₦airaland Forum

hopefulLandlord:
You act as though you know it all, you explain everything in the way you "think" and try to present that as "knowledge" if you can't see the problem in that, more power to you,

read through your posts so far, that's why this discussion is getting longer while going nowhere in particular

I can't remember the verse exactly but it's in the old testament, he quoted it and I opened the bible to read it and it was exactly the way he said, I remember that vividly because it was also a discussion similar to what you're having right now

He admitted his ignorance about things like predestination and the belief in "fatality" (read the meaning if you only know one definition of fatality)

The problem you have is that you want me to see things only from you point of view. it doesnt work that way .It shows you are actually acting as though you know it all.
The guy i'm discussing with isnt imposing his views on me and i am not imposing mine. We are just sharing our ideas about these mysteries surrounding life and thats how people learn from each other.
Maybe you think I am on a mission to WIN in this discussion as some of you do. I am not. I did not rule predestination out what i did is to point out my own views about it then separate it from foreknowledge.
I didnt say that the bible verse your coworker quoted for you is false. What i said is that it didnt specify what we are discussing as one of the areas we shouldnt have knowledge about. Or did it? And if it didnt, why do you think that no man should have knowledge about it since your coworker doesnt have it?

honourhim:
The problem you have is that you want me to see things only from you point of view. it doesnt work that way .It shows you are actually acting as though you know it all.
The guy i'm discussing with isnt imposing his views on me and i am not imposing mine. We are just sharing our ideas about these mysteries surrounding life and thats how people learn from each other.
Maybe you think I am on a mission to WIN in this discussion as some of you do. I am not. I did not rule predestination out what i did is to point out my own views about it then separate it from foreknowledge.
I didnt say that the bible verse your coworker quoted for you is false. What i said is that it didnt specify what we are discussing as one of the areas we shouldnt have knowledge about. Or did it? And if it didnt, why do you think that no man should have knowledge about it since your coworker doesnt have it?

Bros, I'm not saying you're tryna win

But its hard if not impossible to separate predestination from foreknowledge

That's the point, nobody "knows"

NB: the verse ain't false, but since I can't remember it specifically, I'll let that slide

Enjoy

honourhim:
Nope. like i said when we started this discussion, it is the world that is predestined to be a place of good and evil. Man is not predestined for good or for bad rather he is given the ability to choose which side of the divide to be..The redemption plan is there for those who may CHOOSE to be redeemed back to good(righteousness) from bad. Thats the point i ve been making

Haaaaa, you said that an omin-potent\science god knew Lucifer will fall, which has caused the nature of the story from Genesis to Jesus death(redemption plan), is it not rational to also say that the redeemed are already known, just like Lucifer ?
Damnn, I hope I'm not d confused one, please reread the discussion so far.

honourhim:
Yea, thats what is also contained in the scripture. And of course no one can create with the sole aim of pleasing what he will create. The very first interest that brings up the idea for you to create is not to please what you will create. So God's very first interest for creating us cannot be to please us first rather to please himself first, then us.

Damnn, if u say now that the sole aim of the creator is to first please himself, then how can u be so sure that his creations have not been predestined, for his purpose ?

honourhim:
Maybe or may not be. And if it is, then thats it. Mine is to always choose the good side(righteousness).

Againnn, if ur reply to this is 'maybe or maybe not', why then are u certain about his purpose?

honourhim:
Ok thats your opinion. My position is different.

Yea, and my opinion is only logical.

honourhim:
Yea you said it . Now tell me about this your God.

Haba!, shey u no like Yahweh again abi, u won covert ?

Abeg it be like say u won confuse me, so b4 replying, please read again the convo so far .

hopefulLandlord:
Bros, I'm not saying you're tryna win

But its hard if not impossible to separate predestination from foreknowledge

That's the point, nobody "knows"

NB: the verse ain't false, but since I can't remember it specifically, I'll let that slide

Enjoy

I think the verse might be proverbs25:2:
'It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the honour of kings to search out a matter'

4kings:
Haaaaa, you said that an omin-potent\science god knew Lucifer will fall, which has caused the nature of the story from Genesis to Jesus death(redemption plan), is it not rational to also say that the redeemed are already known, just like Lucifer ?
Damnn, I hope I'm not d confused one, please reread the discussion so far.



.

It seems you ve forgotten some of the areas we touched in this discussion.

Predestination is one of the things you raised and i explained to you my views about predestination and gave instances of my biblical reasons for it.
I talked about God's foreknowledge and you gave me instances of Moses and Abraham and his children as predestination. I explained to you how the instances you gave falls under foreknowledge. I also have maintained that we have freedom of choice but we cant choose not to suffer the consequences of our chosen act. I mentioned the case of lucifer and God's foreknowledge about his fall and that of man. I'm wondering what i said here that is different from my position about God having foreknowledge about us or my position about our freedom of choice.
God having foreknowledge of our life from beginning to the end does not mean he planned it to be as it is. Except you are telling me that predestination and foreknowledge means the same thing to you.
Foreknowledge of our beginning to the end of course means that he knows how we will end but it doesnt mean that he planned it to be so since he already gave us the freedom to make our choices. This means he knows the redeemed.
Again you tried to clarify me that predestination may not apply to everything about a person of which i said i dont rule you out.

4kings:
Damnn, if u say now that the sole aim of the creator is to first please himself, then how can u be so sure that his creations have not been predestined, for his purpose ?



.

And where you asled me similar question to this i answered you that if everything about us is predestined then there wouldnt be need for the warnings in the scriptures, no need for the scripture to tell us several times to pray, no need for the admonitions in the scripture, no need for sermon etc. You also brought up an issue about salvation which i told you that salvation is for whosoever will according to the scripture.

