₦airaland Forum

Farmerforlife:
Please try to make your points coherently and concisely. There is no merit in bringing up arguments from hither and yon. Open other threads for other arguments.

From what I can get there...

1. Your belief or otherwise in the Quran is not the issue here. I can equally tell you not to quote the Bible, which I believe is fabricated. You asked a question of Muslims, you may expect to be answered with the Quran. We Muslims believe that is the only authentic extant Divine scripture as of now. Any further digression into this will lead me to believe that you are deliberately trying to derail your own thread, which concerns the 'Divine' origin of the blood of Jesus.

2. Quite apart from the fact that all babies are faultless, the purity of Jesus is not in dispute with Muslims, we consider all prophets and messengers to be free of wilful sin, they cannot be otherwise, you are looking for an argument that does not exist. Jesus was merely favoured to be chosen as a prophet from his birth, and was therefore faultless from that moment. All other known prophets were called in their 40s. To us, Jesus was not faultless due to his virgin birth, but his earlier calling to prophethood. Yet all prophets erred unknowingly in different ways, and sought forgiveness for their errors. In Islam, we do not believe that being faultless or free from sin means a total perfection or inerrancy. No man is perfect, and Jesus was no exception. The attempt to make him perfect was merely to justify his alleged sacrifice. It is not our habit or our way to find fault with the prophets of Allah, but even your Bible attributes certain errors to Jesus (most of which we do not believe could be possible) like the sins of falsehood (John 7:6-10 among others), racism (Mark 7:1-23 among others), false promises (Luke 21:25-33 among others), anger (Matthew 23:17 among others), even the error of cursing an out-of-season fig tree unjustly. Yet, we do not highlight these when you seek to emphasize his supposed perfection because all prophets of Allah are honoured in our sight, and such topics are unseemly to us, so we leave the floor to you to abuse our prophet (ﷺ) because we cannot engage in such satanic mudslinging.

3. If your reference to his resistance to temptation was in general, then, as I stated earlier, all prophets and messengers of Allah must of necessity, be free of disobedience to Him. Jesus' resistance to temptation was therefore nothing special. Righteous people disobey satan on a daily basis, how much less a prophet who was protected from wilful disobedience and sin by Allah Himself?

The point remains that...

1. There is nothing to show that Jesus was in any way perfect, or that his blood was so. In fact no man is perfect, and Jesus was no exception.

2. Even if we accepted that he was, there is no substance to your premise that it was due to Divine sperm which resulted in his blood. Blood does not originate in sperm. DNA tests are made using saliva, not blood, and a baby may inherit the blood group/type of either his father or his mother, depending on which gene wins out, but his blood is all his own, originating in the embryo alongside the development of the embryonic blood vessels.

Ignorance is a disease. Willful denial is a more chronic disease

Farmerforlife:
Please try to make your points coherently and concisely. There is no merit in bringing up arguments from hither and yon. Open other threads for other arguments.

From what I can get there...

1. Your belief or otherwise in the Quran is not the issue here. I can equally tell you not to quote the Bible, which I believe is fabricated. You asked a question of Muslims, you may expect to be answered with the Quran. We Muslims believe that is the only authentic extant Divine scripture as of now. Any further digression into this will lead me to believe that you are deliberately trying to derail your own thread, which concerns the 'Divine' origin of the blood of Jesus.

@Bold

Why do you muslims believe that the quran is the only authentic scriptures and the bible is not? Who else was there when the fake angel gabriel was giving mohammad the scriptures?

Answer= No one.

Yet you muslims still believe in mohammad, not that he even did any miracle to prove he came from God.

Farmerforlife:
2.Quite apart from the fact that all babies are faultless, the purity of Jesus is not in dispute with Muslims, we consider all prophets and messengers to be free of wilful sin,

@Bold

In your attempt to run away from the truth, you keep calling the quran and the hadith a liar. While you say that all babies are faultless, Look at what mohammad himself said about all babies in the hadith below


Sahih Muslim (Vol 4, pg 1261):

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (saw) as saying: The satan touches every son of Adam on the day when his mother gives birth to him with the exception of Mary and her son.

