PastorAIO:


Yes, I believe that consciousness can exist without the brain.

I don't believe that anybody has demonstrated consciousness without or without a certified dead brain. I do not believe that even you have demonstrated any 'conscious ability'.

although I suspect that you and I are talking about different things when we refer to Consciousness.

dalaman:


What generates consciousness and how can it be clearly demonstrated?

CatfishBilly:

The vast majority of science is of the agreement that consciousness resides squarely in the Central nervous system.
There's no out of body consciousness that's separated from the brain. It has never been proven last I researched.

CatfishBilly:

The vast majority of science is of the agreement that consciousness resides squarely in the Central nervous system.
There's no out of body consciousness that's separated from the brain. It has never been proven last I researched.

butterflylion:


The VAT majority of science assume that consciousness resides within the brain and that is simply because science is based on what we can see, touch, hear and feel so anything outside that boundary is discarded as they have no equipment or parameters to study them and that is another reason why they still question NDE.

dalaman:


I was surprised when butterflylion came up with his empty and baseless claim that has no evidence at all. I asked him to provide evidence and he ran away.

We all know the brain is only real in 3 dimensions.

But now in 2017 scientists are trying to claim our knowing and awareness exists in 11 dimensions. Isn’t that just another way of saying that mind and Being is non-material and NOT brain-based?

There is a project known as the Blue Brain Project and it claims to have discovered a multi-dimensional universe in brain networks. This is being billed as “ground-breaking work that is beginning to reveal the brain’s deepest architectural secrets.”

This research was published on the 12th of June 2017 in Frontiers in Computational Neuroscience. (look It up) and they say “shows” that these structures arise when a group of neurons forms a clique: each neuron connects to every other neuron in the group in a very specific way that generates a precise geometric object. The more neurons there are in a clique, the higher the dimension of the geometric object.

“They said they found a world that they had never imagined,” and this was a comment from neuroscientist Henry Markram, director of Blue Brain Project and professor at the EPFL in Lausanne, Switzerland, “there are tens of millions of these objects even in a small speck of the brain, up through seven dimensions. In some networks, we even found structures with up to eleven dimensions.”

Markram suggests this may explain why it has been so hard to understand the brain. “The mathematics usually applied to study networks cannot detect the high-dimensional structures and spaces that we now see clearly.”
If a 3 or 4 dimensional world stretches our imagination, worlds with 5, 6 or more dimensions are too complex for most of us to comprehend.

This is where algebraic topology comes in: a branch of mathematics that can describe systems with any number of dimensions. The mathematicians who brought algebraic topology to the study of brain networks in the Blue Brain Project were Kathryn Hess from EPFL and Ran Levi from Aberdeen University.

As Hess said, "Algebraic topology is like a telescope and microscope at the same time. It can zoom into networks to find hidden structures the trees in the forest and see the empty spaces the clearings all at the same time,”

In 2015, Blue Brain published the first digital copy of a piece of the neocortex the most evolved part of the brain and the seat of our sensations, actions, and consciousness. In this latest research, using algebraic topology, multiple tests were performed on the virtual brain tissue to show that the multi-dimensional brain structures discovered could never be produced by chance.
Experiments were then performed on real brain tissue in the Blue Brain’s wet lab in Lausanne confirming that the earlier discoveries in the virtual tissue are biologically relevant and also suggesting that the brain constantly rewires during development to build a network with as many high-dimensional structures as possible.
It all sounds very plausible, except for one thing: why does the brain suddenly erect 11-dimensional structures? In response to what?
Neuroscience has long struggled to find where the brain stores its memories (because it doesn’t). “They may be ‘hiding’ in high-dimensional cavities,” Henry Markram speculates. So, in non-material dimensions.

Rupert Sheldrake in another separate publication said this below

We can best think of mind and brain with the model of a radio set and broadcasting station.
The brain is the equivalent of a radio set; we need it to listen to the broadcasts. The broadcasts are the true equivalent of the mind. But that doesn’t mean the brain is the origin of these transmissions.

Of course mechanistic scientists argue that there is ONLY the radio set and offer as proof the fact that they can block or alter the broadcasts by tweaking the radio set. Of course they are just tuning in to a different broadcast!

It could be argued that chemicals change brain functions and therefore transcendent states due to mescaline, cannabis and so forth are really physical in nature. It’s all brain, in other words.
But actually, that argument is not logical.

To continue the radio set metaphor, psychedelic drugs may simply re-tune the set much as fiddling with a knob would do and tune it to rather exotic stations, with strange messages!
The truth is that the broadcasts, of whatever nature, do not come from or reside in the radio set.

