₦airaland Forum

skeendyke:
Simple. You are a creation. You have no say in your Creator's decision to bring you to existence. You suffer because you refuse to recognise the fact that you are not greater than your Creator and as a result you can NEVER question His decision. If you are greater than your Creator then it is most likely you don't have to ask this question.

If I got no say in my creation and yet am created with a freedom to choose , this sounds kinda funny don't you think. if God created us for his purposes, why give us the chance to walk away? Everything would have been Fairer if He had given us the choice to be created here in this earth.

Ranchhoddas:
Will this 'freewill' be present in Heaven?

Yes it will.

gwine0047:
Forgive me for misinterpreting you. Now, I wholly understand what you mean. For clarity, my thread was to understand how fair God was with his Creatures. Do we really have freedom, a pinch of it or is it all an illusion. So I believe in God ( Christian version) though I fail to accept the idea of religion.

Educate me please, how do know the idea of God was imagined? How do you know that the void created by the your assertion of the presence of UNKNOWNS isn't suitably filled by the idea you have rejected. You agree we were ignorant and I believe that man cannot stay ignorant for long - he always want to know. How can you tell that that gap wasn't accurately filled? Man needed an explanation, God gave it.

the problem with filling gaps with "god" is the intellectual dishonesty that accompanies it by necessity especially the theistic god most especially the Christian version of "god"

Man needed an explanation, God gave it.

I lean towards disagreeing with this

Man needed explanation then invented god(s) for it

this is further proven by the many number of gods that's been invented throughout different cultures and civilisations to explain things that are/wore beyond the grasp man's intellect at the time

Ogun, Amadioha, Teshub, Adad , Bel, Ishkur, Marduk, Baʿal, Hadad, Set, Eurasia,Tarhunt, Zeus, Astrape, Jupiter etc were created to explain thunder

Agwu, Ekwensu, Satani, Devil, Ogbanje etc were created to explain evil

Olorun, Olodumare, chukwu, Yahweh, Allah, Vishnu etc were created because there has to be a being in charge of everything

Orunmila etc was created by the Yoruba to explain wisdom, divination, destiny, and foresight

Babalú Ayé was created by the Yoruba to explain infectious disease and healing

Ọ̀ṣun was created by the Yoruba because to explain love, intimacy, beauty, wealth and diplomacy

see? all this leads to is creating gods everywhere and giving him/her/it whatever characteristics one deems fit



back to the dishonesty of the Christian version of god

the Christian version has characteristics that can't be proven or disproven beyond reasonable doubt

they've created and are still adding Ad hoc

"He exists outside time and space"

"He's invisible"

"He's beyond science "

"beyond time"

"outside of logic"

"He acts as he pleases"

"he may decide to heal and not to heal"

"he may show mercy and may not"

"He answers prayers favourably and may decide not to answer it favourably"

it has gotten so absurd that its safe to say their version of god doesn't exist!

I can from my living room create a god, give him the characteristics of Yahweh and no one can disprove it, does that make the god I invented real?

to illustrate this, kindly read the below with an open mind

Sagan offers a story concerning a fire-breathing
dragon that lives in his garage. When he persuades a rational, open-minded visitor to meet the dragon, the visitor remarks that they are unable to see the creature. Sagan replies that he "neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon". The visitor suggests spreading flour on the floor so that the creature's footprints might be seen, which Sagan says is a good idea, "but this dragon floats in the air". When the visitor considers using an infra-red camera to view the creature's invisible fire , Sagan explains that the fire is heatless. He continues to counter every proposed physical test with a reason why the test will not work.

Sagan concludes by asking: "Now what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true.

gwine0047:
If I got no say in my creation and yet am created with a freedom to choose , this sounds kinda funny don't you think. if God created us for his purposes, why give us the chance to walk away? Everything would have been Fairer if He had given us the choice to be created here in this earth.

The freedom here is to choose how you want to live, not if you want to live. There is no freewill choice between existence and non-existence. It is not logical. Those who are non-existent cannot make a choice. Those who exist cannot make a choice to be non-existent.

The question is what stops you from fulfilling the purpose for which you were created?

What assurances are there that there won't another coup attempt in Heaven?

skeendyke:
Yes it will.

Ranchhoddas:
What assurances are there that there won't another coup attempt in Heaven?

It is grossly impossible for the children of God who make heaven after hating the ways of Satan and have been clothed in a new flesh of Jesus Christ....it is impossible for them to sin....

The angels dwell in the presence of God since time immemorial. They still have a choice to make but they won't toe the path of Satan because they love and worship God. If, however, they rebel they will be thrown immediately to the lake of fire. This is highly unlikely because they love and serve God just as the fallen ones hate Him.

skeendyke:
It is grossly impossible for the children of God who make heaven after hating the ways of Satan and have been clothed in a new flesh of Jesus Christ....it is impossible for them to sin....

The angels dwell in the presence of God since time immemorial. They still have a choice to make but they won't toe the path of Satan because they love and worship God. If, however, they rebel they will be thrown immediately to the lake of fire. This is highly unlikely because they love and serve God just as the fallen ones hate Him.

Were Adam and Eve clothed in this flesh of Christ?

Ranchhoddas:
Were Adam and Eve clothed in this flesh of Christ?

God made Adam from the dust of the ground, not the flesh of Christ.

skeendyke:
It is grossly impossible for the children of God who make heaven after hating the ways of Satan and have been clothed in a new flesh of Jesus Christ....it is impossible for them to sin....

