Much of what we believe about discipline in the church is informed by the old covenant. For instance, if you think God’s discipline entails punishment in any shape or form, you’re living in the past. You haven’t seen the cross (Is 53:5).

Think about it. If the cross was the once and final solution for sin Hebrews says it is, then you would not expect to find any scriptures in the new covenant linking sin with divine punishment. And indeed, there are none – except this one:

For those whom the Lord loves he disciplines, and he scourges every son whom he receives. (Heb 12:6, NASB)

As we saw in our last post , this may be a badly mangled New Testament quote of an Old Testament proverb. It’s like reading Martin Luther King’s I have a dream speech in Chinese and finding the last line says, “Thank God almighty, we are not free at all!” It’s jarring, it’s wrong, and it runs totally against the context.
Am I saying the Bible is wrong? No, we don’t have to go that far.

As I explained last time, my best guess is the problem was introduced during translation. I am convinced that the author of Hebrews had a profound revelation of God with-no-whip. The picture he gives us is of a good God sitting on a throne of grace offering us grace and mercy in our time of need (Heb 4:16). And when we go astray – what happens then? Does God come charging after us with a whip? No, he deals with us gently (Heb 5:2) as a loving father deals with his sons (Heb 12:. The suggestion that God metaphorically rips shreds off us with a flagellum is slanderous and ridiculous.
To help you settle this in your own mind, I want to give you
…

7 reasons why God never scourges his children

1. In the Bible, the word for scourge (mastigoō ) appears in 7 times in 7 verses. In every verse apart from Hebrews 12:6 it is associated with unjust punishment inflicted by the unjust upon the just – either Jesus (Mt 20:19, Mar 10:34, Lu 18:33, Joh 19:1) or those who follow him (Mat 10:7, 23:34). Given this context, to say that a God scourges his sons implies that God acts like the unjust, which he doesn’t.

2. The context of Hebrews 12 is being persecuted for the faith (see Hebrews 11). There is something twisted in telling a group of believers facing the threat of scourging that God is the one scourging them. The author writes to encourage them (Heb 12:3,5). Hearing that God is the one persecuting you is not encouraging. It’s discouraging. It doesn’t fit the context.

3. Nor does it make any sense. If God scourges us then the hurts of Heb 12:11 are the hurts of his scourging. But the actual hurts being experienced were the hurts of persecution,
not sickness or anything you might wrongly accuse God of giving you. Believers have always been persecuted for the gospel and sometimes that persecution takes the form of flogging (see Heb 11:36). To read Heb 12:6 as scourging is like saying, “God is punishing you for believing in him.”

4. In Biblical times, scourging was reserved for slaves and criminals, not sons and citizens. Jesus and Paul were both unjustly scourged. Paul never says, “I was scourged for my good.” Instead, he resisted scourging (Acts 22:25), as should every free man and woman.

5. Hebrews 12 says God disciplines or trains us as a father. I don’t know any father, good or bad, who scourges his kids the way the Romans scourged Jesus. It’s a metaphor that doesn’t apply at any level. God doesn’t train us with whips. He nurtures us. The Biblical picture of godly fathering is this: “And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord” (Eph 6:4, KJV). Scourging is not nurturing.

6. There was one father in the Bible who was famous for using whips and rods, and that was Solomon. We know he used the rod of correction because he tells us in Proverbs (13:24, 22:15, 23:14-15, 29:15). Solomon evidently had old-school views regarding corporal punishment yet even he didn’t whip his sons. He said whips were for horses (Prov 26:3). I’ve had people tell me they won’t respond to God unless he whips them. That’s like saying, “I’m as dumb as a horse.”

7. Jesus met plenty of people in need of correction and discipline. How many of those people did Jesus scourge? How many did he afflict with pain, sickness, trials, or suffering? Zero. If Jesus was ever going to whip someone, he might’ve whipped the Pharisees, but he didn’t. He even said the Pharisees belonged to their father the devil (Joh 8:44). If God won’t scourge the devil’s kids, he surely won’t whip his own.

The terrifying God of Hebrews

There are 303 verses in Hebrews and, in my opinion, 99.7% of them were translated into Greek more or less accurately. Why am I so worked up about one solitary verb? Because a whip-toting monster-of-a-god has been created on the basis of that one verb!

God is dangerous enough without us adding to the Bible. For those who reject his grace Hebrews describes him as a “consuming fire” (Heb 12:29), and warns that “it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” (Heb 10:31).
Am I trying to balance my words by painting God as both loving and terrifying, as though he were double-minded? No – I’m saying that a perfect God cannot coexist with imperfect man and the only way we can relate to him is through his free and perfect grace. Those who try to approach God on their own imperfect merits will find him unaccommodating and consequently terrifying.

