₦airaland Forum

This is the go to question for the theist who is arguing with the non-believer, it is often said, "if you dont believe in God, why don't you go about raping and killing people". it is a very childish question but i want to turn the tables around and pose the question to theists.

Why is murder wrong?

Let me reframe it like this;

Is murder wrong because it is just wrong or is it wrong because God says its wrong?

if the former is the case, then it means God is not needed to have morality, but if you say the latter is the case, then it means morality is arbitrary(and not as objective as theists makes it sound).

So which is it?

Well in my humble opinion, as long as there is a God, murder is not wrong(yes i said it), why?, you might ask!, its follows from this simple logic:

- Everything that happens is God's plan
- God's plan is ultimately good
- Killing someone is part of God's plan which in essence is ultimately good.

If killing someone would send the person to heaven to spend an eternity with God, then why is murder wrong?, and the killer could ultimately repent before dying so everybody wins!

On the otherhand, if there was no God, then murder would be the greatest evil because it would follow that since this is the only life we have, then ending it abruptly would be the greatest pain you can inflict on someone and even yourself because the rest of your single short life would be spent behind bars.

I can already hear rebuttals to the argument saying God specifically said it in the bible that one shall not kill, but God himself killed far more people than the devil did in the bible, so drowning everyone on earth can be regarded as being Godly.

OP is a baby philosopher...

we have 3 stages in human behaviour


antecedents

behaviour itself

consequences


why cause pain?, why kill in the first place?

lol reminds me of Johnnydon22's reply to someone who didn't consider it "Genocide" when Yahweh commanded Israelites to carry out Genocide

johnydon22:
A genocide has one definition, so if a God commands it, it doesn't make it any less genocide.

You see you are even the one championing subjective morality. To you genocide is wrong but when it is being carried out as an express command of God it somehow ceases to be a genocide and becomes right?

And this sounds right to you ?

How is a genocide wrong in one instance and then at the other instance it becomes right if there is an objective moral value?

this is the same question i asked you concerning torturing children: how is torturing children right for correction and wrong for fun? is both not still same disturbing act of torture?

If genocide is objectively wrong then in what ever instances or excuses it may come with - it remains wrong.

Coining out excuses to redefine what you would agree is wrong to make it right goes further not only to reveal moral subjectivity but also dishonesty in it's application for religious ideas.

If per say the Israeli's where not allegedly under a direct command of God [the one you believe in] their actions would be very wrong and disturbing to you but here since it is directly an action based on the charges of your own concept of God [who as you recognize the compass for your morality] there was need for you to justify the action and recognize it to be right - something you obviously wouldn't normally do.

But here you actually believe some genocides are right while some are wrong...

That goes a very good way to paint out Religious morality to the readers here... because you have just shown Genocide is not wrong to you, the only difference is you need God's approval to do it..

you are arguing for is not Objective morality but only a morality that excludes every other human idea but relies only on the subjctive idea of your own god concept whose moral ideas are still in fact that of humans.

Surely enough Islamic militants and Boko haram are very right since their actions are in direct submission to the supposed will of God.

Isn't the israeli tribal deity Yahweh till one of the thousands of God concepts on earth with varying subjective moral ideas?

here effects of an action on the society, human well being or others does not matter, what matters is just do what ever god wants.

This surely should make sense to you.

that is not morality that is just sheepish conformity, and blind conformity to an authority is the greatest enemy of truth.

You have totally shown subjectivity of morality by agreeing that a genocide championed by god ceases to be a genocide and therefore not wrong

this is one of the instances when i recognize religious ideas as detrimental to human well being and survival therefore a sinister idea that deserves to be abhorred.

you've totally justified an absurd act here with God and reveres a gross abhorrence cus of religious inclination and subjectivity

My work here is done, i rest my case... Have a good one

Murder is wrong cuz it's the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

kilokeys:
OP is a baby philosopher...

we have 3 stages in human behaviour


antecedents

behaviour itself

consequences


why cause pain?, why kill in the first place?

you havent actually communicated!, what is your message here?

Richirich713:
Murder is wrong cuz it's the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

By whose's standard is it unlawful?

Richirich713:
Murder is wrong cuz it's the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.

Lol, this is the guy Johnny was replying to

consider the below scenarios

Scenario 1

if I serve Yahweh and he commands me to kill someone and I do it, is it wrong?


Scenario 2
if I serve Allah and he commands me to kill someone and I do it, is it wrong?


Scenario 3

if I serve Vishnu and he commands me to kill someone and I do it, is it wrong?

which one(s) is/are wrong and why?

hopefulLandlord:
Lol, this is the guy Johnny was replying to

consider the below scenarios

Scenario 1

if I serve Yahweh and he commands me to kill someone and I do it, is it wrong?


Scenario 2
if I serve Allah and he commands me to kill someone and I do it, is it wrong?


Scenario 3

if I serve Vishnu and he commands me to kill someone and I do it, is it wrong?

which one(s) is/are wrong and why?

