Let me state that I'm not an atheist, yet.
I'm just not convinced that there is a God neither am I well versed to authoritatively proclaim that there is no God.
So here are my rebuttals to your points. @odijeks

1. God reveals Himself through nature
Nature is beautiful to say the least but do not state it is all perfect in it's design. You make God out to be all powerful and all good at the same time hence his creations are perfect and flawless but that is far from reality. There are numerous destructive aspects of your said "intelligent design" from earthquakes, to asteroids hits, drought, flood. Human being are not without our own "flaws" from conjoined babies to people missing parts or having to deal with extra unwelcomed "parts" like being born with a female reproductive organ and a penis at the same time! Some are not visible to the eyes but there are people with cognitive or neurological disorder. The diseases (including religious beliefs) that plague God's images are endless. In conclusion, If there is a God he is either all powerful but one hell of a tyrant.

2. Our Planet Earth
[img]http:///1T6UNQ1[/img]
Earth is not the only planet known to have conditions favorable to life. Exoplanets, planets outside our Solar System, have been found in the Goldilocks Zones of other stars in our galaxy. Actually there's something called the "habitable zone". It's a zone that every star has, and in it, provided water on the object (let's call it X object for the sake of comfort), the conditions (temperature from the star radiation, etc.) will be just perfect for life on X to start. Earth is only the proven because we are yet to explore.
I believe that we cannot be the only planet in the Universe that has life, because there is a billion billion galaxy in the Universe, each containing a hundred million billion stars with hundred million billion habitable zones and a gazillion objects in the habitable zone; who are we to say that none of them contain water AND life? Far from what we think, we are not the centre of the universe. The universe is not there to serve us.

3. Complexity of living organisms
Living organisms are complex but so is iphone, workings of some mathematical problems, or even the production process of a pencil. Point is, anything you don't understand is considered complex. Scientists have worked for centuries to undercover these said mysteries from how rain is formed to the actual shape of the earth to explain the biological workings of living things even microbes and we've only been a scientific society for so long.
For a society that relies on doctors, technicians, weather meteorologists, programmers; we give "God" way too much credit.. kinda like when we praise Buhari,who literally sleeps in the comfort of his bed or private jet( as the case may be), for the defeat of Boko Haram. Meanwhile, there are foot soldiers risk their lives and their efforts are barely recognised.

4. Theist Scientists
The poster proclaimed God "the best scientist"...technically, it depends on which God you are referring to. If I point out scientific flaws in the bible o ye religious fanatics would say it was a miracle and dismiss it as God bending the rule. I'll use the fact that the number of years the bible proclaims man has been in existence has been proven to be non scientific. The bible recorded that the "sun stood still" but that is not very scientific, is it? The scientists you called out are products of their religious society regardless of how radical their ideas were at the time. So yes, we are often moved to call God when we meet something do not understand and in most cases, these scientist did not mention an intelligent being in the aspects of physical world they had explanation for; they did so when they had "road blocks". If your God is responsible for what is yet to be explained by science then we better get ready to see God be unraveled by future scientists.

5. God exists because he impresses this fact in the heart of men
Basically, you said God puts knowledge in the hearts of men so he is indirectly responsible for scientific findings. Well, from what I remember in sunday school, the reason Adam and Eve were banished from Eden was because they ate of the "evil tree" of KNOWLEDGE. If anything, according to the Bible, God didn't want us to know shit.We were to multiply the earth and we choose to be good or bad the die only to retreat to praise him continuously for eternity. A God-centered plan, don't you think? A good God ought to be selfless, I would think.

I know we Nigerians are as religious are they come and many of you would have a "how dare you" look whilst reading my post but for a second, be logical. You really can't win with arguing God with a stauch fanatic. Religion is not even a reliable source of morality, yet we depend on it to make our laws.
I'm not saying religion is irrelevant because it helps us deal with hard times, something Nigerians are way too conversant with; hence religion. But to explain the physical world? Oh please.

Nairalanders u can not leave somebody to enjoy their post without counter thread. Nsogbu dikwa

i knew this will come up

Ur 5th reason though. Are u high or something, God wanted to tempt them. They where just prototypes, maybe he would have told them everything leta but they disobeyed... If God didn't want them to know, he would have hidden the tree in heaven rather than leaving it in the middle of Eden

BLINGZ88:
Ur 5th reason though. Are u high or something, God wanted to tempt them. They where just prototypes, maybe he would have told them everything leta but they disobeyed... If God didn't want them to know, he would have hidden the tree in heaven rather than leaving it in the middle of Eden

I thought they were our ancestors not prototypes of the real people. But anyway, he wanted to tempt them... I guess they acted exactly as he planned then.

