LogoDWhiz:
I think paul is trying to use metaphor, if we as christians who are meant to be christlike keep sinning, we embarass him, but that doesnt mean we are not saved or we crucify him again. Jhn 10:28 nd rom 8:38-39 helps us understand that once we are saved, we are saved. No double salvation. Lastly, Rom 11:29 helps us understand that God's gift nd calling are without repentance. We get the gift at the point of salvation. We should endeavour to come into the reality of our inheritance in christ.

Willzkid:

I know your mind is made up on what you believe, but would you mind reading Romans 14 in context.
There Paul refers to recent converts from judaism and other religions who were weak in faith, people who still follow some non-essential belief system. I.e. honour certain days, forbid some food e.t.c. In our day those will be people like new Muslim converts who still forbid pork, or a Jew who still spots a large beard. Paul's admonition was not to criticize these people for still holding on to their beliefs as they were not salvafic (i.e relating to salvation). These were the people who Paul said were accountable before God.
To the point being made, the Bible is replete with instances of men of God being held accountable. Paul rebuked Peter, he called out Demas, advised Timothy to rebuke defaulting elders (with strong proof though).
Let's even go by the analogy of a wounded soldier. The place of wounded soldiers in battles is not in the frontlines, but in the infirmary where they can recover before getting back to battle. In the same light when Pastors stumble they should temporarily be allowed to go through recovery I.e. repentance and restoration. That way the army is not compromised or put in danger, and the integrity of the body of Christ is protected.
My dear sister (I assume you are female), do not think I am one to condemn men of God, that is left to God, but we cannot cheer on people when they are known to be in the wrong. We must hold the clergy to account when they do wrong but we must do it in love. Christ commended the Church of Ephesus for holding their clergy accountable (Rev 2:2). Sycomphancy hurts the body of Christ today as it makes men of God above board. And this is just as bad as being judgmental

Sammy07:



@ bolded,,,, your evidence

analice107:


Really? When you are saved you are saved? Was Judah Iscariot saved?

The disciples were not saved until Jesus died. The work of salvation was completed on the cross.. y
You can't be saved pre-ressurection.

When The Master gave them power to heal the sick, cast out demons, did he give to him too? When he sold Jesus off just like many of us are doing now, was he still saved?

He was never saved.

The gift of God is without repentance, means that, when God gives anyone a 'talent', he doesn't take back. Many people are talented with good voices to sing and give glory to Jehovah, but they are out there misusing their talents, God won't take away their good voice because they turn away from Him.

I do hope you know what the gift of God refers to. It is not limited to talents. Start from verse 26 and you will see that it is talking about those who are believers.. These gifts also include the gifts of the spirit.

this what Rom 11:29 says. Its not talking about salvation.

Read from verse 26

Rom 11: 29 you quoted here is taken out of context, it doesn't come here.


The Holy Spirit through Apostle Paul is addressing believers who are saved but Carnal. They are saved but remain babes. They still indulge in sin WILLFULLY. THEY HAVE DISREGARD FOR THE THINGS OF GOD. WHEN UNBELIEVERS ARE CASTING ASPERSIONS ON CHRIST, THEY JOIN THEM.

Right here, they join atheists to insult Christ by insulting his servants.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. in 1 part you accept they are babes and are ignorant. and yet you still accuse them due to their ignorance.. My beloved, as a Christian you are different from unbelievers, you might be living a life of ignorance but you are a child of God. You work under grace. You are saved once and for all. When you live a life of ignorance and you do what unbelievers do, you are not crucifying Jesus again because he can only be crucified once. That's why paul prayed this prayer in Eph 1:17-19

When Jesus appeared to Saul who became Paul, he said to him "Why are you persecuting ME?" He didn't say, why are you persecuting Christians.

When you persecute Christians, you are persecuting Christ. And, Apostles says that, when we do that, we are crucifying Christ again.


Interpret it however you like, keep at your schemes, when we meet Christ, all shall be made clearer.

analice107:

No dear, am not cheering those who are wrong, but my stand is, before you declare them wrong, let them be wrong indeed, not because someone says they are wrong.