Are you telling me that the touch Satan touches all babies is a gentle and pet touch while singing lullaby?

Farmerforlife:
they cannot be otherwise, you are looking for an argument that does not exist. Jesus was merely favoured to be chosen as a prophet from his birth, and was therefore faultless from that moment. All other known prophets were called in their 40s. To us, Jesus was not faultless due to his virgin birth, but his earlier calling to prophethood. Yet all prophets erred unknowingly in different ways, and sought forgiveness for their errors. In Islam, we do not believe that being faultless or free from sin means a total perfection or inerrancy. No man is perfect, and Jesus was no exception.

The 2 bolded parts are contradicting each other.

Farmerforlife:
The attempt to make him perfect was merely to justify his alleged sacrifice. It is not our habit or our way to find fault with the prophets of Allah, but even your Bible attributes certain errors to Jesus (most of which we do not believe could be possible) like the sins of falsehood (John 7:6-10 among others), racism (Mark 7:1-23 among others), false promises (Luke 21:25-33 among others), anger (Matthew 23:17 among others), even the error of cursing an out-of-season fig tree unjustly. Yet, we do not highlight these when you seek to emphasize his supposed perfection because all prophets of Allah are honoured in our sight, and such topics are unseemly to us, so we leave the floor to you to abuse our prophet (ﷺ) because we cannot engage in such satanic mudslinging

. John 7:6-10 wasn't falsehood. He simply changed his mind the same way you would if you promised to revenge on someone but later change your mind and instead show love to the person. Luke 21;25-33 Is not false promise. Those are things to happen on his second coming. Mathew 23:17, just like the other verses, Is quoted wrongly cos i don't see anything like anger there.

Farmerforlife:
3. If your reference to his resistance to temptation was in general, then, as I stated earlier, all prophets and messengers of Allah must of necessity, be free of disobedience to Him. Jesus' resistance to temptation was therefore nothing special. Righteous people disobey satan on a daily basis, how much less a prophet who was protected from wilful disobedience and sin by Allah Himself?

Here, you say allah protected him from sin and disobedience, but above you were quick to Misquote bible verses to say Jesus sinned. It's either you are a liar or allah is the greatest of liars/decievers

Farmerforlife:
The point remains that...

1. There is nothing to show that Jesus was in any way perfect, or that his blood was so. In fact no man is perfect, and Jesus was no exception.

Can you now see how you contradict yourself? That means your talk of allah protecting him from sin is a lie or that allah failed in protecting him. What a failure.

Farmerforlife:
2. Even if we accepted that he was, there is no substance to your premise that it was due to Divine sperm which resulted in his blood. Blood does not originate in sperm. DNA tests are made using saliva, not blood, and a baby may inherit the blood group/type of either his father or his mother, depending on which gene wins out, but his blood is all his own, originating in the embryo alongside the development of the embryonic blood vessels.

But science says mothers don't pass blood to their babies in pregnancy. Pls, just accept the truth cos the more you dribble with a lie, the more you call the quran and allah BIG LIARS.

ALBAGHDADI finished you all

lagostokd:
Ignorance is a disease. Willful denial is a more chronic disease

don't mind farmerforlife. He's a great dribbler like allah the greatest of deceivers as recorded by the quran.

LifestyleTonite:
@Bold

Why do you muslims believe that the quran is the only authentic scriptures and the bible is not? Who else was there when the fake angel gabriel was giving mohammad the scriptures?

Answer= No one.

Yet you muslims still believe in mohammad, not that he even did any miracle to prove he came from God.
@Bold

Your own Christian scholars deny the authenticity of the Bible. Need I say more? Please try to read some of Bart Ehrmann's books on the Bible. He is a Doctor of Divinity and was a former priest. I do not want to go into this topic and derail this thread.

