₦airaland Forum

MrPresident1:
Ignorance

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

MrPresident1:
How do you teach your children fairness, judgment and justice when you are not an example to them? THIS IS HYPOCRISY and your children will see through your duplicity! You will raise monsters!

Jesus, what is the meaning of this

OLAADEGBU:
I don't blame you guys since most of you are kids. So if as a parent you make rules for your children to be back at home at a set time and to be in bed at a particular time are you now saying that you as a parent should abide by these rules too?

KingEbukasBlog:
Let me break it down .

Parents and kids

Authoritarians can give their kids strict laws which they must adhere to .

"No one leaves the house by 8 "

So if the parents should leave the house by 8 then they are not obedient ? Or recalcitrant .

Understand that God is an embodiment of moral good - he gives the laws and is not subject to the laws . His acts are justified

So I ask , is a parent wrong when he leaves his own house by 8 ?

cc : Kay17 , PastorAIO

OLAADEGBU:
I don't blame you guys since most of you are kids. So if as a parent you make rules for your children to be back at home at a set time and to be in bed at a particular time are you now saying that you as a parent should abide by these rules too?

KingEbukasBlog:
I've always maintained that God is an embodiment of moral good and is not subject to his own laws . If we study the bible closely , it appears that God "disobeys" His own laws . The argument has been God makes laws for us, but seems to disobey those laws Himself. If this is true, so it is argued, God demands more of us than He does of Himself. Let’s explore this argument to test its validity.

Basic Elements of Law


1. Authority.

Law, by its very nature, requires a few basic elements. First, there must be an established authority to make the law. In the case of federal law, the United States consists of branches of duly elected representatives of the people who pass and enforce laws. When it comes to natural law, there are no written ordinances, but the authority that established the principles that govern nature (i.e. God) put them in place by virtue of the fact that He created nature and so has the right to order it as He pleases (cf. Jer. 33:25). Divine Law that is given by revelation is higher than any human law. It is not set by man although many laws of man derive their authority from divine law—and thus from God Himself. Just as God made the elements of the natural world with the laws that govern them, God made man as a spiritual being and He alone holds the ultimate authority to regulate his behavior (Ps. 119:105).

2. Rules.

A second element common to all law is some type of rules or regulations. All laws mandate certain things that must operate a certain way. A system without rules is said to be lawless. Any system that is governed by law operates within set rules and guidelines. It could be a speed limit. The law mandates “70 miles per hour” as the maximum speed at which a vehicle can travel on a certain road. It could be behavior. It is a crime to steal. Law BooksThe nature of the rules depends upon the nature of the thing regulated. In some cases the authority that enforces the rule is understood to stand outside of the rule. The highway patrolman who exceeds 70 miles per hour is not guilty if he does this to catch a driver who is speeding. The policeman that confiscates stolen property is not a thief. Part of their authority exempts them from some measure of accountability to the very laws they must enforce.

3. Jurisdiction.

A third element of all law is jurisdiction. For law to have meaning there must be some realm over which a given law has dominion. The ancient laws of the Hittite empire may be curious relics of antiquity but they no longer hold any power because there is no longer a Hittite empire. The realm and the region over which these laws once held power no longer exists. In regional governments the issue of jurisdiction is paramount. The authority of one state cannot enforce its laws on the citizens of another because it does not have jurisdiction. By the same token, if I violate a practice that is considered criminal in another jurisdiction, but is permitted within the county, state, or country where I live I am not guilty. A good example of this is the burka worn by Muslim women. A woman in the United States is not a criminal if she refuses to wear a burka even though it is required by law in countries such as Saudi Arabia.

4. Subjects.

Finally, in a very similar way, all law must involve subjects—that is, those who are under obligation to that law. We as Nigerians are obligated to obey the laws of our nation because we are properly subjects of the government which holds authority over us, and thus subject to its laws.


God’s Relationship to His Own Laws

1. Laws of Nature.

As we all know God is the authority who established these laws. There are set rules that define these laws. Laws of gravity demand that a rock falls to the ground—it doesn’t float up into the sky. Is God within the jurisdiction of natural law? A key difference between the picture of the God of the Bible and the concepts of pagan false religions is what is called transcendence. Greek GodsThe God of the Bible exists outside of the natural realm that He created. In other words, while Zeus, or Anubis, or Odin were themselves subject to certain laws of nature, the God of the Bible stands outside of the jurisdiction of natural laws. He is the “unmoved Mover.” He is the First Cause of all things! That means He can make an ax-head float (2 Kings 6:5-6). He can make time stand still (Josh. 10:12-13). He can make the shadow of the sundial go backwards (2 Kings 20:10-11). He is not under the jurisdiction of natural law, but very atom within this present universe, together with every soul made in His image is. They are subjects of the natural laws that God established over His creation. Because God transcends the natural universe, He is not a subject of His own creation, and is therefore not subject to the laws that govern it.

