₦airaland Forum

Acidosis:
Really? So why do we share one constitution?


Why can't I kill and get away with it or burst a butt in Nigeria because it aligns with my morals?

Why can't I take an olosho to an hotel in Dubai?

Why can't I smoke Marijuana in Indonesia?


Why do morally bankrupt Nigerians find it hard to cope in these countries?

Morality is based upon certain doctrines. You cannot tell a kid to avoid stealing simply because someone somewhere would be hurt. He should also know that the fellow whose property was stolen could get him jailed for 20 years. That's the reason our schools teach Religious study, Social study and Civic studies. If he's a Christian, he should also know that God forbids stealing. Trying to explain why God forbids stealing is just a crazy idea because even if your argument is correct, it cannot change what has been written over 2000 years ago.

Trudax:
What books have been used for years? The Bible? The Quran? And you think they have been effective? Let's examine this claim shall we.

Human beings possess something called empathy. Empathy is the ability to put yourself in the shoes of others. It's the ability to understand another person's suffering and feel it as if you were them. Empathy allows humans to consider the circumstances their actions would have on another individual before committing such action. So the higher the empathy a person has, the less likely he would commit a crime against another person. Empathy is what regulates moral actions, not texts.

Every moral obligation that involves the consequences of our actions that the bible prohibits, like stealing, killing, etc, humans by dint of empathy already know that this is wrong. Anyone who needs a book to tell them that such kinds of actions are wrong, has no empathy. And only psychopaths fall within this category. So I can rightly say that the bible is a reinforcer or reminder of moral values that we already acknowledge.

That aside, the bible also espouses so called moral values that anyone living today would consider as morally reprehensible. Such as endorsing slavery, subjugation and marginalization of women and sanctioning of genocides and some of the other horrifying practices. Now no 21st century person would abide by these laid our codes. Why is it so? Because we have a more nourished framework for empathy. If empathy and our developed notions about the value amd sactity of human life can lead us in a progressively moral direction than the bible could, how then is the bible reliable as a moral foundation?

Also, you claim the bible has worked until recently. Please when exactly is recently?

I am of the opinion that one doesn't necessarily need the bible to acknowledge the good moral values it espouses. All one needs is empathy and common sense. And contrary to your opinion, the bible didn't originate moral values. Moral values precede the bible.

Finally, if the bible actually is an efficient mechanism to instill moral values in people, then Nigeria, given how religious it is, should be among the most moral countries. But the opposite is the case. Nigeria despite all the Bible thumping is corrupt and morally decadent. And quite remarkably, countries that aren't religious, that don't use the bible to instill moral values in their children, countries like Denmark and Sweden, are the most peaceful and moral countries in the world. Why is this so? The answer is obvious. There are alternative ways to raise kids to be moral that are more effective and efficient that using the bible. What the bible-style moral education does is create moral sheep. People who are coerced into adopting moral values by threats of hell and promise of heavenly rewards.

The bible-style morality thrives on selfishness and fear. It tells you to do good for selfish reasons. It tells you to do good for personal rewards in heaven and the avoidance of hell. This in my opinion is not only counter productive but it also stifles empathy.

Children should be taught virtues of compassion and empathy, not fear and blind submission.

Mindfulness:
It is ineffective. The Nigerian society shows it best. Religious people everywhere and yet fantastically corrupt.

lovelygurl:
Wait, I think you are mixing things up. You can't? Of course you can! Who is stopping you? Just expect to be chilling in prison. Well depending on the country you are.

In my school there's a class for atheist. What do you tell those?

Acidosis:
So, you agree that the concept of morality is country-dependent and those countries shaped their standards upon certain religious doctrines?



Since atheists are fond of attacking religious people, I would expect them to oppose everything the Bible commanded. E.g., I expect them to promote ga.y sex, adultery, stealing, murder, etc. I would expect the atheist teachers to sleep with the students.

And BTW, by religious people, I mean Christians. We all know they won't dare attack Islamic teachings for obvious reasons.

kennygee:
Why?

lovelygurl:
Yes I do. The morality of a COUNTRY = the defintion of morality of most people living in the specific country. It doesn't speak for everyone.