In ur 4th reason, u talked about the sun standing still as unscientific but ur science believes in anomaly. U believe in worm holes, and faster than light expansion of the universe, so why can't the sun stand still as an anomaly but oh, u it can't cos a white man haven't said that it can yet

BLINGZ88:
In ur 4th reason, u talked about the sun standing still as unscientific but ur science believes in anomaly. U believe in worm holes, and faster than light expansion of the universe, so why can't the sun stand still as an anomaly but oh, u it can't cos a white man haven't said that it can yet

More than likely "a white man" said wrote the Bible.
All I'm saying is the sun moves continuously around the milky way galaxy not earth. So, it can't stand still for it to be daylight.
Some have dismissed it not to be taken literally but poetic.

DivaFiva:

I thought they were our ancestors not prototypes of the real people. But anyway, he wanted to tempt them... I guess they acted exactly as he planned then.

that's the problem with u scientists, u don't believe in God but u still want to think like him. They where the first and I used the term prototype to emphasis that. Asking me if God knew the out come of the test is the same as asking me to think like God which we Christians believe to be impossible

Let thy faith see you through...

BLINGZ88:
Nairalanders u can not leave somebody to enjoy their post without counter thread. Nsogbu dikwa

Enjoy post kwa?
You can learn one or two things and benefit from the counter threads.

DivaFiva:

More than likely "a white man" said wrote the Bible.
All I'm saying is the sun moves continuously around the milky way galaxy not earth. So, it can't stand still for it to be daylight.
Some have dismissed it not to be taken literally but poetic.

wrong again ma, the bible wasn't written by a white man, it is arguably the oldest history book. It maybe have been altered sometime in the past because of personal interest but all the version of the bible that have been found through out the years have one message. And I rather believe that the sun paused for some days that to believe in wormholes (that have not been observed directly) or the big bang theory that suggest that the universe expanded faster than light which according to ur science is the threshold of speed. U should read up on what u believe in sometimes. Like the big bang theory ( which is the most ridiculous of the all)

BLINGZ88:
that's the problem with u scientists, u don't believe in God but u still want to think like him. They where the first and I used the term prototype to emphasis that. Asking me if God knew the out come of the test is the same as asking me to think like God which we Christians believe to be impossible

Unfortunately, I'm not a scientist. (Wish I was though). I'm flattered you thought that of me.
I was just kidding when I talked about "prototype-ancestors".
"We Christians" also believe we are made in God's image and the use of knowledge to navigate life is paramount. So I'll use mine.
I grew up a Christian so I know.

In no 3, I kinda agree with u that scientist are trying when it comes to explanation but saying that the iphone is just as complex a just earth 4 instance is just plain crazy. Let me just explain something,the very big rock exploded( the big band theory) which is a probability, and all the galaxies went to their rightful places( probability) and then the nine planets formed in our solar system( another probability). Then earth formed ( probabilty) then protons, neutrons and electrons came together to form atom ( probability) then atomed formed molecules ( probability),molcules formed cells( probability) and so on and so fort till we came to be human beings that can walk and talk. Am sure u have an idea of what probability is , Please, just imagine the amount of independent events that had to talk place uniformly for humans to form, them multiply it for all the living organisms on earth. Then u will see that if we came about through evolution and big bang, then I'm must have been a miracle

In no 3, I kinda agree with u that scientist are trying when it comes to explanation but saying that the iphone is just as complex as just earth 4 instance is just plain crazy. Let me just explain something. A very big rock exploded( the big band theory) which is a probability, and all the galaxies went to their rightful places( probability) and then the nine planets formed in our solar system( another probability). Then earth formed ( probabilty) then protons, neutrons and electrons came together to form atom ( probability) then atomed formed molecules ( probability),molcules formed cells( probability) and so on and so fort till we came to be human beings that can walk and talk. Am sure u have an idea of what probability is , Please, just imagine the amount of independent events that had to talk place uniformly for humans to form, them multiply it for all the living organisms on earth. Then u will see that if we came about through evolution and big bang, then I'm must have been a miracle

BLINGZ88:
wrong again ma, the bible wasn't written by a white man, it is arguably the oldest history book. It maybe have been altered sometime in the past because of personal interest but all the version of the bible that have been found through out the years have one message. And I rather believe that the sun paused for some days that to believe in wormholes (that have not been observed directly) or the big bang theory that suggest that the universe expanded faster than light which according to ur science is the threshold of speed. U should read up on what u believe in sometimes. Like the big bang theory ( which is the most ridiculous of the all)

You are right, The Big Bang sounds ridiculous but so the the absence of gravity to someone who never of life in space, the idea of a spherical earth to the early Romans etc.
So who wrote the Bible? What are their races. I'd really love to know.
Most of the Bible we use are arguable incomplete not too talk of the alternative versions and changes that happen during translations and over time.
The Bible has been used to justify different inhuman practices and same goes for the Koran. What makes you think what you've been told is ABSOLUTE and won't change with time?

