₦airaland Forum

PastorAIO:
Please what laws was Odin subject to? Or even Zeus?

Then also what about the law that says that those with inferior weaponry cannot prevail against those with superior weaponry in war.


And the LORD was with Judah; and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
Judges 1 : 19

PastorAIO strikes again without shame . Here is my response - July 2015

KingEbukasBlog:
hmmm

sportsmaster : youve nailed it .

Look at Judges 1 : 19 for example , it could be seen in a different way

Judges 1:19



If one does not understand and relate the verse with other verses , he/she can conclude God is not powerful enough

... and for the time Bashaa died , its just the differences between the date calenders of Judah and Israel( something like that) .

OLAADEGBU:
Correction! God will not burn His children with the fires of hell. Hell is meant for satan and his children. Are you His child yet? If not why not?

then, who created the so called hellfire Mmmmm,

Now if the God of the OP rose up and went about committing his atrocities by himself then the matter of whether or not he was above his moral laws might be relevant.

But as things stand this God is so utterly impotent and incapable of acting upon anything. Rather it is his mouthpieces and his so called children that go about committing all sorts of atrocities and depravities. And the big joke is that they then claim that it is okay for them to do so because their God is above moral laws.

I didn't see any God committing mass genocide, I only saw humans who claim to be the children of God committing mass genocide.


I didn't see any god committing any rape. I only saw humans who claim to be his children committing rape.

etc etc etc

and then some monkey has the gall to write this.

OLAADEGBU:
God's moral laws are meant for humanity but it is only by becoming children of God that you will obtain the grace to live by them.

Are not the so called children of God the ones that have perpetuated all the depravities that are been pointed out in the bible?

Like I said before:

It's not that the Parent stays up late while sending the child to bed at 8pm. It is that the parent then tells the child not to go to bed at 8 anymore but to go out and party and if possible steal and sex up some girls if they get a chance. And all the while claiming the sanctity of the 8pm bedtime.

KingEbukasBlog:
PastorAIO strikes again without shame . Here is my response - July 2015

Everytime I think that you cannot be more nonsensical you always manage to surprise me. So that your response was suitable enh?

KingEbukasBlog:
hmmm

sportsmaster : youve nailed it .

Look at Judges 1 : 19 for example , it could be seen in a different way

Judges 1:19



If one does not understand and relate the verse with other verses , he/she can conclude God is not powerful enough

... and for the time Bashaa died , its just the differences between the date calenders of Judah and Israel( something like that) .

Can you rephrase it in different words? What has bashaa got to do with Yahweh's ineffectualness before chariots of iron? What is this different way it could be seen?

hifaif1:
But I don't believe in Jesus and Satan. That makes me the son of who?

There are no middle grounds. If you are not a son then you are servant. Only children abides with God forever servants don't.

"Jesus answered them, Verily, verily I say to you, whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abides not in the house for ever: but the Son abides ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, you shall be free indeed" (John 8:34-36).

PastorAIO:
Everytime I think that you cannot be more nonsensical you always manage to surprise me. So that your response was suitable enh?

KingEbukasBlog:
hmmm

sportsmaster : youve nailed it .

Look at Judges 1 : 19 for example , it could be seen in a different way

Judges 1:19



If one does not understand and relate the verse with other verses , he/she can conclude God is not powerful enough

... and for the time Bashaa died , its just the differences between the date calenders of Judah and Israel( something like that) .

Can you rephrase it in different words? What has bashaa got to do with Yahweh's ineffectualness before chariots of iron? What is this different way it could be seen?

Lol . I forgot to remove that .

By the way this is an old argument . That particular verse of the bible have been explained so many times here . If you want me to go over it again , I will not do that

MrPresident1:
How do you teach your children fairness, judgment and justice when you are not an example to them? THIS IS HYPOCRISY and your children will see through your duplicity! You will raise monsters!

Jesus, what is the meaning of this

Hmmm, i think even the title of this thread is very misleading,
in the first place.
I have been following it right from the beginning.

Good morning sir.

