister of Aaron", when applied to Mary in relation
to Aaron, was not familiar.

Further, they did not recognize the
technique or model in which this idiom
was used. Had they known the custom
that Muhammad said existed, of people
calling other people "brother" or "sister"
of ancient pious people, like possibly,
"sister of Moses", "brother of David",
"sister of Abraham", "brother of Isaac",
they would have understood what the
Quran was saying and raised no
objection. But both the idiom, and the
model in which it is used, were foreign to them.

If there would be one place where Mary
or someone else might be called "sister
of Aaron", it might be in the Bible. But
there is no place where Mary or anyone
else is metaphorically called "sister of
Aaron".the Arab christians understand that the people of old called there pious ones "SON" and "DAUGHTER" muhammed was soo wrong, who inspired him to write this error? Satan offcorse.

Empiree:
[quote author=truthman2012 post=31761106]I used to wonder too as it is very difficult to differentiate Muhammad and his Allah.
Because when you too proud to learn this is what happens. Very simple thing you dont understand. Read the Qru'an:

Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 35 Surah Fatir verse 8:

Then is one to whom the evil of his deed has been made attractive so he considers it good [like one rightly guided]? For indeed, Allah sends astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. So do not let yourself perish over them in regret. Indeed, Allah is Knowing of what they do.


Numerous verses of the quran say ''obey Allah and his messenger''.
Yes, by obeying the messanger He sent, you then obey God by conforming with His message. Is that difficult to comprehend....seriously?

Muhammad enjoyed the same power as Allah himself.
False!


^Pointing fingers again. Why then you worship Jesus and ascribed Divinity to him? Haven't Christians today "enjoyed" the same power with God?

limamintruth:
First, Jesus Christ understood not only Aramaic. Secondly, Christ Jesus is The Word of God made manisfest in flesh/human form. Note also that He didnt write the Bible. So the issue of which language he spoke shouldnt logically be a cause for argument. And unlike your quran, the word of God as contained in the Bible overshadows any language barrier. Meaning any language may be used to spread God's message of the Bible.




The Biblical verses on forgiveness which you quoted & delibereately tried so hard to distort out of context are not admonitions to God, but solely admonitions to us humans (as a guide to righteous living here on earth).

No where in these verses was it stated that salvation through Jesus is wrong as you claim. And yes, Jesus took our curse and freed us eternally from sin. Thus, anyone who believes in Him will enjoy the freedom from sin He established through His death on the cross.

However, if truly you know of any Bible verse that expressly condemn Christ's sacrifice of Himself for our salvation, kindly share same here

And while waiting for the appropriate evidence from you, do enrich your brain with the following:

◄John 4:42 ► (NIV)
They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the SAVIOUR of the world."

KJV
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the SAVIOUR of the world.

◄Matthew 1:21 ► NIV

She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will SAVE his people from their sins."

KJV
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall SAVE his people from their sins.

◄PROPHECY ON CHRIST'S DEATH/SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS►

Isaiah 53 KJV

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


With regards to your argument on the issue of Judas death, permit me to once again refer you back to my earlier response to you as seen repeated below :

Bible account on how Judas died is as rightly recorded in the book of Mathew, while Apostle Peter's brief analogy of Judas death was stated figuratively, hence shouldnt be interpreted literarily.

Lets then carefully analyse Acts 1:18 as you mentioned:-
" Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity(i.e sin of betrayal), and falling headlong(i.e deeper in sin by further committing suicide), he bursts asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out(i.e his innate secret was exposed).
v. 19 states: And it was known unto all the dwellers in Jerusalem[can you now see how this v.19 corroborates my explanation above ]; in so much as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. (Its named as such cos the field was bought with blood money).

Therefore, Acts 1:18 never mentioned or inferred that Judas fell from any hill/rock/mountain mister.

Infact, why not ask yourself this simple question then:

If indeed we are to interprete the verse above literarily (as you insist we should) and this same verse states that Judas fell 'headlong', why then was it his belly that burst open & not his head/brain?

limamintruth:
Hahahaha, this is what i call sweet nonsense (sorry to say) Your argument cannot hold water bro., cos just as you ignorantly argued that no where in your quran was the term 'ever' used in addressing Moses as first believer, so also nowhere did the quran refer to Adam as the first 'ever' believer. Furthermore in line with your myopic explanation, nowhere was it stated that either Moses or Muhammed are first believers 'only amongst their generation/people'. Meaning, the way the quran refer to Adam as first believer is the same way Moses et al were also addressed (without specifics to 'amongst their people' as you desperately tried to include. So you can very well now see that your argument is completely flawed Simply admit you have no answer to my question rather than assuming what is not stated in quran, lol.



Millions of muslims who witnessed the time of your Prophet or which muslims are you referring to above?

And hope you know that the human brain is not immune from memory distortion during recall?
Thus, the reconstructive process of memory recall is subject to distortion by other cognitive functions in the Human Brain. This is basic human science (& I guess this was what your Caliph Uthman had to contend with during his reign )

So i'l appreciate if you provide us with a more appropriate answer to my previous question cos your explanation as i highlighted above doesnt just make any sense.

And while at it, here's another question for you :

why are there many numerical contradictions in the Quran?
We know that God cannot make an error in doing simple calculations. So the question is:

"How many days did it take to create the Heavens and Earth?"
(Quran-7:54): Your guardian-Lord is Allah who created the heavens and earth in Six Days (Quran-10:3): Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and earth in Six Days (Quran- 11:7): He it is Who created the heavens and earth in Six Days Quran-25:59: He Who created the heavens and earth and all that is between, in Six Days
While we can see that the above verses clearly state that God (Allah) created the heaven and the Earth in 6 days; the verses below stated differently thus -
(Quran-41:9): Is it that ye deny Him who created the earth in Two Days ?
(Quran- 41:10): He set on the (earth) Mountains standing firm high above it, and bestowed blessing on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR DAYS…
(Quran-41:12): So He completed them (heavens) as seven firmaments in Two days and …

Now kindly do the math then:
2(for earth) + 4(for nourishment) + 2 (for heavens) = 8 days;
How then did the quran arrive at its 6days in some of its verses?

Empiree:
Lols
Refuted by what? How can you refute basic human science facts with 'nothing'? undecided
Or are these your million muslims super-humans Even an absolute illiterate wont spew such baseless exaggeration.
So simply admit you have nothing relevant to say on this ish & stop claiming what does not exist.
No, empire is not going back n fourth on compilation of Quran. You have no evidence to substantiate your position. I have asked you bring different Qur'an in Arabic which contradicts each other. You failed. So case closed on that. Merely posting links after links written by clowns doesnt help. Physical evidence will do. But you have none.


Once again, this is it (believing you'l profer a better answer to the question this time around):Who Was the First Muslim according to the Quran? Kindly cite relevant quranic verse(s) to support your answer.
Note though: According to several passages in the Quran, Muhammad was the first Muslim:
Say: Shall I choose for a protecting friend other than Allah, the Originator of the heavens and the earth, Who feedeth and is never fed?Say: I am ordered to be the first to surrender [aslama] (unto Him). And be not thou (O Muhammad) of the idolaters. S. 6:14 Pickthall
Say, verily my Lord hath directed me into a right way, a true religion, the sect of Abraham the orthodox; and he was no idolater. Say, verily my prayers, and my worship, and my life, and my death are dedicated unto God, the Lord of all creatures: He hath no companion.This have I been commanded:I am the first Moslem(Wa 'Ana 'Awwalu Al-Muslimin). S. 6:161-163 Sale
He hath no associate. This am I commanded,and I am the first of the Muslims. S. 6:163 Rodwell
Say (O Muhammad): Lo! I am commanded to worship Allah, making religion pure for Him (only).And I am commanded to be the first of those who are muslims(surrender unto Him). S. 39:11-12 Pickthall cool
You disappointed me though. I thought you wanted to come up something big grin This simple thing that I already explained?. Haba my brother. Every muslim and some non-muslims understood this. Some basic Quranic evidences were provided earlier. Anyways, in order to understand this, I may have to walk you through "beginner mode" because quoting verses may mean nothing to you.