BLINGZ88:
In no 3, I kinda agree with u that scientist are trying when it comes to explanation but saying that the iphone is just as complex as just earth 4 instance is just plain crazy. Let me just explain something. A very big rock exploded( the big band theory) which is a probability, and all the galaxies went to their rightful places( probability) and then the nine planets formed in our solar system( another probability). Then earth formed ( probabilty) then protons, neutrons and electrons came together to form atom ( probability) then atomed formed molecules ( probability),molcules formed cells( probability) and so on and so fort till we came to be human beings that can walk and talk. Am sure u have an idea of what probability is , Please, just imagine the amount of independent events that had to talk place uniformly for humans to form, them multiply it for all the living organisms on earth. Then u will see that if we came about through evolution and big bang, then I'm must have been a miracle

I never said an iphone is just as complex.
15 years ago, if someone had brought you an iPhone from today, you would be convinced it was made by aliens.
All I'm saying is everything we don't understand it's workings is deemed complex. So complexity is relative.

Soon after astronomers proved the universe was expanding, it became evident that the universe was once very much smaller. The theory that the universe started from a single point (or very small area) is known as the big bang theory." So it's not a big rock that exploded.
I have imagined the independent event...seeing that I can't see our alternative look if one of the variable was altered, I don't think we would come out so bad either way seeing that we are not so perfect or better off now.

DivaFiva:

You are right, The Big Bang sounds ridiculous but so the the absence of gravity to someone who never of life in space, the idea of a spherical earth to the early Romans etc.
So who wrote the Bible? What are their races. I'd really love to know.
Most of the Bible we use are arguable incomplete not too talk of the alternative versions and changes that happen during translations and over time.
The Bible has been used to justify different inhuman practices and same goes for the Koran. What makes you think what you've been told is ABSOLUTE and won't change with time?

because religion( Christianity in particular) have been scrutinised by atheists long before the 21st century but it persisted. And I know that it will still persist long after am gone. Gravity will be ridiculous till the moment they start wondering how all the other planets suspend in there position instead of crashing right don't to them or speeding past them never to be seen again and the theories for a spherical earth is overwhelming and they should have noticed that all other huge heavenly bodies are circular in shape. But the fallacy of the big bang theory just proves my point that scientists are trying so hard to have an explanation for every thing. And maybe they will get to the root of creation with time but they will have more questions that answers. That I promise them

BLINGZ88:
wrong again ma, the bible wasn't written by a white man, it is arguably the oldest history book. It maybe have been altered sometime in the past because of personal interest but all the version of the bible that have been found through out the years have one message. And I rather believe that the sun paused for some days that to believe in wormholes (that have not been observed directly) or the big bang theory that suggest that the universe expanded faster than light which according to ur science is the threshold of speed. U should read up on what u believe in sometimes. Like the big bang theory ( which is the most ridiculous of the all)

I would like to take you up on that argument of the Bible being the oldest history book. If you mean oldest surviving printed history book...Maybe but not today.

BLINGZ88:
that's the problem with u scientists, u don't believe in God but u still want to think like him. They where the first and I used the term prototype to emphasis that. Asking me if God knew the out come of the test is the same as asking me to think like God which we Christians believe to be impossible

I thought you guys call "him" omniscient. Or don't you know what the word means?

DivaFiva:

I never said an iphone is just as complex.
15 years ago, if someone had brought you an iPhone from today, you would be convinced it was made by aliens.
All I'm saying is everything we don't understand it's workings is deemed complex. So complexity is relative.

Soon after astronomers proved the universe was expanding, it became evident that the universe was once very much smaller. The theory that the universe started from a single point (or very small area) is known as the big bang theory." So it's not a big rock that exploded.
I have imagined the independent event...seeing that I can't see our alternative look if one of the variable was altered, I don't think we would come out so bad either way seeing that we are not so perfect or better off now.

and I don't believe in religion because of what's the bible says. I believe in religion. 1. because the anomalies that science can't explain is overwhelming and 2. Because that of that feeling in my heart that I'm here today not because of a coincidence that was because of gravity. For Christ's sake, the universe looks like a planned architecture doesn't it?

emorse:


I thought you guys call "him" omniscient. Or don't you know what the word means?

he might know what will happen if something goes wrong and what will happen if the same thing goes write but if he knows that I for instance will go to hell after earth, then that defeats the plan for sending me here. My point being, that God have and will always leave us to choose the path that we have to follow even if he knows the outcome of both paths just like he did to the angels and lucifer not that he can't command us to do right but he because he won't force anyone to follow him

BLINGZ88:
he might know what will happen if something goes wrong and what will happen if the same thing goes write but if he knows that I for instance will go to hell after earth, then that defeats the plan for sending me here. My point being, that God have and will always leave us to choose the path that we have to follow even if he knows the outcome of both paths just like he did to the angels and lucifer not that he can't command us to do right but he because he won't force anyone to follow him

Now you're trying to think like him!

Bro, there are a lot of things we don't understand "yet". Ultimately, it comes to " belief". You choose what you believe not because it has proven beyond reasonable doubt that it is accurate but because it is convenient for you. So do I.