How can God ask us to do what he cannot do, mmmmm.

Yet the bible made us to understand that God is Holy and righteous,

Does emekablogs knows the meaning of righteousness

Princewell2012:
then, who created the so called hellfire Mmmmm,

Hell fire was created for satan and his angels and those who choose to go with them.

PastorAIO:
Are not the so called children of God the ones that have perpetuated all the depravities that are been pointed out in the bible?

Before you climb your throne of judgment to judge God you must first attain the standard of God's absolute morality, until then get down from that throne.

PastorAIO:
Like I said before:

It's not that the Parent stays up late while sending the child to bed at 8pm. It is that the parent then tells the child not to go to bed at 8 anymore but to go out and party and if possible steal and sex up some girls if they get a chance. And all the while claiming the sanctity of the 8pm bedtime.

If that's how you show your own subjective morality to your children then you should now that only Jesus can save your neck. God will not compromise His own morality. He has an absolute, objective standard of behaviour that all people should obey. Repent and believe the gospel.

Joshthefirst:
lol. I thought you were above these kind of tactics. This is what I'll still expect from a naivé militant, not one of your eloquence and experience.

When an atheist is backed into a corner on the logical character of supreme deity he pulls the multi-religion multi-deity red herring from his dogmatic innards. It looks like they never outgrow this programmed reaction to superior logic, as even father plaetton is displaying it.

Cognitive dissonance would not allow to appreciate my point.

Perhaps you should tell why Odin is not the supreme law giver of the universe, or tell us the differences between Odin and your moral law giver.

OLAADEGBU:
Before you climb your throne of judgment to judge God you must first attain the standard of God's absolute morality, until then get down from that throne.



If that's how you show your own subjective morality to your children then you should now that only Jesus can save your neck. God will not compromise His own morality. He has an absolute, objective standard of behaviour that all people should obey. Repent and believe the gospel.

How can I judge God when I haven't seen god do anything wrong? It is the people that are raping and killing that I am judging. The so called children that claim to have moral laws that they abide by. Or to put it in your metaphor.. It is the children that are staying up late beyond 8pm that I am judging, and if they claim that it was their parents that told them to stay up late then SHAME on the parents. Maybe Jesus 'can save God's neck' for compromising himself.

plaetton:
Cognitive dissonance would not allow to appreciate my point.

Perhaps you should tell why Odin is not the supreme law giver of the universe, or tell us the differences between Odin and your moral law giver.

Mayhaps you would realize you're going off tangent.

KingEbukasBlog:
Lol . I forgot to remove that .

By the way this is an old argument . That particular verse of the bible have been explained so many times here . If you want me to go over it again , I will not do that

The age of the argument has nothing to do with it. Most things that we talk about the bible have been old arguments that people have been discussing for 2000 years and counting.

I see this as just a blatantly obvious evasive tactic. We are discussing being bound by laws. It is a known fact that stronger dominates weaker in battle. Why can your god not contravene this law, after all David killed Goliath with a slingshot?

Okay, strike that one since you're running away from answering it.

Try this one instead:

What is the relationship between Justice and Laws?

Is Justice not the exercising of Laws?

Now if your God is supposedly free from laws, why can he not exercise forgiveness of sins without the spilling of blood?

Is he bound to receiving blood sacrifices before he can forgive sins?

Joshthefirst:
Mayhaps you would realize you're going off tangent.

No. I hit the nail on the head with what my post.

You see, Intelligent people have an indirect way of getting points across to each other.

I believe Someone told you much earlier that you have difficulty understanding simple things.
That's the truth.

The person for whom my post was addressed, understood the point I was communicating.

As for daft people, it's not my fault if they have difficulty in understanding simple things.

Princewell2012:
Hmmm, i think even the title of this thread is very misleading,
in the first place.
I have been following it right from the beginning.

Good morning sir.

How can God ask us to do what he cannot do, mmmmm.

Yet the bible made us to understand that God is Holy and righteous,

Does emekablogs knows the meaning of righteousness

GBAMU!!!