Facts are different from the Truth. I wait for the truth, not facts, for facts can be doctored but Truth can not.

Yes Paul rebuked Peter, but was it done in the Amphitheatre of the Ephesians or in the presence of other believers so that other believer will learn?

What will we achieve joining with the Heathens to cast stones on our own? Persecution shd come from the Heathens not the fold. When we turn on each other, who wins? Satan.


My perspective of a wounded Soldier perhaps is different from yours.

My wounded soldier is the one who takes a hit and falls right there in the battle field, but instead of his fellow Comrades pulling him to safety first before analyzing whether he compromised himself or not, but leaves him there to die.

Christians troop to the pastors when Challenged, we offload stuff to them, they counsel us and keep our dirt, but when they slip and fall we organize and call a party, call the enemy who is instrumental to his falling to join us and celebrate his fall.

When you slipped and fell into Adultery, you snuck into his office and cried, when he fell into the same adultery, you call a brass band to sing his downfall. Weldone.


Listen, am not an advocate for sin, but these men of God are first is all men, they are not God of men. The best of every man will still be a man in his very best. Nothing else. They reason we make such fuss about their fall maybe because, we place them far higher than we shd. We may have made them gods instead of fallible men that they are.

They are not gods but men. They are challenged like any of us. Their challenges surpasses ours as a matter of fact. We cry to them, who do they cry to?
They are not different from me, the difference is the office they hold.


The power that saved them is the same that saved me.

Jesus didn't die for them fully and died for me partially.

Salvation is not in measures, it's equal. What they require to make heaven is exactly what i require to make heaven.

Let's pray for them more than we cast them down.

When the stones come, they land on them, hardly on us. "Strike the Shepherd", the weak is the target.

What i see in this whole thing is that, Most Christians or so called Christians are not interested in the souls Christ died for, whether Pope, priest, Pastors and laymen. If we are, we'll consider the effects of our actions or what we say and what that will do to the kids in the fold.

Pastor gets careless and falls, the brethren calls for a party and starts dancing his downfall, WHAT HAPPENS TO THE WEAK? NO ONE CARES.


WHEN YOU STAND WITH YOUR STRONG ARGUMENTS AGAINST THE ONE IN ERROR, BE SURE TO BE RIGHT.

When David fell into Adultery, Prophet Nathan Knew about it, but he never called the council of Prophets to call for the neck of David, he waited until Jehovah 'To whom David sinned against to instruct him before he went to rebuke David.


Is stand with the weak souls, and i think you should too, because we have a common interest, CHRIST.
Happy resurrection. i love you.

Willzkid:


Now that I see your stand, I agree totally with you

My stance however is based on the fact that there is a seeming lack of accountability among our contemporary men of God. I am not for vilifying them but when they are in the wrong they should be urged in love to step aside for the integrity of the faith and for us to remain blameless in the sight of the world. whoever rejoices in the fall of another is clearly not walking in love for love does not rejoice in iniquity. When writing about people who fell out of faith, Paul always wrote with grief not glee yet he wrote and with manifest love.
We both have to agree that a lot of idolization goes on with men of God today. This makes accountability even more difficult.
It is even a more difficult position to be in when the lives of others is directly negatively affected by the indiscretion of a man of God, as it was with men of God who denied molesting young boys when they actually did. Think of new converts whose faith are being shaken (I guess that is why Paul had to rebuke Peter, well as you alluded to in the midst of believers). Also, think of the families of those being hurt. If you are a member of such a family, it would definitely hurt you to see that instead of that man of God being disciplined he is even adored the more.
You know, one of the reasons why the early Christians made such impact was because of there firm stance on discipline, blamelessness before the world and truth spoken in love. The current church system makes all these more difficult because it seems to be built around single charismatic leaders.
I have a lot to say my sister, but as you advised it is better not to do that in a public. I appreciate your discretion and I hope you took time to study Romans 14 again?
Have a great day beloved