₦airaland Forum

Empiree:
Scholar8200:
GOD as we know Him!
Emp:
So God is omnipotent, omniscience, He has No beginning, No Ending. Thats very correct. How then can you explain how Jesus is God knowing fully well he has the beginning (i:e born from woman's vagina, circumcised, breastfed, grew up like you and I) and according to you, he died; which means that was his end. How does that compared to the former?. Can you reason?. Or you gonna tell me later run that it is just a mystery?

The is becoming a case of "sumu bukum umuyun fahum laa yari jiun". i:e deaf, dump and blind, they will not return to the straight Path Q 2:18

And your Bible said something similar

"Because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand." - Matthew 13:13
Sound familiar?

Sch8200:
The concept of One being with the Father from the beginning was obviously taken by Heriaclitus around 6BC (not even Philo) and defaced to reflect Gnostics' belief of there being many intermediaries between God and the material world and Gnostics further claim that Logos was the highest of all the intermediaries! This is an obvious theft of Inspiration/Intellectual material from the Hebrews by the Greeks, and prostituting same to reflect one's belief (A skill much used by Gnostics and attempted by the learner who forged the 'gospel of Barnabas' trying to steal the Gospel and weave Islam into it but he failed woefully!)
Emp:
Honestly, it is really irrelevant to me whether it was plagiarized by Philo or not. Born of contention is Jesus is NOT God. God merely breath Jesus's soul in Mary(p) and she conceived Jesus(p). Very simple and straightforward. Whats all that 'he became flesh after he came down and all that?. Does that make sense to you?. Where did Jesus make such allegations?

Sch8200
Now let's see the belief in the Father and Son as shown in the OTsadRemember that all these were written milleniums before Heriaclitus!

1. Psalm 110:1
The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
Bare in mind that David who wrote this was an Israelite who believed that,"the Lord our God is One Lord!
This is a mystery!
Emp:
Good thing you even brought OT into this. I am sure you do not believe David(p) is God?. If so reading the verse you cited, in your opinion, it is mystery because it appears there are Two Lords refernce in the verse. Bible translators did a very bad job. There are other translations of the Bible with lower case for the second person 'lord'. A similar passage can be found in Matthew 22:44

We have a case like this in Quran as well:

"And remember that Abraham was tried by his Lord with certain commands,....." {Surah Al-Baqara, 124}

^ read the verse carefully. The first person singular who is conveying this message is Allah(God). Read the way the way the sentence is constructed with the second 'person' Lord with upper letter L. Is that referring to another Creator (of Abraham)? Answer is no. There is nothing mystical about it. The Lord mentioned in this verse refers to Allah.

It is like this; when i was a boy and i would do something silly, my mommy would rebuff me and said these words:

"If you mommy is saying something you have got to listen"

Now, it was only two of us but I mommy mentions another mommy in this sentence. Is she referring to someone else? Answer that, please?

Here are other similar verses in the Quran

"Behold! his Lord said to him: "Bow (thy will to Me):" He said: "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe." (Surah Al-Baqara, 131)

Read this:

"And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, "My Lord, show me [Yourself] that I may look at You." [Allah] said, "You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me." But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, "Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers."

Many more of that in the Quran.

Now, the verse you quoted above as reference, according to you there are multiple Lords including David, if David(p) was also in spirit as Bible writers want us to believe, why is he not also God?. I hope I am making sense to you?. I really can not help you further with this. It is no mystery at all. The Bible translators and writers misused upper and lower cases a lot....inappropriately.

Once again remember that these were people whose rallying cry was:
Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is One Lord!
It is not complicated at all. You need to question Bible translators/writers. Despite them being english speakers, they did bad job.

This is Islam: "Hear O Israel, the Lord your God is One Lord!". Thats called "tawheed" in Islam i:e Oneness of God. Very clear and straightforward. Refer to analysis given above.

Sch8200:
Now we see an obvious contradiction by Philo and his ilks:

Philo&co : Logos is a thought or reason hence when God expresses the word, He says Be and it is so.

Now the same Philo: ]u]Logos is the highest of the demiurges,[/u] an intermediary between God and the material world!

Here Philo tries real hard to reconcile his jewish background and his hellenistic philosophies the result? CONFUSION!

Where exactly do they stand!? This happens and proves that the Fact of the Divine Nature was stolen and there was a battle in keeping the concept while at the same time prostituting it to suit their purposes!
Emp:
I am not relying on Philo's theory per se. I only brought up his idea to counter your claims. Philo's theory also somehow complicated actually. Indeed, Philo did make good point contrary to your claims that God can be God and man at the same time. But Philo did not consider God similar to heaven, the world, or man; his God existed neither in time nor space and had no human attributes or emotions. He argued that God has no attributes, in consequence no name, and for that reason he cannot be perceived by man. Philo's views @underlined is very similar to Islam.

Quran says God Allah is above heavens

Allah (swt) says

“He is the one who created the heavens and the earth in six days and then made istiwa (rose over) over his throne.” [EMQ Hadid: 4]


God does have Attributes that are Majestic. Philo also said he does not compare God to man or His creation. And that God cannot be perceived. This is very true. Qurand and Bible agree with this except that chritians contradict the Bible a lot.

Here is Quran:

"[He is] Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you from yourselves, mates, and among the cattle, mates; He multiplies you thereby. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing." Q 42:11


"LORD, there is no one like you! For you are great, and your name is full of power" Jeremiah 10:6

"Isaiah 46:9 — For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me." Question: How is Jesus God?. How is he like God?
Why did you guys messed up everything in the NT baffles me.

Herer again, Quran declares:


"There is no one to share His dominion, nor does He take an aide or supporter from His creatures. He is nearer to man than man's own jugular vein." Al-Qur'an 50:16

The verse ^ debunks your claim 3 in 1 theory, trashes your man-god theory and so fourth.