You keep saying morality of certain religious doctrines. Are you telling me that every Christian, Muslim or Buddhist etc is a saint who follows his/her religion doctrines. Especially when in fact most wars fought in history were BECAUSE of religion OR hid behind "religion". Or wait what about the CATHOLIC church and it's view about gay marriages. When the white man came to colonise Africa, do you think he came in peace and your fore fathers all wanted to leave their religion behind to accept that of another. Before atheism people didn't steal, murder etc? Why are the most religious countries the most DANGEROUS?
Why is that although Nigeria is one of the most religious country in the world YET one of the most dangerous, criminals everywhere even pastors and leaders. There's even an AWARD for the best pastor


How are you as a christian better than an atheist.

Morality has something to do with conscience. If a baby slaps another baby and he starts crying, do you think the 1st baby won't know what he did was wrong? When you do something bad, don't you feel bad, guilty? Irrespective of religion?

You as a Christian is judging Atheists from your write up even though your Bible says not to judge others. Didn't you learn those morals from the Bible? Isn't that against your religion's doctrines?

Acidosis:
I never said religious people practice their religion 100%. We are all hypocrites. Some of you that support ga.y marriage wouldn't even kiss individuals of same sex.

The average human is a hypocrite; every human being is first a hypocrite before embracing religion or atheism.

Oluwaseun Osewa is Nairaland number 1 atheist but he's not even bold enough to remove the "Oluwa" (God) on his first name. That makes him a hypocrite.

You guys are fond of accusing religious people of hypocrisy.

In any case, we have both come to terms that the religious inclination of the majority in any locality will shape the societal standard of morality.

Acidosis:
And last time I checked, the largest part of the country is dominated by Muslims, so I don't understand why Bible, which many don't even have or read, could be a reason why we have remained backward.

Trudax:
What books have been used for years? The Bible? The Quran? And you think they have been effective? Let's examine this claim shall we.

Human beings possess something called empathy. Empathy is the ability to put yourself in the shoes of others. It's the ability to understand another person's suffering and feel it as if you were them. Empathy allows humans to consider the circumstances their actions would have on another individual before committing such action. So the higher the empathy a person has, the less likely he would commit a crime against another person. Empathy is what regulates moral actions, not texts.

Every moral obligation that involves the consequences of our actions that the bible prohibits, like stealing, killing, etc, humans by dint of empathy already know that this is wrong. Anyone who needs a book to tell them that such kinds of actions are wrong, has no empathy. And only psychopaths fall within this category. So I can rightly say that the bible is a reinforcer or reminder of moral values that we already acknowledge.

That aside, the bible also espouses so called moral values that anyone living today would consider as morally reprehensible. Such as endorsing slavery, subjugation and marginalization of women and sanctioning of genocides and some of the other horrifying practices. Now no 21st century person would abide by these laid our codes. Why is it so? Because we have a more nourished framework for empathy. If empathy and our developed notions about the value amd sactity of human life can lead us in a progressively moral direction than the bible could, how then is the bible reliable as a moral foundation?

Also, you claim the bible has worked until recently. Please when exactly is recently?

I am of the opinion that one doesn't necessarily need the bible to acknowledge the good moral values it espouses. All one needs is empathy and common sense. And contrary to your opinion, the bible didn't originate moral values. Moral values precede the bible.

Finally, if the bible actually is an efficient mechanism to instill moral values in people, then Nigeria, given how religious it is, should be among the most moral countries. But the opposite is the case. Nigeria despite all the Bible thumping is corrupt and morally decadent. And quite remarkably, countries that aren't religious, that don't use the bible to instill moral values in their children, countries like Denmark and Sweden, are the most peaceful and moral countries in the world. Why is this so? The answer is obvious. There are alternative ways to raise kids to be moral that are more effective and efficient that using the bible. What the bible-style moral education does is create moral sheep. People who are coerced into adopting moral values by threats of hell and promise of heavenly rewards.

The bible-style morality thrives on selfishness and fear. It tells you to do good for selfish reasons. It tells you to do good for personal rewards in heaven and the avoidance of hell. This in my opinion is not only counter productive but it also stifles empathy.

Children should be taught virtues of compassion and empathy, not fear and blind submission.

Trudax:
Where did I say I was an atheist? Why are you people in this country so immune to civil discourse?

