₦airaland Forum

That which you are trying to differentiate btw now and the past is time...?it progresses on its own....has nothing to do with human. It progressesmin space for instance the earth will go round the sun in a period of time....we measure it to take 365days based on our definition....another intelligent lifeforms could measure it to take 4 dmerciful based on their own definition

chemystery:
time is a human construct used to help us differentiate between now and our perception of the past. Existence is another thing altogether that has to do with matter. Space on its own is human construct used to define an expands free of matter

chemystery:
First, are you science inclined? That we share >90% of our DNA with apes is enough evidence. There is a study that reveals what humans will look like in future. Say a million years time. Google is your friend

hahaha so we share DNA that means we came from an ancestor? why then are we different? the last time I checked an ape is still the same why humans create different things daily. it is so unfair for you to say that man and ape is alike maybe because they resemble. science indeed. a million years from now when they don't know 100 yrs from now. now on a more serious note where are the stages of evolving from this ape like creature to man and ape?
and in addition the bible actually did say the earth is round Isaiah 40:22

DMerciful:
Time was not created by Humans. Clock is not time...it is a device to measure or calculate the progress of existence(time)

Seems like your brain is paining you, when argument like this is involved don't just come and chip in words any how, who is saying clock is time
Maybe you can involve calendar as well

DMerciful:
Stay on the topic! Even if man came out from bacteria, the bacteria cannot come out of nothing!

going by your ideology then life would not have happened. because if man come from bacteria then bacteria came from what and then what did that come from making the beginning infinite which is not possible because life do exist. it is easy when we know the limit we can comprehend.

Thanks....hope u're happy now!

obinna58:
Seems like your brain is paining you, when argument like this is involved don't just come and chip in words any how, who is saying clock is time
Maybe you can involve calendar as well

Immorttal:
My question still is: if everything was created including varied life forms and the universe itself, and was supposedly created by God, then Who created God

Jamb question, goan ask GOD

obinna58:
Everything that has beginning also has ending, Human created time as some kind of measurement, that kind of time you have in mind has no beginning or ending thereby real time does not exist

nobody created time. Time is endless and unlimitless. Humans only created a tool to which is clock or wrist watches to try and monitor time

kayoph:
1*==> That is erroneous... i would like you to understand that even if man seize to exist, time continues... Time was before man.. Let take it one by one. What do you understand by the word "Time".... if you check my last comment on this topic i stated it simply there.. but i just copied this from google now: "Time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future". source:wikipedia

The existence referred to in the definition isn't just for man.. It covers the continuous existence of all materials.. In all frame of reference time Exist.. But not absolute for all.. So Note that the incidental occurrence either natural or artificial that man uses to track time is a tool..my point here is that MAn creating a mechanism for keeping track of time isn't the reason for the birth of time but just a proof of time continuing regardless and it's infinite (i'll talk about this later).. Like you said Everything has a duration of existence, of course i agree with you.. for example there will be a point in time where every present living thing on the earth will seize to exist and its our offspring that will live in our stead..

2*==> i'll like you to understand that the supposed time-frame(life span) is equal if we are in the same frame of reference, dilation only occurs if we are in a different F.o.R.. So for You, I and the animal, we are all in the same frame of reference 100yrs = 100yrs, 10yrs=10yrs,etc.

3*==>That is also erroneous, time is infinite in only one direction...


In summary,
When time started you can't tell because we cannot tell the foremost of all event.. Even if we could that doesn't = it's beginning its just a clue that this was the first event recorded "in time".. It is ever infinite.. That was why i said in my last comment that "i think": its coming from -∞ going to +∞... so what we only do is to make reference with the tools we use to tell time-frame of a particular event from the present(which is however continuous "in this context" to the distant past..
For example: The age of our galaxy is 13.21 billion years ago(i.e away from this present time)..
The age of planet earth is 4.543 billion years away from this present time..
The modern form of humans only evolved about 200,000 years ago. Civilization as we know it is only about 6,000 years old..