Sch8200:
Now then Why did John retain the Word Logos? Simple. It was known to the Hebrews that Wisdom was the One that Expressed/Revealed the Father:
Emp:
I am glad at underlined. It was John doing his thing NOT Jesus(p), NOT under Jesus supervision. And Jesus spoke Aramaic not Hebrew. Hence, still hold no water. Unless and until you can point out with 100% FACT it was Jesus made the statement in John 1:1, which does not make sense to begin with, this case is dismissed. Even Bible commentary on this passage makes no sense.

Sch8200:
Besides, the Gnostic Greeks regards matter (eg the flesh) to be intrinsically evil hence the Word being made flesh is in total contradistinction with the Philo/Grecian/Gnostic views!
Emp:
And where are you driving at here?. I support Philo on this one. You believe in the former (theory) which has no Divine basis.

This is why the same John, having these Grecio/Gnostic corrupters in mind said:

and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
1John 4:3
Emp:
Hold on. I am confused here. What are you saying?. Whats your creed of this verse?

Sch8200:
Interesting, now read and judge:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

John 1:18
So , was this also mistranslated? The Son IS the Word as Hebrews 1:2,3 confirms. Note that John did not write Hebrews and the thought here agrees with the Son revealing/expressing the Father!
Emp:
Can you see this is in conflict with other Bible verses and Quran?. And even it is in conflict with other Bible version. This verse in itself is confusion. Now read these Versions

English Standard Version
"No one has ever seen God; the only God[b], who is at the Father’s side, he has made him known.





[b]International Standard Version
"No one has ever seen God. The unique God, who is close to the Father's side, has revealed him."





GOD'S WORD® Translation
No one has ever seen God. God's only Son, the one who is closest to the Father's heart, has made him known.




Young's Literal Translation
God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare.



The versions are confusing let alone compare them with this Bible verse:

"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form," - John 5:37

Empiree:
Yes, of course but only in the sense that He (God) NOT Jesus has no beginning, no ending, not born of human, does not eat, drink, sleep, does not die, was not hanged or nailed, can not be seen by human, does not look like human or anything, has no genealogy. And the list goes on. That is mystery.

But Jesus is not because he had the beginning (was born by a woman). He died according to you( was captured, hanged or nailed on the cross), he ate, he slept, he poo poo, he has genealogy, he was seen by human and the list goes on.

See how simple that was?. That's Islam. Nothing complicated at all. Two distinctive (B)beings.

Meaning there is no part of the Quran that actually/expressedly verifies that hadith?
I'd rather ignore this because you will never understand if you dont understand identity of Jesus let alone God. No pawn intended

Sch8200:
Now is it allowed that a hadith validates another hadith? Especially when the former might not (subject to your answer to penultimate question)have been expressedly validated in the Quran?
Emp:
@underlined, yes. It is called "mutawathir" when a hadith has sound chains of narration to the prophet(p) himself, especially when the ahadith are identical and expressed or narrated by different sahaba multiple times. So it applies to the issue of 'grant'. Dajjal is also a case study.

Empire.e:
I will ask you same question asked in the book i posted. Who is God?. Who is Holy Spirit or Ghost?, Who is Jesus?. You do not need to sweat to answer this. Very simple question. Muslims can answer this question in a simple word.

Sch8200:
To deny the Divinity of the Son is to deny everything about the Work of Redemption! How then is such an one a Christian? It is a mystery revealed to an extent. But we cannot force our intellect to complete the parts not revealed in understanding. That will be heretical.
Emp:
In that case how about other Sons of God mentioned in the Bible?. Aren't they supposed to be Divine as well since they too are Sons?. Listen uncle scholar, you dont understand. What Bible meant by Son/son is metaphorical. If you said no, then, this is in conflict with ALL three (God, Holy Ghost and Jesus) you mentioned above because you said all three are God and now you said Son is also God. Who is the "Son" ?

Quran condemns this;


And say, "Praise to Allah , who has not taken a son and has had no partner in [His] dominion and has no [need of a] protector out of weakness; and glorify Him with [great] glorification." Sura 17:111



"And they say, "The Most Merciful has taken [for Himself] a son.",' preach a monstrous falsehood, at which the very heavens might crack, the earth split asunder, and the mountains crumble to dust. That they attribute to the Most Merciful a son, And it is not appropriate for the Most Merciful that He should take a son.." Sura 19:88-



"Say, [O Muhammad], {to the Christians} "If the Most Merciful had a son, then I would be the first of [his] worshippers." Surah 43:81



"And to warn those who say, " Allah has taken a son." They have no knowledge of it, nor had their fathers. Grave is the word that comes out of their mouths; they speak not except a lie." Surah 18: 4-5

Sch8200
When the Father said (referring to the Son):
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8
Isaiah also called the Son the Mighty God! Isaiah was also an Israelite who cried, Hear O Israel, the Lord thy God is One Lord!

Do I have perfect understanding thereof? No. Do I believe it? Yes, God said it!
Emp:
Good. @bolded, so why wasn't Isaiah Divine as well.....since he's also called Son with upper case 'S'?. Are you being discriminatory and cherry picking here? "son" is metaphorical?.

I asked: " Who was governing the rest of the planet at that point the flesh suffered limitations?"


You Said:

GOD of course! The Omnipotent,Omniscient and Omnipresent!
Yes Jesus even said, " The FAther that dwelleth in Me, He does the Works" and furthermore Jesus said," if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God"
John 14:10, Matthew 12:28. This underscores His Omnipresence and that this Divine attribute was unaffected when the Word became flesh!
Emp:
Confusion. Mister, it is time to transit from Christianity to Islam. Your choice

Sch8200
And was Mohammed's witness in agreement with that of Jesus' disciples! If the Criteria for the mortal men here was that they had ben with Him from the commencement of His earthly ministry, does Muhammed, another mortal, qualify on this ground?
Emp:
It was only a revelation to Muhammad(p). He was not there when Jesus was said to have foretold of him. Allah only relaid the message to him in the Quran to assure him of his messangership and prophethood

Sch8200
If the only way Jesus would be glorified was to be by writing, then the Spanish author of the failed 'gospel of barnabas' could also make similar claims on ground of his book!
Emp:
And what other way(s) do you also anticipate. Elaborate, please?.