LifestyleTonite:
In your attempt to run away from the truth, you keep calling the quran and the hadith a liar. While you say that all babies are faultless, Look at what mohammad himself said about all babies in the hadith below


Sahih Muslim (Vol 4, pg 1261):

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (saw) as saying: The satan touches every son of Adam on the day when his mother gives birth to him with the exception of Mary and her son.

Are you telling me that the touch Satan touches all babies is a gentle and pet touch while singing lullaby?

Your understanding is incomplete. That Satan touches them does not mean that they are thereby sinful. Sin is defined in Islam as wilful disobedience of Allah. Babies cannot disobey Allah. Muslims do not believe in original sin.

LifestyleTonite:
The 2 bolded parts are contradicting each other.

When we are told to pay attention in English comprehension class, some people will be planning valentine parties. To better give you an understanding of the two bolded statements, I will put them for you in a simpler way. Jesus was chosen from his birth to be a prophet, and thereby protected from sin. He was not free from sin because his birth was a virgin one. Do you understand now?

LifestyleTonite:
. John 7:6-10 wasn't falsehood. He simply changed his mind the same way you would if you promised to revenge on someone but later change your mind and instead show love to the person. Luke 21;25-33 Is not false promise. Those are things to happen on his second coming. Mathew 23:17, just like the other verses, Is quoted wrongly cos i don't see anything like anger there.

John7:6-10 was a lie, whichever way you look at it. There was no indication of mind change. He said he was not going, and as soon as their backs were turned, he went... secretly. Since you believe he is god, I do not see how you can say that he did not know that he was going. In Luke 21:25-33, and various other verses, he promised to come in his kingdom before that generation was gone, or in some, while some people then living were still alive. Now, more than a hundred generations later, that promise has not been fulfilled. In Matthew, he called people fools, yet he himself had warned elsewhere that those who call people fools were in danger of hellfire, indicating that he knew that it was a sin. He likened gentiles to dogs, and that is clearly a racist remark.

LifestyleTonite:
Here, you say allah protected him from sin and disobedience, but above you were quick to Misquote bible verses to say Jesus sinned. It's either you are a liar or allah is the greatest of liars/decievers.

Can you now see how you contradict yourself? That means your talk of allah protecting him from sin is a lie or that allah failed in protecting him. What a failure.

I did not say Jesus sinned, and we do not believe so. I said the Bible did. However, Jesus, like all humans, including prophets, was not free from error. Please read well before rushing to counter what you do not understand.

LifestyleTonite:
But science says mothers don't pass blood to their babies in pregnancy. Pls, just accept the truth cos the more you dribble with a lie, the more you call the quran and allah BIG LIARS.

Neither do fathers pass blood to their babies. It is not a truth. It is self-deceit, based on no scientific ground. Typical Christian reasoning.

LifestyleTonite:
ALBAGHDADI finished you all

Console yourself. You need it constantly to keep yourself in the illogical creed that represents Christianity today.

lagostokd:
Ignorance is a disease. Willful denial is a more chronic disease

Those who resort to insults usually have no logical standing to rely upon. Search yourself.

Farmerforlife:
Your own Christian scholars deny the authenticity of the Bible. Need I say more? Please try to read some of Bart Ehrmann's books on the Bible. He is a Doctor of Divinity and was a former priest. I do not want to go into this topic and derail this thread.

Just cos some nonentity made a claim doesn't mean it's actually true. I have tonnes of ex islamic people and scholars who have abandoned the quran for its lies. Will you agree that the quran is a liar if i mention their name?

Farmerforlife:
Your understanding is incomplete. That Satan touches them does not mean that they are thereby sinful. Sin is defined in Islam as wilful disobedience of Allah. Babies cannot disobey Allah. Muslims do not believe in original sin.

Then what is the significance of satan's touch?

Farmerforlife:
When we are told to pay attention in English comprehension class, some people will be planning valentine parties. To better give you an understanding of the two bolded statements, I will put them for you in a simpler way. Jesus was chosen from his birth to be a prophet, and thereby protected from sin. He was not free from sin because his birth was a virgin one. Do you understand now?