I'm a scientist, yes. But I believe a creator is responsible for life as we know it. What I'm having a hard time grasping is that he (the creator) has demands that we must meet and that our "free will" is not free after all.

My point is, I believe (conveniently) that religion is totally man made.

BLINGZ88:
In no 3, I kinda agree with u that scientist are trying when it comes to explanation but saying that the iphone is just as complex a just earth 4 instance is just plain crazy. Let me just explain something,the very big rock exploded( the big band theory) which is a probability, and all the galaxies went to their rightful places( probability) and then the nine planets formed in our solar system( another probability). Then earth formed ( probabilty) then protons, neutrons and electrons came together to form atom ( probability) then atomed formed molecules ( probability),molcules formed cells( probability) and so on and so fort till we came to be human beings that can walk and talk. Am sure u have an idea of what probability is , Please, just imagine the amount of independent events that had to talk place uniformly for humans to form, them multiply it for all the living organisms on earth. Then u will see that if we came about through evolution and big bang, then I'm must have been a miracle

am sure you are pointing towards intelligent design, problem is the universe just isn't intelligently designed.

DivaFiva:
Let me state that I'm not an atheist, yet.
I'm just not convinced that there is a God neither am I well versed to authoritatively proclaim that there is no God.
So here are my rebuttals to your points. @odijeks

1. God reveals Himself through nature
Nature is beautiful to say the least but do not state it is all perfect in it's design. You make God out to be all powerful and all good at the same time hence his creations are perfect and flawless but that is far from reality. There are numerous destructive aspects of your said "intelligent design" from earthquakes, to asteroids hits, drought, flood. Human being are not without our own "flaws" from conjoined babies to people missing parts or having to deal with extra unwelcomed "parts" like being born with a female reproductive organ and a penis at the same time! Some are not visible to the eyes but there are people with cognitive or neurological disorder. The diseases (including religious beliefs) that plague God's images are endless. In conclusion, If there is a God he is either all powerful but one hell of a tyrant.

2. Our Planet Earth
[img]http:///1T6UNQ1[/img]
Earth is not the only planet known to have conditions favorable to life. Exoplanets, planets outside our Solar System, have been found in the Goldilocks Zones of other stars in our galaxy. Actually there's something called the "habitable zone". It's a zone that every star has, and in it, provided water on the object (let's call it X object for the sake of comfort), the conditions (temperature from the star radiation, etc.) will be just perfect for life on X to start. Earth is only the proven because we are yet to explore.
I believe that we cannot be the only planet in the Universe that has life, because there is a billion billion galaxy in the Universe, each containing a hundred million billion stars with hundred million billion habitable zones and a gazillion objects in the habitable zone; who are we to say that none of them contain water AND life? Far from what we think, we are not the centre of the universe. The universe is not there to serve us.

3. Complexity of living organisms
Living organisms are complex but so is iphone, workings of some mathematical problems, or even the production process of a pencil. Point is, anything you don't understand is considered complex. Scientists have worked for centuries to undercover these said mysteries from how rain is formed to the actual shape of the earth to explain the biological workings of living things even microbes and we've only been a scientific society for so long.
For a society that relies on doctors, technicians, weather meteorologists, programmers; we give "God" way too much credit.. kinda like when we praise Buhari,who literally sleeps in the comfort of his bed or private jet( as the case may be), for the defeat of Boko Haram. Meanwhile, there are foot soldiers risk their lives and their efforts are barely recognised.

4. Theist Scientists
The poster proclaimed God "the best scientist"...technically, it depends on which God you are referring to. If I point out scientific flaws in the bible o ye religious fanatics would say it was a miracle and dismiss it as God bending the rule. I'll use the fact that the number of years the bible proclaims man has been in existence has been proven to be non scientific. The bible recorded that the "sun stood still" but that is not very scientific, is it? The scientists you called out are products of their religious society regardless of how radical their ideas were at the time. So yes, we are often moved to call God when we meet something do not understand and in most cases, these scientist did not mention an intelligent being in the aspects of physical world they had explanation for; they did so when they had "road blocks". If your God is responsible for what is yet to be explained by science then we better get ready to see God be unraveled by future scientists.

5. God exists because he impresses this fact in the heart of men
Basically, you said God puts knowledge in the hearts of men so he is indirectly responsible for scientific findings. Well, from what I remember in sunday school, the reason Adam and Eve were banished from Eden was because they ate of the "evil tree" of KNOWLEDGE. If anything, according to the Bible, God didn't want us to know shit.We were to multiply the earth and we choose to be good or bad the die only to retreat to praise him continuously for eternity. A God-centered plan, don't you think? A good God ought to be selfless, I would think.

I know we Nigerians are as religious are they come and many of you would have a "how dare you" look whilst reading my post but for a second, be logical. You really can't win with arguing God with a stauch fanatic. Religion is not even a reliable source of morality, yet we depend on it to make our laws.
I'm not saying religion is irrelevant because it helps us deal with hard times, something Nigerians are way too conversant with; hence religion. But to explain the physical world? Oh please.