Of course the very title of the thread and subsequently the OP, an attempt to excuse God of the need to act morally, is in fact a tacit admission that the God they worship is in fact immoral.
That is the big joke inside all this. If he wasn't immoral there would be no need to try to invent up all these excuses.

plaetton:
No. I hit the nail on the head with what my post.

You see, Intelligent people have an indirect way of getting points across to each other.

I believe Someone told you much earlier that you have difficulty understanding simple things.
That's the truth.

The person for whom my post was addressed, understood the point I was communicating.

As for daft people, it's not my fault if they have difficulty in understanding simple things.

I'm not going to waste my time explaining how your post was a red herring as I am not your teacher.

Its already established that you have some difficulties in communication though, so I'm not surprised.

Princewell2012:
Hmmm, i think even the title of this thread is very misleading,
in the first place.
I have been following it right from the beginning.

Good morning sir.

How can God ask us to do what he cannot do, mmmmm.

Yet the bible made us to understand that God is Holy and righteous,

Does emekablogs knows the meaning of righteousness

Manufacturer wrote in manual: Engine to be serviced every 3 months for optimum performance. Engine (thanks to Artificial Intelligence ) asks manufacturer/new owner," how can I be sure you are fit to operate me seeing you are not serviced every 3 months?"

OLAADEGBU:
Hell fire was created for satan and his angels and those who choose to go with them.

Mmmmm, are you saying that God does not have the capabilities of protecting his children from going to hellfire which was made for Satan Mmmmm, pls think again.

I bet you 90 percent of Christians don.t know who God is, yet they claimed they God.

Scholar8200:
Manufacturer wrote in manual: Engine to be serviced every 3 months for optimum performance. Engine (thanks to Artificial Intelligence ) asks manufacturer/new owner," how can I be sure you are fit to operate me seeing you are not serviced every 3 months?"

why don.t you shade more light on this analogy, atleast a lay man can understand.

Princewell2012:
Mmmmm, are you saying that God does not have the capabilities of protecting his children from going to hellfire which was made for Satan Mmmmm, pls think again.

I bet you 90 percent of Christians don.t know who God is, yet they claimed they God.

Didn't I tell you that God does not send His children to hellfire?

Get to know God. ==> www.NeedGod.com

KingEbukasBlog:
I've always maintained that God is an embodiment of moral good and is not subject to his own laws . If we study the bible closely , it appears that God "disobeys" His own laws .

Please can you give us an example of where it appears that 'God "disobeys" His own laws', yet does not actually disobey them.

KingEbukasBlog:
I've always maintained that God is an embodiment of moral good and is not subject to his own laws . If we study the bible closely , it appears that God "disobeys" His own laws . The argument has been God makes laws for us, but seems to disobey those laws Himself. If this is true, so it is argued, God demands more of us than He does of Himself. Let’s explore this argument to test its validity.

Basic Elements of Law


1. Authority.

Law, by its very nature, requires a few basic elements. First, there must be an established authority to make the law. In the case of federal law, the United States consists of branches of duly elected representatives of the people who pass and enforce laws. When it comes to natural law, there are no written ordinances, but the authority that established the principles that govern nature (i.e. God) put them in place by virtue of the fact that He created nature and so has the right to order it as He pleases (cf. Jer. 33:25). Divine Law that is given by revelation is higher than any human law. It is not set by man although many laws of man derive their authority from divine law—and thus from God Himself. Just as God made the elements of the natural world with the laws that govern them, God made man as a spiritual being and He alone holds the ultimate authority to regulate his behavior (Ps. 119:105).

2. Rules.

A second element common to all law is some type of rules or regulations. All laws mandate certain things that must operate a certain way. A system without rules is said to be lawless. Any system that is governed by law operates within set rules and guidelines. It could be a speed limit. The law mandates “70 miles per hour” as the maximum speed at which a vehicle can travel on a certain road. It could be behavior. It is a crime to steal. Law BooksThe nature of the rules depends upon the nature of the thing regulated. In some cases the authority that enforces the rule is understood to stand outside of the rule. The highway patrolman who exceeds 70 miles per hour is not guilty if he does this to catch a driver who is speeding. The policeman that confiscates stolen property is not a thief. Part of their authority exempts them from some measure of accountability to the very laws they must enforce.