It’s the same with the mind: it’s not “in” the brain any more than the radio station is “in” the radio set

The very fact that we have consciousness, we are here and even more amazingly we KNOW we are here, is the greatest of all miracles of existence.
We are here but we do not know WHAT IT MEANS TO BE. We do not understand the phenomenon of TO BE. Yet we all have it.

This is like a knife which cannot cut itself. Being cannot, at this time, quite see itself. It can be. We can see ourselves being ourselves. But it remains the most amazing, appalling, mystery in all human knowledge.

We can build cars, televisions, computers, smart phones, rocket ships… but we cannot make ourselves.

But in no sense can we pretend there are more answers then questions. It is totally the other way round it’s almost all questions

dalaman:


Where is your own evidence to show that consciousness is generated outside the brain and how can that be clearly demonstrated? You have to provide evidence for your own assumptions as well. What generates consciousness? It's very easy to make wild and empty claims.

butterflylion:


The problem with you is that you think too highly of yourself and always try to convince yourself that what you say is actually true. Here you are claiming I ran away when I told you on another thread that I would respond to you on my own time and not based on your demand. The below post is for you.



!

We can see that science is also taking the posture of consciousness not being brain based because thought isn't confines to the brain yet the brain processes thought whenever it pops up which is similar to what Rupert Sheldrake said that the brain is like a radio set that receives and interpreted signals but does not generate them.

I know that even you, a lot of times you have woken up happy and full of good thoughts but out of nowhere a negative thought just pops into your head and you cannot understand why you are having such a thought despite being positively happy.

Or when you are driving down the road and fully concentrated on your driving and then suddenly a thought pops into your head that you need to call someone (without you even thinking about it) the thought just pops up from nowhere.

I am sure if you sit down and think about it, you will discover I am right.

butterflylion:


I do not think you read where I said science is evidential while not everything is tangible.

dalaman:


Which science? You just threw quotes at me without links. What am I to do with them? Where are the links to your post?

I asked you to show me what generates consciousness and how it can be clearly demonstrated. You haven't done that but throw more wild assumptions from who knows where claiming it's science. Where did you get those quotes from? Next time make sure you post the source where you lift your materials.

butterflylion:



http://www.supernoetics.com/is-this-proof-the-brain-is-not-the-seat-of-consciousness/

dalaman:


Where is the scientific evidence that shows that consciousness is generated outside the brain and how has that been clearly demonstrated scientifically?

butterflylion:



http://www.supernoetics.com/is-this-proof-the-brain-is-not-the-seat-of-consciousness/

felixomor:


They are quite even more numerous studies
http://www.express.co.uk/news/science/670781/There-IS-life-after-DEATH-Scientists-reveal-shock-findings-from-groundbreaking-study

dalaman:


What we have up there are just speculations. They claim the brain is 3 dimensional and there are other mathematical dimensional plains. They even concluded with this:

Note that extra mathematical dimensions are pure[b] abstractions[/b]; they do not actually exist, except to make formulas balance up when the formula is otherwise WRONG!

What am I to do with wild speculations? What generates consciousness is what you are to show not throwing wild mathematical abstract and imaginations at me.

butterflylion:


This is a quote from you link felixomor

Furthermore, the detailed recollections of visual awareness in this case were consistent with verified events.

Cc dalaman.

What that quote means is that people who came back after heart failure or no brain activity actually gave detailed recollections of things they saw from outside their body which was going on around them and their visual observations were verified as actual events happening when they lay dead and without brain activity.

So how could they still see and recollect without the help of the brain?

dalaman:


What we have up there are just speculations. They claim the brain is 3 dimensional and there are other mathematical dimensional plains. They even concluded with this:

Note that extra mathematical dimensions are pure[b] abstractions[/b]; they do not actually exist, except to make formulas balance up when the formula is otherwise WRONG!

What am I to do with wild speculations? What generates consciousness is what you are to show not throwing wild mathematical abstract and imaginations at me.

butterflylion:


By the way, the brain is 3 dimensional and that is a fact and not a claim. However they discovered that this same brain creates 11 dimensions within itself and the questions is WHY?

what would make the brain create 11 dimensional walls in its information centre when physically there is no reason to do that since it only receives 3 dimensional stimuli.

So why the 11 dimensional wall? Could it be that it is receiving an 11 dimensional stimuli from another source outside its physical 3 dimensional stimuli?

There is a huge gap between 3D and 11D and if 3D still blows our mind today then imagine what 10D or 11D would do. It would be like unlocking the full potentials of the brain and being able to see everything from the front, back, side, top, bottom, in between, inside out, outside in, in colours that do not physically exist, and calculating all these information at the same time.