Sch8200:
Note that this was a promise for the future!
Emp:
Yup!. At the time Jesus(p) made the prophecy, Muhammad (p) was yet to arrive. What other future do you anticipate, past or present?

Sch8200:
If this be true then Jesus was actually crucified and He died!!! Then, His resurrection is likewise true!!! Else, He is not there meaning the claim that all mankind goes there is Wrong! Otherwise, He is not ordinary Man hence though HE came as a Man, He still did not go there because He was also beyond Man! By implication, the record and account in the Bible is right ab initio!
Any objections?

But the distinctness of the Personalities has been established?!
Emp:
@underlined, to keep it simple and staright forward, since you said Jesus is god, then it means your God was killed by the very same people he created, correct?. THINK BROTHER, think.

Jesus Appears to the Disciples


Now, concerning so called death of Jesus or the alleged crucifixion, Bible disagrees with you, sir. There is no need to post Quran.

As disciples thought was dead, Jesus appeared to them as reported by Luke, (Luke 24:36-50)

36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
i:e Salaam Alaikum

37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost.


38 He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds?


39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”[u] shocked shocked shocked grin


41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, [u]“Do you have anything here to eat?”


42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish,


43 and he took it and ate it in their presence.



Anything else?

Scholar8200:
***Before He was born, He had been existing with the Father. That is why it is written, The Word was made flesh!

***For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of [size=15pt]him that sent[/size] me.
John 6:38

***[size=25pt]I[/size] came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, [size=25pt]I[/size] leave the world, and go to the Father


***42 saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.


***I believe Jesus' quoting that verse in reference to the Messiah should clear your doubts here. Being in spirit is used to refer to being under the Inspirational influence of the HOLY SPIRIT (not ANY angel)! Consider this:
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Revelations 1:10
Got it?


***As long as you believe Jesus was God's creature, we will never agree here! And why would Isaiah (a real Israelite who you just quoted write thus by Inspiration:


***For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:
and the government shall be upon his shoulder:
and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor,
The mighty God,
The everlasting Father,
The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6


***I maintain, they believed and still believe GOD is One but they also realised that His Nature is a Mystery!


Furthermore, the royal 'We' referred to by Muslims in the Quran is not used in the Bible. You find passages like this also by Isaiah:

Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. Isaiah 6:8

-Who did the Bible refer to there? The People who did not recognise His being the Messiah!

-Jesus never said this to Peter when the latter declared by Inspiration,"Thou art the Christ, The Son of the Living God"! Why? It Agrees with Scripture just like Jesus said in MAtthew 22:42-44

-The highlighted has been clarified. Besides, do you mean you agree in the intrinsically evil nature of the flesh and all material things as the Gnostics do?

-That John was actually warning against the contaminatory efforts of the Gnostics who believe the Word never became flesh because to them, the flesh is intrinsically evil! Now this further shows that John simply recovered the Facts and Understanding stolen as it were by the Gnostic Greeks!

That's why we Christians denounce some versions. Now go compare the Greek here:http://biblehub.com/interlinear/john/1-18.htm
and Aramaic here http://biblehub.com/aramaic-english-gospels/john/1.htm. The translations using Son sought to be faithful to the context; the transliterations were what they were!

Emp.
"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form," - John 5:37

Sch SPoken after the Word was made flesh!

Empiree:
Brother, for God's sake, I really want to help you here. You just keep digging hole for yourself when i read your replies. Sometimes, i just wait it out and relax myself before responding bcus I feel like you are unconsciously coalescing identity of Jesus. This get muslims tired. As you can see from op's picture signature, he's tired. When I read over your reply now, it seems like you dont really listen to yourself. I dont blame bcus you kind of humble in your responses. I want to get you to Think and REASON again using your very own replies. I also think Christians play "hide and seek" game. That is, they use "flesh" to describe Jesus where and when it is convenient for them. Maybe we need to get neutral person to give their opinion on this. I mean non-muslim, non-christian. Now pay close attention at underlined and at bolded.

Point #1: Now look at the first underlined, you said he was born. He in the sentence refers to Jesus, correct?. So Jesus was born. But earlier, remember you said God has no beginning, no ending and the Bible says nothing looks like him. But Jesus looks like us.

Point #2: Bolded part says "I came down from heaven" which could also mean he was born. We all (including empire and scholar) came down from heaven in that sense. So he came down for ministry not of his(Jesus) own accord but (read the last clause) on behalf of the One (God) who sent him(Jesus). Can you see two different personalities in this passage of the Bible?. The verse is very clear that Jesus is a messenger. I know you gonna bring about "he was in flesh". Honestly, that's a theory innovated - that has absolutely nothing significant. I am doing breakdown for you sir.

Point #3 Look at this verse of the Bible 'I' i:e Jesus came from the Father. The same 'I' appears in the second sentence I leave the world, and go to the Father. "Father in this sentence is God indicating another personality. Two different people. Which indicates that he was sent by God to Children of Israel to deliver message like other prophets and messengers before him. And then he(Jesus) went back to Him(Allah), just like other prophets. Are you getting it, sit?

Point #4: Here Jesus is called son of David. He is also called Son of God. I am sure he is also called son of other men in the Bible like Jesus son of Josef. This i have said earlier that "son" is metaphorically used in the Bible. Empire and scholar are also sons of God because we are debating intelligently and for others to learn few tings as well. A thief who reforms himself is also son of God. A good Samaritan is also son of God. Remember in primary school, when we make noise in class, our teachers used to tell us to be quiet and they would say son of God dont make noise. Son of the devil do. This brings a critical question actually. If Jesus is Son of God (whatever that means to you), how then he is also the Father at the same time?.

Point #5: You called Jesus(p) a messiah @ underlined. What is messiah by definition?. The Bible verse you quoted indicating holy spirit does not in anyway proof Jesus's Divinity. Do you not have pastor who also claim they are in spirit (when they are doing their thing)?. Does that make them Divine?

Point #6: It is not clear by my breakdown now that Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of God - (SENT) by God is God's creature?. I tried hard to break it down fo r you mister.

