₦airaland Forum

Teaser


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XK6zHDAFUL8

patches689:
Yes, I know thats why I made my post.

As carbines go, the R5 has a higher muzzle velocity than the standard service rifles of other nations (which are all carbines these days). [because 5.56×45mm NATO is a marvelous round]
You want to start a fight with kikuyu1 and his 7.62?

Just been reading about how 5.56×45 is kind of a double edged sword. It doesnt expand much on impact and has a small "yaw" leading to a higher probability of wounding an enemy soldier (at range) as apposed to killing - HOWEVER - because the round does not expand, it is excellent at penetrating light cover, which is great for bush-fighting.

Personally, I think there's a place for both 5.56 and 7.62 rounds.
The 5.56 for FIBUA, to minimise civilian collateral damage; and 7.62 out in the bush.
Incidentally, been thinking about a replacement for the R-series (cos we'll have to replace it at some point):
1) Most logical is a licence-produced Galil ACE in both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO - out obviously because politics;
2) And I keep circling back to the CZ Bren 2, in both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO.

Licence-produced of course, and achieving economies of scale through equipping both SANDF and SAPS.

NNS The Shiroro and Ose, two new coastal patrollers of the type FPB 72 constructed by Ocea

frumentius:
Personally, I think there's a place for both 5.56 and 7.62 rounds.
The 5.56 for FIBUA, to minimise civilian collateral damage; and 7.62 out in the bush.
Incidentally, been thinking about a replacement for the R-series (cos we'll have to replace it at some point):
1) Most logical is a licence-produced Galil ACE in both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO - out obviously because politics;
2) And I keep circling back to the CZ Bren 2, in both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO.

Licence-produced of course, and achieving economies of scale through equipping both SANDF and SAPS.

why dont we just go 6.5mm with a galil frame. reduce the time needed to train on a new rifle, with 6.5mm we get some thing close to 7.6mm, but with far better velocity and energy at long range. meaning better penetration at long range. Any case with new body armour that russia and and the west are making we need a round that can punch through a lot of protection, 6.5mm could do the job. As for cost, we all ready make all our own ammo so it will only be a high cost at start but 6,5mm could become popular

Ratel 90 of Morocco.

andrewza:
why dont we just go 6.5mm with a galil frame. reduce the time needed to train on a new rifle, with 6.5mm we get some thing close to 7.6mm, but with far better velocity and energy at long range. meaning better penetration at long range. Any case with new body armour that russia and and the west are making we need a round that can punch through a lot of protection, 6.5mm could do the job. As for cost, we all ready make all our own ammo so it will only be a high cost at start but 6,5mm could become popular

6.5mm? Now you're speaking my language. I doubt though that Denel PMP would take the risk after our unique-grain 5.56 wasn't taken up by anyone else.
I don't ever see us buying anything Israeli, so Galil is out. I know the SSA closely collaborates with Mossad, but that's a different proposition to buying Israeli arms. And yes, the Galil ACE is my personal preference.
Short of our economy and therefore the defence budget improving drastically, coupled with a revamped modern force structure, I do not conceive our new rifle being anything but an AK/Galil derivative.
Which brings us back to the CZ Bren or an outside choice, the Polish Beryl. Outside because we have poor relations with Poland and the Beryl's 7.62 isn't NATO.
My hunter mates swear by the 6.5, but I've no experience on the cartridge. Time for the range, I think.

PICS completely unrelated

Odunayaw:
Yeah NDA shifted back from 5yrs to 4yrs

So its safe to assume Aca will keep using this?

I think its just for this year oo, and its only army cadets who spent four years. I fill its one of the reasons why SSC/DSSC applications have not been up this year.

So, I read something today on Beegeagle's Blog which to be charitable, I can only describe as an ignoramus' regurgitation of Turkish/Mangusta propaganda.
1) The Rooivalk does not cost $40m per unit: that figure was derived from some malcontents in Turkey taking the development cost and dividing it by number of units produced - hopefully we shall all shun such pronuoncements here now this innumeracy has been explained;

2)More egregious: "Rooivalk is a costly and finicky bird to maintain and support out in the field!!!"
This evidence-free lie really riles me: SAAF 16 Squadron has 10 helicopters in Bloemfontein (2 at TFDC- 1 for ongoing tests, and 1 damaged and on long-term storage) of which 3 are permanently in the DRC. Readiness Ratio (RR) is around 70-80% (global peacetime for AH is 65%), which translates to 4 Rooivalks ready and available locally to rotate. Which we do every 6 months to the DRC, for aircrafts, flight crew and technicians.

Every 6-month rotation, we deploy 15 ground technicians, 3 Rooivalke, and (6- 10: OPSEC) flight crew.
15 technicians for 3 Attack helicopters in a spartan 3rd world environment!!! And our AH is finicky!!! Never mind it was built for such and I've yet to peruse contradictory records?

3 Ukrainian Hinds have 45 ground technicians.
Even with those numbers they struggle to meet the UN Field Deployment RR of 90% availabality for air assets.