This typically tells us that time has been running long before us and surely even before the formation of what caused the formation of what caused the formation of our galaxy... and even after we all sieze to exist will still continue..

ULTIMATELY it was because of this mystery i concluded that time must be a dimension of God.. An inseparable consequence of his being....

I hope its a clearer explanation this time..

Not at all
Time was never there before man cos man invented time, your time definition was right cos that exactly how it should be in order to suit measurement,
Of course the galaxy is about 13.21Billionyrs and planet is 4.543billionyrs forgetting that it was possibly calculated with the help of "time invention" and there no difference between then and now except that the earth is passing through it's own process of life which at a time expires (completed it's life span), life sizes to exist and that infinite time you think exist continues
I never said 100yrs is equal to 10yrs just that I equated it mathematically to an animal which has about 1000+Yrs of life span and made equivalent to 100yrs

Do you believe in God? Cos I think that might be themain reason you are being impervious to this argument

DMerciful:
Looking at the organisation of the universe and the intelligent design thereof, it's super clear that the universe and everything within was created. Chance can never make such a design. Who knows maybe this entire world is just a dream of the Ancient One

its also clear sunlight is white. But we all know it isn't. Its about proof. Life and everything on earth took advantage of the unique conditions on earth to flourish. The conditions were not created for us. We took advantage of it.

Billyonaire:
Depends on the God in question.

Jehovah, Allah and the rest of the Elohims etc, have lifespans averaging 10,000 Earth years. That sounds like eternity, but its not.

But, Jehovah, Allah and the rest of the Gods, are just our Human Ancestors, they created the Human Species Homo Erectus by cloning, hybridization, cross-sexualizatin, reproduction and even teleportation and injection of soul mechanisms. They even went ahead to sequence our DNAs and still do it till now. Now, we are being re-designed to Homo Norvus.

What I am saying is, that the Gods worshipped by religions, are not Almighty God, so yes, God has another God Almighty. In the Bible and Koran, you read alot about Lords, God, and Almighty God. It took me years to understand the Bible, and some of you and your Pastors do not even know that in the original manuscripts, Lord, God and Almighty God referenced different Entities.

Now, I believe the question on your mind is 'Who is Almighty God and Who created Him ?' To answer to that question is very very very simple.

Everything is energy and Consciousness. Life is just a subset of cosmic existence and physical survival is just a perspective of the totality of life of Soul. Soul has many bodies, Earth body is just one of the many aspects of soul. Since physical body is just equipped only 5 physical senses, and answers about God and creation can not be decoded using the 5 senses, there is need to employ the senses of Soul. The Extra-Sensory perception to decode the nature of God and existence. Sleep, dream, Out of Body Experience, Death, Orgasm, Meditation, Psychedelic drugs and even Sex are apparatus outside of the 5 senses which can lead one to explore the other aspects of our lives. Ofcourse, these are aspects of our lives that has been restricted badly.

Where ever is declared a no-go area, is where vital documents and instruments are kept. Go within and you will come to the realization that Physical existence is just a frequency in the spectrum of existence. Physical life is just consciousness of 7 colours in the Spectrum of 24 via a limited robotic body with only 2 strands of DNA from the pool of 12 strands which represents the 12 Extra-terrestrial groups of entities who did so much programming of our robotic body. The 2 strands are a connection to the Orion Belt, the Home of Jehovah and the Allah. The remaining 10 strands are yours to activate and welcome the data streams from the other Races of ETs from the Galactic Federation of Cosmic Beings.

Till then, understand that Earth is Digital Library of some sort, and spirit comes here every now and then to experience life on physical plane and transmit data from brainwaves to the cosmic minds. Our bodies are bio-robots designed for our Spirit which is encased in the core of our Soul plasma membrane, it has to be housed in soul so the EM radiations do not alter its make-up.