Point #8: All God's prophets and messengers (including Jesus) believed in One God WITHOUT partner(s). The confusion lies with translators and writers of the Bible. For as long as you believe in the Bible, you will NEVER, ever be able to correctly figure out identity of Jesus. Bible clearly differentiate him from God. In other part it mixes them up which suggest CORRUPTION, DISTORTION, OMITTION and ADDITION of the Bible. Open your eyes. We talk about different Bible writers earlier in this thread, about unknown people from unknown places at unknown places. If this doesnt awake your heart i dont know what else will.. Mystery about God is, we do not know His beginning and He does not have ending. And other non- human Attributes of His. That's it. No human incarnation with God, no trinity etc.

Point #9: I dont think this is hard though. I am glad you understand the royal We unlike your fellow Christians who stubbornly distort it essence. Now let's break this down. Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me. Isaiah 6:8


"I" represent Isaiah (or whoever the speaker was). Bolded part is God speaking (according to this verse). The last sentence "Then I said I , here I am ; send me." is the same first person speaking, Isaiah (or whoever the speaker was). This verse only needed to be properly punctuated. Thats all. Like this:

Isaiah 6:8

"Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, 'Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?'. Then said 'I, Here am I; send me'".

Anything confusing you here?. "Us" in the verse denotes God. Royal Us.

Now, Jesus is Messiah here?. What is Messiah?
To be honest with you, I dont want to attach the quote for Mat 22:42-44. Dont want to waste more time. I believe Bible or Gospel needs to be rewrote with original manuscripts

(which is unfortunately lost by 80 percent anyways). When i was reading Mat 22:42-44, the case letter for son and lord are lower cases. Also mixed with upper cases. This is clear deception and manipulation. In my opinion, if they are to ever re-write Bible, not only will they need to work on proper translation but also punctuations and cases. Your Book is very confusing. Thats why there are different doctrines in Christendom.

However, this is not by accident by the way. The reason you are all confused and having different doctrines is bcus you reject Faith(Truth). As a result of that, God sealed your heart. Read what Quran says to this effect. SUrah Maidah (5:14)


[Al-Muntakhab Translation]

"And with those who declare themselves Christians, We entered into a covenant: Never deviate from the path of righteousness and adhere faithfully to the authentic Scriptures. But they willfully neglected a part of what was imparted to them. In consequence, We stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection. Allah shall inform them of their habitual course of action relevant to their evil deeds, and punish them accordingly."

First all, nothing wrong with flesh biologically. It is God who created it. God is Good. It depends on how we use ourselves. But to declare that "flesh" is inherently evil is vile. However, maybe I should ask you if what you meant by "flesh" here is different?.

Well, if you are referring to creation of Jesus @ underlined, yes, the Creative Power of Allah "Be! and he (Jesus came into being) and it is" brought Jesus into being. In that case, Jesus became a man born of woman. So yes, in that case Gnostics are incorrect. But while you are correct that Word became flesh, using that term, to you the Word that became flesh is God which is tantamount to falsehood. Allah was not present physically with Mary. It was Angel Gabriel, through him, Allah breathed into Maryam(as) of His(Allah) spirit.

Is there a legitimate body that oversees translations of the Bible?. For instance, in Islam, almost in every Muslim country, one can not just print Quran without going through extensive scrutiny. You can go to jail if you translate and print nonsense. Why dont they have the same institution in Christianity so that every Tom, Dick and Harry dont translate and print garbage?. Another Bible is about to be published, "Kanye Gospel". Perhaps this Bible will be Hip Hop friendly like Skate, Kiddie, Gay and Women's Gospels. The list goes on.

Yes, it is always about the flesh. You use flesh when it sooths you

. Allow me to do quick case experiment. SInce you believe God, Jesus and holy Ghost are one (3-1), it means all three are not detachable, correct?. Implications are quiet profound. That means,


#when Jesus was on ministry on earth, the three of them are there all along

#he was flesh and at that moment or for those moment of years on earth, no one was custodian of heavens etc

#When Jesus was crucified (according to you), it means all three were on the cross together

#plus he was seen by people

Now, with these four implications mentioned above, clearly, they contradict John 5:37. So the idea of Jesus being God and man at the same time is nothing but innovation after Jesus.

Read this verse of Quran again.

"And with those who declare themselves Christians, We entered into a covenant: Never deviate from the path of righteousness and adhere faithfully to the authentic Scriptures. But they willfully neglected a part of what was imparted to them. In consequence, We stirred up enmity and hatred among them till the Day of Resurrection. Allah shall inform them of their habitual course of action relevant to their evil deeds, and punish them accordingly."

Covenant mentioned in the verse is the believe in and worship of One God which the verse further said you have forgotten. There is nowhere to my knowledge where Jesus acknowledged being God and flesh. This is forgery penned down by men after this mighty messenger of Allah had ascended. Enough said

Scholar8200:
The fact of the Word being made flesh for the purpose of redemption is the reason we have the Gospels! Claiming that it is an innovation or it's used for 'hide and seek' sounds very strange!

Yes, He had to put on Humanity but He had always been with the Father! David called Him My Lord; John said He was before him(already explained); Himself said He was before Abraham.

Your reaction to this suggests you might have supported those who wanted to stone Him when He said so.

Is there ANY prophet that used that statement as a metaphor? NO! Taking it literally corresponds with the other passages about Him as One Who had been with the Father!
Would you have joined the council in condemning Him when He told them they would see Him at the
Right Hand of the Father?

which other prophet made use of similar statements? Taking it literally agrees with other NT and OT passages about Him. Assuming that it is metaphorical puts it at variance with many passages of scripture!

Not when the qualifier-Only Begotten- is used! It seems you assume everything to be metaphorical! If I may ask, on what authority? What similar passages agree with that claim?

to be in the spirit means they are Inspired. That means David said what he said by Inspiration ,Psalm 110:1 Yahweh said to L'Adonis both referring to different Personalities by he that firmly believed GOD is One!

