₦airaland Forum

raphieMontella:
i hope u know...accepted facts all arise from hypothesis?
A scientific hypothesis is far better than ''faith''
hypothesis are well calculated guesses..

raphieMontella:
quantum fluctuations ?@bolded

shadeyinka:
Those are big words for "quantum" is not a particle , a particle is discribed by quantum theories. Energies or Particles, which came first and attempting to correlate this with known physics, Energies must have at least a source.

shadeyinka:
Or not at all. Like software and hardware are drastically different in nature yet inseparable in the complete description of a computer.

The spirit rhelm may just be like the software component of life.

shadeyinka:
If this is really true, its impossible to visualize.

Its like having too much faith in abstract mathematic which at the end may just be Fractals

Bamidelefundz:
Bro, I'm an atheist. I should tell you that there can never be a time t=0 at any point in time In the universe. Time is not real at any point, it's just an illustration to define space at a particular point not necessary the start of the point. If t=0 at the singularity, that means an external factor started the Big Bang from singularity. My own problem with an external factor starting Big Bang from singularity is what entity can survive 53,000,000,000k within seconds that quark start to form from the unified force leading to fermions and gluons. It's impossible for an entity to withstand that temperature unless the external factor itself is universe. Your argument is solid but don't conclude it yet. Universe is still an hypothesis and should always be open ended to human beings

ValentineMary:
I hope u know singularities are in the heart of a black hole?

raphieMontella:
virtual particles arise through quantum fluctuations....unaided...
And matter/energy is defined in the first law of thermodynamics...so?
The virtual particles arising unaided??

ValentineMary:
Well we can edit or write the software. There is proof for the software. Software helps in running the system. What helps in running of the universe? the prevailing laws of physics. This does not need faith, neither does it need indoctrination. Have u thought of possibility of another universe where our current laws break down?

Have u thought of possibility of another universe where our current laws break down?

ValentineMary:
Actually I started this argument by saying time is a factor of space and the OP doubted so I posted that. I know time is an illusion created by man to calculate events. But even this illusion (time) can't exist without space. Why we have events is because we have space.

shadeyinka:
Faith is NOT blind as you suppose. Faith just simply means Trusting in the Integrity of God and His Words. It is more tangible than you think.

An example: If Dangote promises to give you N10 million naira before the end of the month, won't you start making plans for how you will spend the money? Why, because you trust in his asset and ability to give you even much more.

Guesses well calculated which may actually go tangent to the truth. A person can be sincerely wrong isnt it?

Thebtruth is some of us have experiences which cannot be waived away. The fact that you may not have such kinds of experience does not change the reality. Like, how do you convince a person who has a profound near death experience that he was just hallucinating? Your inexperience in NDE could bias you as an atheist to insist on believing contrary.

shadeyinka...observe this

The fact that you may not have such kinds of experience does not change the reality.

shadeyinka:
Do you know that this statement is as complex as comprehending God? Yet as scientists, we find a place in our hearts to give it a chance of correctness.

Keywords: unaided, virtual particles!

raphieMontella:
oboi! Go and learn quantum physics...classical physics is a baby!
Quantum physics violates classical physics like abc

ValentineMary:
Actually I started this argument by saying time is a factor of space and the OP doubted so I posted that. I know time is an illusion created by man to calculate events. But even this illusion (time) can't exist without space. Why we have events is because we have space.

shadeyinka:
I perfectly agree with you, time is a factor of space.

However time makes sense only in terms of the physical rhelm and itmay not just be an illusion because it is an everyday reality we face. Even, nucleis decay and it takes a period btw two events. Yes, the unit of measurement of time was man created.

I guess a serious question we should ponder upon is this: What is SPACE?
Is space just a mathematical convenience or a reality?

I agree, we have events because we have space

Lennycool:
See the contradictory statements you theist make, you reiterate that nothing can come out of nothing, yet you believe God came out of nothing because he is eternal. Is that logic?

shadeyinka:
We can edit or write softwares why? because we wrote them as an assemblage of sequence of instructions acting on data. That is we are the creator of the life of the computer.

Can a computer edit or write its own operating system? Can a computer prove that it is not just an electrical hardware connected to electricity? We are like a computer with an artificial intelligence running on steroids.

Don't forget that the language and the nature of man and computers are vastly different. A computer can only reason in terms of sequences of electrical pulses.


The possibility is real and that is what Theists have been asserting over a long time without any "scientific proof". We call it the Spirit Rhelm (maybe science will give it another name defined by some complex mathematics) of which God is the Head.

Its amazing that some cultures of old without any telescope discovered at least 5-7 planets. Honestly, this still baffles me. How did they do it? Even if they can see some planets, why don't they call it stars. Why name them after their gods (Mars, Venus,Jupiter..). Did they arrive at the conclusion by faith or by observation or by revelation?

Correctness should not only be measured by scientific yardstick. Don't you think so?