1. first off, I never said nature is perfect. I said it is beautiful and depicts an intelligent design. An airplane or a space shuttle is not perfect. yet, it shows an intelligent design. I can't see a plane in the sky and attribute it to a work of nature. "an intelligent being created that device that defies the law of gravity" is exactly what I would think. If there was ever a point in the universe when there was nothing, and somehow through randomness or mere luck something began to exist, why should nature be mindful to create beautiful details? It could as well, and in fact would make much more sense to be perverted, warped and ugly since the formation processes were not directed by any individual, just mindless forces.

2. I've debated this topic of life with several learned foreign atheist. They refuse to believe that God created the universe, but the really smart ones are always sincere to tell me that they don't yet know the source of life. They say this because they've looked at the evolution and abiogenesis theory and know it doesn't make any sense. They don't try bringing it up because they know its flawed. Really study the claims of scientists on abiogenesis and evolution and you'll see what they mean. if you think just having a planet within a habitable zone is all it takes for life to be created then you've not really asked enough questions. Our moon, I believe should be in the habitable zone. why doesn't it have significant water existent? its simply because other factors like the planet's size, distance from the sun and its magnetic field has to be entirely accurate for it to hold water. The habitable zone of our solar system has an estimated range of 104,700,000km. Noting that in the formation of stars and planets, no planet chooses where it would be placed. our Earth had a free choice to randomly exist in any distance from 0-280,000,000,000km from the sun. Yet its the only planet that fitted itself within that range of the habitable zone. even within that habitable zone, altering the distance of the earth to the sun would prove utterly fatal to life. I'm sure you'll still choose to believe that earthlings were just lucky. Most times we ask the wrong questions and view things through the wrong lens. the right question should be "why is there something rather than nothing?" there being nothing is what makes sense. If there was ever a point in time when absolutely nothing existed, it would make much sense for absolutely nothing to exist now. But we can see a lot of things existing now, and not just simple jargon littered around, but highly complex systems.

3. Really? you are relating an Iphone and pencil production company with a complex living organism? an Iphone, we agree, was created by not one, but several engineers putting their ideas together. pencil production is directed by smart humans and programmed machines. Look at the complexity of a single celled bacteria. It can't even be created in the lab by the world's smartest scientist, yet you believe it was put together by mindless forces causing chemical reactions several billion years ago. A process that you believe occurred without any supervision, conduct or aim cannot be recreated by the best supervisors the earth can produce, and you refuse to rethink your idea? my point is, the more complex an item is, the more it stands to reason that intelligence created it. if you remember when you were taught of natural and man-made objects in your elementary school, by instinct, even as a child, you were able to point out without any further assistance, things that were man-made (because you could recognize intelligence and complex functions) and things that were natural objects. Now your knowledge has increased considerably from that time. but you fail to acknowledge intelligence when you see it simply because you don't want to give God the credit.

4. If you've read about Albert Einstein, you'll know he's not the type to be influenced by popular opinion or a "follow the crowd" type of person. he is arguably one of the smartest scientist to ever live. If science totally contradicts God, Einstein should have been an atheist (based on the kind of personality he was known to portray). God is not submissive to modern science. he doesn't have to agree to everything our scientists say, especially when it is as regards to events which he witnessed and carried out personally. Scientists are trying to figure out how it went down. God was present all along even at the beginning of all things. You may also want to search for "the missing day" or "scientific proof that the earth stood still" before you type that its not scientific.
God is not afraid of scientific discoveries. in fact, he wants us to discover more. because the more we know, the more we are meant to acknowledge his existence.

5. Because of God's righteousness and justice, he can't turn a blind eye to evil, hence, there is a day of judgement for every evil act committed. However, God knowing that we can never meet up to his standards (because he is so Holy) decided to take our judgement on himself. Jesus took your Judgement on himself. that is selflessness. He has already paid the price for every evil thing that men did or would ever do so they don't have to ever come into judgement again. All he demands is that you acknowledge you sin and accept his sacrifice for you. its that simple and free. But the atheist's problem isn't ignorance, knowledge or super-intelligence. It's simply pride. He is too proud to accept that he is in slavery to his sinful desires. He doesn't want to believe that he would be held accountable for his wrong actions by a Holy God, so he debunks the idea of this God's existence in order to find that peace he wants regardless of the evident presence of his sins. He is too proud to receive Life that he so desperately needs.

In summary, I always tell the atheist: If I die and was completely wrong about God, I have nothing to loose. For one, I lived a good life here on earth. I know who I was before I met God and know how much better I've become from knowing him (even if he was a lie). In fact, if atheism is true, I would just sleep, enter into nothingness, cease to exist and die like a plant. That means I won't even have a mind or consciousness to tell me that I spent my whole life living a lie. But what if the bible is true and the atheist is wrong, and he dies only to find out he was wrong. He has just committed an error that can't be undone. He wasn't ignorant of the truth. He just pushed it away. It's just not wise to take that chance. You stand nothing to loose by accepting life.