Robots will never understand the nature of its makers, but we have a chance since we have consciousness, an awareness. So, a robot have to drop his body and tune the pineal to see the etheric nature of universe and journey the cosmos using your real body or even as a ball of light. But if you choose, you can decide to wear the body of ETs. That is how complex you are.

God as you know it in religions are ETs, the Almighty Creator of all, is the real core of all ETs and ofcourse you, cos you are a hybrid of ETs and ofcourse, Spirit is God and God is spirit, we are the God we have been searching for. We are it at physical level, as we journey to the world within, we will meet other hierarchies on our evolutionary journeys through the cosmos.

Gbam.. Wow wow.. This is one of the most insightful, comprehensive and spot on dimension to this 'god/gods or life form' dilema i have ever come across in a while.. Much more than any confusing, most times illogical and inconclusive rationale/analysis our mainstream religions combined could ever come close to elucidating on without creating more confusions and complexities whenever they put forth their doctrines.. Where did u get such knowledge base from? Whats its source pls.. I would like to follow through with it.. Well done and more wisdom.. Thanks alot

HenryDion:
When a theist is arguing with an atheist, theists don't waste time to acknowledge an intelligent design, to them, everything has a creator and so are humans.

God is an intelligent being, how did he come about? What prompted his existence? If God was created,who created his creator? If something triggered him into existence, what triggered the trigger? Trying to grasp this mystery of NO BEGINNING and NO END can spin our mortal mind. It's beyond our human comprehendsion. For there to be an effect, there must be a cause. But in the case of God, you might be looking at endless strings of infinity. Looking for the BEGINNING of life is like looking for the end of numbers. Some things are simply beyond us no matter how we grow in knowledge and enlightenment.

you're actually righy, and this has left me totally confused, sincerely I don't know what to believe anymore, i'm so unstable and desperately need answers to so many questions running through my mind...

I'm adding you winner01 I like your sense of reasoning.

winner01:
If something comes into being, it must have been prompted by something else. A book has an author. Music has a music artist. A party has a party-thrower! All things that begin, that have a start, have a cause to their beginning.


"If a creator God needs to have been made by a creator, that creator would also need a creator who needs a creator … like an infinite chain of toppling dominos, which is an impossibility." - Bertrand Russel (1872-1970)


Today’s atheists repeat the objection, including Richard Dawkins (The God Delusion) and Philip Adams, who said,

“The great argument for God was that there had to be a Creation, a beginning. … But my objection was simple. If God was the beginning who began God?”



So who created God? Many religious people, especially Christians including myself consider this question the ultimate blasphemy. In times of inquisition, 800 years ago in Europe, this question alone could easily have gotten one killed or at least sent to the torture chambers by the powers that be of the time – the Catholic Church.

Yet today, it seems to be a legitimate and a profound question. This question must be best answered to help grow the faith of genuine enquirers and tick the conscience of honest unbelievers.
Even if one doesn't believe in God or any kind of divine being, the question remains: Why does anything exist? Why not just nothingness?

These are the ultimate existential questions and it may concern every human on earth.



Everything we observe in nature has a beginning. Theists, more specifically Christians however often object by making the claim below:

"God is in a different category, God is different from all nature and humanity and everything that exists, in that he has always existed, independent from anything he created. God is not a dependent being, but self-sufficient, self-existent.
Psalms 90:2, 1 chronicles 29:11-12, John 4:24.

Christians admit that everything has a cause with just one exception, GOD. Christians submit this because this is exactly how the Bible describes God, and how God has revealed himself to be.


While I will not be using scriptures to make my point.
It is important to note that the Bible says, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth” (Genesis 1:1). Here God created time itself. Only One who is outside of time, that is, timeless, or eternal, could do this.

Let's leave this for a while. Almost everyone agrees that the world has a beginning. Science seems to have proven that time and space had a beginning. This fact amongst others have made some change their opinion on reality.
https://www.nairaland.com/3314364/christian-family-atheism-jesus-christ

Three scientific evidences seems to prove that the universe has a beginning. They are briefly explained in the thread above.