Then pls, what is the essence of the virgin birth? Don't tell me it was for a sign, cos no one asides Joseph and Mary knew of his mother's virginity. And do pls tell me the sign allah did for mohammad. And pls don't tell me it's terrorism, pedophilia, rape, robbery, lying, slavery etc

Farmerforlife:
John7:6-10 was a lie, whichever way you look at it. There was no indication of mind change. He said he was not going, and as soon as their backs were turned, he went... secretly. Since you believe he is god, I do not see how you can say that he did not know that he was going. In Luke 21:25-33, and various other verses, he promised to come in his kingdom before that generation was gone, or in some, while some people then living were still alive. Now, more than a hundred generations later, that promise has not been fulfilled. In Matthew, he called people fools, yet he himself had warned elsewhere that those who call people fools were in danger of hellfire, indicating that he knew that it was a sin.He likened gentiles to dogs, and that is clearly a racist remark.

He wasn't speaking of the generation he was talking to at that moment. The "this generation" he was speaking of is the generation that will experience the signs in the sun and moon which is yet to come.

@bold He was speaking in proverbs. Only a a malicious person like you will take proverbs in their literal for

Farmerforlife:
I did not say Jesus sinned, and we do not believe so. I said the Bible did. However, Jesus, like all humans, including prophets, was not free from error. Please read well before rushing to counter what you do not understand.

The bible didn't say he sinned. You are the one who have chosen to believe falsely those verses.

Farmerforlife:
Neither do fathers pass blood to their babies. It is not a truth. It is self-deceit, based on no scientific ground. Typical Christian reasoning.



Console yourself. You need it constantly to keep yourself in the illogical creed that represents Christianity today.

sperm becomes embryo that develops blood.
Sperm comes from the father.
Hence Father gave the blood.
Or did blood pass into the child through a funnel from nowhere?

Farmerforlife:
Those who resort to insults usually have no logical standing to rely upon. Search yourself.

There's no point reasoning with you logically based on your antecedent

LifestyleTonite:
Just cos some nonentity made a claim doesn't mean it's actually true. I have tonnes of ex islamic people and scholars who have abandoned the quran for its lies. Will you agree that the quran is a liar if i mention their name?

Produce their names, let us examine their credentials. Dr Bart Ehrmann is world reknowned as a Bible scholar and authority. Here are his credentials...

http://www.bartdehrman.com/curriculum-vitae/

And there are many more such scholars including those who are involved in printing the different Bible variants, who state that the Bible is not certain in its authorship or historicity.

LifestyleTonite:
Then what is the significance of satan's touch?

The scholars have taken it to mean that it shows us Satan's presence and intention to try his best to misguide.

LifestyleTonite:
Then pls, what is the essence of the virgin birth? Don't tell me it was for a sign, cos no one asides Joseph and Mary knew of his mother's virginity. And do pls tell me the sign allah did for mohammad. And pls don't tell me it's terrorism, pedophilia, rape, robbery, lying, slavery etc

It was a sign. She was not married to anyone called Joseph at the time, nor engaged to him, nor do we know if she ever was... the Quran is silent on that. The whole community knew of her virginity when he was born, and the Quran says that Jesus spoke in his infancy, declaring his prophethood. Therefore, all these were signs to prove that he was a messenger of Allah. I have said this earlier, please read through earlier comments before asking repeated questions.

The prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) also showed many signs of his prophethood, many more in fact than were reported about Jesus. However, these were signs for those who saw them in his time, and to dwell on these signs is neither here nor there. Perhaps you may find sites on the internet that enumerate the miracles of the prophet Muhammad (ﷺ). From the tone of your question, I can see that you do not really want to know, and I am not one to waste my time. In any case, Islam does not emphasize miracle working as a branch of knowledge to drool over like christians do. This is because, in Islam, we acknowledge that relying on 'miracles' alone as proof of righteousness, will open the doors to fakes and charlatans who will deceive the gullible; like your pastors do; into believing that they are 'spirit filled'.