It doesn't matter who u serve, what matters is who is the true God and creator nd if he is commanding u to kill someone.

I've written something like this before. It makes perfect sense why would you be specially pleading for God?? When God does it it's okay. I mean if God was absolutely moral cuz morality was absolute and the nature of "right" and "wrong" surpassed space time and existance then why the Bleep where some things a sin in the old testament and not the new testament. It is not supposed to change
Christians would come and start special pleading for God now. Brace yourselves

donnffd:
By whose's standard is it unlawful?

God

What I can deduce from this write up is that if the judge of a supreme court sentences a convict to death for example, the judge becomes a murderer?

The way people are reasoning nowwdays sha..
I can only but wonder where the world is going.

Richirich713:
God

Are you saying it is wrong because God said so?

If yes, then isnt morality subjective to God's command?, what if God commands you to kill your child like he did with abraham, would it still be wrong then?

felixomor1:
What I can deduce from this write up is that if the judge of a supreme court sentences a convict to death for example, the judge becomes a murderer?

The way people are reasoning nowwdays sha..
I can only but wonder where the world is going.

The op is not questioning God's motive behind certain things(whatever they maybe), it is asking you a question, is murder wrong because it is wrong or is it wrong because God says its wrong?

felixomor1:
What I can deduce from this write up is that if the judge of a supreme court sentences a convict to death for example, the judge becomes a murderer?

The way people are reasoning nowwdays sha..
I can only but wonder where the world is going.

But when the judge commands it's followers to

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

Kill Witches
You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

Kill Fortunetellers
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Death for Hitting Dad
Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

Death for Cursing Parents
1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)
2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

Death for Adultery
If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

Death for Fornication
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

Death to Followers of Other Religions
Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

Kill Nonbelievers
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)

Kill False Prophets
If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night
But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)

Kill Followers of Other Religions.
1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Death for Blasphemy
One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

Kill False Prophets
1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)

Infidels and Gays Should Die
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle
For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath
The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)


2) God's Murders for Stupid Reasons:

Kill Brats
From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces. (2 Kings 2:23-24 NAB)

God Kills the Curious
And he smote of the men of Beth-shemesh, because they had looked into the ark of Jehovah, he smote of the people seventy men, `and' fifty thousand men; and the people mourned, because Jehovah had smitten the people with a great slaughter. And the men of Beth-shemesh said, Who is able to stand before Jehovah, this holy God? and to whom shall he go up from us? (1Samuel 6:19-20 ASV)

Killed by a Lion
Meanwhile, the LORD instructed one of the group of prophets to say to another man, "Strike me!" But the man refused to strike the prophet. Then the prophet told him, "Because you have not obeyed the voice of the LORD, a lion will kill you as soon as you leave me." And sure enough, when he had gone, a lion attacked and killed him. (1 Kings 20:35-36 NLT)

Killing the Good Samaritan
The ark of God was placed on a new cart and taken away from the house of Abinadab on the hill. Uzzah and Ahio, sons of Abinadab guided the cart, with Ahio walking before it, while David and all the Israelites made merry before the Lord with all their strength, with singing and with citharas, harps, tambourines, sistrums, and cymbals.
When they came to the threshing floor of Nodan, Uzzah reached out his hand to the ark of God to steady it, for the oxen were making it tip. But the Lord was angry with Uzzah; God struck him on that spot, and he died there before God. (2 Samuel 6:3-7 NAB)


3) Murdering Children

Kill Sons of Sinners
Make ready to slaughter his sons for the guilt of their fathers; Lest they rise and posses the earth, and fill the breadth of the world with tyrants. (Isaiah 14:21 NAB)

God Will Kill Children
The glory of Israel will fly away like a bird, for your children will die at birth or perish in the womb or never even be conceived. Even if your children do survive to grow up, I will take them from you. It will be a terrible day when I turn away and leave you alone. I have watched Israel become as beautiful and pleasant as Tyre. But now Israel will bring out her children to be slaughtered." O LORD, what should I request for your people? I will ask for wombs that don't give birth and breasts that give no milk. The LORD says, "All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children." (Hosea 9:11-16 NLT)

Source: http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

What does that make it?

felixomor1:
What I can deduce from this write up is that if the judge of a supreme court sentences a convict to death for example, the judge becomes a murderer?

The way people are reasoning nowwdays sha..
I can only but wonder where the world is going.

*facepalm* do you know the definition of a murderer

donnffd:
The op is not questioning God's motive behind certain things(whatever they maybe), it is asking you a question, is murder wrong because it is wrong or is it wrong because God says its wrong?

Of course God says it is wrong and it resounds in our Conscience that he has given us.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

jonbellion:
*facepalm* do you know the definition of a murderer

U are indirectly insulting the OP if u dont know.

And posting unrelated irrelevant memes on a thread like this only confirms the fact that ur cerebral function is at its lowest ebb.

Very sorry.

felixomor1:
Of course God says it is wrong and it resounds in our Conscience that he has given us.

Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

so what if God says kill your child like he commanded Abraham to do or he commands you to kill the witches and infidels like he did in the old testament, would it be wrong then?

felixomor1:
U are indirectly insulting the OP if u dont know.

And posting unrelated irrelevant memes on a thread like this only confirms the fact that ur cerebral function is at its lowest ebb.

Very sorry.

lol no I'm not I'm sorry but that was actually my response. A judge is not a murderer a murder is an unjust killing.
The Abrahamic God murdered 42 children for laughing at his prophet. A judge would not sentence somebody to death for something so trivial and unreasonable. That was why your comment surprise me
To the very core it did

donnffd:
By whose's standard is it unlawful?

Definately not by any mans standard. You or any other person have no grounds to tell another what to do.

If this is the only life we have, then the best advise is that everyone do what makes them happy with their short time. It does not really matter what your perception of good or bad is.

Just do what makes you happy.

felixomor1:
U are indirectly insulting the OP if u dont know.

And posting unrelated irrelevant memes on a thread like this only confirms the fact that ur cerebral function is at its lowest ebb.

Very sorry.

lol no I'm not I'm sorry but that was actually my response. A judge is not a murderer a murder is an unjust killing.
The Abrahamic God murdered 42 children for laughing at his prophet. A judge would not sentence somebody to death for something so trivial and unreasonable. That was why your comment surprise me
To the very core it did
I know you'll say things like " he's God he gives life and takes"
Well if you say soo but you don't have to special plead for God

donnffd:
so what if God says kill your child like he commanded Abraham to do or he commands you to kill the witches and infidels like he did in the old testament, would it be wrong then?

Again, the question resounds
If a supreme court judge orders execution of a convict, is it wrong?

The answer to this question is the answer to your question.
No offence meant.

Stop giving attention to these atheists, just let them rant alone

jonbellion:
lol no I'm not I'm sorry but that was actually my response. A judge is not a murderer a murder is an unjust killing.
The Abrahamic God murdered 42 children for laughing at his prophet. A judge would not sentence somebody to death for something so trivial and unreasonable. That was why your comment surprise me
To the very core it did
I know you'll say things like " he's God he gives life and takes"
Well if you say soo but you don't have to special plead for God

if a supreme court of law judge punishes you for unjustly making mockery of law enforcement officers of a nation, is it right or wrong?

U can see u r drifting away from reality?

felixomor1:
Again, the question resounds
If a supreme court judge orders execution of a convict, is it wrong?

The answer to this question is the answer to your question.
No offence meant.

I guess noone ever told you that it is impolite to answer a question with a question...

hahn:
But when the judge commands it's followers to



What does that make it?

Sorry, u r not making any point.

If u disobey laws u pay for it. And the judge administers the punishment.

U didnt make any point by listing the laws.
Sorry!

felixomor1:
Sorry, u r not making any point.

If u disobey laws u pay for it. And the judge administers the punishment.

U didnt make any point by listing the laws.
Sorry!

Who gives the judge the right to administers punishment and by whose standard those the judge judges by?

oh wait, lemme guess your reply!

donnffd:
Who gives the judge the right to administers punishment and by whose standard those the judge judges by?

oh wait, lemme guess your reply!

Of course the standard is the government and the judiciary is an arm of the government.

So?

Be guessing.

felixomor1:
if a supreme court of law judge punishes you for unjustly making mockery of law enforcement officers of a nation, is it right or wrong?

U can see u r drifting away from reality?

lol Are you for real?? Is murder the best punishment for mockery. There are other ways to serve punishments for such a trivial matter. You certainly don't deserve to die. It is legal to curse at the police but it is simply ill advisable to do so it's like you don't know that saying "Bleep the police to an officer" is not illegal. It is simply not advisable. In democratic countries it is legal. It is legal in the United states. And even if it is not legal you don't deserve to die for it

donnffd:
Who gives the judge the right to administers punishment and by whose standard those the judge judges by?

oh wait, lemme guess your reply!

stop arguing with that guy he likes feeling asif he's making sense that's one thing I've come to observe

jonbellion:
lol Are you for real?? Is murder the best punishment for mockery. There are other ways to serve punishments for such a trivial matter. You certainly don't deserve to die. It is legal to curse at the police but it is simply ill advisable to di so.

Is it right or wrong, first decide?
Moreover was disrespecting prophets not already part of the law?

If u like break laws and cry foul when the hammer falls on ur head.

And Please where is it legal to curse at law enforcement officers?
That must be a new one. Please enlighten me.

felixomor1:
Is it right or wrong, first decide?
Moreover was disrespecting prophets not already part of the law?

If u like break laws and cry foul when the hammer falls on ur head.

And Please where is it legal to curse at law enforcement officers?
That must be a new one. Please enlighten me.

because you don't know doesn't mean it's not legal. It's just not advisable cuz it may turn out wrong. It's like you've not heard of freedom of speech oo