1. The second law of thermodynamics
2. An expanding universe
3. The cosmic background radiation

So basically.
- The universe has not always existed (the universe has a beginning)
- Time and space began with the universe (Time and space began when the universe began)


Prior to the universe, there was nothing, NO TIME, no space, nothing at all.
This implication of this is that whatever brought the universe into existence is independent of the universe, independent of time (timeless or eternal) and independent of space.


This is a serious implication. It means that :
1. Either the universe came from nothing
2. or the universe came from something
3. or we don't know what brought forth the universe.


In reality. It is impossible for nothing to produce something. At least majority of people agree with this. And if it is impossible for nothing to give rise to something, then the existence of life should make no sense.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909250_img8162_jpega449fdec5674e7900a8abc4d01b71616

To me, life is even less complex than the universe. This truth (that nothing cannot produce something) is uncomfortable for those who propose that there is no Creator (of the universe).

This has led major scientists like Stephen hawkings, Lawrence krauss and others to theorize that something can come from nothing.

1. The M-Theory (which requires nothing something called gravity)
2. The multiverse theory (to which there exists no observable evidence)
3. Quantum vacuums (which infact has the properties of nothing something as Dr. Alexander Vilenkin points out
in this video.)


And maybe any other theory I don't know of. One thing is sure however, to validate any of the above theories, one must modify the definition of nothing.

Let's see the real definition of nothing.

www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909217_img8861_jpeg68ae4eccdc827e5cef36e4d5950fa853

Having said that. I'll go straight to my point.
Whatever was in existence prior to the universe, exists outside of time and space.

Whatever exists outside of time is timeless or eternal. The words "Timeless and eternal" seems to have a connection.

Lets see the definition of Timeless
www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909218_img8863_jpeg46c538e89180c8b5c8c7a3069cc08ddb


and eternal
www.nairaland.com/attachments/5909219_img8864_jpeg085949e1f8b8b358aefce3722518bc50

The major connection I see between these two words may be clear for everyone else to see.

"No beginning and no end".

This phenomenon is alien to humans. Majority of people can't seem to imagine an object with no beginning and no end (an object that was not created or an object that has been existing since forever).
It is natural though, afterall even our great planet will come to its end.
My point is, it is difficult for anyone to imagine something without a beginning or end.


The Bible describes God as:
1. ETERNAL in the following verses: Isaiah 40:28, Romans 16:26, 1 Timothy 1:17, Psalm 90:2
2. and SELF EXISTING: Exodus 3:14

The word YAHWEH itself is believed to be a form of the verb hayah, which signifies “to be,” ultimately meaning “the eternal One” or “self-existing One.”



So I have been able to make 2 points so far.
1. Timeless or eternal means no beginning and no end (UNCREATED OR SELF EXISTING)
2. The Bible describes God as timeless and eternal.



When atheists ask the question, "Who created God?". This question can be analyzed critically.

If something was created, it simply means it has a beginning. This negates the proposition of Christians as regards YAHWEH. Therefore such a question might either be born out of ignorance or dishonesty.
One can't ask who created something has no beginning and no end. Since the question itself proposes that this something has a beginning, It is an invalid question.


An eternal being or object has no beginning, no end. It is uncreated and timeless. It is self existent.
This is the what we mean when we say God is eternal.

I do not write to offend anyone's beliefs, but you can read this with an unbiased mind, I'm positive that you will come to an honest conclusion and admit that the question "Who created God" is an invalid question.


God bless you.