LifestyleTonite:
He wasn't speaking of the generation he was talking to at that moment. The "this generation" he was speaking of is the generation that will experience the signs in the sun and moon which is yet to come.

In that case, he would have said 'that generation', not 'this one'. In fact, the context of the verse does not support your argument...

<Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place…>
(Mark 13:26-30)

See what I mean?
Also, he clarified his meaning in another verse by saying...

<For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.>
(Matthew 16: 27, 28)

Are there some who were standing there on that day that are still alive today, and would still be alive when he comes? Why are they hiding and where?

LifestyleTonite:
@bold He was speaking in proverbs. Only a a malicious person like you will take proverbs in their literal for
The bible didn't say he sinned. You are the one who have chosen to believe falsely those verses.

I presume he could have used a less insulting proverb if he had wanted to. That proverb was in pretty bad taste.
If I said that I wanted to donate in charity to the IDPs in Borno, and I insisted on only the Muslim ones, saying that the Christian refugees should not be included, because what is meant for the children should not be given to the 'dogs'. Would you be so forgiving and consider it just a proverb? Would CAN? This is just one example of the double standards that Christians tend to ignorantly indulge in. There is ample evidence from the Bible that Jesus did favour the Jews. It can only be interpreted as racism. Of course, I do not believe anything that the Bible says, really, I am just quoting it to you, because obviously you do, and it is you who are trying to showcase his 'perfection' whereas your Bible implies otherwise.

LifestyleTonite:
sperm becomes embryo that develops blood.
Sperm comes from the father.
Hence Father gave the blood.
Or did blood pass into the child through a funnel from nowhere?

Please leave the science to scientists. You are totally over your head here. I provided a link elsewhere. Go read it, study a few years of embryology, or a course that incorporates it, then come back and discuss this issue. Even your oga who opened this baseless thread has seen the light in that area.

lagostokd:
There's no point reasoning with you logically based on your antecedent

To rephrase your statement, I take it to mean that you have no logical points that would work as an argument. You see, this is why I do not often engage Christians in debate. They are very much trained to doublethink... one standard of interpretation for themselves, another for others. Also, they are too hate-filled to be able to reson objectively when it comes to opposing arguments against their cherished beliefs.

But thank you for your time, anyway.

Farmerforlife:
To rephrase your statement, I take it to mean that you have no logical points that would work as an argument. You see, this is why I do not often engage Christians in debate. They are very much trained to doublethink... one standard of interpretation for themselves, another for others. Also, they are too hate-filled to be able to reson objectively when it comes to opposing arguments against their cherished beliefs.

But thank you for your time, anyway.

Just go through what you wrote then you'll see why it's a waste of time reasoning with you logically

malvisguy212:
very funny, are you sure you are reading the quran properly ? John was confirming the word which is to come and you are saying , no, john is the word ? God gave him good news of a son, who came to confirm a word from God, in other word, the purpose of john coming into this world is to confirm a word (jesus) from allah. This is exactly what the bible say, john was to bear witness of the word,he was not the word. you seriously need someone to interprete that verse for you.

Adam sin, but jesus is sinless, how can adam be greater ? Adam was the first man, their is no way he could have had a earthly parent. But jesus came to this world when God creation are in existence, why will God interrupt the proccess of pro creation in other for jesus to be born ? What is the purpose of the virgin birth ? While will the quran attribute all this title to jesus without given us reason ? If you dont know the father of jesus, you do not know the true God. Good night.

Good. Happy weekend. Am learning. Hmmm but why are you using a small later j for Jesus? No offence pls. Thanks.

From The Holy Spirit. QED!!!