The OT and the NT says contrary. The above is your opinion. But why would God waith milleniums till 500-600 AD?

The Lord (not Isaiah)said,''Whom shall I send! He further said ''Who will go for Us''
It appears you overlooked the 'I' in that part spoken by the Lord!

The idea of royal us is not in the Bible!

This is always spoken by muslims as a way of desiring the Bible be re-written to agree with the Quran, no wonder many fell and are still falling for the sham 'gospel of Barnabas'.

The Lord preserved His Word and that is what we have today. Has any one making these claims been able to provide a manuscript that seem to agree with what you have in the Quran? NO!
What is the implication of claiming God could not preserve His Word? Do you not realise that it is a blasphemous claim?

Scholar8200:
Did Jesus read the OT books? YES HE referred to them and quoted therefrom many times!

The Gospels were His memoirs and (for want of another word) biography written after His death, resurrection and Ascension! The Epistles were Inspired letters written to instruct the Churches and/or Ministers.

Since all the writings took place after His ascension , how would He read them? But do the Gospels and Epistles agree to the OT that Christ read and refer to( even after Resurrection)? YES!!!

It's quite similar to attempting to refute the biography of a great man written after his death on the grounds that he did not read it!!!

Prove the highlighted factually! The translators were faithful to the context and an unbiased consideration of the statements and contexts vis a vis other similar passages makes the focus clear to us.

So you mean God did not preserve His Word but will accuse them of neglecting some parts (which He did not preserve) and even promise judgement and will cause hatred among His people!?! This is defamation of character!!!

is Gabriel the custodian of Allah's spirit? Did you not say that Ruh al-Qudus is the spirit that proceed from Allah? Who is greater Gabriel or the Mysterious spirit that proceeds from Allah?

God preserved His Word and the KJV agrees with the preserved manuscripts!

your opinion. The 4 Gospels capture the Christ after He was made flesh.

Now a 21st century man will disclaim a Fact that has been there for milleniums simply because he cannot grasp it! As though God dealt with none till 500-600 AD!!!

first you claim it was corrupted; next it was neglected; again you claim we have forgotten, then you were asked to seek clarifications from the people of the Book Where do you stand?!

There is no covenant but thaty ratified by Blood!

Scholar8200:
Alright on what basis was that hadith validated?

Emp:
yes. It is called "mutawathir" when a hadith has sound chains of narration to the prophet (p) himself,

By what means is the highlighted measured? Does that not mean anyone can fabricate something carefully ensuring that it meets that specification?

Empire.e:
I will ask you same question asked in the book i posted. Who is God?. Who is Holy Spirit or Ghost?, Who is Jesus?. You do not need to sweat to answer this. Very simple question. Muslims can answer this question in a simple word.

Scholar:
The Answer: GOD.

Emp:
In that case how about other Sons of God mentioned in the Bible?. Aren't they supposed to be Divine as well since they too are Sons?. Listen uncle scholar, you dont understand. What Bible meant by Son/son is metaphorical. If you said no, then, this is in conflict with ALL three (God, Holy Ghost and Jesus) you mentioned above because you said all three are God and now you said Son is also God. Who is the "Son" ?

Scholar:
None was described as being with God from the beginning! None was called only Begotten (as the Greek and Aramaic agree). There is a difference between those sons and The Son!

Where was Isaiah called son? I said Isaiah also called the SON(The Pre-Incarnated Christ) the Mighty God!

When Christianity says: God is 3 in 1 and that's the mystery of the Divine Nature. Agreed to since the time of the OT (BCE period).

And Muslims say: God's nature is clear enough but turn around to say the Spirit of God is a mystery which they cannot fully explain! what then? If you can easily set forth the Divine nature how come the Spirit proceeding from God becomes a Mystery so difficult to understand? God is not a mystery but the Spirit that proceeds from Him is


Furthermore, how does Ruh al-Qudus apply to two personalities there being no variations that help in identifying who/Who is intended?

Emp:
And what other way(s) do you also anticipate. Elaborate, please?.

Scholar:
Jesus said the Spirit will:

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
John16:14,15

Ezekiel made the prophecy in Ezekiel 36:27, of the Spirit dwelling in the believers.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

This was to be fulfilled after Christ! The Spirit could never be a man! THe audience were quite familiar with people having the Spirit upon them!

Before I answer, kindly answer my questions on purgatory and Jesus being there as was claimed!

Spoken not in arabic and has being a way of greeting long before this time!

Since you want to use the Bible, see this:

25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, [size=14pt]Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side,[/b[/size]] I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [b][b]then came Jesus[/b] , the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.
27 [/b]Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing
[/b]John 20:25-27

The print of the crucifixion nails and the lacerations of the spear in His side were there for Thomas to see! He was crucified!





He rose from the dead!

Empiree:
And which Bible version, who wrote it and did God or Jesus approve of it?. Christians believe God is omnipotent, omniscience....that He has no beginning nor ending. But reading your same Bible, if you believe Jesus is God, then there is conflicts here bcus we read in the Bible about Jesus limitations. We read his beginning and his death. So you will have to question Bible writers how they got it mixed up.



And when he became flesh, which means his power was limited. Who was then the authority of heavens and controlling angels, water and sea, birds and animal and fishes, Jinn and other unseen while the flesh was on earth?.....did he put the heaven in autopilot




You really getting complicated. This issue of Jesus being God and man at the same time is a theory borne of innovation. Since Jesus is the authority in Christianity, it only makes sense to confirm this theory from him directly. Where did he make statement like he was God that became flesh?



Meaning?. Muhammad(p) used the first person pronoun as well "I" guarantee paradise.......'






Sorry, he is not a gate-man. It is euphemism of saying "you are granted paradise" or "I grant you permission to enter paradise". Simple isnt?





You just got this wrong. Muhammad's word is not in the Quran. The verse you quoted is the word of Allah




Reference?




Are you being literalist here?. At underlined, i understand what you meant. Here is the verse

Surah 46:9

Say: “I am not the first of the Messengers; and I do not know what shall be done with me or with you. I follow only what is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner.”