BLINGZ88:
In no 3, I kinda agree with u that scientist are trying when it comes to explanation but saying that the iphone is just as complex a just earth 4 instance is just plain crazy. Let me just explain something,the very big rock exploded( the big band theory) which is a probability, and all the galaxies went to their rightful places( probability) and then the nine planets formed in our solar system( another probability). Then earth formed ( probabilty) then protons, neutrons and electrons came together to form atom ( probability) then atomed formed molecules ( probability),molcules formed cells( probability) and so on and so fort till we came to be human beings that can walk and talk. Am sure u have an idea of what probability is , Please, just imagine the amount of independent events that had to talk place uniformly for humans to form, them multiply it for all the living organisms on earth. Then u will see that if we came about through evolution and big bang, then I'm must have been a miracle

Lol. thats why many say it takes more faith to be an atheist than it takes to be thesit. Atheists actually have faith, not in God, but in mindless factors like space, time and chance.

BLINGZ88:
In no 3, I kinda agree with u that scientist are trying when it comes to explanation but saying that the iphone is just as complex a just earth 4 instance is just plain crazy. Let me just explain something,the very big rock exploded( the big band theory) which is a probability, and all the galaxies went to their rightful places( probability) and then the nine planets formed in our solar system( another probability). Then earth formed ( probabilty) then protons, neutrons and electrons came together to form atom ( probability) then atomed formed molecules ( probability),molcules formed cells( probability) and so on and so fort till we came to be human beings that can walk and talk. Am sure u have an idea of what probability is , Please, just imagine the amount of independent events that had to talk place uniformly for humans to form, them multiply it for all the living organisms on earth. Then u will see that if we came about through evolution and big bang, then I'm must have been a miracle

If you know the number of galaxies, planets etc out there, it will dawn on you that this is no miracle and the probabilities involved are actually quite high.

odijeks:

1. first off, I never said nature is perfect. I said it is beautiful and depicts an intelligent design. An airplane or a space shuttle is not perfect. yet, it shows an intelligent design. I can't see a plane in the sky and attribute it to a work of nature. "an intelligent being created that device that defies the law of gravity" is exactly what I would think. If there was ever a point in the universe when there was nothing, and somehow through randomness or mere luck something began to exist, why should nature be mindful to create beautiful details? It could as well, and in fact would make much more sense to be perverted, warped and ugly since the formation processes were not directed by any individual, just mindless forces.

I didn't say that...I inferred that the work of an all powerful and all benevolent God would be."Perverted, warped and ugly are are not the worse description people will ascribe to a work of nature. Plus these attributes are very subjective to people, place and time.

odijeks:

2. I've debated this topic of life with several learned foreign atheist. They refuse to believe that God created the universe, but the really smart ones are always sincere to tell me that they don't yet know the source of life. They say this because they've looked at the evolution and abiogenesis theory and know it doesn't make any sense. They don't try bringing it up because they know its flawed. Really study the claims of scientists on abiogenesis and evolution and you'll see what they mean. if you think just having a planet within a habitable zone is all it takes for life to be created then you've not really asked enough questions. Our moon, I believe should be in the habitable zone. why doesn't it have significant water existent? its simply because other factors like the planet's size, distance from the sun and its magnetic field has to be entirely accurate for it to hold water. The habitable zone of our solar system has an estimated range of 104,700,000km. Noting that in the formation of stars and planets, no planet chooses where it would be placed. our Earth had a free choice to randomly exist in any distance from 0-280,000,000,000km from the sun. Yet its the only planet that fitted itself within that range of the habitable zone. even within that habitable zone, altering the distance of the earth to the sun would prove utterly fatal to life. I'm sure you'll still choose to believe that earthlings were just lucky. Most times we ask the wrong questions and view things through the wrong lens. the right question should be "why is there something rather than nothing?" there being nothing is what makes sense. If there was ever a point in time when absolutely nothing existed, it would make much sense for absolutely nothing to exist now. But we can see a lot of things existing now, and not just simple jargon littered around, but highly complex systems.

Earth is not the only habitable planet. It is only the one we have seen. Have you seen the rest of the universe? In comparison, science has only explored less than 5% the size of the multiverse and that include earth. So that is a pretty bogus claim to make seeing that there have been findings of Exoplanets that have the formula for life to thrive.

odijeks:

3. Really? you are relating an Iphone and pencil production company with a complex living organism? an Iphone, we agree, was created by not one, but several engineers putting their ideas together. pencil production is directed by smart humans and programmed machines. Look at the complexity of a single celled bacteria. It can't even be created in the lab by the world's smartest scientist, yet you believe it was put together by mindless forces causing chemical reactions several billion years ago. A process that you believe occurred without any supervision, conduct or aim cannot be recreated by the best supervisors the earth can produce, and you refuse to rethink your idea? my point is, the more complex an item is, the more it stands to reason that intelligence created it. if you remember when you were taught of natural and man-made objects in your elementary school, by instinct, even as a child, you were able to point out without any further assistance, things that were man-made (because you could recognize intelligence and complex functions) and things that were natural objects. Now your knowledge has increased considerably from that time. but you fail to acknowledge intelligence when you see it simply because you don't want to give God the credit.