3. Jurisdiction.

A third element of all law is jurisdiction. For law to have meaning there must be some realm over which a given law has dominion. The ancient laws of the Hittite empire may be curious relics of antiquity but they no longer hold any power because there is no longer a Hittite empire. The realm and the region over which these laws once held power no longer exists. In regional governments the issue of jurisdiction is paramount. The authority of one state cannot enforce its laws on the citizens of another because it does not have jurisdiction. By the same token, if I violate a practice that is considered criminal in another jurisdiction, but is permitted within the county, state, or country where I live I am not guilty. A good example of this is the burka worn by Muslim women. A woman in the United States is not a criminal if she refuses to wear a burka even though it is required by law in countries such as Saudi Arabia.

4. Subjects.

Finally, in a very similar way, all law must involve subjects—that is, those who are under obligation to that law. We as Nigerians are obligated to obey the laws of our nation because we are properly subjects of the government which holds authority over us, and thus subject to its laws.


God’s Relationship to His Own Laws

1. Laws of Nature.

As we all know God is the authority who established these laws. There are set rules that define these laws. Laws of gravity demand that a rock falls to the ground—it doesn’t float up into the sky. Is God within the jurisdiction of natural law? A key difference between the picture of the God of the Bible and the concepts of pagan false religions is what is called transcendence. Greek GodsThe God of the Bible exists outside of the natural realm that He created. In other words, while Zeus, or Anubis, or Odin were themselves subject to certain laws of nature, the God of the Bible stands outside of the jurisdiction of natural laws. He is the “unmoved Mover.” He is the First Cause of all things! That means He can make an ax-head float (2 Kings 6:5-6). He can make time stand still (Josh. 10:12-13). He can make the shadow of the sundial go backwards (2 Kings 20:10-11). He is not under the jurisdiction of natural law, but very atom within this present universe, together with every soul made in His image is. They are subjects of the natural laws that God established over His creation. Because God transcends the natural universe, He is not a subject of His own creation, and is therefore not subject to the laws that govern it.

2. Moral or Religious Law.

What about moral or religious laws? There is an interesting example that concerns the Sabbath commandment. The rules required that no ordinary work was to be done on the seventh day (Exod. 20:10). This was a law that was not given until the Law of Moses was revealed (Neh. 9:14). It was a law that was not restated under the Law of Christ (Col. 2:16). That means that those who worked on the seventh day before the Law of Moses, as well as those who now live under Christ, and even those who were not a part of the Mosaic covenant during the time of the Israelite commonwealth were outside of its jurisdiction and were not, therefore, subject to its regulation. What about God? This law was drawn from what was said about God’s creation (Exod. 20:11). The present universe was made in six days, but Scripture tells us that after this was done, God “rested on the seventh day from all the work which He had done” (Gen. 2:2). Even before this was given as a law to the Israelites, God is said to have “blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it” (Gen. 2:3). The Hebrew writer, in one sense speaks of God’s works being “finished from the foundation of the world” (Heb. 4:3-4), but Jesus, when criticized for healing on the Sabbath said, “My Father has been working until now, and I have being working” (John 5:16-17). Did God violate His own Sabbath law? No. He stood outside of its jurisdiction and like those before and after the Law of Moses, He was not subject to its regulation.