I am not opposing anyone's choice to train their kids in whatsoever way they feel is best. All I am doing is stating my opinion on an important issue with the hope of having constructive, civil discussions about it, with the possibility of changing my mind if compelling arguments are put forth against mine. But what do I get? Sentimental comments that don't even address the points I raised. What the heck is wrong with people in this part of the world?

Why are your views so insulated from appraisal? So what you are essentially saying is that no one's views on issues should be questioned and we should all just live our lives according to whatever beliefs we have and never question them? How would a society move forward if this is the approach people have towards ideas and beliefs?

I am not infringing on your freedom of choice. I am only exercising my freedom of thought and expression, in a civil way. I am not pointing a gun at you and telling to stop using the Bible as a moral foundation for your children. I am only asking you to question it. Questioning our beliefs and ideas is the only way we can grow intellectually. Dogmatism and fundamentalism has never helped anyone.

Trudax:
I am not questioning the validity of anyone's religious beliefs, I am just examining the act of using the bible as a guide to instill moral values in a child through reading the texts to the child and allowing the child access to it.

I don't think the bible is the best foundation for developing a child's morality. Like I said in my thread title, I think it's dangerously harmful.

Now I am not saying the bible isn't an efficient mechanism to imbue good moral values in a child, I am just saying it's not the best and it's also not the most efficient.

First of all, the bible is very instructive. It dishes out morality on the table of transcendent authority. It tells you that you must do something because god wants you to. This is also what parents tell their kids. They tell them not to steal or lie because god forbids them to lie. I believe it's more effective when a child does something because he understands the reason for doing that thing, than when he does that thing because he's been commanded by an invincible being not to do that thing.

Secondly, I think introducing a child to the notion of hell is terribly bad. This could have devastatingly harmful effects on the mind of the child. Imagine the mental trauma a child could go through when he contemplates the possibility of going to hell for committing even the smallest of crimes.

Thirdly, the bible is replete with stories that purport to espouse moral values, but actually convey the opposite of progressive moral values.
Example is the story of Abraham and Isaac. What moral value does this convey besides the ethics of committing murder? How about the story of Lot's wife? I don't see what else it can teach a child besides imbuing the child with a maddening amount of fear and crippling submission to every ordinance of God, despite what those ordinances are.

Finally, in my opinion exposing children to all the death and killing in the bible, at a young age, can have devastatingly bad effects on their mental and moral growth.

shaybebaby:
I suppose you wrote that line for Cameron.

Trudax:
Okay, I think it's official. I know there are various kinds of intelligence, but any intelligence that involves being able to think independently and objectively, examine ideas critical and extrapolate valid conclusions from them, and being open-minded, on the average, black people are inferior to other races in this aspect. This thread substantiates this fact.

If I post this exact same question on a forum like reddit, the kind of responses I will get will be the opposite of what I am receiving here.

For God sake I just posited my opinion elaborately and asked for it to be challenged in a civil way. I even stated explicitly that I was open to have my mind changed. Why am I getting ad hominem attacks instead?

Trudax:
I am not questioning the validity of anyone's religious beliefs, I am just examining the act of using the bible as a guide to instill moral values in a child through reading the texts to the child and allowing the child access to it.

I don't think the bible is the best foundation for developing a child's morality. Like I said in my thread title, I think it's dangerously harmful.

Now I am not saying the bible isn't an efficient mechanism to imbue good moral values in a child, I am just saying it's not the best and it's also not the most efficient.

First of all, the bible is very instructive. It dishes out morality on the table of transcendent authority. It tells you that you must do something because god wants you to. This is also what parents tell their kids. They tell them not to steal or lie because god forbids them to lie. I believe it's more effective when a child does something because he understands the reason for doing that thing, than when he does that thing because he's been commanded by an invincible being not to do that thing.

Secondly, I think introducing a child to the notion of hell is terribly bad. This could have devastatingly harmful effects on the mind of the child. Imagine the mental trauma a child could go through when he contemplates the possibility of going to hell for committing even the smallest of crimes.

Thirdly, the bible is replete with stories that purport to espouse moral values, but actually convey the opposite of progressive moral values.
Example is the story of Abraham and Isaac. What moral value does this convey besides the ethics of committing murder? How about the story of Lot's wife? I don't see what else it can teach a child besides imbuing the child with a maddening amount of fear and crippling submission to every ordinance of God, despite what those ordinances are.