Like I pointed, humans have only embraced science for so long and yet the strides are insurmountable. From fixing birth limb defects with prosthetics to 3d printing of tissues with blood vessels and everything inbetween. Give humans more credit. To think that you live in a society that heavy leans on doctors, programmers, engineers and you still undercut their achievements is unsettling.

odijeks:

4. If you've read about Albert Einstein, you'll know he's not the type to be influenced by popular opinion or a "follow the crowd" type of person. he is arguably one of the smartest scientist to ever live. If science totally contradicts God, Einstein should have been an atheist (based on the kind of personality he was known to portray). God is not submissive to modern science. he doesn't have to agree to everything our scientists say, especially when it is as regards to events which he witnessed and carried out personally. Scientists are trying to figure out how it went down. God was present all along even at the beginning of all things. You may also want to search for "the missing day" or "scientific proof that the earth stood still" before you type that its not scientific.
God is not afraid of scientific discoveries. in fact, he wants us to discover more. because the more we know, the more we are meant to acknowledge his existence.

I have read about Albert Einstein and obviously, It doesn't take a prophet to know he was a radical of his time but he was still human regardless. Inevitably, a product of a society. Of course you will say that God does not obey science but in the same breath want to prove that God exists with science.

odijeks:

5. Because of God's righteousness and justice, he can't turn a blind eye to evil, hence, there is a day of judgement for every evil act committed. However, God knowing that we can never meet up to his standards (because he is so Holy) decided to take our judgement on himself. Jesus took your Judgement on himself. that is selflessness. He has already paid the price for every evil thing that men did or would ever do so they don't have to ever come into judgement again. All he demands is that you acknowledge you sin and accept his sacrifice for you. its that simple and free. But the atheist's problem isn't ignorance, knowledge or super-intelligence. It's simply pride. He is too proud to accept that he is in slavery to his sinful desires. He doesn't want to believe that he would be held accountable for his wrong actions by a Holy God, so he debunks the idea of this God's existence in order to find that peace he wants regardless of the evident presence of his sins. He is too proud to receive Life that he so desperately needs.

So the ultimate price was being wrongly accused and killed in public. But then you knew you were going to heaven or better yet resurrect in three days. I believe countless number of humans have suffered worse fate with no guarantee of a seat in heaven or an unending reverence on earth as incentive s Jesus had. I'm happy to acknowledge that I do not know but if he was there he is obviously not bothered with what's going on with us, let alone what we do in the dark.

odijeks:

In summary, I always tell the atheist: If I die and was completely wrong about God, I have nothing to loose. For one, I lived a good life here on earth. I know who I was before I met God and know how much better I've become from knowing him (even if he was a lie). In fact, if atheism is true, I would just sleep, enter into nothingness, cease to exist and die like a plant. That means I won't even have a mind or consciousness to tell me that I spent my whole life living a lie. But what if the bible is true and the atheist is wrong, and he dies only to find out he was wrong. He has just committed an error that can't be undone. He wasn't ignorant of the truth. He just pushed it away. It's just not wise to take that chance. You stand nothing to loose by accepting life.

I do acknowledge that I do not know enough to say that there is no God(that's ballsy). In all honesty, there most likely is an intelligent being who set the ball rolling but I will say this though that the people who wrote and interpreted these religious books have pulled the greatest scam that keeps scamming on humanity. This intelligent being probably couldn't care less about the nitty gritty laws religions have invented to have control over how people live.
If God really did care about "what's in the heart", then I'm sure a lot of atheists will have no problem making the cut into heaven. But if I am given a choice, I'd rather be somewhere else than stand in line and praise a God that could easily be praised by stones for eternity. To each his own.

By the way, Einstein was not religious; he didn't believe in God in a religious way. He viewed the concept of God through the same prism as Spinoza; therefore he can best be described as Agnostic.

Read more here: (yes, it is Wikipedia but it is accurate)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Albert_Einstein

lalasticlala, how far now?

#frontpage counter-thread

BLINGZ88:
Ur 5th reason though. Are u high or something, God wanted to tempt them. They where just prototypes, maybe he would have told them everything leta but they disobeyed... If God didn't want them to know, he would have hidden the tree in heaven rather than leaving it in the middle of Eden

Why would an all knowing God decide to tempt his creation knowing fully well that they'll fail?