3. Genocide.

This may seem reasonable when we are talking about things like the Sabbath law, but what is most frequently criticized is God’s treatment of His creation. That is, He commands us not to murder, but then He has commanded the extermination of the Canaanites, and Amalekites. Or, He commands us not to harm one another but He promises to punish the wicked throughout all eternity. Is He breaking His own laws in these examples? What are the basic elements of law in these examples? God is, once again, the established authority and He has set the rules that govern appropriate behavior. Yet, has God defined all taking of life as wrong? No! It is true that man is not to avenge himself (Rom. 12:19), and God condemns murder (Exod. 20:13), but He grants to the civil authority the right to punish even to the point of death those guilty of certain laws (Rom. 13:4). Is the executioner a murderer? No. Like the policeman who speeds to catch someone speeding, the executioner in his authority to carry out punishment is (to a measure) exempt from accountability to the law he is enforcing (cf. Num. 35:27). God on some specific occasions commanded Israel (in essence) to act as His executioner (Deut. 7:1-5; 25:17-19; 1 Sam. 15:1-5). The Canaanites and Amalekites were among some of the most wicked people that history has every known (Deut. 9:4; Ps. 106:34-37). God bore with their wickedness for a time in order to give them time to repent (cf. Gen. 15:16). When the time came, He used Israel as the vehicle by which He ended their ability to do any more wickedness. Did He violate His own law? No. First, because He was never under the jurisdiction of this law, nor a subject to obey it, but also because the people whom He used to carry out His punishment were not violating any divine law themselves. They were carrying out lawful punishment—in this case in the form of warfare.

4. Eternal Punishment.

What about eternal punishment? The issue of jurisdiction is applicable to this question as well. God is not under the jurisdiction of the laws He has set for His creation. When Judgment Day comes the nature of the present jurisdiction will be changed. What rules will govern the age to come? The jurisdiction of the realm of the saved will not be the same as the jurisdiction of the realm of the condemned. For example, to some measure, in that age the present laws of nature will be changed. In the jurisdiction of the saved there will be no more death, nor sorrow, nor pain because for them “the former things have passed away” (Rev. 21:4). On the other hand, some of these things will exist for the lost—“the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” (Rev. 14:11). Is it cruel for God to punish the wicked eternally? Let’s consider this from another angle. If I create something—a piece of pottery, a bird house, a painting, or a machine—what rights do I have over that thing I have created? Am I cruel to the pottery if I reshape it into another vessel? (cf. Jer. 18:5-6). Have I sinned against the bird house if I decide to use it for something else? If the machine turns out to be dangerous, am I a monster if I make certain it is kept away from ever causing any harm to anyone ever again? No.

In our creation it is God that formed the molecules and synaptic responses that form our physical bodies (Ps. 139:13-16). We are His creation—He can do with us as He pleases. God asked Judah, “can I not do to you as this potter?” (Jer. 18:6). Above all other creatures in this universe, He has blessed us by placing within us a spirit that is said to be in His image (Gen. 1:26-27)—we are from this point onward eternal creatures (Eccl. 3:11). That is a blessing! But it is a blessing that demands responsibility. The nature and demands of God are such that all creatures that bear His likeness must conform to His law. For those who fail in this (which is to say all who are morally accountable in age and ability) He has made provision for this failure by the atonement of Christ. What is God to do with those of His creation whom He has made eternal who remain in rebellion to His authority and refuse His regulation? Since He is not a subject of His own law, and therefore not under the jurisdiction of His own authority we cannot even compare any action He takes to punish wrong with committing wrong—remember the executioner is not a murderer. Confiscation is not theft. Those who reject the gospel of Christ establish themselves as a type of eternally dangerous machine that must be forever put where it can never harm the subjects of God’s kingdom ever again—that is essentially what hell is. Is this cruel on God’s part? No, it is His right as Creator and the transcendent authority over His creation.

Reference : http://focusmagazine.org/does-god-violate-his-own-laws.php

cc : winner01 , Joshthefirst , bxcode , MrPresident1, gatiano , unphilaz , Muafrika2, mykohayz Richirich713, MrsPhyno, sukkot, OLAADEGBU , vooks, UyiIredia , Scholar8200, Jeromejnr , plaetton, DeepSight , malvisguy212 Kay17 , PastorAIO , Rawblings , Ayomikun37

Check this guy out. You decided to start a party and chose not to invite me, why? Tired of getting your ass whooped?

Look this article is all fun and games but also just bullshit.