Muslims have no problem with this statement at all. We have NO DOUBT that Muhammad {Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon him} and his followers will go to paradise. One of the common understanding of this verse is, a muslim who claims to follow Islam but he has bad attitude, he does not observe obligatory duties often (like skipping salat, not fasting ramadan or follow the rules, not paying zakat etc), such a person should not expect the prophet to intercede for him/her. We have to help ourselves first by obeying and observing religious duties.

Like a saying goes, "Heavens help those who help themselves". Besides, there is tafsir for this verse goes thus:



Its background is this: When the Prophet (peace be upon him) presented himself as Allah’s Messenger, the people of Makkah raised different kinds of objections against it. They said: What kind of a Messenger he is who has a family, who moves about in the streets, eats and drinks and lives a common man’s life. There is nothing special about him, which might distinguish him above the other people and therefore we may know that Allah has specially made this man His Messenger. Then they said: Had he ban appointed a Messenger by God, He would have sent an angel as an attendant with him who would have announced that he was God’s Messenger, and would have punished with a scourge every such person who had behaved insolently towards him. How strange that God should appoint a person as His Messenger and then should leave him alone to roam the streets of Makkah and suffer every kind of humiliation. If nothing else Allah should at least have created a magnificent palace and a blooming garden for His Messenger. He should not have been left to depend on his wife’s resources. Besides, these people demanded different kinds of miracles from him and asked news of the unseen. They thought that a person’s being God’s Messenger meant that he should possess supernatural powers so that mountains should move at his bidding and deserts at once turn into green fields. He should have the knowledge of the past and the future events and of everything hidden from others.

An answer to the same has been given in these sentences, and each sentence contains a world of meaning.

First, it is said: Tell them, I am not a novel Messenger. That is, my being appointed as a Messenger is not a novel event of its kind in the world so that you may have some confusion about the characteristics of a Messenger. Many Messengers have come to the world before me, and I am not any different from them. Never has a Messenger come, who did not have a family, who did not eat and drink, or who did not live a common man’s life. Never has an angel descended as an attendant with a Messenger, heralding his prophethood and carrying a whip before him. Never have gardens and palaces been created for a Messenger and never has a Messenger been spared of the hardships which I am suffering. Never has a Messenger shown a miracle by his own power, or known everything by his own knowledge. Then, how is it that you are bringing forth these strange criteria only to judge my Prophethood?

Then it is said: Tell them also, I do not know what shall befall you tomorrow nor what shall befall me. I only follow that which is revealed to me. That is, I am not a knower of the unseen so that everything of the past and present and future should be known to me, and I should have the knowledge of everything in the world. Not to speak of your future, I do not even know my own future. I only know that of which I am given knowledge by revelation. More than that I have never claimed to know, nor has there ever been a Messenger in the world, who made that claim. It is not a Messenger’s job to tell the whereabouts of the lost articles, or tell whether a pregnant woman will deliver a boy or a girl, or whether a sick patient will live or die. In conclusion, it is said: Say to them, I am no more than a plain warner. That is, I do not possess divine powers so that I may show you the wonderful miracles that you demand from me every next day. My only mission is that I should present the right way before the people, and should warn of an evil end those who do not accept it.


Ibn Kathir quotes Al Hassan Al Basri explaining the statement "Nor do I know what will be done with me or with you":

As for the Hereafter, I seek refuge in Allah and he (i.e. the Prophet) knew that he was going to paradise, but he said "I don't know what He (i.e. Allah) will do to me and to you in this life. Will I be kicked out just as the Prophets (may Allah bestow His peace and blessings upon them) before me were kicked out? Or would I be killed just as the Prophets before me were killed?"

And this is the opinion that Ibn Jareer (i.e. Tabari) took and insisted that there should not be another opinion in this matter; for there is no doubt that this is the suitable explanation that suits the Prophet (peace be upon him). This is because in regards to the Hereafter it is certain that he (i.e. the Prophet) will go to paradise along with those who followed him. And in regards to this life, he didn't know what was going to happen to him or the polytheists of Quraysh. Were they going to believe, or disbelieve and be punished and extirpated for their disbelief?


Now, dont we we similar statement of Jesus in the bible? Jesus said i can do nothing


"So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise" John 5:19


"But he will reply, 'I don't know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!' Luke 13:27

Why wont Jesus just 'forgive' them since he has power to do so according to you?


"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Mark 13:32

Why he does not know this?^


In another word, that verse of Quran is humble statement!




No no my friend. We are dealing with Christian doctrine and matter of SALVATION here. If some Christians believe Jesus is God and some believe he is not, if some Christians believe in trinity and some christian dont, if some Christians believe Jesus is son of God and some christian dont, this is clear contradiction and confusion. It means christians do not know Jesus identity but fallacies and hearsays. This is matter of salavation not to joke with. It is not a matter of moral or judgement that may be forgiven. When it comes to SALVATION, Jesus proclaimed God is One. Where did you get trinity from (3 in 1)?




Your Bible. Your Bible confuses you. At some point it portrays Jesus as a separste being from God. In another places, they are portray as same one. For instance, where they supposed to use lower case 'he' for Jesus, bible writer(s) use capital case 'He'. Same applies to 'Son' or 'son'. 'Me' or 'me' etc Then christian get confused. Bible writers really put in perpetual doubt.




And why didnt you complete the verse?. You left this out

".......that they {disciples} also may be one in us:...."

So it is actually more than 3 gods. It is now 3+12 disciples = 15 (at the minimum) Dont let Dr. Zakir Naik , tola9ja, rilwayne001 hear about this. You would be laughed at




Lol....now Jesus approved NT?. But earlier you said he did not read NT, that he aleready ascended to heaven before NT was written. I hope you aren't trying to me do me wayo.

@underlined, isnt the same Bible you all read that got you confused in the first place?. I am sure if you ask 10 christian who is Jesus, you would get different answers. This video is a hint. It is only 10 mins long. Or watch from 4mins to see confusion



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF3q5FvOKqc




Thats a question Quran says in 17:85 that we have limited knowledge of. Now if you said that's not God, why would you say Jesus is God when he was also a mere word from Allah "Be! and he was"? Got the picture?