Definition of Islam and Muslim

Islam: the meaning comes from the Arabic verbal noun s-l-m. When appropriate vowel markers are added, the word Islam appears. The etymology of s-l-m is to submit, accept, or surrender. From this comes Islam’s conventional definition of surrender to God.Islam in short means peace acquired by submitting your wills to Almighty God.

Muslim: also has its roots in the s-l-m verb. It is a participle of the verb and refers to a person who engages in the act of submission, acceptance, or surrender. Therefore a Muslim is a person who submits to the will of God, or a follower of Islam. So the saying that Islam is a new religion is misconception.

To understand what Islam is all about, we should first examine what the word ‘Islam’ itself means. ‘Islam’ is an Arabic word which means the submission of one’s will to the only true God. A person who submits his will to God is called as a ‘Muslim’ in Arabic.

Unlike the other religions, Islam was not named after any person or any tribe, nor was it decided by a later generation of man. Islam is not a new religion brought by Prophet Muhammad into Arabia. It is the religion of mankind since the first man, and it was the religion of all the God’s prophets sent to mankind. God Himself chose Islam as the name of His religion. God states in Quran:

“This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion.” (Quran 5:3)

So, if we see Muslim as the ones who gives himself to God, then yes Adam is the first Muslim. But if we see Muslim as the ones who gives himself to God through Islam, then Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W- peace be upon him) is the first Muslim. Key word here is submission to God's will

Though Allah sent Adam (peace be upon him) as the first human on earth, but that time Islam not yet to be "exist" means that though Adam (Peace be upon him) and his family worshiped to Allah, but it was not yet in the name of Islam because again, Islam not yet to be "exist" until Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) era.

According to what I have known and researched, the first to be a Muslim is Prophet Muhammad (Peace be upon him) himself then As-Sabiqun al-Awwalun (Arabic: السَّابِقُونَ الأَوَّلُونَ) (The first ones to get into Islam) from Muhajirin and Ansar.

Let's see Qur'an surah Al Maidah (5) ayat 3 :

Qur'an 5:3. ...This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. But whoever is forced by severe hunger with no inclination to sin - then indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

When this ayat^ was given, that was when Islam first to be "exist". After that, take a look at this Qur'an surah Al An'am (6) ayat 14:

Say (O Muhammad SAW): “Shall I take as a Walî (helper, protector, etc.) any other than Allâh, the Creator of the heavens and the earth? And it is He Who feeds but is not fed.” Say: “Verily, I am commanded to be the first of those who submit themselves to Allâh (as Muslims).” And be not you (O Muhammad SAW) of the Mushrikûn [polytheists, pagans, idolaters and disbelievers in the Oneness of Allâh].

We Muslims simple put it this way: Adam(peace be upon him) was the first Muslim(someone who submitted to God alone) and since he was the first man created on earth. Click here http://quran.com/2/3034%20Chapter%202%20verses%2030-33 . Abraham(peace be upon him) made the same religion permanent (i:e worship of One God). Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) perfected the religion know as Al-Islam. This is logical deduction.

You gonna have to agree with me that God did not create first man as a disbeliever. The first creation(Adam) must be worshiper of One true God and all other prophets and messangers before Muhammad(peace be upon him). References of this can be found in Qur'an itself that all prophets brought islam.

"And verily, we have sent among every Ummah(nation) a Messenger, (with the command), 'Worship Allah (Alone) and avoid (or Keep away from) At-Taghut (i.e., all false deities)." (Surah 16:36)

"And We did not send any Messenger before you but we revealed to them (saying): La Ilaha illa Ana (none has the right to be worshiped but I, So worship Me (God)."(Surah 21:25)

"Indeed We have sent Messengers with clear proofs, and revealed with them the Scripture and the Balance (Justice) that mankind may keep up justice." (Surah 57:25)

"Mankind were one community and Allah sent Prophets with glad tidings and warnings, and with them He sent the Scripture in truth to judge between people in matters wherein they differed." (Surah 2:2 13)

We can’t find anywhere in the Bible that God revealed the name of His religion as Judaism or Christianity. Christianity itself was named after Jesus Christ while Judaism was named after the tribe of Judah. Both names had no divine origin or approval from God.

Islam was brought by our prophet Muhammad peace be upon him. Though there were many prophets before him, they brought the same religion, the same concept and the same God, Allah, but with a different name. However for us in the modern times we are obligated to follow the religion that our prophet (pbuh) has brought. Because he is the last messenger of Allah. He was sent to the whole world. Not just Arabs.

"Say (O Muhammad): 'O mankind! I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allah, to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth there is no God worthy of worship but He; it is He Who gives life and causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e., Muhammad !), who believes in Allah and His Words: follow him that you may be guided." (Surah 7:158)

"And We have not sent you, [O Muhammad], except as a mercy to the worlds." (Qur'an 21:107)

Quran 4:163

Verily, We have inspired you (O Muhammad SAW) as We inspired Nuh (Noah) and the Prophets after him; We (also) inspired Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma’il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), Ya’qub (Jacob), and Al-Asbat [the twelve sons of Ya’qub (Jacob)], ‘Iesa (Jesus), Ayub (Job), Yunus (Jonah), Harun (Aaron), and Sulaiman (Solomon), and to Dawud (David) We gave the Zabur (Psalms)

And

Quran 42:13

He (Allah) has ordained for you the same religion (Islam) which He ordained for Nuh (Noah), and that which We have inspired in you (O Muhammad SAW), and that which We ordained for Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses) and ‘Iesa (Jesus) saying you should establish religion (i.e. to do what it orders you to do practically), and make no divisions in it (religion) (i.e. various sects in religion).

Unlike other prophets and messangers, they were sent to their own people.

* However, the Quran also mentions other ancient Prophets of old as first muslim, thereby contradicting itself.
Well, I summed it up there. It's not contradiction at all. Please reference logical deduction I gave up there. Ancient prophets were the first Muslims among their people. The reason for this is because their mission was not universal. Let's take people of Israelite for instance. Anytime God sent them a prophet was meant to guide the people to the Right Path. After that prophet completed his mission, before another prophet was sent, the people have distorted message brought by previous prophet. It's was necessary for God to send another prophet or messanger to bring them back to God. This could a generation(s) after. Those people at that time worshiped idols. When a new prophet was sent he became the first Muslim amongst them and so fourth. We saw clear example of that with Moses(peace be upon him). His people in the beginning believed but after Moses, they turned back on their heel. This is just a layman explanation.

Therefore, the Quran mentions that Adam, Noah, the Patriarchs, the twelve tribes of Israel, Moses, Jesus etc., who all lived a long time before Muhammad, as first believers also:
E.G,
Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."… And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith. We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."… When learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. S. 2:30, 34-35, 37 lipsrsealed e.t.c.
I think I summarized everything above. But please if you are not clear enough I can definitely elaborate as time permits. This is very simple thing. It's not contradiction at all.
No problem man, take your time & do every research possible on that cos i aint in a rush.
I am glad you not in rush. You gave me too much assignments at a time. I am loving it tough grin grin grin grin

I am sure there are other muslims who could even explain better. We understand this legitimate questions or concerns you brought. It just depends on how individual explains it. Let me give you similar examples to show that they are not contradictions. In Sura 3 verse 33

Verily, Allah chose Adam, and Nuh (Noah), and the family of Ibrahim (Abraham) and the family of ‘Imran (in dignity) above all the people of the world. (Imran:33)

Now you may want to ask who was first chosen?. Without inserting anything in the bracket, we muslims understand. For the weak link, that's why some translations insert in the bracket (at their time)
Now, look at this as well:

O Children of Israel, remember My favor that I have bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds.(2:47)

And

O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds.(2:122)

You may ask the same question like who was first chosen or preferred by God between Adam, Noah, family of Ibrahim, family of Imran and the children of Israel?. The answer is clear that Qur'an is talking about at respected era.