Hmmn... Well detailed & explicit explanation... Though am sure reprobate minded wld never be convinced... After all that's why they are called reprobate.

walls01:
man only chooses to be ignorant when he likes. from the early men till know man always know he was created until science one sided way about creation. from our forefathers man always know about another beings the spirit beings which science have formed ignorant of because they cannot scientifically prove it really on the logical way of thinking even they know has great limit

Of course spirits exist but science doesn't believe they do... So do charms work yet they deny their potent.. Who cares. Only a fool says there is no God

walls01:
hahaha so we share DNA that means we came from an ancestor? why then are we different? the last time I checked an ape is still the same why humans create different things daily. it is so unfair for you to say that man and ape is alike maybe because they resemble. science indeed. a million years from now when they don't know 100 yrs from now. now on a more serious note where are the stages of evolving from this ape like creature to man and ape?
and in addition the bible actually did say the earth is round Isaiah 40:22

Evolution explained all that. I'll advice you study what evolution says in details than ridicule what you are ignorant about. No where the bible mentioned about spherical earth else post such verse here

chemystery:
Evolution explained all that. I'll advice you study what evolution says in details than ridicule what you are ignorant about. No where the bible mentioned about spherical earth else post such verse here

surprisingly, and ironically you have not took your time to study evolution theory and compare it with life. one organism evolving to another eh. where since man was in this earth either you or your great grandfather have witnessed it? evolution said it happened billion of yrs ago what suddenly stop it from happening now. everything about the evolution theory is assumption and that is what you put your whole faith on. please re-study the evolution theory again please. spherical when did man start using that term? please see through unbelief

How does something that was not existing hitherto take advantage of a unique condition. Wait until lifeforms are discovered in other planets then u'll know earth is not unique. If you know how complex the human brain is and the 100 enzymes a yeast molecule can produce u'll know it can't be chance. Can't you see the intelligent designs? A trillion years cannot produce this designs by chance

gabe:
its also clear sunlight is white. But we all know it isn't. Its about proof. Life and everything on earth took advantage of the unique conditions on earth to flourish. The conditions were not created for us. We took advantage of it.

Time is not an invention of man. Time is existence and man did not create existence. I agree that Time is a dimension of God, the beginning of Time is the beginning of God

obinna58:
Not at all
Time was never there before man cos man invented time, your time definition was right cos that exactly how it should be in order to suit measurement,
Of course the galaxy is about 13.21Billionyrs and planet is 4.543billionyrs forgetting that it was possibly calculated with the help of "time invention" and there no difference between then and now except that the earth is passing through it's own process of life which at a time expires (completed it's life span), life sizes to exist and that infinite time you think exist continues
I never said 100yrs is equal to 10yrs just that I equated it mathematically to an animal which has about 1000+Yrs of life span and made equivalent to 100yrs

Do you believe in God? Cos I think that might be themain reason you are being impervious to this argument

Relax.....u cannot compare the knowledge of the present with the ignorance of the past. Sun was believed to be revolving round the earth in those days so much so that it was blasphemy to say otherwise. We know the truth now

jkbee:
Of course spirits exist but science doesn't believe they do... So do charms work yet they deny their potent.. Who cares. Only a fool says there is no God

walls01:
surprisingly, and ironically you have not took your time to study evolution theory and compare it with life. one organism evolving to another eh. where since man was in this earth either you or your great grandfather have witnessed it? evolution said it happened billion of yrs ago what suddenly stop it from happening now. everything about the evolution theory is assumption and that is what you put your whole faith on. please re-study the evolution theory again please. spherical when did man start using that term? please see through unbelief

if you think evolution is wrong, then go and disprove it scientifically

You haven't ponder why the theory hasn't been dropped whereas we have lots of religious scientists. Why? Because its theory and scientific evidence holds water.

Until you or anyone else disprove evolution scientifically other than applying wishful thinking of what life is suppose to be, then you should simply deal with it as the fact!

chemystery:
if you think evolution is wrong, then go and disprove it scientifically

You haven't ponder why the theory hasn't been dropped whereas we have lots of religious scientists. Why? Because its theory and scientific evidence holds water.

