₦airaland Forum

Kay17:
You mentioned God is an embodiment of Good but not all good because he is just as well. Does this imply Justice involves some form of necessary evil like communists combating reactionaries?

Now if Justice isn't a necessary evil, then it must be good and it would mean God being just, he is still good. Being good is obviously by consistently acting good. Acting good is being moral and subjecting oneself to a prevailing table of values or moral law. Which will be at variance with what the OP is saying.

Reyginus:
Your argument is not good enough. OP.

MrPresident1:
I have been reflecting on this thread, God Himself is the law because the law is the breathe that was breathed into Adam that made Adam a living being. God cannot exist outside His law because the law is His Spirit, His very essence, so God cannot be divorced from from what is inherent to Him, God trancends the law, He is the Law, and it is impossible for Him to sin.

The law was given to us to be kept by us for our own good, the whole essence of the law is to love the Lord thy God with all thine heart and soul and life and might, and to love your neighbour as thyself. God is love, He is the Law and the Law is Him, as it is written, the Word was God, and became flesh and we beheld His glory.

God is the Law.

Joshthefirst:
The bolded os spot on. But let me explain further:

When I say God is not all good, he is also justice, I mean that being Just is also a nature of his character that you must acknowledge as well.

Look at it this way, when a judge condemns and sentences a criminal, he brings calamity upon the criminal. The criminal may consider this evil, but I the end, Justice is served, and that is ultimately good.

For God, being good is not consistently acting good, being good is who he is. His very nature. That also involves bringing justice to creation, justice brought about by himself.

God is not fulfilling a code of conduct, He is the very definition of that code. He is the standard of himself. He is Law.

DeepSight:
Obviously you have a PHD in existential issues. That's why.

Joshthefirst:
The bolded os spot on. But let me explain further:

When I say God is not all good, he is also justice, I mean that being Just is also a nature of his character that you must acknowledge as well.

Look at it this way, when a judge condemns and sentences a criminal, he brings calamity upon the criminal. The criminal may consider this evil, but I the end, Justice is served, and that is ultimately good.

For God, being good is not consistently acting good, being good is who he is. His very nature. That also involves bringing justice to creation, justice brought about by himself.

God is not fulfilling a code of conduct, He is the very definition of that code. He is the standard of himself. He is Law.

thehomer:
I still don't understand what you mean.

KingEbukasBlog:
I've always maintained that God is an embodiment of moral good and is not subject to his own laws . If we study the bible closely , it appears that God "disobeys" His own laws . The argument has been God makes laws for us, but seems to disobey those laws Himself. If this is true, so it is argued, God demands more of us than He does of Himself. Let’s explore this argument to test its validity.

Basic Elements of Law


1. Authority.

Law, by its very nature, requires a few basic elements. First, there must be an established authority to make the law. In the case of federal law, the United States consists of branches of duly elected representatives of the people who pass and enforce laws. When it comes to natural law, there are no written ordinances, but the authority that established the principles that govern nature (i.e. God) put them in place by virtue of the fact that He created nature and so has the right to order it as He pleases (cf. Jer. 33:25). Divine Law that is given by revelation is higher than any human law. It is not set by man although many laws of man derive their authority from divine law—and thus from God Himself. Just as God made the elements of the natural world with the laws that govern them, God made man as a spiritual being and He alone holds the ultimate authority to regulate his behavior (Ps. 119:105).

2. Rules.

A second element common to all law is some type of rules or regulations. All laws mandate certain things that must operate a certain way. A system without rules is said to be lawless. Any system that is governed by law operates within set rules and guidelines. It could be a speed limit. The law mandates “70 miles per hour” as the maximum speed at which a vehicle can travel on a certain road. It could be behavior. It is a crime to steal. Law BooksThe nature of the rules depends upon the nature of the thing regulated. In some cases the authority that enforces the rule is understood to stand outside of the rule. The highway patrolman who exceeds 70 miles per hour is not guilty if he does this to catch a driver who is speeding. The policeman that confiscates stolen property is not a thief. Part of their authority exempts them from some measure of accountability to the very laws they must enforce.