In closing, this last verse sums it all. It simply says all prophets and messangers brought One message from God. Many messangers. One message.

“And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad P.B.U.H) but We revealed to him (saying): Lâ ilâha illa Ana [none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allah)], so worship Me (Alone and none else).” [Al-Anbiya 21:25]

Empiree:
This one "na brainer". Are you ready to succumb and bow out?.

To summarize your question

Here Is Your Claim:



I have to give credit where credit is due. One of the credited translations of these verses is said to be Abdullah Yusuf Ali(God bless him). Although not prefect. I have listen to this over and over again from lecturers and scholars. This will not be addressed twice. Kindly respect that. Thanks

Let us look at Ayah (verse) 7:54 "Your Guardian-Lord Is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He established Himself on the Throne (of authority): He draweth the night as a veil O'er the day, each seeking the other in rapid succession: He created the sun, the moon, and the stars, (all) governed by laws under His command. Is it not His to create and to govern? Blessed be Allah, the Cherisher and Sustainer of the worlds !"

Let us look at Ayah (verse) 10:3 "Verily your Lord is Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth in six days, then He established Himself on the Throne (of authority), regulating and governing all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (Hath been obtained). This is Allah your Lord; Him therefore Serve ye: will ye not receive admonition?"

Let us look at Ayah (verse) 11:7 "He (Allah) it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six days and His Throne was over the waters that He mighty try you, which of you is best in conduct. but if thou were to say to them, 'ye shall indeed be raised up after death,' the unbelievers would be sure to say, 'this is nothing but obvious sorcery!'"

Let us look at Ayah (verse) 25:59 "He Who created the heavens and the earth and all that is between, in six days, and is firmly established on the Throne (of authority): Allah, Most Gracious: Ask thou, then, about Him of any acquainted (with such things)."

Let us look at Ayah (verse) 32:4 "It is Allah Who has Created the heavens and the earth, and all between them, in six days, then He established Himself on the Throne (of authority); ye have none, besides Him, to protect or intercede (for you): Will ye not then receive admonition?"


Let us look at Ayat (verses) 41:9-12 "(verse 9) Say: Is it that ye Deny Him (Allah) Who created the earth in two days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the worlds. (verse 10) He set on the (earth) mountains standing firm, high above it, and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measured therein all things to give them nourishment in due proportion, in four days, in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (sustenance). (verse 11) Moreover, He Comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: 'Come ye together, Willingly or unwillingly.' They said: 'We do come (together), in willing obedience.' (verse 12) So He completed them as seven firmaments in two days and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We (Allah) adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) The Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge."

There is no contradiction in the Noble Verses above.

In the above Holy Verses (7:54, 10:3, 11:7, 32:4, and 25:59) we see that Allah Almighty clearly states that He created the universe in six days. Holy Verses (41:9-12) describe the primal creation of our physical earth and the physical heavens around us. If we count the two days mentioned in (41:9), the four days, mentioned in (41:10), and the two days mentioned in (41:12), we get a total of eight days. However, the four days in (41:10) include the two days in (41:9), because the processes described in (41:9-10) form one series. In the one case it is the creation of the formless matter of the earth; and in the other case it is the gradual evolution of the form of the earth, its mountains and seas, and its animal and vegetable life, with the "nourishment in due proportion, (41:10)" proper to each.


To further understand the complexity of the creation of the earth, let us look at Ayat (verses) 15:19-20 "And the earth We (Allah) have spread out (Like a carpet); set thereon mountains firm and immovable; and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance. And We (Allah) have provided therein means of subsistence- for you and for those for whose sustenance ye are not responsible." Majesty, order, beauty, and harmony are shown in all Allah's Creation, but especially in the heavens. Coming nearer to man, Allah's care for man and His goodness are shown (besides His other qualities) in His creation of the earth. In highly poetical language, the earth is described as spread out like a carpet, on which the eternal hills act as weights to keep it steady.


Let us also look at Ayah (verse) 13:3 "And it is He (Allah) Who spread out the earth, and set thereon mountains, standing firm, and (flowing) rivers: and fruit of every kind He (Allah) made in pairs, two and two: He draweth the night as a veil O'er the day. Behold, verily in these things are Signs for those who consider!"

Let us also look at Ayah (verse) 16:15 "And He (Allah) has set up on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with you; and rivers and roads; that ye may guide yourselves,"

In Holy Verses (15:19-20, 13:3, and 16:15) we see that Allah Almighty took special care in planet earth to provide all the necessary means for us to be able to survive. This shows that the four days in (41:10) include the two days in (41:9), because the processes described in (41:9-10) form one series.

Note: (41:9) talks about the creation of earth. (41:10, 13:3, 15:19-20, 13:3, and 16:15) talk about the gradual improvment and gifts from Allah Almighty of earth for us. The creation of earth without its complexity took two days, and the wonderful creations and gifts that Allah Almighty provided for us on earth took another two days.

Courtesy: [size=3pt]Dr. Zakir Naik[/size]

Dr. Naik captured what you did

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIR4QK7xMTU

He even explained better than my post

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6Dev0OrSGs

My assigment to you is in the Bible, it says God rested (perhaps to drink and take a nap) during His creation of heavens and earth. This is blasphemy. Quran on the other hand refuted such a grotesque statement to be shirk. This is evidence from Bible that God rested

Genesis 2:2New King James Version (NKJV)
And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

Revised Standard Version (RSV)
And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had done.

In Islam we consider this blasphemy. This is very demeaning and insulting. God doesn't sleep nor rest.

Allah! There is no god but Allah, He is the Living the Self- subsisting Eternal. No slumber can seize him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permits? He knows what (appears to his creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they compass aught of his knowledge except as He wills. His throne does extend over the heavens and the earth and He feels no fatigue in guarding and preserving them. For He is the Most High the Supreme (in glory). Surah (Chapter) al-Baqarah (The Cow) Qur-an 2:255


Again, It should be emphasized that Islam consider saying that the Lord slept or sleeps as a big unforgiving offense in respect to the Lord the Almighty Creator. Anyone who believes that the Lord the Almighty Creator slept or sleeps put himself in the category of unbeliever and he is responsible for himself at the Day of Judgment when the Lord the Almighty Creator asks him:" Did I sleep? Do I sleep? How I sleep? Prepare your answer for that big day.

limamintruth:
But why do you do this to yourself? cheesy
I only asked a very simple & straighforward question, hence, i expected your reply to have been simple & straighforward also. But all you did was to beat around the bush and you still ended up not answering my question.

I didnt ask you to form a personal opinion of who the first muslim is, rather the question was: Who was the first muslim ACCORDING TO THE QURAN (if really you are acquainted with the quran well enough wink ) ?
So why is your lengthy answer solely based on opinion? undecided


Empiree:
E.G,
Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not."… And behold, We said to the angels: "Bow down to Adam" and they bowed down. Not so Iblis: he refused and was haughty: He was of those who reject Faith. We said: "O Adam! dwell thou and thy wife in the Garden; and eat of the bountiful things therein as (where and when) ye will; but approach not this tree, or ye run into harm and transgression."… When learnt Adam from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord Turned towards him; for He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. S. 2:30, 34-35, 37e.t.c.

“And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad P.B.U.H) but We revealed to him (saying): Lâ ilâha illa Ana [none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allah)], so worship Me (Alone and none else).”[Al-Anbiya 21:25]

Please how do these quranic verses you cited above answer my simple answer of who the first muslim is for God's sake Empiree
The quran refers to so many individuals as 'first', so isnt there any other Quranic verse that clearly highlights who is the 'overall' first? shocked undecided

Empiree:

"And We did not send any Messenger before you but we revealed to them (saying): La Ilaha illa Ana (none has the right to be worshiped but I, So worship Me (God)."(Surah 21:25)
"Indeed We have sent Messengers with clear proofs, and revealed with them the Scripture and the Balance (Justice) that mankind may keep up justice."(Surah 57:25)

Unfortunately, the two verses above quoted by you even contradict each other sef. lipsrsealed
Maybe you need to call them Rilwane & co. on this one oooo, lol grin

Empiree:
In HolyVerses (15:19-20, 13:3, and 16:15)we see that Allah Almighty took special care in planet earth to provide all the necessary means for us to be able to survive. This shows that the four days in(41:10)include the two days in(41:9), because the processes described in(41:9-10)form one series.
Notesad41:9)talks about the creation of earth.(41:10, 13:3, 15:19-20, 13:3, and 16:15)talk about the gradual improvment and gifts from Allah Almighty of earth for us. The creation of earth without its complexity took two days, and the wonderful creations and gifts that Allah Almighty provided for us on earth took another two days.