Finally, in my opinion exposing children to all the death and killing in the bible, at a young age, can have devastatingly bad effects on their mental and moral growth.

Trudax:
Please can someone address the points I made? I really entertain the possibility of having my mind changed on this issue. I can't be replying to people who can't analyse ideas critically and intelligently.

lovelygurl:
Nobody is saying the Bible is a reason. We are talking about religion aren't we. It could be any religion also Islam

lovelygurl:
Of course I won't kiss someone of the same sex because I am not gay but why should it be my business when two adults decide to do whatever they want to. It doesn't matter if they are hetero/homo.

Who are "you guys" and who is accusing you of hypocrisy. I just asked some questions which you have refused to answer. Obviously religion hasn't been really effective, if countries with higher number of atheists are safer than the religious ones. Sad isn't it?

lovelygurl:
Religion is a very touchy topic in Nigeria, people switch off their brains when religion is mentioned, activating the 'defend mode'.

Acidosis:
Check the Title of the thread again.

Acidosis:
The unsafe countries have been like that for decades.

If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything. Those dying because of their faith obviously stood for something.

Unlike US, Nigerians opposed the idea of radical feminism, same sex marriage, etc.

Unfortunately, the purpose of religion isn't to make all religion agree on one course.

That some Arab countries are unsafe is nothing new. It has been like that for decades. All Christians know this fact and even if America, Russia, and all the world leaders decide to deploy their artillery to these nations, it won't bring about peace. These wars you see is more reason why the Bible remains justified and accurate. Arab nations will continue to experience war for as long as the earth exists.

lovelygurl:
You are twisting things up AGAIN. Nobody is talking about standing up for your faith because most countries now embrace different religions. Well except for most Arab countries.
I even think it's hilarious how you keep saying all Christians know this and that when we all know Christians have done worse.

Anyway back to what I was saying. With 'unsafe', I mean where are the 'religious' morals gone that was instilled into them. Most 'religious' country ALSO Nigeria where almost 50% are Christains are unsafe NOT because they stand for their faith. Tell most Nigerian Christains at gun point that they'll be allowed to go if they become a Muslim and see how they change. Do you call that stand up for your faith. In fact the next Sunday there'll be a testimony, the fact that they denied their God is forgotten because they CAN be forgiven.

You are talking about radical feminism and gay rights. So we want to pretend that although you talk bad about those countries they are safer that your holy holy country. I can already list the topics your church is going to talk about on Sunday
Pastor: Lats pray first those ladies that are yet to marry
Ladies dress responsible
Children respect your elders blablabla
Then tongue speaking for about 30 mins. Testimony time, flaunting their fashion skills and dancing skills and the service is over.


Most people go to Church every Sunday in Nigeria, go to the Mosque every Friday. Yet they are the same people that will accuse a rape victim of dressing improperly. In fact no one talks about the rapist or they talk about him however there's a "but the lady didn't dress properly" added to it. Same people brought with "morals".

The fact that Jesus wasn't able to get tempted by the devil in the wilderness is forgotten. Do you want to tell me they never read that part of the Bible?
In fact a baby was too cute that's why she got raped right? How dare he/she have tempted the rapist with her 'baby cuteness'?

Your pastors would rather talk about ridiculous topics, as if those are the real problems, when politicians are there stealing your money. Those politicians were also brought in a very religious country so what went wrong? In stead of the pastor to preach about that, he'll rather people "pray" for them.

Well I have never seen someone pass an exam or earn money just by praying and never leaving the house.

Nigeria is quick to frown about the morals of the western world because they see themselves as holy holy YET criminals like robbers, kidnappers etc are chilling there. That's what I mean with unsafe! Not standing for your religion because like I said most won't do at gun point.

lovelygurl:
You are twisting things up AGAIN. Nobody is talking about standing up for your faith because most countries now embrace different religions. Well except for most Arab countries.
I even think it's hilarious how you keep saying all Christians know this and that when we all know Christians have done worse.

Anyway back to what I was saying. With 'unsafe', I mean where are the 'religious' morals gone that was instilled into them. Most 'religious' country ALSO Nigeria where almost 50% are Christains are unsafe NOT because they stand for their faith. Tell most Nigerian Christains at gun point that they'll be allowed to go if they become a Muslim and see how they change. Do you call that stand up for your faith. In fact the next Sunday there'll be a testimony, the fact that they denied their God is forgotten because they CAN be forgiven.