The Hebrews of old knew this – they had seen this consuming God at the untouchable Mount Sinai when the old covenant was given. They were terrified and wouldn’t draw near. But we have not returned to Mount Sinai. We have come to Mount Zion and to Jesus the mediator of a new and better covenant (Heb 12:24).

To make sense of Hebrews, you need to understand that it sends two messages to two kinds of people.

(i) For those uncertain about the grace of God, the message is: “See to it that you don’t refuse the one who speaks” (Heb 12:25). Through the book of Hebrews God draws the ungodly to himself, urging them to abandon the sinking ship of self-sufficiency and to enter his rest.

(ii) For those who have already entered, the message is “Draw near – approach the throne of grace with confidence” (Heb 4:14).

But the ungodly won’t come in and the saint won’t draw near if they believe God is waiting for them with a whip of scourging. That is not the gospel and it is not the message of Hebrews.

https://escapetoreality.org/2013/06/18/does-god-scourge-us/

God is lovin while Sin is hurtin....when a christian leaves God and perpetrate sins,d devil wil try to mess-up his life by scourging him b4 taking his soul

I talk am

Ok

jiggaz

If Jesus died for our sins to become Christ, and wiped out every atom of adamic sins, why do "pastors" still preach sin?

And one more. Was Jesus a white man?



NB: I didnt read the entire texts

Nice

who get time to read all this thing
besides iam inside the church

Cherry picking

Seen...abeg i dey church...our pastor dey lead hot prayer now on mammy water and evil spirit...let me pray first,i dey cum back

9ce one op.check my signature nairalanders

Don't even understand

Yes... In some way he does.

Of course. But only His sons.



Hebrews 12:8 |
But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

We know were the sermons that want you to be at ease in Zion. They want to kill Godliness and godly sorrow. They don't want you to strive to enter the straight and narrow way. The make you believe the Way to the most high God can accommodate anything.

Just as it was in the days of Noah. They never believed God will destroy the world. Even when God had said, " My spirit shall not always strive with man "

We have to be very careful.

abumeinben:
jiggaz

If Jesus died for our sins to become Christ, and wiped out every atom of adamic sins, why do "pastors" still preach sin?

And one more. Was Jesus a white man?



NB: I didnt read the entire texts

Pastors preaching sin is a misplaced priority. Preaching sin does not stop sin. What it does is that it brings fake or pseudo-holinesss, the members will pretend to be Holy only in church or in the presence of their brethren, but when outside, they will commit so many atrocities.... So you see, who is fooling who?

I am vehemently against sin, sin in the life of a believer opens him up to Satan. And you know how satan wrecks havoc in people's lives who give him chance. But when a Pastor preaches the Gospel of Grace & the gift of Righteousness and No condemnation, the believer will end up living a holy life accidentally, becos when you hear of the goodness & super abundant love of God, you will not try to do anything that will hurt The One that loves you so much!!

Grace attracts sinners and bring them into the kingdom, while hell fire preaching / self righteousness sermons drives people away from the kingdom.

I am not ashamed to spread the Gospel of Grace here which is the True Gospel of Christ, it brings freedom in worshipping God. Apostle Paul was the one Christ revealed the Gospel of Grace to…It is the Gospel for the Gentiles since the Jews rejected Christ.

I know the Gospel of Grace offends self righteous / hypocrital / pharisee Christians here, but guess what? I don't care!!!!!!! The Gospel must be preached to set the captives free!! The Pharisees always get offended when Jesus teaches because they think they are perfect at keepin the Law, but Christ always brings them to their knees cos they didn't keep the whole Law, they just do cherry picking. E.g What Christ told the Rich Young Ruler that boasted about keeping the Law to gain eternal life.

But Christ always gives Grace to the so called sinners or gentiles because they acknowledge that they couldn't keep the Law and Christ imputes His righteousness to them. THE LAW CONDEMNS, GRACE ELEVATES US.
E.g What Christ told the Samaritan Woman at the well.

Whether Jesus was a white man? Well Christ is a Jew and Jews have olive skin..... Plz read the whole article, it will benefit you.

OK

jiggaz:
Pastors preaching sin is a misplaced priority. Preaching sin does not stop sin. What it does is that it brings fake or pseudo-holinesss, the members will pretend to be Holy only in church or in the presence of their brethren, but when outside, they will commit so many atrocities.... So you see, who is fooling who?

I am vehemently against sin, sin in the life of a believer opens him up to Satan. And you know how satan wrecks havoc in people's lives who give him chance. But when a Pastor preaches the Gospel of Grace & the gift of Righteousness and No condemnation, the believer will end up living a holy life accidentally, becos when you hear of the goodness & super abundant love of God, you will not try to do anything that will hurt The One that loves you so much!!

Grace attracts sinners and bring them into the kingdom, while hell fire preaching / self righteousness sermons drives people away from the kingdom.

I am not ashamed to spread the Gospel of Grace here which is the True Gospel of Christ, it brings freedom in worshipping God. Apostle Paul was the one Christ revealed the Gospel of Grace to…It is the Gospel for the Gentiles since the Jews rejected Christ.