Saying God isn't subject to his own laws is just a waste of time. God using his laws permits all things so saying he isn't bound by his laws is pointless since all is permissible using his laws.

My own question would be, what is your God's character? Is he good or evil? Please give your real answer to this question. Then we can move on based on your response.

PastorAIO:
Please can you give us an example of where it appears that 'God "disobeys" His own laws', yet does not actually disobey them.

Do not kill . But God virtually obliterated mankind using the flood during the days of Noah

thehomer:
Check this guy out. You decided to start a party and chose not to invite me, why? Tired of getting your ass whooped?

Look this article is all fun and games but also just bullshit.

Saying God isn't subject to his own laws is just a waste of time. God using his laws permits all things so saying he isn't bound by his laws is pointless since all is permissible using his laws.

My own question would be, what is your God's character? Is he good or evil? Please give your real answer to this question. Then we can move on based on your response.

No , I have never been outwitted in argument . You have a dogmatic way of arguing - always obdurate about your opinion and every theist who tries to oppose it is wrong . So I didn't invite you - the thought did come across my mind though .

God is an embodiment of moral good , so whatever he does is right . He is not subject to the laws he made for man .

Princewell2012:
why don.t you shade more light on this analogy, atleast a lay man can understand.

The manual was not made for the new owner/manufacturer but for the engine . God did not make the laws for himself , but for man .

PastorAIO:
Of course the very title of the thread and subsequently the OP, an attempt to excuse God of the need to act morally, is in fact a tacit admission that the God they worship is in fact immoral.
That is the big joke inside all this. If he wasn't immoral there would be no need to try to invent up all these excuses.

No , the atheists accused God of atrocities - genocide etc . It didn't make any sense , so the thread was created to clear your misconception . Your faulty thinking made you have the mistaken belief that a supreme authority who made the laws for man to follow , should obey these laws . The point is , the laws were made for man and not for God to follow .

Just like the manuals are made for devices and not for the manufacturer/user to follow .

KingEbukasBlog:
The manual was not made for the new owner/manufacturer but for the engine . God did not make the laws for himself , but for man .

Mmmmm... Are you in anyway implying that the manufacturer can break the rule of the engine even if such action may damage the engine? Just to prove that he is the one that make the engine, even at the detriment of the other road users? Hmmm, that's ok thank you.

Princewell2012:
Mmmmm... Are you in anyway implying that the manufacturer can break the rule of the engine even if such action may damage the engine? Just to prove that he is the one that make the engine, even at the detriment of the other road users? Hmmm, that's ok thank you.

You are taking this thing too far

Princewell2012:
Mmmmm... Are you in anyway implying that the manufacturer can break the rule of the engine even if such action may damage the engine? Just to prove that he is the one that make the engine, even at the detriment of the other road users? Hmmm, that's ok thank you.

The focus here is that the Manufacturer is not the subject of the manual; the engine is. However, the manual reveals that the Manufacturer is indeed an expert and that he seeks for the welfare of the engine. Interrupting or breaking the rules in the manual will be for no detrimental purpose other than that stated.

KingEbukasBlog:
Thank you !

Dalaman comes to mind . Where the heck is he by the way I hope he did not drown in a pool of beer .

Did ya miss me?

KingEbukasBlog:
No , I have never been outwitted in argument . You have a dogmatic way of arguing - always obdurate about your opinion and every theist who tries to oppose it is wrong . So I didn't invite you - the thought did come across my mind though .

Maybe the problem is that you don't know when you've lost an argument and it looks to you as dogmaticism when you're the one wrong. You need to learn how to engage with people who disagree with you though your palpable fear of me is understandable.

KingEbukasBlog:
God is an embodiment of moral good , so whatever he does is right . He is not subject to the laws he made for man .

With this, you commit a clear logical fallacy known as the [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_%28fallacy%29]fallacy of reification[/url]. The moral good is an abstract idea and you're treating it as though it were an actual person with a body no less.

If this demonstration of your error is an example of me being dogmatic, then you need to take the problem up with the English language and the ideas of logical argumentation.