2. Moral or Religious Law.

What about moral or religious laws? There is an interesting example that concerns the Sabbath commandment. The rules required that no ordinary work was to be done on the seventh day (Exod. 20:10). This was a law that was not given until the Law of Moses was revealed (Neh. 9:14). It was a law that was not restated under the Law of Christ (Col. 2:16). That means that those who worked on the seventh day before the Law of Moses, as well as those who now live under Christ, and even those who were not a part of the Mosaic covenant during the time of the Israelite commonwealth were outside of its jurisdiction and were not, therefore, subject to its regulation. What about God? This law was drawn from what was said about God’s creation (Exod. 20:11). The present universe was made in six days, but Scripture tells us that after this was done, God “rested on the seventh day from all the work which He had done” (Gen. 2:2). Even before this was given as a law to the Israelites, God is said to have “blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it” (Gen. 2:3). The Hebrew writer, in one sense speaks of God’s works being “finished from the foundation of the world” (Heb. 4:3-4), but Jesus, when criticized for healing on the Sabbath said, “My Father has been working until now, and I have being working” (John 5:16-17). Did God violate His own Sabbath law? No. He stood outside of its jurisdiction and like those before and after the Law of Moses, He was not subject to its regulation.


3. Genocide.

This may seem reasonable when we are talking about things like the Sabbath law, but what is most frequently criticized is God’s treatment of His creation. That is, He commands us not to murder, but then He has commanded the extermination of the Canaanites, and Amalekites. Or, He commands us not to harm one another but He promises to punish the wicked throughout all eternity. Is He breaking His own laws in these examples? What are the basic elements of law in these examples? God is, once again, the established authority and He has set the rules that govern appropriate behavior. Yet, has God defined all taking of life as wrong? No! It is true that man is not to avenge himself (Rom. 12:19), and God condemns murder (Exod. 20:13), but He grants to the civil authority the right to punish even to the point of death those guilty of certain laws (Rom. 13:4). Is the executioner a murderer? No. Like the policeman who speeds to catch someone speeding, the executioner in his authority to carry out punishment is (to a measure) exempt from accountability to the law he is enforcing (cf. Num. 35:27). God on some specific occasions commanded Israel (in essence) to act as His executioner (Deut. 7:1-5; 25:17-19; 1 Sam. 15:1-5). The Canaanites and Amalekites were among some of the most wicked people that history has every known (Deut. 9:4; Ps. 106:34-37). God bore with their wickedness for a time in order to give them time to repent (cf. Gen. 15:16). When the time came, He used Israel as the vehicle by which He ended their ability to do any more wickedness. Did He violate His own law? No. First, because He was never under the jurisdiction of this law, nor a subject to obey it, but also because the people whom He used to carry out His punishment were not violating any divine law themselves. They were carrying out lawful punishment—in this case in the form of warfare.

4. Eternal Punishment.

What about eternal punishment? The issue of jurisdiction is applicable to this question as well. God is not under the jurisdiction of the laws He has set for His creation. When Judgment Day comes the nature of the present jurisdiction will be changed. What rules will govern the age to come? The jurisdiction of the realm of the saved will not be the same as the jurisdiction of the realm of the condemned. For example, to some measure, in that age the present laws of nature will be changed. In the jurisdiction of the saved there will be no more death, nor sorrow, nor pain because for them “the former things have passed away” (Rev. 21:4). On the other hand, some of these things will exist for the lost—“the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” (Rev. 14:11). Is it cruel for God to punish the wicked eternally? Let’s consider this from another angle. If I create something—a piece of pottery, a bird house, a painting, or a machine—what rights do I have over that thing I have created? Am I cruel to the pottery if I reshape it into another vessel? (cf. Jer. 18:5-6). Have I sinned against the bird house if I decide to use it for something else? If the machine turns out to be dangerous, am I a monster if I make certain it is kept away from ever causing any harm to anyone ever again? No.

In our creation it is God that formed the molecules and synaptic responses that form our physical bodies (Ps. 139:13-16). We are His creation—He can do with us as He pleases. God asked Judah, “can I not do to you as this potter?” (Jer. 18:6). Above all other creatures in this universe, He has blessed us by placing within us a spirit that is said to be in His image (Gen. 1:26-27)—we are from this point onward eternal creatures (Eccl. 3:11). That is a blessing! But it is a blessing that demands responsibility. The nature and demands of God are such that all creatures that bear His likeness must conform to His law. For those who fail in this (which is to say all who are morally accountable in age and ability) He has made provision for this failure by the atonement of Christ. What is God to do with those of His creation whom He has made eternal who remain in rebellion to His authority and refuse His regulation? Since He is not a subject of His own law, and therefore not under the jurisdiction of His own authority we cannot even compare any action He takes to punish wrong with committing wrong—remember the executioner is not a murderer. Confiscation is not theft. Those who reject the gospel of Christ establish themselves as a type of eternally dangerous machine that must be forever put where it can never harm the subjects of God’s kingdom ever again—that is essentially what hell is. Is this cruel on God’s part? No, it is His right as Creator and the transcendent authority over His creation.