So are you insinuating now that according to Quran, the earth was created in 4 days by God? shocked
Remember though that my question was simply:
How many days was the Heavens & earth created by God according to your Quran?
(so kindly answer this clearly pls cool )

Empiree:


Genesis 2:2New King James Version (NKJV)
And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, andHe restedon the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done, andhe restedon the seventh day from all his work which he had done.
In Islam we consider this blasphemy. This is very demeaning and insulting. God doesn't sleep nor rest.

Yea, I agree with you that unlike your quran(that has lots of contradictory verses grin ), the Holy Bible message is clear & unambigous on the number of days God created the heavens & earth cheesy tongue
Everyone can clearly see that from the Bible verse you quoted above wink

And i can see how you'v suddenly moved from the issue of contradictions to blasphemy right? cheesy
Thank God we are heading somewhere then cool

Well in response to your assumption, the Bible never said anything about God 'sleeping'; rather, we are told God RESTED on the '7th day' after creation.
Remember falsifying Biblical facts wont do your argument any good. cool

Empiree:
In HolyVerses (15:19-20, 13:3, and 16:15)we see that Allah Almighty took special care in planet earth to provide all the necessary means for us to be able to survive. This shows that the four days in(41:10)include the two days in(41:9), because the processes described in(41:9-10)form one series.
Notesad41:9)talks about the creation of earth.(41:10, 13:3, 15:19-20, 13:3, and 16:15)talk about the gradual improvment and gifts from Allah Almighty of earth for us. The creation of earth without its complexity took two days, and the wonderful creations and gifts that Allah Almighty provided for us on earth took another two days.

So are you insinuating now that according to Quran, the earth was created in 4 days by God? shocked
Remember though that my question was simply:
How many days was the Heavens & earth created by God according to your Quran?
(so kindly answer this clearly pls cool )

Empiree:


Genesis 2:2New King James Version (NKJV)
And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, andHe restedon the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
And on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done, andhe restedon the seventh day from all his work which he had done.
In Islam we consider this blasphemy. This is very demeaning and insulting. God doesn't sleep nor rest.

Yea, I agree with you that unlike your quran(that has lots of contradictory verses grin ), the Holy Bible message is clear & unambigous on the number of days God created the heavens & earth cheesy tongue
Everyone can clearly see that from the Bible verse you quoted above wink

And i can see how you'v suddenly moved from the issue of contradictions to blasphemy right? cheesy
Thank God we are heading somewhere then cool

Well in response to your assumption, the Bible never said anything about God 'sleeping'; rather, we are told God RESTED on the '7th day' after creation.
Remember falsifying Biblical facts wont do your argument any good. cool

Note that the word 'rest' doesnt necessarily mean or translate to 'sleep'.
The term 'rest' as used in the Bible, simply signifies 'a moment of refreshing ease or inactivity after labour' or betterstill, 'a period or interval of inactivity, solitude, or tranquillity'. Thus, there's nothing blasphemous about saying God rested bro.
It only shows an end to God's creation work. cool

It is greatly preposterous to think that God Almighty sleeps.
David himself confirmed thus:

◄Psalm 121:4 ► NIV

"Indeed, He who watches over Israel will neither slumber nor sleep." cool

Empiree:

Courtesy:Dr. Zakir Naik
Dr. Naik captured what you did

Lol, I dont remember asking Dr. Zakir Naik any question. But i'm happy he came to your rescue, though my question hasnt still been answered. grin

plainbibletruth:
Even the Quran shows Jesus to be more UNIQUE than any other ‘prophet’ yet this FACT is ignored by millions of Muslims who should accord him the reverence he deserves by accepting him as their saviour.

Instead Empiree, Rilwayne001, and Co are busy arguing about non-essentials while their eternal destinies are at stake.

3 UNPARALLED UNIQUE THINGS ABOUT JESUS


Jesus birth was unique and supernatural:
- Sura 3:45 – 47
Jesus performed miracles, signs and wonders:
- Sura 3: 49; 5:110
Jesus ascended to heaven, so the end of his life was unique and supernatural:
- Sura 3:55

Therefore Christ’s life was unique and supernatural.
Jesus died on the cross, so that we might have forgiveness of our sins, and also rose from the grave, and conquered death.

Wouldn’t these – his unique and supernatural birth, his unique and supernatural life and his unique and supernatural end of his life – make him the ONLY PERSON who ever lived and had all these UNPARALLELED qualities in these three areas COMBINED and not just in one or two?

Do these not make him the MOST UNIQUE and supernatural person that ever lived?
Does that not demand an UNEQUALED response to him from you?

Truly that (responding to him by believing on him as SAVIOUR) will be the starting point to knowing him more and understanding the Bible.
Any other thing will be beating about the bush or groping in the DARK.

Empiree:
Nice try...[quote author=plainbibletruth post=31892462]Even the Quran shows Jesus to be more UNIQUE than any other ‘prophet’ yet this FACT is ignored by millions of Muslims who should accord him the reverence he deserves by accepting him as their saviour.
ok. let's see


3 UNPARALLED UNIQUE THINGS ABOUT Jesus
Okay. We first need to difine what "unparalleled" and "unique" mean.

Unparalled simply means exceptional, having no equal etc

unique means being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else. Now let's take a look at your assertions

Jesus birth was unique and supernatural:
- Sura 3:45 – 47
Click the link for the verses http://quran.com/3/45-47 simply means he was born without father. But he has mother, Mary. Now let's take a look at Adam. He has no father and mother. Quran speaks: "Truly, the likeness of Jesus, in God's sight, is as Adam's likeness; He created him of dust, then said He unto him, 'Be,' and he was." (Sura 3:59)

So Jesus had at least mother. Adam had none. So Adam's creation is more unique in this sense. Now let's take a look at the Bible, the tale of Melchizedek. Bible described him.

King James Version (KJV) Hebrews 7:1-4

1- For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; 2- To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; 3- Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. 4- Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

So it's clear from both Qur'an and the Bible that despite Jesus unique birth, there are others who were more unique and unparalled than Jesus because:

Adam and Jesus had the beginning

Adam had no father, no mother

Jesus had a mother

Melchizedek on the other hand had no beginning, no genealogy, no father no mother yet he is also called son of God

Your claimed refuted here. grin


Jesus performed miracles, signs and wonders:
- Sura 3: 49; Sura 5:110
"[The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic." Click here: http://quran.com/5/110

Click here http://quran.com/3/49

"And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah. And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah. And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers."

So in the verses above, we muslims do not dispute Jesus performed miracles, But he did so with help of God. The verses are so clear.

Now let's look into Bible other prophets that performed miracles.

Elijah: James 5:17 ->Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the earth for three years and six months.

1 Kings 17:14-16 -> "For thus says the LORD God of Israel, 'The bowl of flour shall not be exhausted, nor shall the jar of oil be empty, until the day that the LORD sends rain on the face of the earth.'" So she went and did according to the word of Elijah, and she and he and her household ate for many days. The bowl of flour was not exhausted nor did the jar of oil become empty, according to the word of the LORD which He spoke through Elijah.

1 Kings 17:22-23
The LORD heard the voice of Elijah, and the life of the child returned to him and he revived. Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house and gave him to his mother; and Elijah said, "See, your son is alive."

1 Kings 18:36
At the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, Elijah the prophet came near and said, "O LORD, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, today let it be known that You are God in Israel and that I am Your servant and I have done all these things at Your word.