I know the Gospel of Grace offends self righteous / hypocrital / pharisee Christians here, but guess what? I don't care!!!!!!! The Gospel must be preached to set the captives free!! The Pharisees always get offended when Jesus teaches because they think they are perfect at keepin the Law, but Christ always brings them to their knees cos they didn't keep the whole Law, they just do cherry picking. E.g What Christ told the Rich Young Ruler that boasted about keeping the Law to gain eternal life.

But Christ always gives Grace to the so called sinners or gentiles because they acknowledge that they couldn't keep the Law and Christ imputes His righteousness to them. THE LAW CONDEMNS, GRACE ELEVATES US.
E.g What Christ told the Samaritan Woman at the well.

Whether Jesus was a white man? Well Christ is a Jew and Jews have olive skin..... Plz read the whole article, it will benefit you.

Have gone through the article...

However, my main question was left unanswered. What if Christ died/paid for our sins? Why are people still tagged "sinners".

If I paid for your ticket to see a movie, after seeing the movie, would it be right to address you a debtor?

abumeinben:


Have gone through the article...

However, my main question was left unanswered. What if Christ died/paid for our sins? Why are people still tagged "sinners".

If I paid for your ticket to see a movie, after seeing the movie, would it be right to address you a debtor?

After Christ died for our sins, we still have to make up our mind to receive His sacrifice on the cross. Christ doesn't force His salvation on people. It is your choice to make.

Believers are not sinners, it is unbelievers that are sinners because they have not received Christ.

jiggaz:
After Christ died for our sins, we still have to make up our mind to receive His sacrifice on the cross. Christ doesn't force His salvation on people. It is your choice to make.

Believers are not sinners, it is unbelievers that are sinners because they have not received Christ.

So once I give my life to Christ, I "cannot" commit sins anymore?

Don't want to use "covered by grace yet"

abumeinben:


So once I give my life to Christ, I "cannot" commit sins anymore?

Don't want to use "covered by grace yet"

Unbelievers are sinners not because they commit sin but because their Adamic nature ( their spirit man ) is not regenerated by the blood of Jesus.

Believers in Christ can commit sin but they are not sinners cos their spirit man is righteous because of their Regeneration through the blood of Jesus.

Believers in Christ commiting sin is ignorance because you are coming down from such a high place which is Christ, to a low place which is the FLESH..... By commiting sin, you are opening yourself up to the devil to destroy your life but your spirit man which is the real you is saved.

Any believer that keeps on commiting sin will get the consequences of sin in this world but he is saved from eternal damnation. Sin has its consequences in this life because we are in a fallen world.

E.g A believer ( lets say a Pastor ) that commits adultery and he is caught, He will be disgraced by his members and maybe asked to leave the Church. The husband of the woman he commited the adultery with, will harm him. His wife will leave him and the shame and pain will be too much. So you can see that he brought misery to his life but he is saved from eternal damnation cos his spirit man is still one with Christ.

Christ knows all these that's why he tells us to stay away from sin, because sin hurts us in this world as believers.

jiggaz:
Unbelievers are sinners not because they commit sin but because their Adamic nature ( their spirit man ) is not regenerated by the blood of Jesus.

Believers in Christ can commit sin but they are not sinners cos their spirit man is righteous because of their Regeneration through the blood of Jesus.

Believers in Christ commiting sin is ignorance because you are coming down from such a high place which is Christ, to a low place which is the FLESH..... By commiting sin, you are opening yourself up to the devil to destroy your life but your spirit man which is the real you is saved.

Any believer that keeps on commiting sin will get the consequences of sin in this world but he is saved from eternal damnation. Sin has its consequences in this life because we are in a fallen world.

E.g A believer ( lets say a Pastor ) that commits adultery and he is caught, He will be disgraced by his members and maybe asked to leave the Church. The husband of the woman he commited the adultery with, will harm him. His wife will leave him and the shame and pain will be too much. So you can see that he brought misery to his life but he is saved from eternal damnation cos his spirit man is still one with Christ.

Christ knows all these that's why he tells us to stay away from sin, because sin hurts us in this world as believers.

Please sir, don't preach this heresy. Its false doctrine to say that if I keep on sinning as a believer, it can only destroy my body but my spirit is saved. That is a lie from the pit of hell and I pray God opens your eyes. On that day, many will say Lord Lord, but he will say I know you not, depart from me you WORKERS OF iniquity. They thought they were still saved because they were casting out devils in Jesus name, but Jesus knew them not.
Check who the bible says will end up in the lake of fire in Rev.21:8. One can be claiming "born-again", but committing those sins unconfessed, would lead him to the pit. God knows those who are his. WHo are they? The ones who depart from iniquity. Narrow is the way brother, hope you find it.

Morning

Evening....