3. Jurisdiction.

A third element of all law is jurisdiction. For law to have meaning there must be some realm over which a given law has dominion. The ancient laws of the Hittite empire may be curious relics of antiquity but they no longer hold any power because there is no longer a Hittite empire. The realm and the region over which these laws once held power no longer exists. In regional governments the issue of jurisdiction is paramount. The authority of one state cannot enforce its laws on the citizens of another because it does not have jurisdiction. By the same token, if I violate a practice that is considered criminal in another jurisdiction, but is permitted within the county, state, or country where I live I am not guilty. A good example of this is the burka worn by Muslim women. A woman in the United States is not a criminal if she refuses to wear a burka even though it is required by law in countries such as Saudi Arabia.

4. Subjects.

Finally, in a very similar way, all law must involve subjects—that is, those who are under obligation to that law. We as Nigerians are obligated to obey the laws of our nation because we are properly subjects of the government which holds authority over us, and thus subject to its laws.


God’s Relationship to His Own Laws

1. Laws of Nature.

As we all know God is the authority who established these laws. There are set rules that define these laws. Laws of gravity demand that a rock falls to the ground—it doesn’t float up into the sky. Is God within the jurisdiction of natural law? A key difference between the picture of the God of the Bible and the concepts of pagan false religions is what is called transcendence. Greek GodsThe God of the Bible exists outside of the natural realm that He created. In other words, while Zeus, or Anubis, or Odin were themselves subject to certain laws of nature, the God of the Bible stands outside of the jurisdiction of natural laws. He is the “unmoved Mover.” He is the First Cause of all things! That means He can make an ax-head float (2 Kings 6:5-6). He can make time stand still (Josh. 10:12-13). He can make the shadow of the sundial go backwards (2 Kings 20:10-11). He is not under the jurisdiction of natural law, but very atom within this present universe, together with every soul made in His image is. They are subjects of the natural laws that God established over His creation. Because God transcends the natural universe, He is not a subject of His own creation, and is therefore not subject to the laws that govern it.

2. Moral or Religious Law.

What about moral or religious laws? There is an interesting example that concerns the Sabbath commandment. The rules required that no ordinary work was to be done on the seventh day (Exod. 20:10). This was a law that was not given until the Law of Moses was revealed (Neh. 9:14). It was a law that was not restated under the Law of Christ (Col. 2:16). That means that those who worked on the seventh day before the Law of Moses, as well as those who now live under Christ, and even those who were not a part of the Mosaic covenant during the time of the Israelite commonwealth were outside of its jurisdiction and were not, therefore, subject to its regulation. What about God? This law was drawn from what was said about God’s creation (Exod. 20:11). The present universe was made in six days, but Scripture tells us that after this was done, God “rested on the seventh day from all the work which He had done” (Gen. 2:2). Even before this was given as a law to the Israelites, God is said to have “blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it” (Gen. 2:3). The Hebrew writer, in one sense speaks of God’s works being “finished from the foundation of the world” (Heb. 4:3-4), but Jesus, when criticized for healing on the Sabbath said, “My Father has been working until now, and I have being working” (John 5:16-17). Did God violate His own Sabbath law? No. He stood outside of its jurisdiction and like those before and after the Law of Moses, He was not subject to its regulation.


3. Genocide.

This may seem reasonable when we are talking about things like the Sabbath law, but what is most frequently criticized is God’s treatment of His creation. That is, He commands us not to murder, but then He has commanded the extermination of the Canaanites, and Amalekites. Or, He commands us not to harm one another but He promises to punish the wicked throughout all eternity. Is He breaking His own laws in these examples? What are the basic elements of law in these examples? God is, once again, the established authority and He has set the rules that govern appropriate behavior. Yet, has God defined all taking of life as wrong? No! It is true that man is not to avenge himself (Rom. 12:19), and God condemns murder (Exod. 20:13), but He grants to the civil authority the right to punish even to the point of death those guilty of certain laws (Rom. 13:4). Is the executioner a murderer? No. Like the policeman who speeds to catch someone speeding, the executioner in his authority to carry out punishment is (to a measure) exempt from accountability to the law he is enforcing (cf. Num. 35:27). God on some specific occasions commanded Israel (in essence) to act as His executioner (Deut. 7:1-5; 25:17-19; 1 Sam. 15:1-5). The Canaanites and Amalekites were among some of the most wicked people that history has every known (Deut. 9:4; Ps. 106:34-37). God bore with their wickedness for a time in order to give them time to repent (cf. Gen. 15:16). When the time came, He used Israel as the vehicle by which He ended their ability to do any more wickedness. Did He violate His own law? No. First, because He was never under the jurisdiction of this law, nor a subject to obey it, but also because the people whom He used to carry out His punishment were not violating any divine law themselves. They were carrying out lawful punishment—in this case in the form of warfare.