Reference : http://focusmagazine.org/does-god-violate-his-own-laws.php

cc : winner01 , Joshthefirst , bxcode , MrPresident1, gatiano , unphilaz , Muafrika2, mykohayz Richirich713, MrsPhyno, sukkot, OLAADEGBU , vooks, UyiIredia , Scholar8200, Jeromejnr , plaetton, DeepSight , malvisguy212 Kay17 , PastorAIO , Rawblings , Ayomikun37

OLAADEGBU:
Succintly written. It is true that God is outside His creation. He is outside time, He created time and thus cannot be subject to its laws. God has no beginning since He is beyond time. God is not bound by the laws of the universe He created and He is not part of the chain of effects within time.

God does not require a cause since He has always existed, He is beyond time and is not part of the physical universe. It should be known that God is a Spirit, and that He is not a sequence of energetic reactions therefore, the laws of thermodynamics do not apply to Him.

God deserves the right to set the rules for our behaviour because He created us in His own image and we are thereby subject to Him.

plaetton:
Parents don't rules for simple amusement.
There are usually reasons that parents set rules.

Safety, discipline and family and moral cohesion.

If the parent shows careless disregard for safety in front children, displays acts of gross indiscipline in front of the children, and generally behaves immorally in front of the children, then, overtime the children would have to question value of the rules that are expected to live by.

The kids might just obey the rules simply for fear of punishment, not by virtue of the value and substance of such rules.

So, when the parents are not looking, they would do as they like, as their instincts lead them to act.

The Bible shows that this has been the case with Yahweh and his people.

Imagine how many he murdered just trying to get them to obey him.

What a great parent indeed.

OLAADEGBU:
Our parents are responsible for setting law and order in the home and they are the models we have of our heavenly Father. Mosts atheists on this forum disobeyed their parents and ended up disobeying God. If you dishonour your parents whether they are godly or not, you will end up dishonouring God.

Your denial of God is both an emotional and spiritual problem not a logical one. Your case reminds me of a disobedient child who is about to be punished by his father. The child then covers his eyes with his or her hands and then screams to his father: "You do not exist!"

None of the points you made above are logical points they are just psychological and spiritual ones.

KingEbukasBlog:
This is a blatant non sequitur ( sonofLucifer you started using this after I used it first , you are indeed a good student ) , are you PastorAIO in disguise ?

pansophist:
In law, this doctrine is known as ''Sovereign immunity''.

plaetton:
Oops!
Sorry sir.

I forgot that you are allergic to common sense.

PastorAIO:
On what do you base your confidence on all the promises of your religious doctrines?

You claim that they were given to you by a being that is not bound by any moral principles. How then can you have trust in him?

plaetton:
Lol.

God is not bound by the laws of his creation , except when walks in garden, unable to locate Abel, expressed fear about the capabilities of humans, admits to petty jealousy, screams at Moses, weeps and repents, fights with Jacob and then gets so hor.NY that he rapes a young virgin to give him a son.

Yeah.
Tell that to the birds.

paschu:
Two things to take note of (and I truly value you so much as a person to say more than this).

1. The perfect GOD (whom you know) WAS and IS being communicated to the people through imperfect and fragile human-temperaments. (YAWH is darn too secure to bother about any smear or misrepresentation he gets fromdue to his less than perfect human agents).

2. Human interpretations (yours and mine inclusive) of law and morality are too shallow to be used as benchmark or scope of analysis for the Soverign Law Giver and The Very Supreme Judge Of The Entire Universe (and all that's in it).

It's funny to think that you, I or anyone else can bring God into disrepute or judgment for any reason. So funny.

OLAADEGBU:
I don't blame you guys since most of you are kids. So if as a parent you make rules for your children to be back at home at a set time and to be in bed at a particular time are you now saying that you as a parent should abide by these rules too?

hifaif1:
So if your children disobeyed your rules, would you burn them with fire?

Fact is if there really is a God, no one knows him yet. The ones you all shout about in your churches and mosques were created by men!!! Their weaknesses are too obvious!!!

OLAADEGBU:
Correction! God will not burn His children with the fires of hell. Hell is meant for satan and his children. Are you His child yet? If not why not?

plaetton:
Lol@ sovereign law giver and very supreme judge of the entire universe.

THOR's father, Odin, comes to mind.

So, can we agree that Odin is that perfect and supreme law giver and judge of the universe ?