Something else is causing an 11 dimensional stimuli on the brain.

butterflylion:



I do not think you understood that quote. This was what it meant. For the limits of science these abstractions do not exist but they can be mathematically calculated because mathematics isn't limited to tangible things so they aid to bring balance when physical formulas are wrong.

butterflylion:


I think you are beginning to mock yourself. Clearly you read where I said science is beginning to tow the line that consciousness isn't brain based and here you are trying to force me to tell you where consciousness comes from.

Don't worry, the ground breaking research was published just in June 2017 so evidence would follow soon for you that consciousness isn't brain based.

Do you actually "originate" your thoughts from your brain or your brain simply processes them? Is it everything you want to think about that comes as you want them or a lot of other undesired thoughts also come along but your brain simply chooses what you want from all that mess.

You wake up in the morning and the thought "coffee" pops into your head without you thinking about it. Your brain begins to process the information and you suddenly feel a longing for coffee and your brain decides how coffee is prepared and you get up and make yourself one. All this happens in Nano seconds but you can actually freeze the process by asking yourself questions in the moment like, "but I do not need coffee so why am I thinking about it"?.

dalaman:


The dimensions were clearly stated to be be mathematical abstracts from the link you posted. They do not actually exist in reality. They are just mathematical abstracts.

You are to provide evidence not speculations of could it would it should it. I don't have any interest in your own opinions and speculations. The evidence of what generates consciousness is what you are to provide not mathematical abstracts, opinions and wild imaginations. You made the claim to provide evidence for your speculations and assumptions. What is is this elusive source? What's it's name and how can it be clearly verified? I don't want your opinions.

dalaman:


The dimensions were clearly stated to be be mathematical abstracts from the link you posted. They do not actually exist in reality. They are just mathematical abstracts.

You are to provide evidence not speculations of could it would it should it. I don't have any interest in your own opinions and speculations. The evidence of what generates consciousness is what you are to provide not mathematical abstracts, opinions and wild imaginations. You made the claim to provide evidence for your speculations and assumptions. What is is this elusive source? What's it's name and how can it be clearly verified? I don't want your opinions.

dalaman:


What am I to do with your opinions? This is what it says:


Note that extra mathematical dimensions are pure abstractions; they do not actually exist, except to make formulas balance up when the formula is otherwise WRONG!

I can read and understand clearly. I do not need your opinions and interpretations.

butterflylion:


Gosh! Let me break it down. The brain is a reaction and processing unit. It reacts to what we see, touch, feel, hear etc and builds structures which can handle such external stimuli.

The Brain is a 3 dimensional machine which it has become due to our restriction to 3 dimensional assessment and visualisation.

However an 11 dimensional response structure was found to reside in the brain and since the brain only builds structures based on information stimulating it then something beyond our known 3 dimensional exposure is causing this 11 dimensional response.

Our world does not have 5D to 11D stimulations so the brain could not have developed those 11 dimensional structural responses in its neurons on its own. It came from a source above our 3 dimensional world.

That is as simple as I can put it and if you still do not understand it then good luck

dalaman:


Ogbeni what generates consciousness is what you are to tell me. What is the name of the thing that generates it, how can it be clearly demonstrated. These are what you are to provide answers to not writing epistles about coffee. What generates consciousness? Tell me the name of the thing and how it can be demonstrated. It's simple.

dalaman:



What generates consciousness and how can it be clearly demonstrated is what you are to provide evidence for not telling me something bla bla bla. Something? What is the thing? What's it's name? How can it be clearly verified? What is this source you are speculating?

butterflylion:


so suddenly mathematics does not provide evidence simply because you do not see it? Are mathematical equations real or are the results real?

That's what the quote meant by balancing things. Mathematics are simply calculations which help confirm something intangible and brings it to tangibility.

Is this equation tangible?



No it is not. But it helps prove something that exists. That is what mathematics does.

butterflylion:



This your comment shows you are not a critical thinker and also not a scientific mind.

Despite all I keep saying, and you keep reading, you keep repeating this?

dalaman:


Mathematics has brought the tangiblility of what generates consciousness what? What is the thing?

dalaman:


That is because you are NOT saying anything meaningful or relevant to the question am asking. You claimed that consciousness is generated outside the brain by a source. All I've asked you to do is tell me what generates it, and state this elusive source you have been talking about. Simple question. What generates consciousness?

butterflylion:



This your comment shows you are not a critical thinker and also not a scientific mind.

Despite all I keep saying, and you keep reading, you keep repeating this?