The title of the thread is clear enough, there have been arguments back and forth on this board on the point of view that nature is precise and ordered and on the other side that it is not and a third opinion where i fall into that both order and chaos are equally represented in nature.

The very apex of creation as presented by different theological standpoints [religions] humans have is man, every religion paints a picture of a cosmos that almost seems to be centered towards man.

Now the topic of the discussion here is as the title reads.

Was nature made to accomodate man or is nature not only dangerous but indifferent of everything including man?

If yes give reasons and if No also state reasons, lets discuss on a high intellectual ground with as much friendliness and kindness one can entertain.

[N:B - To person/persons who would take any direction this thread might take personal [whether is pricks your belief or unbelief], there is a certain degree of emotional stability required when engaging in issues of public concern, it's either such a person learn some and not bring up childish personal tantrums into the field or better still ignore the thread]

I'll post my article on this topic after this thread

I was led here by the spirit

I really hope this will be a highly intellectual, friendly, bereft-of-any-abusive-word discussion.

On that note, I would say that Nature was made to suit man. I say this because the earth and the solar system is impeccably suited for life. Scientific research proves that a difference, even of the minutest degree, in the condition of the earth and of the solar system, would make life impossible.

Or am I in the wrong place? Is this thread only for atheists?

DoctorAlien:
I really hope this will be a highly intellectual, friendly, bereft-of-any-abusive-word discussion.

On that note, I would say that Nature was made to suit man. I say this because the earth and the solar system is impeccably suited for life. Scientific research proves that a difference, even of the minutest degree, in the condition of the earth and of the solar system, would make life impossible.

Please highlight on this smallest degrees of difference that'd ve made the solar system unhabitable...

johnydon22:


Please highlight on this smallest degrees of difference that'd made the solar system unhabitable...

Assuming the sun was even 1^oC hotter than it is now, we would all be burned up. And if the sun was colder by the same difference, we would all freeze on earth.

Same thing is applicable if the earth was even 1 metre nearer to or further away from the sun.

DoctorAlien:


Assuming the sun was even 1^oC hotter than it is now, we would all be burned up. And if the sun was colder by the same difference, we would all freeze on earth.

this is untrue sir, if it was 1° hotter that'd be majorly insignificant to the temperature on earth.

Same thing is applicable if the earth was even 1 metre nearer to or further away from the sun.

The earth is not always the same distance from the sun, there are times when it is nearest and farthests from it so again this point is also untrue brother.

At the farthest point of the earth from the sun [we call aphelion], the planet is about 152million km away from the sun.

But at the closest point [Perihelion] the earth is about 47.1million km away..

the average distance of the earth and sun is 150million km.. so the earth not only gets more than 1meter near and farther away but actually millions of meters away and near at different points and time.

johnydon22:
this is untrue sir, if it was 1° hotter that'd be majorly insignificant to the temperature on earth.

The earth is not always the same distance from the sun, there are times when it is nearest and farthests from it so again this point is also untrue brother.

At the farthest point of the earth from the sun [we call aphelion], the planet is about 152million km away from the sun.

But at the closest point [Perihelion] the earth is about 47.1million km away..

the average distance of the earth and sun is 152million km.. so the earth not only gets more than 1meter near and farther away but actually millions of meters away and near at different points and time.

We can only pray the sun doesn't even get 0.01^oC hotter.

Yes, I know about perihelion and aphelion. But do you realise that year after year, the earth's distance from the sun at aphelion has always been the same? And the same for perihelion?

johnydon22,

I admit that I hadn't rendered my statement in the best words that would portray what I had I mind.

I should have said "If the earth's orbit is expanded or reduced by even 1 metre, there would be catastrophe."

DoctorAlien:


We can only pray the sun doesn't even get 0.01^oC hotter.

actually the sun has seen a slight decrease in temperature over the years and such miniscule difference even on the increasing tilt still is insignificant to life or even the temperature of the solar system.

appearance and disappearance of sunspots are also due to change in temperature at least in the given areas - these are insignificant rise/fall therefore do not matter neither does it affect temperature or activities in the solar system..