You are talking about radical feminism and gay rights. So we want to pretend that although you talk bad about those countries they are safer that your holy holy country. I can already list the topics your church is going to talk about on Sunday
Pastor: Lats pray first those ladies that are yet to marry
Ladies dress responsible
Children respect your elders blablabla
Then tongue speaking for about 30 mins. Testimony time, flaunting their fashion skills and dancing skills and the service is over.


Most people go to Church every Sunday in Nigeria, go to the Mosque every Friday. Yet they are the same people that will accuse a rape victim of dressing improperly. In fact no one talks about the rapist or they talk about him however there's a "but the lady didn't dress properly" added to it. Same people brought with "morals".

The fact that Jesus wasn't able to get tempted by the devil in the wilderness is forgotten. Do you want to tell me they never read that part of the Bible?
In fact a baby was too cute that's why she got raped right? How dare he/she have tempted the rapist with her 'baby cuteness'?

Your pastors would rather talk about ridiculous topics, as if those are the real problems, when politicians are there stealing your money. Those politicians were also brought in a very religious country so what went wrong? In stead of the pastor to preach about that, he'll rather people "pray" for them.

Well I have never seen someone pass an exam or earn money just by praying and never leaving the house.

Nigeria is quick to frown about the morals of the western world because they see themselves as holy holy YET criminals like robbers, kidnappers etc are chilling there. That's what I mean with unsafe! Not standing for your religion because like I said most won't do at gun point.

Acidosis:
Lol, so says the man who wouldn't leave his butt to be cracked by another man. How did you know that ga.y practice is morally wrong?

Acidosis:
[s]Calm down dear. The black race has serious mental issues. Why do you think the whites called us Monkey even before we knew anything about religion? Why would you blame a recent religion for a longstanding dum.b nature of the black race?[/s]

I read this twice. The first time was exactly the way you had written it, the second time was replacing the "black race" with your name. Sorry. I just felt you should speak for yourself
[s]Any country can excel with religion, except the black race.[/s] Religion did not stop China from becoming an emerging economy, soon to be merged with the likes of United States of America. Religion did not stop UAE (Dubai) from becoming a number one destination for tourism, thanks to a single Prince (who in fact was an addict follower of everything Islam stands for).

The black man has been proven as the number one abuser of any positive policy. Didn't the white men gave us Laptops? What have we the youths been doing with that? Why don't you blame laptops for the increasing number of internet frauds?

Why are your people getting killed in Malaysia, Indonesia, India? Is it because they are religious?

My people?

Many of you need to think beyond the religion line. It's getting staled having heard that line a million times on this forum, unfortunately, those who use such lines aren't even any better than the average religious black man.

Take away Christianity and Islam from Nigerians, I bet you don't want to imagine what would be left. The black man has issues, he is known to misappropriate, misuse and malhandle anything that works in the west.

Look beyond religion, there are greater issues to lay blames on.

Give Koreans religion, they will still prosper. Give the Chinese man religion, he will still prosper. In fact, China has more idols and shrines than any known place in Africa. Just so you know, the largest Christian congregation in the universe is based in South Korea (google Yongi Cho).

Seriously, I don't know what you guys want to hear. How is the life of an average atheist better than a Christian in Nigeria? If the Christians are the problem, are atheists also dum.b and clueless?

Israel is a highly religious country, yet has a literacy rate of over 98% (check google), one of the highest anywhere in the universe. Its Military prowess is almost noncontestible. Why didn't religion hinder all these? Majority of its artillery were designed and built in Israel, that's a country with a population just twice the population of two or three LGAs (Alimosho, Kosofe & Oshodi-Isolo) of Lagos state. Its economy is 21st most competitive in the world and you can't just go to Israel today and insult one of their religious "symbols"

Same Israel has invited the number one most criticized preacher in Nigeria, yet you think religion is the reason we are dum.b?
We are very religious yet many of you detest TB Joshua more than Boko Haram soldiers.
Seriously? That fake pastor? Which kind of mentality do you have? So because he was invited by Israel means what he does is right? I don't believe in his fake miracles and just because one country says they do won't make me think otherwise. I have my own brain and I can think for myself. I don't need others to do the thinking for me. One of the problems in Nigeria, most don't think, always saying stuffs like you do. Most in Israel are Jews, he is a Christain, I have no idea why they are calling him

I don't know what the black man wants really. If the people are dum.b and unable to process information from the Bible, without having to listen to a con preacher, it means our educational system has simply produced more mediocres. Mind you, that's the reality as literacy rate in Nigeria is the lowest in the world. So, what do you expect, in a knowledge economy?