I am not concerned about factions. I am talking about doctrines. There are factions in Islam as well. But non of them believe Muhammad is God. But you said among believers(Christians) all over the world, it is "one accord". Whats that accord?. The only thing i can think of is you all call yourselves "Christians". That's it. Your doctrines differ. How is Jesus is God and Jesus is not God as believed by Christians (Unitarian and Trinitarian) could be same road to salvation? These are clear different doctrines led by "holy ghost"




I really dont care how and what bases you use. Jesus is simply not God nor son of God period. He was a prophet, messanger SENT by God to the Children of Israel. Very simple and straightforward




This is for muslims actually. I can relate to this because i grew up experiencing this. However common translation of the verse does not want to bring about controversies. As a result of that they put in parenthesis (at the time of death). Like this:


"Verily, those who say:, "Our Lord is Allah", and, further, stand straight and steadfast, the angels descend on them(at the time of death): "Fear ye not!", "Nor grieve! but receive the Glad Tidings of the Garden (of Bliss), the which ye were promised!" (41:30)

Further intuitive interpretation of the verse indicates that a true muslim who is firm on La ilaha illah Allahu i:e there is no deities worship of worship except Allah, whose deeds in the open and secret conform with shahada and is steadfast on dhikr, the angels (of lower ranks) not Gabriel or Michael etc, descend on such muslim. You dont see them of-course but feel their presence. It's up to them if they want to speak to you. and you would hear them. If at all they want you to see them, they would appear in human form. NEVER in their true form or else, you dead. This is a sign of righteousness but still does not guarantee paradise. There are some people who are righteous in conduct all their life. But when they old and near death, their behavior become gross and evil. And they die like that. What a sad ending. May Allah protect us from that. It is probably due to overconfidence.




Here is the verse again;

Sura (33:7)

"And (remember) when We took from the Prophets their covenant, and from you (O Muhammad SAW), and from Nuh (Noah), Ibrahim (Abraham), Musa (Moses), and 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). We took from them a strong covenant"


'We' refers Allah {God}. @ underlined, which sura?




The First People to Enter Paradise:

The first of mankind to enter Paradise will be our Prophet Muhammad (saw) and the first nation to enter Paradise will be his ummah. The first member of this ummah to enter will be Abu Bakr as-Siddiq (ra).


Muslim also reported from Anas that the Messenger of Allah (saw) said: "I will come to the gates of paradise and ask for it to be opened. The gatekeeper will ask, "Who are you?" I will say, "Muhammad". The gatekeeper will say, "I was ordered not to open the gate for anyone else before you"". [Saheeh Muslim]





This is a theory that has no basis whatsoever. It is been around for too long and does not make sense. Father humbled Himself to be servant and son. And ultimately allowed himself to be nailed?. Fantastic!




So they are not good Christians for not believing Jesus is God?





Because this Gospel does not support Divinity of Jesus it is refuted? smh. At underlined, which Gospels are they?. I dont know of any 'real Gospels' among the extant ones. And "son" of God, which has been thrown around for yrs does not have weight anymore because there are other Sons of God and even daughters of God. Even "unique sons of God. All of them are in the Bible. So why is Jesus being 'son' of God definitive?.




And have you not exceeded the limits in your religion by declaring Jesus is God, Son of God, that the Father came down and humbled Himself and transformed Himself to servant and ultimately gave up His own soul on the cross by allowing his own creations to nail him on the cross?. What a blasphemy!

malvisguy212:
Scholar8200. I advice you let this guys be, you have given him simple explanation YET he keep on ignoring your points. I think he got his idea from a jehovah witness.

@Em.piree. Their was NEVER a time jesus became God, but their was a time He became man, john 1:1 say "the word WAS GOD". Notice, the verse did not say the word was a god, NO. In isaiah 6:5, isaiah say ""for mine eyes have seen the King, the LORD (JEHOVAH) of hosts."
The Apostle John referred to this same event in John 12:41, and he made it very clear that the Person whom Isaiah saw was actually Jesus Christ: "These things said Isaiah, when he saw HIS GLORY AND SPAKE OF HIM. Even muhammed do not understand the nature of God, in the quran, muhammed thought the christian doctrine of trinity include mary, he even include ezra. If muhammed do not properly understand this thing, why will he criticise it ?

If Mary can beget a son without the sexual
involvement of a husband, why cannot the
Almighty God produce a son without the
sexual association of a wife ?.

Surah 6:101: “To Him is due the primal
origin of the heavens and the earth: How
can He have a son when He hath no
consort?” (Yusuf Ali)

The above quranic. Verse say God cannot have a son without a consort, YET mary conceive without a consort.

And surprising the quran admit, God can actually have a son:

Surah 39:4: “If Allah had willed to choose a
son, He could have chosen what He would
of that which He hath created.”

malvisguy212:
Scholar8200.

@Empiree. Their was NEVER a time jesus became God, but their was a time He became man

Empiree:
Good. Jesus is NOT God, period. Correct?

malvisguy212:
Micah 5:2(NIV)
2
“But you,BETHLEHEM Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans[a] of
Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose ORIGINS ARE FROM OLD, ANCIENT TIMES .”

He was to be born in bethlehem at a particular point of time, but his ORIGINS is from ancient of days, (times). ONLY jesus fit this prophecy, He was born in bethlehem Ephrateh, secondly both the quran and bible prove, jesus is the messiah and thirdly in john 17:5 the bible say He exist BEFORE the world was.

Scholar8200:
Inasmuch as Yahweh (and all that was revealed of Him milleniums ago) is not the same as Allah, we'll remain on two parallel lines of argument.

This is further corroborated by the fact that the Quran never mentioned that Name.

Thanks for your time.

Empiree:
Allah is God for short. Allah is God of heavens and earth. No one shares in His dominion. He is The First and the Last. He is the Creator of all that exist. Different people from different background can call him any Names - so long as the Names are not contaminated.