Yes, I know about perihelion and aphelion.

so you agree it voids that point of earth getting 1meter near or farther.

But do you realise that year after year, the earth's distance from the sun at aphelion has always been the same? And the same for perihelion?

Due to the elliptical orbit of the planetary bodies - Gravity sir....

DoctorAlien:
johnydon22,

I admit that I hadn't rendered my statement in the best words that would portray what I had I mind.

I should have said "If the earth's orbit is expanded or reduced by even 1 metre, there would be catastrophe."

It won't sir such a change is miniscule and very much so insignificant - If you said something like "If the earth was moved as far as the orbit of Mars, that'd would have been better "

and such a change is not insignificant as a 1 meter drift...

As far as we know even Mars has a possibility of habouring life, Saturn's moon Titan [farther than both Mars and jupiter] not only shows sign of liquid [probably methane] but also signatures of Organic compounds vital for life - in fact it is one of the most highly likely "life spot" in the system even though it is way off the 'Goldilock zone]

so sir slight shift in the earth's orbit will have no or insignificant effect on the earth or life on it.

johnydon22:
actually the sun has seen a slight decrease in temperature over the years and such miniscule difference even on the increasing tilt still is insignificant to life or even the temperature of the solar system.

appearance and disappearance of sunspots are also due to change in temperature at least in the given areas - these are insignificant rise/fall therefore do not matter neither does it affect temperature or activities in the solar system..

so you agree it voids that point of earth getting 1meter near or farther.

Due to the elliptical orbit of the planetary bodies - Gravity sir....

Hmm. Well, I still believe there is an optimum temperature of the sun at which life is possible.

At least we agree that the distance round the earth's orbit is fixed.

Scientists are still experimenting on the ability of Mars to support life. Life has not been discovered outside earth.

DoctorAlien:


Hmm. Well, I still believe there is an optimum temperature of the sun at which life is possible.

I do not think it is wise enough to still cling on to such "belief" even when shown otherwise, that'd be intellectual dishonesty my brother...

At least we agree that the distance round the earth's orbit is fixed.

No sir very many factors also at different times affect earth's orbit that are not the Aphelion and perihelion...

- Tidal effects
-Gravitational tugs from smaller celestial objects that crosses near earth
- The orbital eccentricity change --> there are times earth's orbit become more seeming circular and also at some times more elliptical..
-Mass loss/gain of the earth.

There are many factors that contribute to this imprecise orbital dance, the orbit of the earth is neither fixed or precise but has subtle changes from time to time though most likely still goes unnoticed on a normal ground.

DoctorAlien:
Scientists are still experimenting on the ability of Mars to support life. Life has not been discovered outside earth.

We know brother...

So do you have more points to tender?

What is the magnitude of the gravitational force of attraction between the earth and the sun? Can small celestial bodies "pull" the earth any farther from the sun by the virtue of the gravitational force of attraction they can exert on the earth?

DoctorAlien:
What is the magnitude of the gravitational force of attraction between the earth and the sun? Can small celestial bodies "pull" the earth any farther from the sun by the virtue of the gravitational force of attraction they can exert on the earth?

Yes there are slight tugs from every celestial object within the gravitational horizone of another - while these slight changes may be less noticeable on the bigger body [as the earth's effect on the sun is] there is still a very subtle effect...

johnydon22:


Yes there are slight tugs from every celestial object within the gravitational horizone of another - while these slight changes may be less noticeable on the bigger body [as the earth's effect on the sun is] there is still a very subtle effect...

These "tugs" from all the celestial bodies would then tend to balance each other out, since no significant change is observed in the size of the earth's orbit. Something like an equilibrium of forces. What do you think?

DoctorAlien:


LOL. Please help me edit that word "exhibit" in my post to "exert." Thank you.