Until you or anyone else disprove evolution scientifically other than applying wishful thinking of what life is suppose to be, then you should simply deal with it as the fact!

So you believe evolution is right? And you believe the universe is eternal? And based on this you believe the universe created itself hence the question if God created everything then who created God? Give me an answer please

DMerciful:
Time is not an invention of man. Time is existence and man did not create existence. I agree that Time is a dimension of God, the beginning of Time is the beginning of God

The kind of time you are talking about, no beginning or ending does not exist,
time has beginning and equally going to have ending, it's an invention of man
Time is not existence cos there is nothing like time existence that's why man never created existence, I thought you are saying that real time has no beginning or are you confused

butterflylion:
So you believe evolution is right?

I didn't propound the theory, neither am i the claimant. I'm neither claiming it is right nor wrong. But if you think it is wrong, then disprove it.

And you believe the universe is eternal?

The universe is indeterminate. Hence we can say it is eternal

And based on this you believe the universe created itself hence the question if God created everything then who created God? Give me an answer please

I never mentioned anywhere that the universe created itself. Since the universe is eternal, no one knows if it created itself or created by something else.

chemystery:
I didn't propound the theory, neither am i the claimant. I'm neither claiming it is right nor wrong. But if you think it is wrong, then disprove it.


The universe is indeterminate. Hence we can say it is eternal


I never mentioned anywhere that the universe created itself. Since the universe is eternal, no one knows if it created itself or created by something else.

If something is said to be eternal it means it holds no value for a beginning and no value for an end. So it is just a constant and has no end point and no starting point.

Once something is said to be eternal then the issue of being created or creating itself becomes baseless simply because being created or creating itself would point to it having at least a beginning even if no ending. That alone defeats the word ETERNAL!

What makes man speak about creation or a lack of creation in terms of Gods eternity or in this case your talk about the eternal universe is like you said "the universe is indeterminate ".

This means you can only observe the universe within your limits and within the limits of what the observable universe has to offer and this in itself is within the confines of time. Time itself is a construct of an existing eternity which I would refer to as TIME with capitals.

time as we know it was a simple construct by man to measure their observations but this time was pulled out from TIME which was there before man emerged or even before the universe emerged.

TIME is continuous and a constant but mans time which was pulled from an already running and eternal TIME is limited to the limitations of man itself.

I could argue that the observable properties man says the universe holds were named by man based on their limitations but if there were other life forms out there they would also give properties of their own to the universe which would not agree with man's construct.

If other intelligent life forms existed, matter as we call it would be known as something else to them and would probably also have their own values which they got by observing within their own limits as well wouldn't you agree?

Since you say the universe is eternal which shows you are an advocate of evolution, and we say God is eternal yet you still advocate for the question which says "who then created God",

I could say that since you also claim the universe is eternal and this universe created itself with you being in it which means the universe created you, then who created the universe?

bkool7:
There is no end to numbers.


Ever heard of Googolplex?
Numbers have no beginning and ending

As such, God exist , He endless and can make things endless.

Those saying everything has beginning and ending should give me the 1st and last numbers .
Then i will give up that God was created

You are going with the wrong step dude
Numbers are just signs, can you prove that numbers exist

obinna58:
You are going with the wrong step dude
Numbers are just signs, can you prove that numbers exist

Numbers are just a deliberate construct of man to make meaning of things we do not understand. What the numbers symbolize or represent exist which was why man needed numbers to understand them.

As long as the things numbers symbolize can be replicated endlessly then numbers themselves can be said to be endless.

If we get to gazillion man would simply create another level of numbers like metabrazillion or advantogazillion

You see, the choice of what to call the numbers or symbolic numbers is all up to man but what the numbers represent caused man to create numbers.

butterflylion:
Numbers are just a deliberate construct of man to make meaning of things we do not understand. What the numbers symbolize or represent exist which was why man needed numbers to understand them.

As long as the things numbers symbolize can be replicated endlessly then numbers themselves can be said to be endless.