2 Kings 1:10-12
Elijah replied to the captain of fifty, "If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty " Then fire came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty. So he again sent to him another captain of fifty with his fifty. And he said to him, "O man of God, thus says the king, 'Come down quickly.'" Elijah replied to them, "If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty." Then the fire of God came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.

1 Kings 18:41-45
Now Elijah said to Ahab, "Go up, eat and drink; for there is the sound of the roar of a heavy shower." So Ahab went up to eat and drink. But Elijah went up to the top of Carmel; and he crouched down on the earth and put his face between his knees. He said to his servant, "Go up now, look toward the sea." So he went up and looked and said, "There is nothing." And he said, "Go back" seven times. read more.It came about at the seventh time, that he said, "Behold, a cloud as small as a man's hand is coming up from the sea." And he said, "Go up, say to Ahab, 'Prepare your chariot and go down, so that the heavy shower does not stop you.'" In a little while the sky grew black with clouds and wind, and there was a heavy shower. And Ahab rode and went to Jezreel. -

2 Kings 2:8
Elijah took his mantle and folded it together and struck the waters, and they were divided here and there, so that the two of them crossed over on dry ground.

Elisha also performed miracles. Let's stop here. So other prophets also have unparalleled qualities of Jesus(peace be upon him)


Jesus ascended to heaven, so the end of his life was unique and supernatural:
- Sura 3:55
http://quran.com/3/55
"[Mention] when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you [in submission to Allah alone] superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ."

So in the Quran verse above, God raised him up. Jesus did not raise himself. According to your Bible, Jesus did not ascend. He was killed. John 19 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+19

Elijah Ascends to Heaven 2 Kings 2 New King James Version (NKJV)
And it came to pass, when the Lord was about to take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. 2 Then Elijah said to Elisha, “Stay here, please, for the Lord has sent me on to Bethel.”

So here according to your Bible Jesus was murdered. Elijah on the other hand ascended to heaven. So here we see Elijah has same unparalleled qualities like Jesus.


Therefore Christ’s life was unique and supernatural.
Jesus died on the cross, so that we might have forgiveness of our sins, and also rose from the grave, and conquered death.
Nonsense!


Wouldn’t these – his unique and supernatural birth, his unique and supernatural life and his unique and supernatural end of his life – make him the ONLY PERSON who ever lived and had all these UNPARALLELED qualities in these three areas COMBINED and not just in one or two?
Irrelevant. Reference above. You are refuted.


Any other thing will be beating about the bush or groping in the DARK.
Remove the mole from your eyes. Embrace Islam. Jesus is not Lord. He was a prophet and messanger. Therefore, there were others like him.

plainbibletruth:
That was a fair attempt!

But you missed out one simple thing:
The FACTS of the virgin pregnancy and birth, the miracles and the ascension of Jesus Christ make him the MOST UNIQUE and SUPERNATURAL PERSON who ever lived because he is the ONLY ONE that has or combines ALL these three attributes put together.

So by your amplification -
Unparalled simply means exceptional, having no equal etc

unique means being the only one of its kind; unlike anything else. Now let's take a look at your assertions


Note again what I said: he is the ONLY ONE that has or combines ALL these three attributes put together in one person.
I challenge you to show otherwise.

NONE of all those you attempted has ALL THREE put together in ONE PERSON!
In spite of this Muslims still don’t accord him the high place he deserves.

Now do you get it?

Jesus Christ is therefore more than a prophet or a messenger.
Jesus Christ is saviour and Lord of all!

plainbibletruth:
I’m amazed!
I’m amazed because I believe you should be smarter.
The very first issue I presented is the uniqueness of Jesus from the Quran. Is this a fact or not? The FACTS of the virgin pregnancy and birth, the miracles and the ascension of Jesus Christ IN ONE PERSON.

Is there anybody who combines all the three attributes I listed in one person? You did not address this.

I believe I was plain on what I presented; so I don’t know the “wayo” you’re talking about.

In addition I didn’t say Jesus Christ was not a prophet or a messenger. Not at all! I only added that he was more than those. He combined those offices and much more. So your quotes did not really disprove anything.

You haven’t proved my challenge wrong. Simply this: show any other person who has or combines ALL these three attributes put together in one person.

It is not about cooking up my own opinion. I’m saying that evidence from your holy book, the Quran, shows clearly the uniqueness of Jesus Christ. The issue then is why has this fact escaped Muslims like yourself? Strange?

When the evidence from the Quran about Jesus is accepted by any Muslim it becomes easy to then go to the more comprehensive source of information about him – the Bible – to get details on him that show him for who he truly is.

So on your question; the Gospels in the following portions give answer:
As Lord – John 8:58, 11:25, 13:13-14. Luke 6:5, 22:67-70, 23:3. Additionally the book of Revelation 1:8.
As Saviour – John 10:11, 15.
These are clearly Jesus’ own words and claims.

Empiree:
Don't be amazed. I delibrately ignored it becuase you make no sense. And since you iterate you got your evidences from Qur'an, then let's see what Quran says about status of Jesus before God and muslims. Quran says: Jesus was no more than a messanger(prophet). Sura 5:75

"The Messiah (the son of Mary) was NO MORE THAN A MESSANGER. Many were messangers that passed away before him His mother was siddiqah(she believe in the word of Allah and His Books). The both used to eat (as human do but Allah does not eat). Look how We make the signs clear to them, yet look at how they are diluded away from the Truth"

As for his uniqueness you talked about, Quran say it merely a sign for mnakind. And that his similitude is that of Adam.

Sura 3:59-60

The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam. He created him from dust and then said to him "Be! and he was". The truth (comes) from Allah alone; so be not of those who doubt".


So from Qur'an it's clear that Jesus is 100% human being, a messnager and prophet of God. Nothing more. And his status as God's servant can never be undermined by Muslims.

Now, on the issue of him being called God in your Bible, then, you have to agree with me that your Bible contradicts itself if you think Jesus is God when your same Bible called him prophet, servant. Besides, places he's called God/god in the bible it's Bible writers and others that called him by that.

So it is your persnal doctrine to think because Jesus had those 3 unparralled attritubes he's more than prophet. Prove to me from your Bible that Jesus said that. Very simple question.

As for "returning to source" according to you, which source exactly?. Bible?. Now let's see.

Show me where in the Bible Jesus said he was given Bible
Show me where in the Bible it called itself bible
Show me in the bible where it says this is the bible "according to Jesus"
And which bible exactly because you have many of them. I can name them if you want.

plainbibletruth:
[size=6pt][/size]

I was not the one who brought up the issue you are raising.

My claim is simply this:
According to the Quran -
Jesus birth was unique and supernatural:
- Sura 3:45 – 47
Jesus performed miracles, signs and wonders:
- Sura 3: 49; 5:110
Jesus ascended to heaven, so the end of his life was unique and supernatural:
- Sura 3:55

Therefore Christ’s life was unique and supernatural. The FACTS of the virgin pregnancy and birth, the miracles and the ascension of Jesus Christ make him the MOST UNIQUE and SUPERNATURAL PERSON who ever lived because he is the ONLY ONE that has or combines ALL these three attributes put together.

However this fact seems to have escaped Muslims like yourself.

You revere Mohammed: You give him deferential honour. Yet Jesus who was more unique in the ways pointed out above is given only a second place (or perhaps third or fourth or … … place?) by you.
Does that not seem strange?

plainbibletruth:
[size=7pt][/size]
My goal is simple – to open your eyes to see that from your Quran if the facts of the virgin pregnancy and birth, the miracles and the ascension of Jesus Christ in one person are clearly, honestly and logically considered you will come to no other conclusion than that he is unique.

Thankfully you have not disproved that.
What you are yet to do is to give the reasonable response to that conclusion.

If you Muslims have no problem with these attributes, like you said, how come you don’t accord him the reverence he deserves for having God work those unsurpassed things through him which literally make him STAND OUT head and shoulders above other prophets? How come?