These "tugs" from all the celestial bodies would then tend to balance each other out, since no significant change is observed in the size of the earth's orbit. Something like an equilibrium of forces. What do you think?

That is the values behind the calculus in the pertubation theory but these forces surely have effect on each other which lead to subtle changes of differing magnitude.

The Orbital mechanics are under the Chaos theory

I'd like to hear more ideas [distinct ] and more points to support these ideas.

Do you think nature was made for man or is indifferent of man's existence

Donffdd, cloudgoddess, weah96, frank317, CoolUsername

Nature is relentless and unchangeable and it is indiffernt as to whether its actions and hidden reasons are understable to man or not.

Probably d most daunting task dat we face as rational animals is d contemplation of our own relative weight in d scheme ofthings. Our place in d universe is so unimaginably small dat we cannot contemplate it for so long due to our egoistic minds. Also d realization dat we may be quite random as presences on earth gives scant comfort.

ValentineMary:
This is very interesting. I stand on the opinion that nature does not have humans in mind. We are in the hand of "God" as my religious folks would say. But it is quite obvious we are at nature's mercy. Take a look at the recent hurricane Matthew. If not for the modern tech used to predict it, the catastrophe would be worse. Nature does not respect sex or race. Lightling kills thousands annually. Does that show that nature has regards for human lives let's take a look at the dinosaurs for example. How did they all die? nature killed them and many planets has gone through similar war. Showing the unjust chastisment of nature.

But if nature is not ment for us, how are we here I think the ans is obvious. Adaptation. We have developed our body molecules and physiology such that any slight escape from our atmosphere without space suit would lead to immediate death. We are dependent on earth so much, we get our oxygen, food, etc from it. We see a serene environment just as an amoeba thinks the pond is perfect for it. Right temp, salinity, pH, etc. But the amoeba adapted it's molecules and physiology to those conditionst just as we did with earth.

Brilliant!!!

My take on this issue is that Nature is just Nature, it is not evil neither is it benign.

Whatever will happen would happen when it would happen to who and what it would happen to.

Nature has no mind, or feelings, or goals, or desires...it just is but like a child playing with a piano, has lots of chaotic sounds but still limited to a range and if you wait long enough, you hear the pattern or string of sounds that make up the great chaos.

Its absurd to think nature is meant for us, when 99.99999999999999999999999999999999% of it would kill us instantly.

We are like a brief candle light in a terrible wind storm protected by a small hand known as the earth but that still doesnt diminish us because we can use our brief moment to show the way.

So i wont say Nature is chaotic or ordered, i would just say Nature is

byteHead:
Nature is relentless and unchangeable and it is indiffernt as to whether its actions and hidden reasons are understable to man or not.

Probably d most daunting task dat we face as rational animals is d contemplation of our own relative weight in d scheme ofthings. Our place in d universe is so unimaginably small dat we cannot contemplate it for so long due to our egoistic minds. Also d realization dat we may be quite random as presences on earth gives scant comfort.

What do you mean Nature is Unchangeable?

johnydon22:


What do you mean Nature is Unchangeable?

What i mean is that d entire universe follows the same laws. And these laws never change.

Your coffee left on a counter will always become cool. Gravity remains steady, never random. The speed of light remains constant. The earth rotates in 24 hours.

We occupy such a small part of the universe, and have existed for such a short time compared to the age of the universe, the earth, or even life on earth, that I'd say that it is absurd to even entertain the notion that the universe and nature were created for us. Especially when we have no evidence that the universe was created by a conscious being who had a particular purpose for creating it.

byteHead:


What i mean is that d entire universe follows the same laws. And these laws never change.

while this is true, i believe you'd be surprise just how weirdly bizzarre nature is, there are lots of surprises.

Your coffee left on a counter will always become cool. Gravity remains steady, never random.

Elaborate on the steady gravity.

The speed of light remains constant. The earth rotates in 24 hours.

I believe the earth is slowing down actually..