If we get to gazillion man would simply create another level of numbers like metabrazillion or advantogazillion

You see, the choice of what to call the numbers or symbolic numbers is all up to man but what the numbers represent caused man to create numbers.

And that dude is claiming that numbers do exist but has no beginning or ending

obinna58:
And that dude is claiming that numbers do exist but has no beginning or ending

Well numbers do exist! As long as what the numbers symbolize exist and as long as man keeps trying to understand them by constructing numbers then yes numbers do exist! MAN MADE NUMBERS TO EXIST!

if you had 20 apples and had no knowledge of numbers you would simply see them as " many of the same kind of fruit" but with no specifics. Man "created" numbers for sake of accountability and order.

So if man created numbers for these reasons then to man numbers exist because "to man" numbers are inextricably linked to what they symbolize.

butterflylion:
Well numbers do exist! As long as what the numbers symbolize exist and as long as man keeps trying to understand them by constructing numbers then yes numbers do exist! MAN MADE NUMBERS TO EXIST!

if you had 20 apples and had no knowledge of numbers you would simply see them as " many of the same kind of fruit" but with no specifics. Man "created" numbers for sake of accountability and order.

So if man created numbers for these reasons then to man numbers exist because "to man" numbers are inextricably linked to what they symbolize.

We are not talking about symbols, symbol can be used as a character for conventional representation of an object,
Number is just a sign, they don't exist
I mean it can't be proven

obinna58:
We are not talking about symbols, symbol can be used as a character for conventional representation of an object,
Number is just a sign, they don't exist
I mean it can't be proven

Numbers themselves ARE SYMBOLS! 1234567890 , I, II, III, IV, V VI VII VIII, IX, X are all symbols WITH NAMES ASCRIBED TO THEM.

hope you get it now.

butterflylion:
If something is said to be eternal it means it holds no value for a beginning and no value for an end. So it is just a constant and has no end point and no starting point.

No, rather we can say it's beginning and end is unknown and indeterminate. That you don't know my age doesn't make you conclude I don't have an age that can be represented in values.

Once something is said to be eternal then the issue of being created or creating itself becomes baseless simply because being created or creating itself would point to it having at least a beginning even if no ending. That alone defeats the word ETERNAL!

The universe of course have beginning and if there should be a god, he must also have a beginning

What makes man speak about creation or a lack of creation in terms of Gods eternity or in this case your talk about the eternal universe is like you said "the universe is indeterminate ".

This means you can only observe the universe within your limits and within the limits of what the observable universe has to offer and this in itself is within the confines of time. Time itself is a construct of an existing eternity which I would refer to as TIME with capitals.

time as we know it was a simple construct by man to measure their observations but this time was pulled out from TIME which was there before man emerged or even before the universe emerged.

the word eternity on its own is a human construct. And if it is not within human limit to know when god was created, adopting the word eternal therefore breaks that limitation for it has brought the knowledge into existence. Using the word eternal or indeterminate is just to help answer some of life's toughest questions. If you say that (@bolded), then why conclude god existed outside the confines of time?

TIME is continuous and a constant but mans time which was pulled from an already running and eternal TIME is limited to the limitations of man itself.

Time is time! You are only confusing yourself by manufacturing man's time and eternal time. All we know is TIME so stop confusing yourself!

I could argue that the observable properties man says the universe holds were named by man based on their limitations but if there were other life forms out there they would also give properties of their own to the universe which would not agree with man's construct.

If this is not a wishful thought, then tell me how you came to this conclusion. Or best, let's define things within our reach and understanding than speaking from assumptions and imaginations of things that doesn't exist. Be like na too much Hollywood dey worry you. You theist explain things like extraterrestrial beings.

If other intelligent life forms existed, matter as we call it would be known as something else to them and would probably also have their own values which they got by observing within their own limits as well wouldn't you agree?