The angels dwell in the presence of God since time immemorial. They still have a choice to make but they won't toe the path of Satan because they love and worship God. If, however, they rebel they will be thrown immediately to the lake of fire. This is highly unlikely because they love and serve God just as the fallen ones hate Him.

Angels have rebelled before.

skeendyke:
It is grossly impossible for the children of God who make heaven after hating the ways of Satan and have been clothed in a new flesh of Jesus Christ....it is impossible for them to sin....

The angels dwell in the presence of God since time immemorial. They still have a choice to make but they won't toe the path of Satan because they love and worship God. If, however, they rebel they will be thrown immediately to the lake of fire. This is highly unlikely because they love and serve God just as the fallen ones hate Him.

This same satan also attended a gathering of the Sons of God (Job story), God did not bind and cast him, rather they discussed and had a bargain

skeendyke:
The freedom here is to choose how you want to live, not if you want to live. There is no freewill choice between existence and non-existence. It is not logical. Those who are non-existent cannot make a choice. Those who exist cannot make a choice to be non-existent.

The question is what stops you from fulfilling the purpose for which you were created?

Exactly my point, sir. But why give us a choice after creation, why not pre - creation? You said that before existence there's no existence . I think this is logical. Am just trying to point out how fair is the freedom of choice we were blessed with. For God to be completely fair we man should be given a choice before being borne into a world he knows nothing about but still has to choose a side.

hopefulLandlord:
the problem with filling gaps with "god" is the intellectual dishonesty that accompanies it by necessity especially the theistic god most especially the Christian version of "god"


I lean towards disagreeing with this

Man needed explanation then invented god(s) for it

this is further proven by the many number of gods that's been invented throughout different cultures and civilisations to explain things that are/wore beyond the grasp man's intellect at the time

Ogun, Amadioha, Teshub, Adad , Bel, Ishkur, Marduk, Baʿal, Hadad, Set, Eurasia,Tarhunt, Zeus, Astrape, Jupiter etc were created to explain thunder

Agwu, Ekwensu, Satani, Devil, Ogbanje etc were created to explain evil

Olorun, Olodumare, chukwu, Yahweh, Allah, Vishnu etc were created because there has to be a being in charge of everything

Orunmila etc was created by the Yoruba to explain wisdom, divination, destiny, and foresight

Babalú Ayé was created by the Yoruba to explain infectious disease and healing

Ọ̀ṣun was created by the Yoruba because to explain love, intimacy, beauty, wealth and diplomacy

see? all this leads to is creating gods everywhere and giving him/her/it whatever characteristics one deems fit



back to the dishonesty of the Christian version of god

the Christian version has characteristics that can't be proven or disproven beyond reasonable doubt

they've created and are still adding Ad hoc

"He exists outside time and space"

"He's invisible"

"He's beyond science "

"beyond time"

"outside of logic"

"He acts as he pleases"

"he may decide to heal and not to heal"

"he may show mercy and may not"

"He answers prayers favourably and may decide not to answer it favourably"

it has gotten so absurd that its safe to say their version of god doesn't exist!

I can from my living room create a god, give him the characteristics of Yahweh and no one can disprove it, does that make the god I invented real?

to illustrate this, kindly read the below with an open mind

Sagan offers a story concerning a fire-breathing
dragon that lives in his garage. When he persuades a rational, open-minded visitor to meet the dragon, the visitor remarks that they are unable to see the creature. Sagan replies that he "neglected to mention that she's an invisible dragon". The visitor suggests spreading flour on the floor so that the creature's footprints might be seen, which Sagan says is a good idea, "but this dragon floats in the air". When the visitor considers using an infra-red camera to view the creature's invisible fire , Sagan explains that the fire is heatless. He continues to counter every proposed physical test with a reason why the test will not work.

Sagan concludes by asking: "Now what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all? If there's no way to disprove my contention, no conceivable experiment that would count against it, what does it mean to say that my dragon exists? Your inability to invalidate my hypothesis is not at all the same thing as proving it true.

A great dissection spiced with a wonderful illustration. How would you explain some inexplicable dynamics in both humans and situations, termed Miracles, as a result of an effort of directed dialogue or belief exercise?

gwine0047:
A great dissection spiced with a wonderful illustration. How would you explain some inexplicable dynamics in both humans and situations, termed Miracles, as a result of an effort of directed dialogue or belief exercise?

miracles are simply what I call "Favourable coincidence"

these "Miracles" have been proven to happen to anyone regardless of their belief or non belief

whats regarded as The greatest miracle ever happened to someone who didn't believe in any god

most of so-called miracles brought about by talking to your invisible friend and getting results aren't convincing at all
These stories are hilariously underpowered and unconvincing to anybody who is not already favorably inclined toward the idea.
I wish I had one naira for everybody I’ve ever heard who wound up a “miracle” story that ended with a variation of “Well, you might not think that was a miracle, but I sure do!”
Obviously, none of these stories are ever verified or fact-checked before being embraced and passed along. The vast majority of miracle claims turn out to be exaggerations or mild coincidences

When their “miracle” gets discredited, people tend to get mad at the person who actually did their work for them rather than examine why they spread a false story around, much less take responsibility for spreading an untrue story!

So no, I don’t find miracle claims to be even the slightest bit compelling or credible. I find them to be the exact opposite.

And as terribly non-compelling as these miracle claims are, this constant, endless stream of debunked stories and exposed fraud attempts are all there are. There aren’t any compelling claims.

now let me tell you what a convincing miracle is

its a miracle that couldn't have happened to anyone else outside the belief system of the claimant

eg, an amputee having his/her limbs grow back

until then, all miracles can't possibly be convincing enough to a sensible sceptic