If no, kindly give your reasons.

KingEbukasBlog:
This is a blatant non sequitur ( son.ofLucifer you started using this after I used it first , you are indeed a good student ) , are you Pa.storAIO in disguise ?

OLAADEGBU:
I don't blame you guys since most of you are kids. So if as a parent you make rules for your children to be back at home at a set time and to be in bed at a particular time are you now saying that you as a parent should abide by these rules too?

paschu:
Plaetton, I perceive that you're an honest man. For that reason I would like to ask you a series of questions, starting with the following:

1. As an individual, when it comes to the issues relating to God, which of the following DRIVES you:

a) The need and desire to prove the existence of God.

b) The need and desire to disprove the existence of God.

OLAADEGBU:
I don't blame you guys since most of you are kids. So if as a parent you make rules for your children to be back at home at a set time and to be in bed at a particular time are you now saying that you as a parent should abide by these rules too?

OLAADEGBU:
Correction! God will not burn His children with the fires of hell. Hell is meant for satan and his children. Are you His child yet? If not why not?

PastorAIO:
On what do you base your confidence on all the promises of your religious doctrines?
You claim that they were given to you by a being that is not bound by any moral boundaries. How then can you have trust in him?

plaetton:
Neither.

I have no need to prove that the sun shines or that gravity pulls.
They are self evident...

I grew up in a society where people, not God, built a good functional , civilised society.
In that society, my neighbor's religious beliefs , what ever they are, do not affect me in any way whatsoever.

Therefore, God exists, God doesn't not exist , totally irrelevant, in the same way that the Toothfairy may or not exist.

In Nigeria, my neighbor's religious beliefs are not only a great inconvenience, but a great burden that I must involuntarily carry.

In Nigeria and in much of the middle East, the belief in God is a very very serious problem for the rest of humanity.
I have seen first hand , and continue to see the havoc that stone age religious beliefs can wreck on individuals, communities and societies.

So I come here to repudiate, mock, push back and dismantle lethal mythologies, lethal mythologies that keeps the African mind perpetually anchored in ignorance and the dark ages.

My posture is more of a reactionary than a provocateur of religious disputes.

paschu:
I'm totally relying on the assumption that you'd be 100% honest when you answer these questions. You're sure not obliged to respond truthfully though, but I may not be able to proceed if the discourse cannot be based on an honest and consistent baring of your convictions.

Talking about consistency, I really wish you can keep your respobses as crisp and direct as possible.

So if I understand you well, you are saying that neither the existence or non existence of God means anything to you. In other words neither of the two moves you.

But then, while people's belief in God in a developed soceity is not an issue with you, the same belief infuriates you when it's demonstrated in a developing clime.

If all the above is true, am I right then to say that your argument is NOT that God does not exist, rather the issue is that you do not subscribe to the way SOME Africans (and Asians) EXPRESS their belief in God?

If the above is your true position, does it not bother you that people are misinterpreting your intentions?

KingEbukasBlog:
Use your head . The enemies of God are people who are not obedient to his laws . If a Judge can put a criminal/law offender in prison what stops God from punishing Him too .

What stopped this so called enemy from obeying God in the first place

paschu:
I'm totally relying on the assumption that you'd be 100% honest when you answer these questions. You're sure not obliged to respond truthfully though, but I may not be able to proceed if the discourse cannot be based on an honest and consistent baring of your convictions.

Talking about consistency, I really wish you can keep your respobses as crisp and direct as possible.

So if I understand you well, you are saying that neither the existence or non existence of God means anything to you. In other words neither of the two moves you.

But then, while people's belief in God in a developed soceity is not an issue with you, the same belief infuriates you when it's demonstrated in a developing clime.

If all the above is true, am I right then to say that your argument is NOT that God does not exist, rather the issue is that you do not subscribe to the way SOME Africans (and Asians) EXPRESS their belief in God?

If the above is your true position, does it not bother you that people are misinterpreting your intentions?

plaetton:
Oh. I forgot to mention that I was a science major.
As such, I rely on scientific rationalism to make sense of reality and existence.

So far , I have see no reason , no iota of evidence to believe in the existence of god.
Even If I am wrong , I would still rely on rational science to come to that conclusion, not stone age mythologies.

If the belief in a God can and do make people better citizens of humanity, then sure , by all means, believe.

But, history has shown the opposite to be true.

paschu:
Okay, I think we are getting somewhere ( though I noticed the variatio in both titles of your two mentions of God).

From your above axplaination, you have not seen any evidence that's rational enough to make you believe in the existence of God, but AT THE SAME TIME, you are not yet absolutely CERTAIN (in other words, you also have not yet found enough rational evidence to prove) that God does not exist.

This brings us to the second question:

2. Was there ever a time in your life at which you absolutely believed there was God?