3 German Tiger in Mali require 60 ground technicians.

3 Dutch Apache in Mali had 90!

And some idiot says the Rooivalk - an AH developed specifically for African conditions, is finicky, costly and high-maintainance.
Evidence to the contrary will be most welcome.

...fin.

Our weapons are good, but Insha'llah shoot and pray is not for which they were designed.

frumentius:
So, I read something today on Beegeagle's Blog which to be charitable, I can only describe as an ignoramus' regurgitation of Turkish/Mangusta propaganda.
1) The Rooivalk does not cost $40m per unit: that figure was derived from some malcontents in Turkey taking the development cost and dividing it by number of units produced - hopefully we shall all shun such pronuoncements here now this innumeracy has been explained;

2)More egregious: "Rooivalk is a costly and finicky bird to maintain and support out in the field!!!"
This evidence-free lie really riles me: SAAF 16 Squadron has 10 helicopters in Bloemfontein (2 at TFDC- 1 for ongoing tests, and 1 damaged and on long-term storage) of which 3 are permanently in the DRC. Readiness Ratio (RR) is around 70-80% (global peacetime for AH is 65%), which translates to 4 Rooivalks ready and available locally to rotate. Which we do every 6 months to the DRC, for aircrafts, flight crew and technicians.

Every 6-month rotation, we deploy 15 ground technicians, 3 Rooivalke, and (6- 10: OPSEC) flight crew.
15 technicians for 3 Attack helicopters in a spartan 3rd world environment!!! And our AH is finicky!!! Never mind it was built for such and I've yet to peruse contradictory records?

3 Ukrainian Hinds have 45 ground technicians.
Even with those numbers they struggle to meet the UN Field Deployment RR of 90% availabality for air assets.

3 German Tiger in Mali require 60 ground technicians.

3 Dutch Apache in Mali had 90!

And some idiot says the Rooivalk - an AH developed specifically for African conditions, is finicky, costly and high-maintainance.
Evidence to the contrary will be most welcome.

Most South African gear even the gear we import are meant to be easy to maintain in terms of cost, man power and resources. Though the rooivalk is high maintaince if compared to say a gazelle with gun pods on the side. I mean does Nigeria even need a a attack helicopter. BH has no real Armour and no real Anti Air. More light armed recon helicopters would do them better. And the gazelle, A10, lynx, extra can carry rocket pods, gun pods and passengers. Cheap to run and if Nigeria has a real war you can all ways carry Hot 2 ATGMs on a gazelle, ingwen ATGMs on a A10, extra and there are the few mi24s all ready in serves

andrewza:
Most South African gear even the gear we import are meant to be easy to maintain in terms of cost, man power and resources. Though the rooivalk is high maintaince if compared to say a gazelle with gun pods on the side. I mean does Nigeria even need a a attack helicopter. BH has no real Armour and no real Anti Air. More light armed recon helicopters would do them better. And the gazelle, A10, lynx, extra can carry rocket pods, gun pods and passengers. Cheap to run and if Nigeria has a real war you can all ways carry Hot 2 ATGMs on a gazelle, ingwen ATGMs on a A10, extra and there are the few mi24s all ready in serves

No pissing contest please. Let's stick to the merits of the issue.

andrewza:
Most South African gear even the gear we import are meant to be easy to maintain in terms of cost, man power and resources. Though the rooivalk is high maintaince if compared to say a gazelle with gun pods on the side. I mean does Nigeria even need a a attack helicopter. BH has no real Armour and no real Anti Air. More light armed recon helicopters would do them better. And the gazelle, A10, lynx, extra can carry rocket pods, gun pods and passengers. Cheap to run and if Nigeria has a real war you can all ways carry Hot 2 ATGMs on a gazelle, ingwen ATGMs on a A10, extra and there are the few mi24s all ready in serves

Why are Rooivalk helicopters deployed to DRC? Do M23 revels possess any form of armor or AA?

At least we know BHTs field haven’t any aircraft guns, why are sophisticated attack helos being used by SAAF to chase hoodlums and ragamuffins in DRC.

And there we go. Jake, you really should've left alone. Now we'll be deluged with nonsense.
Oh well, lovely day to go riding.

jakeporeshenko:
Why are Rooivalk helicopters deployed to DRC? Do M23 revels possess any form of armor or AA?

At least we know BHTs field haven’t any aircraft guns, why are sophisticated attack helos being used by SAAF to chase hoodlums and ragamuffins in DRC.

He's coming for you to chestbeat without zero proof.

Is SAAF battling with terrorism? Why do you guys need a attack helicopter?

Its Sunday gentleman, cease fire

Me thinks andrewza's post is innocent.

Nigerdeltaboi:
Its Sunday gentleman, cease fire

they had already loaded 108mm arty shells in the tubes and were placing the firing pins when you gave the order
sir

Cannonleo:
they had already loaded 108mm arty shells in the tubes and were placing the firing pins when you gave the order
sir

frumentius:
And there we go. Jake, you really should've left alone. Now we'll be deluged with nonsense.
Oh well, lovely day to go riding.