("Invoke Allah or invoke Ar-Rahman (the Most Gracious), by whatever name you invoke Him (it is the same), for to Him belong the Best Names.) ~ Holy Qur'an

You see, your last summary shows that you stalled and you are at crossroad. It is clear that Christians have no idea who Jesus really was.

I just have to commend you for your time and effort. You gave your best shot. Thanks for your time.

Scholar8200:
God's Name is the emphasis there. We also have God, Lord mentioned in the Bible but these Unique and Exalted Name was revealed. It's absence in the Quran (that claims Bible prophets) establishes that Yahweh is not the Allah of the Quran.
You are very wrong there! I had initially started typing a reply before I decided to just round up. Jesus was, is and shall ever be the Only Begotten of the Father. (As agrees the OT and NT)

If I point to prophecies and sayings of OT people and you can say nothing to counter it factually but still hold to your beliefs, then it further proves to me that Yahweh is not Allah, Jesus Christ is not Isa, David is not (whatever he is called in arabic), Isaiah etc; hence there is no point proceeding with the discussion !

For example
Psalm 110 :1 speaks of The Lord saying to the Lord, sit .. at My right hand...

Matthew 22:42-44 Jesus confirms that place as the Father speaking concerning the Messiah

The passage there in Hebrew and Greek clearly establishes that neither of the Two were created; John reinforces this and further clarifies that the Messiah is actually the latter in Psalm 110:1 made flesh for the purpose of Redemption, but had been with the Father from the begnning,

As if this was not enough, Malvis quoted Micah 5:2

“But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Too little to be among the clans of Judah;
From you One shall come forth for Me [who is] to be Ruler in Israel,
His goings forth (appearances) are from long ago,
From [a]ancient days.”


And Jesus confirmed the highlighted when He said ,''before Abraham was, I Am''.
If with all these you hold on to your views, then I submit that the GOD we know Whose Name as revealed is Yahweh (this is not translated as God dont get it mixed up), is not Allah.

Rilwayne001:
Wouldve loved to burst this lie, but of what benefit would it be.
Abegi, carry your lie dey go.

Scholar8200:
Go ahead.

Rilwayne001:
Of what benefit would it be if not another round of futile argument?

Empiree:
And in the verse you quoted and your explanation, where does it say Jesus is God?. Thats all i want to hear. Muslims have no problem Jesus is messiah. Quran also says he is messiah.

Messiah by definition means:

1. the promised and expected deliverer of the Jewish people.

2.Jesus Christ, regarded by Christians as fulfilling this promise and expectation. John 4:25, 26.

3.(usually lowercase) any expected deliverer.

4.(usually lowercase) a zealous leader of some cause or project.


1. the promised deliverer of the Jewish nation prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.

2. a leader or savior of a particular group or cause.

Malvis, let me ask you this. It seems you are hiding your creed or it seems you do not believe Jesus is God, you do not believe in "trinity". Yes or No?

Rilwayne001:
Wouldve loved to burst this lie, but of what benefit would it be?
Abegi, carry your lie dey go.

Empiree:
Allah is God for short. Allah is God of heavens and earth. No one shares in His dominion. He is The First and the Last. He is the Creator of all that exist. Different people from different background can call him any Names - so long as the Names are not contaminated.



("Invoke Allah or invoke Ar-Rahman (the Most Gracious), by whatever name you invoke Him (it is the same), for to Him belong the Best Names.) ~ Holy Qur'an




You see, your last summary shows that you stalled and you are at crossroad. It is clear that Christians have no idea who Jesus really was. I just have to commend you for your time and effort. You gave your best shot. Thanks for your time.

malvisguy212:
give it a try. At lest for the sake of the viewer.

malvisguy212:
The following is supposed to be a prayer of
Allah taken from Ibn Hisham’s Al-Sirah Al-
Halabiyya:
ﻗﻠﺖ ﻳﺎ ﺟﺒﺮﻳﻞ ﺃﻳﺼﻠﻰ ﺭﺑﻚ ﻗﺎﻝ ﻧﻌﻢ ﻗﻠﺖ ﻭﻣﺎ ﻳﻘﻮﻝ ﻗﺎﻝ ﻳﻘﻮﻝ
ﺳﺒﻮﺡ ﻗﺪﻭﺱ ﺭﺏ ﺍﻟﻤﻼﺋﻜﺔ ﻭﺍﻟﺮﻭﺡ ﺳﺒﻘﺖ ﺭﺣﻤﺘﻰ ﻏﻀﺒﻰ
I [Muhammad] said, “O Gabriel, does your
Lord pray?” He said, “YES.” I said, “What
does he say?” “This is what he says. He
says: ‘Glory, HOLY, LORD OF ANGELS AND SPIRIT . MY MERCY overcomes my
wrath.’”

To whom did allah pray to ?

mtsheeew

Demola, see your friend

Rilwayne001:
Empiree did a great job up there, I could never have done half of what he did. Fortunately, the person i quoted is more reasonable than you.

I own nobody a futile argument.

malvisguy212:
he did NOTHING, all his explanation was not islamic, but jehovah witness. If he was a jehovah witness, I would've quote some verses for him.

And why didn't you quote it?

Rilwayne001:
Empiree did a great job up there, I could never have done half of what he did. Fortunately, the person i quoted is more reasonable than you.

I own nobody a futile argument.

malvisguy212:
In zachariah 12. Verse one it was GOD speaking, and here what verse 10 say:
Zechariah 12:10
10 “And I will pour out on the house of David
and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of
grace and supplication. THEY WILL LOOK ON [b] ME,
THE ONE THEY HAVE PIERCED , and they will mourn
for him as one mourns for an only child, and
grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a
firstborn son.
see John 19:37 and Rev. 1:7.

Rilwayne001:
mtsheeew

Demola, see your friend

malvisguy212:
you see the point, if empiree know what he is talking about, he will surly address the bible passage I quote, but he know not what he was doing.. If empiree really know what he is talking about, he would've address this verses, but he ignore it. Even my first post, I provide another verse, he ignore all. That is why I advice scholar to ignore him.