Empiree:
[quote author=plainbibletruth post=32007205][size=7pt][/size]
My goal is simple –
Mine is simplest.

to open your eyes to see that from your Quran if the facts of the virgin pregnancy and birth, the miracles and the ascension of Jesus Christ in one person are clearly, honestly and logically considered you will come to no other conclusion than that he is unique.
You just repeating yourself. You are not saying anything new. That's why I said earlier that you tried to do me "wayo". I dont need you to tell me what Qur'an says. As a matter of fact you dug a hole for yourself. Since you made those claims/evidences from Qur'an, you should then believe in Quran. Simple isn't?

What you are yet to do is to give the reasonable response to that conclusion.
Honestly, you just repeating yourself and I wont respond to you after this if you fail to grab it. Your logical deduction have no proof. Now I will try to keep it very simple as possible.

You provided those unique evidences from Qur'an. And you said because Jesus had those "3 combined unparalleled/unique attributes", therefore he must be more than just prophet. And i gave you Qur'anic evidence that he was simply a prophet, servant, messanger. Very simple and supported with evidences

Jesus said: He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet. (19:30, Yusif Ali)


"O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah,..." (4:171, Yusif Ali)


"Christ the son of Mary was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him....." (5:75, Yusif Ali)

Now, your claim that:

If you Muslims have no problem with these attributes, like you said, how come you don’t accord him the reverence he deserves
Qur'an, Islam and Muslims already accorded him respect he deserved. Anytime his name is mentioned, we say PEACE BE UPON HIM. Very simple. Qur'an says with respect to honoring Jesus(pbuh). Qur'an 3:45


"(And Mentioned) when Angels said; "Oh Mary, Allah give you good news of a word from Him. whose name will be messaiah, Jesus, the son of Mary HELD HONOR IN THIS WORLD AND LIFEAFTER and among those who are brought near (to Allah)"

for having God work those unsurpassed things through him which literally make him STAND OUT head and shoulders above other prophets? How come?
You can't just talk. You have to bring up evidence.

First all, Quran prohibit making distinction between God's prophets.

Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him." 3:84

Secondly, it's said that there are 144,000 prophets and messangers sent by God. Of all these, only 25 most powerful are mentioned in the Quran. And from the 25 there are "special five" called Ulul'azm Anbiya' (Arch-Prophets) singled out to be extremely powerful with strong will and determination.

He has ordained for you of religion what He enjoined upon Noah and that which We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], and what We enjoined upon Abraham and Moses and Jesus - to establish the religion and not be divided therein. Difficult for those who associate others with Allah is that to which you invite them. Allah chooses for Himself whom He wills and guides to Himself whoever turns back [to Him].(Qur'an 42:13)

See the last bold part (green) clearly describes you. That's exactly the reason you dont understand. Read further...

"And [mention, O Muhammad], when We took from the prophets their covenant and from you and from Noah and Abraham and Moses and Jesus, the son of Mary; and We took from them a solemn covenant."

^This Ayah begins with the last Prophet, as a token of respect, may the blessings of Allah be upon him, then the names of the other Prophets are given in order, may the blessings of Allah be upon them. Ibn `Abbas said: "The strong covenant is Al-`Ahd (the covenant).

So there is no evidence from Qur'an to suggest that Jesus was more than a prophet. You can't just tell me to accept your wack logical deduction without evidence to back it up.

Now here is my logical question which i asked you before. Show me evidence that Jesus said he is more than a prophet, servant and messanger of God?. Simple, isn't?. Your "wayo" that Jesus has combined attributes make him God is your personal theory.Answer that question @boldblue.


Sidenote: You may need to read Michael Hart's Top 100 Most Influential Persons In History

He rated:

Moses #4
Jesus #3
Apostle Paul #2
Muhammad#1

Michael Hart himself is a christian born in NYC. He was asked by Christian scholars why he rated Paul above Jesus?. He replied that Jesus didnt write any book, he didn't do lots of work, he didnt create Christianity. He said Paul created Christianity in his name to earn reputation. Therefore, Jesus did not deserve to earn second position according to him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_100:_A_Ranking_of_the_Most_Influential_Persons_in_History

http://www.islamicbulletin.org/free_downloads/new_muslim/100_most_influential.pdf

plainbibletruth:
If you clearly, honestly and logically consider the claims I made about Jesus’ uniqueness from the Quran you will not accuse me of any misrepresentation.

However, if you refuse to be rational then I guess there is nothing anyone can do about that.

We have not even gone into areas in the Quran where Jesus is said to have a more unique place in this world and the other world which you quoted yourself,
"(And Mentioned) when Angels said; "Oh Mary, Allah give you good news of a word from Him. whose name will be messaiah, Jesus, the son of Mary HELD HONOR IN THIS WORLD AND LIFEAFTER and among those who are brought near (to Allah)"
and you are already stuck!

You claim the Quran prohibits making distinction between God’s prophets. But in theory and/or practice is this really so?
You yourself stated that there are classes – ’25 most powerful’, ‘special five’ Arch-prophets that are ‘extremely powerful’ and you claim there is no ‘class’. Come on, Empiree!
Let me ask you this: will Muslims kill anyone for making a cartoon of Jesus like they do for that of Mohammed?
I need your honest and sincere answer.

Did Jesus himself say he had virgin pregnancy and birth and the other attributes or they were recorded in the Quran and you simply accepted it as such?
Why now put the onus on me to show you where Jesus said this or said that?
Must Jesus say it himself before you believe the facts recorded in your Quran?
What I have stated is found in the Quran.

You can't just talk. You have to bring up evidence.
Now here is my logical question which i asked you before. Show me evidence that Jesus said he is more than a prophet, servant and messanger of God?. Simple, isn't?. Your "wayo" that Jesus has combined attributes make him God is your personal theory.Answer that question @boldblue.
I already brought up the evidence – the record shows that no other prophet in the Quran had these 3 unique attributes, put together in one person, which Jesus had.
Do you dispute that?
Or is it a question of struggling with giving a sensible response to that conclusion?

Let’s put it this way: from the Quran it can be seen that Jesus is a prophet who had those distinctively unique attributes that NO OTHER PROPHET OF ISLAM has.
Am I right or wrong?

facheux:
Can you explain the trinity for us in laymen terms

Empiree:
It's obvious you can not answer my question. I am not going back n fourth on this anymore. Qur'an position is very clear and straight forward. I asked you to prove to me where Jesus said because he has those 3 attributes make him Lord and Savior?. You can not answer. Instead you said I should not expect him to say that. So if that is the case, it means it's your theory to claim Jesus is more than prophet not Jesus. So what is it to talk about?. You are only interested in doing me "wayo" aka fraud. That's not gonna work with empire.

To answer your question on whether muslim can kill if Jesus cartoon is drawn, I know you still trying to play me same WAYO. The answer to this effect is simple one. Any learned muslim would not kill for prophet Muhammad's cartoon. Those we see on tv only did what did for their own selfish interest. Quran position is clear when it comes to such silly things. It says to turn away from those who mock religion, prophets, God etc. And yes, we are not happy with nonsense pictures attributed to Jesus (pbuh) by christians and atheists. That's why we dont draw pictures of any prophet of God regardless of their status. It's blasphemy to do that. And you christians have done that to Jesus that you claim you love so much.

As for discriminating or making difference between any prophets or messangers of God, what that means is to believe in some and reject some. Clearly you dont believe in Qur'an, you dont believe in prophet Muhammad(pbuh) and you want to tell me who Jesus was?. But we muslims believe in all prophets and messangers. Yes, they are graded by their status as in their mission. Some prophets were sent to their family, some to their community, some to entire nation(a country). Some sent to tribe(s). Jesus was sent only to Israelite. This means all prophets before Muhammad were not given universal message except for WORSHIP OF ONE GOD.

Prophet muhammad was sent to the whole world (mankind, Jinn, living and non-living things). Definitely their ranks are different from that percepective. That's not distinction Quran is alking about.