I have to agree with you on this. This is actually the only point I think you have made till now

I don't know how else to explain this, but lastly, I don't think many Nigerians consider themselves as "holy holy". We frown upon most of the western culture and I strongly support that idea. Nothings works here so copying everything the white man does will destroy everything completely. We are yet to even arrest prostitutes in our streets like Italians and Indians, how can we then curtail homosexuality or marijuana if such is openly allowed in Nigeria?

Who is asking you to copy everything? Copy what you think is right. The thing is that is a based on a personal opinion. What you think is right might be what I think is wrong. I for example think it's right to mind my business, you on the other hand think people should poke into what two adults decide to do.

We know ourselves well enough, and we surely would not allow what might ruin the whole nation and leave it in complete ruins.

I do not wish to continue with these comebacks, but I'm hopeful this piece would convince those whose minds are open to critical observation of history: to put it better, Nigeria would still be Nigeria with or without religion (all things being equal).

[s]Hadn't it been that Covenant University and many private unis maintained strict moral standards founded upon Christianity, wouldn't you all have turned these schools to dens of exotic and arms carrying cultists (something the black man is known for even in the US)?
[/s]

This point is too ridiculous for my liking. I can name other universities which aren't founded upon Christianity and are doing great, just like I can name universities based on morals standards but aren't doing great. The fact that cultists aren't common in such universities doesn't mean they have morals. They just tend to be criminals in suits, finding people to do their dirty job. How is that better yh still the actual cultists?
Check out Covenant Uni today;
https://www.nairaland.com/3793931/covenant-university-tops-research-endeavors

lovelygurl:
I do agree with few of your points though

Trudax:
I am not questioning the validity of anyone's religious beliefs, I am just examining the act of using the bible as a guide to instill moral values in a child through reading the texts to the child and allowing the child access to it.

I don't think the bible is the best foundation for developing a child's morality. Like I said in my thread title, I think it's dangerously harmful.

Now I am not saying the bible isn't an efficient mechanism to imbue good moral values in a child, I am just saying it's not the best and it's also not the most efficient.

First of all, the bible is very instructive. It dishes out morality on the table of transcendent authority. It tells you that you must do something because god wants you to. This is also what parents tell their kids. They tell them not to steal or lie because god forbids them to lie. I believe it's more effective when a child does something because he understands the reason for doing that thing, than when he does that thing because he's been commanded by an invincible being not to do that thing.

Secondly, I think introducing a child to the notion of hell is terribly bad. This could have devastatingly harmful effects on the mind of the child. Imagine the mental trauma a child could go through when he contemplates the possibility of going to hell for committing even the smallest of crimes.

Thirdly, the bible is replete with stories that purport to espouse moral values, but actually convey the opposite of progressive moral values.
Example is the story of Abraham and Isaac. What moral value does this convey besides the ethics of committing murder? How about the story of Lot's wife? I don't see what else it can teach a child besides imbuing the child with a maddening amount of fear and crippling submission to every ordinance of God, despite what those ordinances are.

Finally, in my opinion exposing children to all the death and killing in the bible, at a young age, can have devastatingly bad effects on their mental and moral growth.

Blonchilli:
Bro don't waste your time. Choose whatever material or book you wish to raise your child with. Moral objectivity is the best. The blind religious fools on this page are same people who walk on the street and has morally deluded preachers for gods. Religion is not entirely wrong but using it as a tool to raise and manipulate people is what is wrong. Look at how they swarm and attack you like ants around sugar. Religion is the bane of the poor and the rich only use it to control the masses. Please raise your child to be able to judge what's right or wrong without having to fear for hell or being scolded by a priest who does much worse. And for the guy arguing earlier by insulting you, can't you see Nigerians can't give any argument without attacking your personality? Peace