BLINGZ88:
In ur 4th reason, u talked about the sun standing still as unscientific but ur science believes in anomaly. U believe in worm holes, and faster than light expansion of the universe, so why can't the sun stand still as an anomaly but oh, u it can't cos a white man haven't said that it can yet

This is because the Sun has never moved relatively to the earth. The concept of Night and Day exists because the earth revolves around the Sun. So when the bible said the Sun stood still, it was wrong. For the day to elongate the earth needs to stand still, not the Sun

DivaFiva:

Earth is not the only habitable planet. It is only the one we have seen. Have you seen the rest of the universe? In comparison, science has only explored less than 5% the size of the multiverse and that include earth. So that is a pretty bogus claim to make seeing that there have been findings of Exoplanets that have the formula for life to thrive.

There is little contradiction between what I said and what you posted above. In my post I said Earth is the only "KNOWN" habitable planet and like you rightly pointed out there are possibilities of there being several other habitable planets in the universe. But if you push it further to think that all it takes to create life is the presence of a habitable planet, then you've allowed the scientists confuse your thinking. the habitable zones only relate to planets being able to hold water in liquid state. it is however not the only factor necessary for this phenomenon to happen as I previously noted, cos if it was, our moon would have liquid water on it. Also note that Water sustains life. It however doesn't create life. Water is a very important factor for life sustenance, but we both know that its one of the several things that makes life possible. A CHZ zone, along with other variables, only makes water likely available. So if you look at it critically, a CHZ zone is still a long shot away from bringing together all the requirements for life as we have on our planet. So much more still has to be put in place.

Like I pointed, humans have only embraced science for so long and yet the strides are insurmountable. From fixing birth limb defects with prosthetics to 3d printing of tissues with blood vessels and everything inbetween. Give humans more credit. To think that you live in a society that heavy leans on doctors, programmers, engineers and you still undercut their achievements is unsettling.

Don't misunderstand me. I'm not discrediting scientists or science. Science and technology has made life a lot more comfortable and meaningful. If anything, I would love for us to increase in our discoveries and achievements as humans and I'm sure this would happen in the future ahead. If people are sincere enough, they'll be able to link scientific discoveries with the truth about God and his intellect. But No!, they'll rather attribute magnificent brilliance to luck.

I have read about Albert Einstein and obviously, It doesn't take a prophet to know he was a radical of his time but he was still human regardless. Inevitably, a product of a society. Of course you will say that God does not obey science but in the same breath want to prove that God exists with science.

Its true you don't have to take anybody's word for it. You as well have an intelligent mind and can make conclusions you want after analyzing facts laid before you. These ones understood scientific laws, but they knew that universal laws couldn't explain everything they could see or perceive. and you, if you are African, should be in the better place to know that there are things that could go down right before your eyes that makes rubbish of all you've learned from your physics and chemistry textbooks, signifying existence of supernatural forces not bound to natural laws.

So the ultimate price was being wrongly accused and killed in public. But then you knew you were going to heaven or better yet resurrect in three days. I believe countless number of humans have suffered worse fate with no guarantee of a seat in heaven or an unending reverence on earth as incentive s Jesus had. I'm happy to acknowledge that I do not know but if he was there he is obviously not bothered with what's going on with us, let alone what we do in the dark.

You talked about the Earth being imperfect. that is true. But God let evil run its course till the appointed time when He would destroy all evil and bring back perfection. However, He would judge based on who he is and his standards not by man's standards. Unfortunately for man, God is so Holy that we can never meet his standards. We would always fall short no matter how hard we try. That spells doom for the human race when God finally judges and does away with evil on the last day. What Jesus did was to bring the judgement day to the cross, God judged all men guilty because we really were and He sentenced us to death and hell. Jesus took this punishment on our behalf, so regardless of what happens here on earth, when we die we never have to face judgement for our sins. we are allowed to enjoy eternal life with God even though we don't deserve it. God has already addressed the judgement of the whole human race on Jesus and would never bring our cases back to court cos our cases have been fully dismissed. There is nothing more precious to a man than his life. you could give up everything you own to safe guard your life. But God proved how he loves you by laying down his own life in your place. Many think that sounds absurd, but I know several men that would willingly take the place of their daughter dying of cancer on a hospital bed. That's how sympathetic God was towards us as regards the coming judgement.

I do acknowledge that I do not know enough to say that there is no God(that's ballsy). In all honesty, there most likely is an intelligent being who set the ball rolling but I will say this though that the people who wrote and interpreted these religious books have pulled the greatest scam that keeps scamming on humanity. This intelligent being probably couldn't care less about the nitty gritty laws religions have invented to have control over how people live.
If God really did care about "what's in the heart", then I'm sure a lot of atheists will have no problem making the cut into heaven. But if I am given a choice, I'd rather be somewhere else than stand in line and praise a God that could easily be praised by stones for eternity. To each his own.

Maybe what you should be doing is to really research the authenticity and claims of the bible. Neglect what people have said is in the bible, open it and read it for yourself to actually know what it says.