I believe nature is the programmer of these physical laws.
By saying another universe governed by another law, I don't mean spiritual laws rather another type of physical laws. For example the laws that govern the quantum world is not the same that governs the classical world. According to string theory, there are 11 dimensions and we exist in just 4. Can't there be more beyond our imagination so we should not restrict our knowledge to only one possibility.

As for the ancient men that viewd planets, they used star charts and kept record of the movement of celestial bodies. That's how.

shadeyinka:
Are'nt black holes supposed to be collapsed stars. I am not sure, but shouldn't they have a size? Sorry my expertees is not in this field.

ValentineMary:
I believe space is a reality. But mathematics helps us describe it better.

shadeyinka:
If Scientists cannot be too sure and certain of the origin of the universe, then how can they be sure that there is no "Other Rules/Forces" which may not obey all our physical laws.

Here, you will notice that i talk about probability. If the premise of the Atheist is wrong, would it not be because of an obstinate conclusion of certainty over what has a probability.

if the fundamental law of Physics is broken, then there must be some other un-accounted force in operation. theists will say :that the scientifically unaccounted force is God.

ValentineMary:
I believe space is a reality. But mathematics helps us describe it better.

ValentineMary:

The classical
version of the Big Bang cosmological model of
the universe contains a causal singularity at
the start of time ( t =0), where all time-like
geodesics have no extensions into the past.
Extrapolating backward to this hypothetical
time 0 results in a universe with all spatial
dimensions of size zero, infinite density,
infinite temperature, and infinite space-time
curvature.

source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity

shadeyinka:
If Space then is real, can it mutate in size? Like we know what the vast space look like in classical mechanics. Do we expect the definition of space to change in the non classical dimension?

Is it the possible by any means that space can vanish? In the classical world, space can only vanish if it is completely filled with matter. I find it impossible to comprehend that just before the bang space is zero.

Black holes which is an approximation of the singleton before the b bang exist in space, why should this be different art the bang.

Now in relation to your previous post


If space cannot have spatial dimensions of size zero then we should be able to extend time back as far as possible before the big bang. Then, the cause of the bang must necessarily be external to the singularity.

It is healthy to sometimes disagree with the professors!

lordnicklaus:
Space is expanding beyond our comprehension of mathematics. It has been mathematically proven that there is an immeasurable dimension called "infinitesimal" and time is not an existent factor in such a dimension.

raphieMontella:
i like your style..its scientific..
IOW u mean those virtual particles were not really unaided?
They were aided?

ValentineMary:
Then I think we have to invent higher mathematical methods just as Newton invented calculus to resolve the problem of gravity.

lordnicklaus:
HI bro! The quantum principle can only be accounted for in an already created universe and not a universe in its pre-creation state. Scientists were not around during the creation of the universe and so, can not entirely deduce if the quantum dimension was functional before the creation of the universe. Since it was discovered in an already established universe, we can rightly say that the quantum principle can only be verified in a universe already in motion.

lordnicklaus:
The workings of the universe are gradually unravelling to us but putting a creator out of the picture wouldn't be entirely rational or perfectly logical. Though it would be too presumptuous to claim to understand the mysteries of the universe.

ValentineMary:
I believe nature is the programmer of these physical laws.
By saying another universe governed by another law, I don't mean spiritual laws rather another type of physical laws. For example the laws that govern the quantum world is not the same that governs the classical world. According to string theory, there are 11 dimensions and we exist in just 4. Can't there be more beyond our imagination so we should not restrict our knowledge to only one possibility.

As for the ancient men that viewd planets, they used star charts and kept record of the movement of celestial bodies. That's how.

ValentineMary:
The event horizon has size based on the amount of matter taken in. They are actually collapsed stars but due to their infinte density, they from a singularity.

AnonyNymous:
Yes, just like the M-theory which I support might shatter the basis of 3-dimensional space brought to our knowledge by classical Newtonian physics. And explain things like memories being transported by water, reincarnation, etc
The problem is, if you choose to call the unknown 'god' fine. But then when you are trying to ascribe humanoid characteristics and behaviours to 'god' which we already called 'the unknown' I have a problem with you.

lordnicklaus:
Space is expanding beyond our comprehension of mathematics. It has been mathematically proven that there is an immeasurable dimension called "infinitesimal" and time is not an existent factor in such a dimension.

ValentineMary:
How we view space in classical mechanics might be slightly different from how we view it in quantum mechanics because in quantum mechanics particles are isolated but in classical, they interact with other forms of matter. So the definition does not change but the type of interaction it undergoes changes thus giving rise to different phenomenons.

ValentineMary:
Prof Brian Cox once gave a public lectuer once where he said he proved mathematically that space can tear apart (break). So over the entity it breaks, it vanishes. Also it is hard for me to visualize a spaceless entity but remember that our ability to visualize is shaped by experience. So u can't visualize it because u have not experienced it before.

ValentineMary:
Actually space can't have spatial dimension of zero but the singularity has a spatial dimension of zero so we can't go to the time before the big bang because there was no time then.