4. Eternal Punishment.

What about eternal punishment? The issue of jurisdiction is applicable to this question as well. God is not under the jurisdiction of the laws He has set for His creation. When Judgment Day comes the nature of the present jurisdiction will be changed. What rules will govern the age to come? The jurisdiction of the realm of the saved will not be the same as the jurisdiction of the realm of the condemned. For example, to some measure, in that age the present laws of nature will be changed. In the jurisdiction of the saved there will be no more death, nor sorrow, nor pain because for them “the former things have passed away” (Rev. 21:4). On the other hand, some of these things will exist for the lost—“the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever” (Rev. 14:11). Is it cruel for God to punish the wicked eternally? Let’s consider this from another angle. If I create something—a piece of pottery, a bird house, a painting, or a machine—what rights do I have over that thing I have created? Am I cruel to the pottery if I reshape it into another vessel? (cf. Jer. 18:5-6). Have I sinned against the bird house if I decide to use it for something else? If the machine turns out to be dangerous, am I a monster if I make certain it is kept away from ever causing any harm to anyone ever again? No.

In our creation it is God that formed the molecules and synaptic responses that form our physical bodies (Ps. 139:13-16). We are His creation—He can do with us as He pleases. God asked Judah, “can I not do to you as this potter?” (Jer. 18:6). Above all other creatures in this universe, He has blessed us by placing within us a spirit that is said to be in His image (Gen. 1:26-27)—we are from this point onward eternal creatures (Eccl. 3:11). That is a blessing! But it is a blessing that demands responsibility. The nature and demands of God are such that all creatures that bear His likeness must conform to His law. For those who fail in this (which is to say all who are morally accountable in age and ability) He has made provision for this failure by the atonement of Christ. What is God to do with those of His creation whom He has made eternal who remain in rebellion to His authority and refuse His regulation? Since He is not a subject of His own law, and therefore not under the jurisdiction of His own authority we cannot even compare any action He takes to punish wrong with committing wrong—remember the executioner is not a murderer. Confiscation is not theft. Those who reject the gospel of Christ establish themselves as a type of eternally dangerous machine that must be forever put where it can never harm the subjects of God’s kingdom ever again—that is essentially what hell is. Is this cruel on God’s part? No, it is His right as Creator and the transcendent authority over His creation.

Reference : http://focusmagazine.org/does-god-violate-his-own-laws.php

cc : winner01 , Joshthefirst , bxcode , MrPresident1, gatiano , unphilaz , Muafrika2, mykohayz Richirich713, MrsPhyno, sukkot, OLAADEGBU , vooks, UyiIredia , Scholar8200, Jeromejnr , plaetton, DeepSight , malvisguy212 Kay17 , PastorAIO , Rawblings , Ayomikun37

Joshthefirst:
Does this mean you agree with the point of the op but you think his argument is not good enough to pass it across, or you have fault with the tenets themselves?

Ayomikun37:
Oh man, this is grotesque... To me Abrahamism is quite simply a psychological masterpiece of self-perpetuating, self-propelling, viral operant-conditioning, brainwashing and mind control. It has succeeded precisely for these reasons, not for anything to do with goodness, reason, morality and justice or wisdom. The viral agency is the family unit: the main artery of the toxins that flow through society, the religious superhighway of mental illness... JUST IMAGINE THE OP... Try to examine the logic in it and realise there isn't any... KingEbuka's approach is that of all people who embark with the conclusion ALREADY DECIDED and who then seek to defend the conclusion using whatever it takes...

KingEbukasBlog:
I've always maintained that God is an embodiment of moral good and is not subject to his own laws .

AgentOfAllah:
You betray the temperament of a cognitively dissonant person, even to the extent of arguing that a genocide is not a genocide because it was ordered by your god. Let's be clear on one thing, a genocide is a genocide, is a genocide, is a GENOCIDE irrespective of who gives the order or the moral implications of such an order. So what you really wish to suggest is that the genocides ordered by your god are morally acceptable since your god ordered them. As a human, I find this disposition questionable and disgusting, and I think you're sick to try to justify genocide.

KingEbukasBlog:
I guess its not morally acceptable for the Nigeria Army to decimate Boko Haram . . Buhari made the order tho , but hey its genocide

PastorAIO:
Of course the very title of the thread and subsequently the OP, an attempt to excuse God of the need to act morally, is in fact a tacit admission that the God they worship is in fact immoral.
That is the big joke inside all this. If he wasn't immoral there would be no need to try to invent up all these excuses.