Distinction Qur'an is talking about is to believe in some prophets and reject others which is what you do. You do not believe in Muhammad(peace be upon him)

As for Jesus being honored in this world and lifeafter, the same applies to all prophets and messangers. Qur'an blessed them all in surat As-Saffat (37:181). And many other places througout Qur'an.

malvisguy212:
you quote this quranic verse to proved your point that Jesus is just a ordinary man;
Christ the son of Mary was no more
than a messenger; many were the
messengers that PASSED AWAY before
him....." (5:75, Yusif Ali)
If Jesus is an ordinary Man, then He died, if Jesus did not die, then explained to me How an ordinary man who is a prophet ,Allah would not allow the Jews to killed him, but his favourite prophet(muhammed) died in the hand of a Jewish woman?

You said, muslims already give Jesus the respect by adding "peace be upon him" on his name. Why will I invoke the peace of God on someone who is nearer to God? between heaven and earth,where is more peaceful? Comperd with what Jesus said here;

John 14:27
27 Peace I leave with you, MY PEACE I
give to you; NOT as the world gives do I
give to you. Let not your heart be
troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Jesus should be the one intercede on our behalf for peace.

You quote this verse;
Qur'an 3:45
"(And Mentioned) when Angels said; "Oh
Mary, Allah give you good news of a word
from Him. whose name will be messaiah,
Jesus, the son of Mary HELD HONOR IN
THIS WORLD AND LIFEAFTER and among
those who are brought near (to Allah)"

Let me ask you this question.
What is the purpose of the virgin birth? Why did Jesus have to be born of a virgin? Quranic verse pleasure. If you open your mind and answer this question, you will find out that the writer of the quran don't want you to know something OR he is very very confused

You ask this question;
Show me evidence
that Jesus said he is more than a
prophet, servant and messanger of
God?.

John 17:3
And now, Father, glorify me in your
presence with the GLORY I HAD with YOU
before the world began.

Can a prophet shere the same glory with God?Jesus has two Nature, God and fully human.Our Lord prayed as a man, and as the Mediator of his people; yet he spoke with majesty and authority, as one with and equal to the Father.

malvisguy212:
a gown up man cannot answer the question of a kid? Quran told you to invoked peace on prophets without given you reason?

You cannot state the reason why of the virgin birth.

Let me ask the question know muslims have been able to answer once again;

Both the Qur’an and the Bible tell us very clearly that Jesus had no human father. We must therefore ask ourselves this vital question, “Since Jesus is addressed as a ‘son’ by the angel Gabriel both in the Qur’an (Surah 19:19) and in the Bible (Luke 1:35), whose son is he?” Is it Mary’s? In Surah 19:19, the angel Gabriel said to Mary: “I am only a
messenger of thy Lord, to announce to
thee the GIFT of a holy son .” Here,
Gabriel refers to a son who was to be
given as a “GiFT” by God to Mary. Since
the Qur’an makes it very clear that the
son is a gift from God, it shows that Mary was only the recipient of that gift. She is not the source of that gift but God. The gift belongs to God. The gift was a son.
Therefore, the son belongs to God
which means the son was His or His
son. In other words, God’s son. This
testifies to the Gospel truth that Jesus is
the Son of God.

Scholar8200:
The Bible clearly says the Word was God and that the Word became flesh and being found in fashion as a man, He made Himself of no reputation and became a Servant. Hence all those descriptions of human body etc are in order!

All this was after the Word became flesh!
That was because the Word has become flesh!

For the same reason! Just when He said none is good but God alone, He wasnt implying that He was sinful but Yes, the Word had become flesh!

I will look out for the First Person Pronoun - I.

Now did Mohammed mean he will open the gates of paradise to the person? But Jesus said He will send the Spirit and that the Spirit will come In HIS NAME.

Now, do you mean Mohammed was referring to himself doing it when this was said:

Surah Al Hijr Chapter 15 verse 29

“When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him.” [Al-Qur’an 15:29]

But Jesus was referring to Himself in accordance with the prophecy of John the baptist that," He shall baptize with the Holy Ghost"

There is a difference!

Now be sincere, was Muhammed saying he will go to prepare that place for those category of people? When report had it that he said (i stand to be corrected) that he could not tell where he was going after death(quote the correct statement in case that report is not right)!

Are all true believers? Even Jesus withdrew from some that appeared to believe on Him because He knew they were not wholehearted! So divisions etc does not nullify the Word!

Who said so?

And both are Perfect in One:
that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee,
John 17:21a

To know Who Jesus was read the NT? Not the views of men. Yes Jesus approved of the NT! Both the Gospels and the Epistles!

That's not God! Who do you think he is?

The presence of the counterfeit (and there are many) shows there IS an Authentic! The basis of test is the Word! The early Church is an example! Going through Acts you will find a number of times that they all acted with ONE ACCORD, this Unity still exists not necessarily within a denomination but among true believers scattered all over the World!

No one claims the Divinity of Christ based on the Anointing of the Spirit! I never said so! I know very well that there were many that were anointed and strengthened by the Spirit in the OT!

"Verily, those who say:, "Our Lord is Allah", and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them (from time to time): "Fear ye not!", "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), the which ye were promised!" (41:30)


What does the highlighted mean?

Refer to the manner of speaking, was Mohammed the We highlighted? If no, then he is not the I in that other Sura you quoted!

Tafsir(commentary) of this verse says these are 5 most powerful prophets and messangers of Allah. Now if Jesus is God because John(p) said his greater than him, then you may want to consider Muhammad to God since he too has authority to choose who goes to paradise.

John said Jesus was before him meaning Jesus had been before he, John, was born! And as regards the highlighted, where does Mohammed make his choices?

After the Word became flesh,He totally humbled Himself and assumed the reputation of a Servant so expecting Him to say I am God is not something you will find.

Not every one that makes a claim is genuine! We test claims and doctrines by the Whole Word.

That one you are alluding to is from the refuted 'gospel of Barnabas'. In the real Gospels, Jesus commended Peter and even told him that the revelation Peter had of Him being the Christ, the Son of God was from the Father!

Empire.e:

I leave you with this verse again


"O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: "Three (trinity)!" Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." Sura 004:171

Scholar8200:
Were these not the same people Muslims were asked to get clarification from being accused of exceeding limits? How do we reconcile this? And if the Quran was completed between 609-632, it means the Trinity was not a 17th century addition after all but had been there all along!

Empiree:
So it is actually more than 3 gods. It is now 3+12 disciples = 15 (at the minimum) Dont let Dr. Zakir Naik , tola9ja, rilwayne001 hear about this. You would be laughed at



What a blasphemy!

promisechuks:
I think I can politely help you with the explanation.

Trinity; God the father, God the son, God the holyspirit. These 3 things equally share the same attribute, both in relevance, authority- everything! They are dependent on each other. You can't separate one from the other because they are ONE.

These 3 things in trinity are CONCEPTS.
They are NOT different personalities but one person operating in three forms(operating in 3 offices- using office for better understanding)

It is just like Obama being the president of America, President of world human right association and president of WHO, all at the same time.

Bear in mind; God literally means "an OFFICE of the self existing one", no matter the religion, that's what God is generally referred to as.

But by intimate NAME, the God of Abraham(which the christians worship), isaac and Jacob which is seen as the only true God is YAWEEH or JEHOVA(God the father)

However, "YAWEEH"is the name used when referring to God In his infinite form(God the father).

"JESUS" seen as "God the son", is the name used in referring to God in flesh, who in a humble manner, came into this world was born sinless, dwelled among men in the likeness of men , healed their diseases and sicknesses, forgave them their sins and gave up his life(in a human form) for their own redemption( as was prophesied by prophet isaiah 860yrs before the birth of Jesus), so that they will be free from the nature of sin, and at the third day after giving up his life for the redemption of mankind, he resurrected from the dead and that proved him LORD OF LORDS and KING OF KINGS (John 1:1-5).


"Holyspirit"(God the holy spirit) in referring to the spirit of God. It was the spirit that made jesus live as the son of God. And that was the spirit Jesus promise us before ascension. It was called the spirit of God.


I have to stop here for now. If you understand this few explanation, tell me so I can continue. Or you can ask questions

promisechuks:
I think I can politely help you with the explanation.