So somehow this is my fault ?

tdayof:
Is SAAF battling with terrorism? Why do you guys need a attack helicopter?

Yeah it’s not like they are fighting any “real wars”

jakeporeshenko:
So somehow this is my fault ?

No. I'm saying he was replying to me, and I dealt with it.

Chinese made SFQ2040 4x4 vehicles with eight FN-6 surface-to-air missiles.defense systems

Nigerian navy SBS

horlams:
Me thinks andrewza's post is innocent.

Didn't you get the memo about self-esteem and patriotism?

frumentius:
No pissing contest please. Let's stick to the merits of the issue.

wasbnot a pissing contest. just pointing out Nigeria does not a new attack helicopter. they have Mi24s and they would be better of with more actually helicopters and you can buy a light gazzel for far less than a Mi28 or Rooivalk. I have all ways wanted SAAF to look in to converting the A109 in to a light attack helicopter. In a COIN and Peace keeping/enforcement they could do a lot of missions the rooivalk currently do like recon, convoy escort, escorting transports extra extra leaving the high end stuff for the dangerous missions

frumentius:

Btw,you Saffers are wayyyy to casual with your gun security! I know for many of you gun ownership is civic responsibility but secure your guns,goddammit! You leave your Glocks,Brownings and Ceskas forgotten on sofas,glove compartments and drawers. You have the same attitude with shotties and rifles.
Here in Kenya you lose your ishyt to a dude like this and you may be jailed for carelessness;at the very least blacklisted from gun ownership.

Edit: do you use your old R1s as platoon level DMRs as the pic shows?

jakeporeshenko:
Why are Rooivalk helicopters deployed to DRC? Do M23 revels possess any form of armor or AA?

At least we know BHTs field haven’t any aircraft guns, why are sophisticated attack helos being used by SAAF to chase hoodlums and ragamuffins in DRC.

What do we have. transport helicopters and a rooivalk.

kikuyu1:
Btw,you Saffers are wayyyy to casual with your gun security! I know for many of you gun ownership is civic responsibility but secure your guns,goddammit! You leave your Glocks,Brownings and Ceskas forgotten on sofas,glove compartments and drawers. You have the same attitude with shotties and rifles.
Here in Kenya you lose your ishyt to a dude like this and you may be jailed for carelessness;at the very least blacklisted from gun ownership.

if those a live shot gun rounds that safe is in violating of the law. all so

patches689:
...

The mag isn't regulation! Damage to government property!!!

frumentius:
So, I read something today on Beegeagle's Blog which to be charitable, I can only describe as an ignoramus' regurgitation of Turkish/Mangusta propaganda.
1) The Rooivalk does not cost $40m per unit: that figure was derived from some malcontents in Turkey taking the development cost and dividing it by number of units produced - hopefully we shall all shun such pronuoncements here now this innumeracy has been explained;

2)More egregious: "Rooivalk is a costly and finicky bird to maintain and support out in the field!!!"
This evidence-free lie really riles me: SAAF 16 Squadron has 10 helicopters in Bloemfontein (2 at TFDC- 1 for ongoing tests, and 1 damaged and on long-term storage) of which 3 are permanently in the DRC. Readiness Ratio (RR) is around 70-80% (global peacetime for AH is 65%), which translates to 4 Rooivalks ready and available locally to rotate. Which we do every 6 months to the DRC, for aircrafts, flight crew and technicians.

Every 6-month rotation, we deploy 15 ground technicians, 3 Rooivalke, and (6- 10: OPSEC) flight crew.
15 technicians for 3 Attack helicopters in a spartan 3rd world environment!!! And our AH is finicky!!! Never mind it was built for such and I've yet to peruse contradictory records?

3 Ukrainian Hinds have 45 ground technicians.
Even with those numbers they struggle to meet the UN Field Deployment RR of 90% availabality for air assets.

3 German Tiger in Mali require 60 ground technicians.

3 Dutch Apache in Mali had 90!

And some idiot says the Rooivalk - an AH developed specifically for African conditions, is finicky, costly and high-maintainance.
Evidence to the contrary will be most welcome.

My source http://nationsdawnofanera.weebly.com/-helicopters.html

says 45 mn $.

HAL LCH US$30.00 mln

Tiger HAD US$74.00 mln

mi 35 US$16.00 mln

AH 1 Cobra US$20.00 mln

AH 1 Zulu US$40.00 mln

I trust them! I've already given my own opinion on the Rooivalk which is this:its a great frame;truly it is. Your readiness rate shows its not a hangar queen but here's the thing. A lite version Rooivalk 2.0 with a correspondingly lower Flyaway cost would've sold. Also global geopolitics really doesn't support any non first world country entering this highly specialised market niche. You do know how the US nixed the UK deal just as they were dotting the i's on a buy agreement. Same thing with Malaysia,IIRC.
Watch how the Indian LCH finds buyers in contrast to the Rooivalk.