Farmerforlife:
Produce their names, let us examine their credentials. Dr Bart Ehrmann is world reknowned as a Bible scholar and authority. Here are his credentials...

http://www.bartdehrman.com/curriculum-vitae/

And there are many more such scholars including those who are involved in printing the different Bible variants, who state that the Bible is not certain in its authorship or historicity.

anybody could come with his personal interpretation and that doesnt make his theory correct even if he is an authority

Farmerforlife:
The scholars have taken it to mean that it shows us Satan's presence and intention to try his best to misguide.

since your prophet taught you there is no "original sin" which is not in line with Christianity or Judaism there is no point arguing further

Farmerforlife:
It was a sign. She was not married to anyone called Joseph at the time, nor engaged to him, nor do we know if she ever was... the Quran is silent on that. The whole community knew of her virginity when he was born, and the Quran says that Jesus spoke in his infancy, declaring his prophethood. Therefore, all these were signs to prove that he was a messenger of Allah. I have said this earlier, please read through earlier comments before asking repeated questions.

funny, and we should believe same quran that refers to Mary as the "third person" of the Trinity? im also curious to know why the quran refers to God as "We" rather than "I"...and if you could show the muddy spring where the sun goes at night i would be very glad

Farmerforlife:
The prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) also showed many signs of his prophethood, many more in fact than were reported about Jesus. However, these were signs for those who saw them in his time, and to dwell on these signs is neither here nor there. Perhaps you may find sites on the internet that enumerate the miracles of the prophet Muhammad (ﷺ). From the tone of your question, I can see that you do not really want to know, and I am not one to waste my time. In any case, Islam does not emphasize miracle working as a branch of knowledge to drool over like christians do. This is because, in Islam, we acknowledge that relying on 'miracles' alone as proof of righteousness, will open the doors to fakes and charlatans who will deceive the gullible; like your pastors do; into believing that they are 'spirit filled'.

yea like splitting the moon? Moses divided the red sea so...someone could definitely split the moon and the world wouldnt notice.

Farmerforlife:
In that case, he would have said 'that generation', not 'this one'. In fact, the context of the verse does not support your argument...

<Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door. Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place…>
(Mark 13:26-30)

See what I mean?
Also, he clarified his meaning in another verse by saying...

<For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.>
(Matthew 16: 27, 28)

Are there some who were standing there on that day that are still alive today, and would still be alive when he comes? Why are they hiding and where?

the procephy is a single prophecy that spreads accross different generations and a part of it has come to pass already like the conquer of jerusalem and enslaving of the Jews and as part of a whole can be said to have been fulfilled otherwise you would have to go back to Genesis and agree with the old serpent..."you will not surely die"...and as for "changing His mind" about going to the Feast He refused to go WITH His brethren and didnt want them to know about it to avoid attention and getting killed before His hour and thats all the passage says, if you choose to call Him a liar thats your problem.

Farmerforlife:
I presume he could have used a less insulting proverb if he had wanted to. That proverb was in pretty bad taste.
If I said that I wanted to donate in charity to the IDPs in Borno, and I insisted on only the Muslim ones, saying that the Christian refugees should not be included, because what is meant for the children should not be given to the 'dogs'. Would you be so forgiving and consider it just a proverb? Would CAN? This is just one example of the double standards that Christians tend to ignorantly indulge in. There is ample evidence from the Bible that Jesus did favour the Jews. It can only be interpreted as racism. Of course, I do not believe anything that the Bible says, really, I am just quoting it to you, because obviously you do, and it is you who are trying to showcase his 'perfection' whereas your Bible implies otherwise.

Yea he tried to give the samaritan woman enough reasons why she should abandon her request but she persisted and her daughter got healed, when God wanted to interact with man He chose the Jews and left the "gentiles" to continue in ignorance, you can as well call God a "racist" thats your problem.

Farmerforlife:
Please leave the science to scientists. You are totally over your head here. I provided a link elsewhere. Go read it, study a few years of embryology, or a course that incorporates it, then come back and discuss this issue. Even your oga who opened this baseless thread has seen the light in that area.

yea some of us can be misguided atimes but it doesnt take away the fact Jesus Christ is the Son of God and you can show me how the Scriptures written several centuries before Jesus Christ was born became corrupted by Christians