I don't agree, and I don't know. But I will like you to tell me the values animals use to observe within their own limit. They are a different life form. You can also explain their own concept of time. Abeg stop all these imaginations. You have one imaginary friend already and that is the much I can deal with

Since you say the universe is eternal which shows you are an advocate of evolution, and we say God is eternal yet you still advocate for the question which says "who then created God",

Keep evolution aside. I don't discuss things I am not knowledgeable about at least >60%.

I could say that since you also claim the universe is eternal and this universe created itself with you being in it which means the universe created you, then who created the universe?

I don't know!

author=chemystery post=60117011]No, rather we can say it's beginning and end is unknown and indeterminate. That you don't know my age doesn't make you conclude I don't have an age that can be represented in values.

The word indeterminate being a word in existence was created for such a purpose as this. When something is indeterminate it means in a broad sense that what would enable its determination is unavailable so it cannot be defined or established within the known parameters available.


indeterminate
adjective
not exactly known, established, or defined.

The universe of course have beginning and if there should be a god, he must also have a beginning

This can only be true if that God was never said to be eternal and also this would be true if the universe was also said to be eternal but science has proven that the universe BEGAN AT SOME POINT. the eternal universe claim is science fiction and no credible scientist looks at it twice because it can, never be scientifically proven. Why this is an impossible thing for science to prove is because for proof to be available then our known universe must be able to overlap another multiverse at some point and we should be able to identify where and when they overlapped and you and I know that is an impossibility. Plus the string theory which hypothesises some of this can also not be proven.

the word eternity on its own is a human construct. And if it is not within human limit to know when god was created, adopting the word eternal therefore breaks that limitation for it has brought the knowledge into existence. Using the word eternal or indeterminate is just to help answer some of life's toughest questions. If you say that (@bolded), then why conclude god existed outside the confines of time?

You do realise that there is always a reason behind the creation of words. Finite was created for sake of limit. Infinity was created for sake of limitlessness. Same way eternal is. Man is a finite being so because we are finite beings we are limited in our concept of eternity. If there was a man who has ever lived since sciences touted big bang then such a man would have been in a better position to give a deeper insight of what eternal looks like because he has tasted a much larger portion of mans finite time.

Time is time! You are only confusing yourself by manufacturing man's time and eternal time. All we know is TIME so stop confusing yourself!

I am manufacturing nothing! Time isn't simply time . Time was there before our time began! Simple. Our time did not just begin, it began within something else that was already there and existing! It just simply took a part of that which was already there before it came especially since it exists within that which already existed, it's only logical to have some of the attributes of that which it exists within.

If this is not a wishful thought, then tell me how you came to this conclusion. Or best, let's define things within our reach and understanding than speaking from assumptions and imaginations of things that doesn't exist. Be like na too much Hollywood dey worry you. You theist explain things like extraterrestrial beings.

It's logical thinking and not wishful. I only said it due to your eternal universe or multiverse assumption and since we exist within the limits of our observable universe and you spoke of an eternal universe or a multiverse how then am I being a wishful thinker for saying that other life forms may exist in other multiverses and also talking about their own observable universe. Or do you think it's our own universe they would observe while being confined to theirs?

I don't agree, and I don't know. But I will like you to tell me the values animals use to observe within their own limit. They are a different life form. You can also explain their own concept of time. Abeg stop all these imaginations. You have one imaginary friend already and that is the much I can deal with

Animals respond to what terms we determine as man. For man 10 years is 10 years. For animals, 10 years is 10 years and so on and the reason is because we are the intelligent ones and we determined what time should look like and we see animals from the view of what we have determined. But an intelligent life form much like man in another universe would not agree with us simply because their universe would offer them something different from what ours holds.

Keep evolution aside. I don't discuss things I am not knowledgeable about at least >60%.

But you are already discussing the eternal universe which was meant to fully justify evolution or did you not know this?

I don't know!

Fair enough! Since you do not know does this not then confirm that our observations are limited to our observable universe?