My technique is don’t believe anything. If you believe in something, you are automatically precluded from believing its opposite

AgentOfAllah:
What?? Are you serious?
I believe you're trying to make a point which I hope I have missed. The alternative would mean you don't know the meaning of genocide and that you're both dangerous and irredeemably depraved to compare an order to wipe out a known terrorist group (that has no qualms blowing up a market place where women and children transact) with an order to kill children and deflowered women.

Besides, the Nigerian army is a spectacularly poignant example of how a moral army should NOT behave. There is evidence that they have committed war crimes, including the extrajudicial execution of people just because they were suspected of being BH sympathisers. Notice though, that such actions are criminal before the law, and not at all praiseworthy!

winner01:
This is a great and deep write up bro. i dont get notified when mentioned lately, dunno whatsup. happy sunday bro.

AgentOfAllah:
What?? Are you serious?
I believe you're trying to make a point which I hope I have missed. The alternative would mean you don't know the meaning of genocide and that [size=25]you're both dangerous and irredeemably depraved to compare an order to wipe out a known terrorist group (that has no qualms blowing up a market place where women and children transact) with an order to kill children and deflowered women.[/size]

PastorAIO:
How can your God be 'right'? Right and wrong are moral categories and your god is above morality and not bound by it.

Ayomikun37:
Sir Ebuka, I think you need to address the point he made up there and not just dismiss it as nonsense... contrary to your claim, he made a great deal of sense there

KingEbukasBlog:
Though He is not bound by the laws he gave by the law , by our human perception his actions are always right . You can peruse through the bible and give me an instance where God did wrong .

Ayomikun37:
Not for one instant did KingEbuka ever expected to find himself declaring the actions of "God" irrational, immoral, mistaken or evil - so he never did. Of course, if KingEbuka were presented with the Quran then he would immediately set out to find as many flaws with it as possible, because, naturally, he completely rejects Mohammed as a prophet of God. A muslim would do the samething, but in reverse. Neither party cares what the truth is: they are simply intent on defending their own belief system... That's an IRRESPONSIBLE BIAS

dalaman:
Here is the bible God apologizing and repenting for his evil deeds against his people.

If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the evil that I have done unto you. Jeremiah 42:10

KingEbukasBlog:
Oh dalaman , I missed you bro ! I thought you drowned in a pool of beer or something . Anyway , you agree with me . God understands our perception of right and wrong .But not that he had done any anything evil to them or that he changed his mind concerning them -no he did not -but that he has now chosen to show mercy on them , according to his unchangeable will.

Ayomikun37:
Oh man, this is grotesque... To me Abrahamism is quite simply a psychological masterpiece of self-perpetuating, self-propelling, viral operant-conditioning, brainwashing and mind control. It has succeeded precisely for these reasons, not for anything to do with goodness, reason, morality and justice or wisdom. The viral agency is the family unit: the main artery of the toxins that flow through society, the religious superhighway of mental illness... JUST IMAGINE THE OP... Try to examine the logic in it and realise there isn't any... KingEbuka's approach is that of all people who embark with the conclusion ALREADY DECIDED and who then seek to defend the conclusion using whatever it takes...

KingEbukasBlog:
I guess its not morally acceptable for the Nigeria Army to decimate Boko Haram . . Buhari made the order tho , but hey its genocide

KingEbukasBlog:
Atheism and good morals can't be in the same sentence . We can browse through history to understand this .

dalaman:
I missed you too bro. These days I just read comments. Am tired of the endless back and forth.

According to the bible God said he repented of the evil he did to his people but according to KingEbukasBlog God didn't mean what he said according to the bible. Well done. Keep on with the word play if it makes you sleep well.

freecocoa:
Atheists are all immoral?

I giff up.

Weeping for you.

KingEbukasBlog:
Stop the circumlocution , you are not making any sense . Boko Haram are being killed in their large numbers daily the Nigerian Army as ordered by Buhari but hey its genocide . Lets call it what it is .

Wait what ? Can you provide verses of the scripture where God ordered rape ?

freecocoa:
See your life? Smh.

AgentOfAllah:
Let's be clear on one thing, a genocide is a genocide, is a genocide, is a GENOCIDE irrespective of who gives the order or the moral implications of such an order.

Genocide is the intent to systematically eliminate a cultural, ethnic, linguistic, national, racial or religious group.