Trinity; God the father, God the son, God the holyspirit. These 3 things equally share the same attribute, both in relevance, authority- everything! They are dependent on each other. You can't separate one from the other because they are ONE.

These 3 things in trinity are CONCEPTS.
They are NOT different personalities but one person operating in three forms(operating in 3 offices- using office for better understanding)

It is just like Obama being the president of America, President of world human right association and president of WHO, all at the same time.

Bear in mind; God literally means "an OFFICE of the self existing one", no matter the religion, that's what God is generally referred to as.

But by intimate NAME, the God of Abraham(which the christians worship), isaac and Jacob which is seen as the only true God is YAWEEH or JEHOVA(God the father)

However, "YAWEEH"is the name used when referring to God In his infinite form(God the father).

"JESUS" seen as "God the son", is the name used in referring to God in flesh, who in a humble manner, came into this world was born sinless, dwelled among men in the likeness of men , healed their diseases and sicknesses, forgave them their sins and gave up his life(in a human form) for their own redemption( as was prophesied by prophet isaiah 860yrs before the birth of Jesus), so that they will be free from the nature of sin, and at the third day after giving up his life for the redemption of mankind, he resurrected from the dead and that proved him LORD OF LORDS and KING OF KINGS (John 1:1-5).


"Holyspirit"(God the holy spirit) in referring to the spirit of God. It was the spirit that made jesus live as the son of God. And that was the spirit Jesus promise us before ascension. It was called the spirit of God.


I have to stop here for now. If you understand this few explanation, tell me so I can continue. Or you can ask questions

Empiree:
AllNaijaBlogger:

Please, back up your arguments that
+Paul created christianity and
+ Paul's teachings are more relevant than Jesus's
Please, summarize what Paul's teachings are about since you are claiming that he created christianity.
you lied that Paul created christianity.
There is no easy was to summarize this mess creasted by Mr. Paul.

Jesus was not the founder of Christianity as we know it today. Most of the New Testament doesn't even concern the historical Jesus. The Apostle Paul and his followers define what became Christianity.

Paul never met Jesus in the flesh. Influenced by Greek Hellenism and various mystery cults he turned the man Jesus into spiritual deity.Paul (formally Saul) was a hired hit man and enforcer for the Roman appointed-controlled High Priest the traitorous Caiaphas. He was hostile to Judaism and there's no real proof he had any knowledge of it outside the Greek Septuagint.

According to Paul, Jesus' Jewish teachings are not relevant to salvation. While Jesus is regarded by Christians as the founder of the faith. Paul's role in defining Christianity can't be ignored. Roman Catholicism chose Paul over Jesus.

"Paul is regarded as the great interpreter of Jesus' mission, who explained, in a way that Jesus himself never did, how Jesus' life and death fitted into a cosmic scheme of salvation, stretching from the creation of Adam to the end of time."

The doctrines of Christianity come mostly from the teaching or influence of Paul, an alleged Pharisee? who rejected his Pharisaic Judaism.

His worship was that of a "Christ" totally unrelated to the Jewish Messiah, a nationalist (and human) figure that was supposed to free the nation from foreign (Roman) rule. PAUL, ST. (died c. A.D. 68), founder of Pauline Christianity. His name was originally Saul. He later claimed that he was a Jew of the tribe of Benjamin, from a long-established Pharisee family in Tarsus. According to Acts (though not according to Paul himself) he studied in Jerusalem under Gamaliel, the leader of the Pharisees and grandson of Hillel.

Theology of Paul from a Christian Deist

What you usually hear about Jesus today in churches and on TV is an interpretation that comes from the writings of a man named Paul who called himself an "apostle" (messenger) but was not among Jesus' "twelve" disciples who are also called "apostles."

Paul's ideas about Jesus are found in letters which he wrote to churches and which were later included in the book called the "New Testament."

Paul, whose Jewish name was Saul, lived during and after the time of Jesus but Paul never claimed to have seen or heard Jesus except in some kind of mystical "vision" after the time of Jesus. From his "vision" of Jesus, Paul became convinced that Jesus was the Jewish "messiah" ("christos" in Greek) whom Paul believed would become the ruler ("lord"wink of all humanity, not just the "kingdom of Israel."

Paul referred to Jesus by the title of "christos." The word English word "Christ" in the New Testament is a transliteration of the Greek word "christos" (meaning "anointed one"wink which, in turn, is a translation of the Hebrew word "mashiach" (messiah) which also means "anointed one." The title "mashiach" (anointed one) refers to someone who is chosen for a special purpose, such as a king.

Since the New Testament was originally written in Greek, the term "christos" is used as a title for Jesus. Jesus (the) Christ simply means Jesus "the anointed one." Eventually the followers of Jesus became known as "Christians."

What did Paul believe about Jesus, and how did Paul's ideas become dominant in Christian churches?

Although Paul considered Jesus to be God's Son, "in the form of God" (Philippians 2:6)
Paul believed that Jesus was subordinate to God "the Father." Paul wrote,(I Corinthians 8:6).

Paul began preaching that Jesus was the "messiah" (Christos) whom the Jews were expecting but he immediately ran into a problem. The Jews were not expecting their messiah to be crucified. According to the book of Acts, Paul "came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. And Paul went in, as was his custom, and for three weeks he argued with them from the (Hebrew) scriptures, explaining and proving that it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and rise from the dead, and saying, 'This Jesus, whom I proclaim to you, is the Christ" (Acts 17:1-3).

Paul called his message the "gospel of Christ" (Romans 15:19). Paul summarized his "gospel" in his letter to the Christians at Corinth, "Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast -- unless you believed in vain.

Paul's "gospel" can be summarized as follows:

(1) "Christ died for our sins" -- The penalty for sin is death but Jesus is God's divine and sinless Son who died on the cross to pay the death penalty on behalf of humankind.

(2) "He (Jesus) was raised on the third day" -- God raised Jesus from the dead on the third day and gave him authority as "lord" (ruler) over all humankind, and whoever "confesses that Jesus is lord" and "believes that God raised him from the dead" will be saved from sin and death.

Does all of this sound familiar to you? It should because Paul's theology became dominant in the Christian movement. Paul preached for about 30 years after the time of Jesus. He spread his views through his missionary journeys in many countries and he wrote letters to the young churches that he established or visited. His letters were kept and circulated among the early Christians.

Empiree:
This was copied
This was copied

Paul had very little success in convincing the Jews of Asia Minor and Greece that Jesus was the Jewish messiah so Paul turned his attention to Gentiles (non-Jews) who were attracted to Paul's idea of "eternal life" through accepting Jesus as "lord." Paul believed that Gentiles could become Christians without converting to Judaism with its requirements of circumcision and dietary laws.

In 66 AD, the Jews revolted against the Romans in an effort to liberate the kingdom of Israel. The Christians in Jerusalem saw what was happening and fled east across the Jordan river to Pella and other places.

In 70 AD, the Romans crushed the revolution by destroying Jerusalem and the Jewish temple. Throughout the years, Jerusalem had been the headquarters for the Christians who were closest to Jesus, such as Peter, James, and others. Christians in Jerusalem considered themselves within Judaism. They had serious doubts about Paul and sometimes opposed him.

After the destruction of Jerusalem, the influence of Jewish Christians began to decline. The churches in Asia Minor, Greece, Rome, and other places where Paul had spread his version of the "gospel" took over the leadership of the Christian movement. These churches were mostly in "Hellenized" areas where Greek culture and ideas had flourished since the days of Alexander the Great.

The Christian movement began to establish its identity as a religion separate from its Jewish roots. But the movement carried with it the terminology which Paul used in his interpretation of the significance of Jesus.

Between 70 AD and 100 AD, four unknown writers collected whatever could be found or remembered about the life and teachings of Jesus. These writings became the books known as Matthew, Mark, Luke and John in the New Testament. It is in the books of Matthew, Mark, and Luke that we come closest to the teachings of Jesus in his parables and discover the "gospel of Jesus" which is very different from the "gospel of Paul."