4kings:
Againnn, if ur reply to this is 'maybe or maybe not', why then are u certain about his purpose?


.

My reply to this was based on the word "entertainment" which you used there.

4kings:
Haba!, shey u no like Yahweh again abi, u won covert ?

No conversion intended but we need to discuss this your God. Except you dont have confidence in him yet to be out to discuss about him.

hopefulLandlord:
Bros, I'm not saying you're tryna win

But its hard if not impossible to separate predestination from foreknowledge

That's the point, nobody "knows"

NB: the verse ain't false, but since I can't remember it specifically, I'll let that slide

Enjoy

This discussion and my answers has been based on the biblical accounts. I didnt rule predestination out. Predestination and foreknowledge can be separated but one cannot know it all.

honourhim:
It seems you ve forgotten some of the areas we touched in this discussion.

Predestination is one of the things you raised and i explained to you my views about predestination and gave instances of my biblical reasons for it.
I talked about God's foreknowledge and you gave me instances of Moses and Abraham and his children as predestination. I explained to you how the instances you gave falls under foreknowledge. I also have maintained that we have freedom of choice but we cant choose not to suffer the consequences of our chosen act. I mentioned the case of lucifer and God's foreknowledge about his fall and that of man. I'm wondering what i said here that is different from my position about God having foreknowledge about us or my position about our freedom of choice.
God having foreknowledge of our life from beginning to the end does not mean he planned it to be as it is. Except you are telling me that predestination and foreknowledge means the same thing to you.
Foreknowledge of our beginning to the end of course means that he knows how we will end but it doesnt mean that he planned it to be so since he already gave us the freedom to make our choices. This means he knows the redeemed.
Again you tried to clarify me that predestination may not apply to everything about a person of which i said i dont rule you out.

Let's analyse this: according to you, **Foreknowledge of our beginning to the end of course means that HE KNOWS how we will END but it doesnt mean that he PLANNED it to be so since he already gave us the FREEDOM to make our CHOICES. This means HE KNOWS the redeemed.**

Yahweh has foreknowledge: this means he has THOUGHT about it, right?
Then he ACTUALISES his THOUGHT, by creating the universe and all its inhabitants.
We have also established the fact that he has foreknowledge of the END, 'HE KNOWS how we will END' - according to you.
Predestination simply means assigning for a particular use or purpose. Now the purpose here is his 'thought' and the assignment is his 'actualisation of this thought', not so?

It seems u are concentrating on the warnings and promises he gave to men, but with what I've said we can establish also that 'it is part of his purpose', because he has THOUGHT of it beforehand. You dig?

honourhim:
No conversion intended but we need to discuss this your God. Except you dont have confidence in him yet to be out to discuss about him.

I believe in a creator who doesn't interfere in man's action (Deism)

4kings:
Let's analyse this: according to you, **Foreknowledge of our beginning to the end of course means that HE KNOWS how we will END but it doesnt mean that he PLANNED it to be so since he already gave us the FREEDOM to make our CHOICES. This means HE KNOWS the redeemed.**

Yahweh has foreknowledge: this means he has THOUGHT about it, right?
Then he ACTUALISES his THOUGHT, by creating the universe and all its inhabitants.
We have also established the fact that he has foreknowledge of the END, 'HE KNOWS how we will END' - according to you.
Predestination simply means assigning for a particular use or purpose. Now the purpose here is his 'thought' and the assignment is his 'actualisation of this thought', not so?

It seems u are concentrating on the warnings and promises he gave to men, but with what I've said we can establish also that 'it is part of his purpose', because he has THOUGHT of it beforehand. You dig?

Not exactly. The way i see it is this-
God wants to create a world where beings who will have the ability to make choices will inhabit. The choice they will make is between good and
evil. Whatever choice anyone makes, he faces the consequences. From the inception of your life he forsees you and how you will make your choice.
The part of the warning is- why will he warn us if he has already structured us to make a particular choice?
Where i think both of us have different ideologies is the part of God structuring us to make the choices that we will make.

Anyway you ve made some good points in your submissions so far and might be right.

4kings:
I believe in a creator who doesn't interfere in man's action (Deism)

So man should do whatever he likes and he doesnt care?

@4kings, With the biblical portions i came across on predestination, i think you might be right. It appears that God's foreknowledge and predestination are linked. Let me open a thread for it so that i can get the views of my christian brothers about it. Thanks.

hopefulLandlord:
Bros, I'm not saying you're tryna win

But its hard if not impossible to separate predestination from foreknowledge

That's the point, nobody "knows"

NB: the verse ain't false, but since I can't remember it specifically, I'll let that slide

Enjoy

Sorry bro. You might be right. I came across something in the bible that seems to support what you said. I'm opening a thread onvit to get more views from my fellow christians. Thanks.

honourhim:
Not exactly. The way i see it is this-
God wants to create a world where beings who will have the ability to make choices will inhabit. The choice they will make is between good and
evil. Whatever choice anyone makes, he faces the consequences. From the inception of your life he forsees you and how you will make your choice.
The part of the warning is- why will he warn us if he has already structured us to make a particular choice?
Where i think both of us have different ideologies is the part of God structuring us to make the choices that we will make.

Anyway you ve made some good points in your submissions so far and might be right.

Ok.
Let me see the outcome of your thread.
Its been a nice convo.

honourhim:
So man should do whatever he likes and he doesnt care?

Precisely

Nairaland atheists and lies. Read how this liar was exposed

https://www.nairaland.com/3485930/exposing-hardmirror-tale-two-mirrors