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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. (5265 Views)
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Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by spongeisback: 7:30pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
701ecilana:I called you by your name girly, why're you angry?! |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by 701ecilana: 7:41pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
spongeisback:Okay, i'm dumb and you are Smart thank you, but tonite is not a nite for vitriol, we shall have a discussion. I CALLED YOU OUT, Now, tell me how life began base on what you believe. |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by spongeisback: 7:44pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
701ecilana:Lemme guess your other moniker was banned right? You may think you're making a case for your god but trust me you aren't. Just leave me alone. Please |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by Horlufemi(m): 7:55pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
ifenes: It's logical in believing there is a Creator than believing life forming from nothing. There is a creator shikena. |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by Horlufemi(m): 8:08pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
ZandhaZaraZ: We are not going that far. I'm just here to establish that Evolution is false and there is a creator. There is surely a creator whether it to was created or not is not the bone of contention here. Let's start by accepting that there is a creator. The creator "may" be living in a prime reality. Time and space is interwoven. The creator could transcend time and space. There is no need for the creator to be created. |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by 701ecilana: 8:09pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
I called you out here so face me. ZandhaZaraZ:What you said there makes absolutely no sense. Pls elucidate more on the bolded. ZandhaZaraZ:WHAT do you mean by 'existence IS ETERNAL'? What is Existence? Is it matter or antimatter? i.e, is it a thing or an energy or an object? For anything to exist, it must either be living or non living. It must have the power of consciousness and must have motion or the lack of it. it must have a time line, it must have a time it began and it must end. Everything that exists began so must end, but you are not talking about things which exists, but exiatence itsekf Now, again, what do you mean by eternal existence? ZandhaZaraZ:Again, You have said nothing. When you say it, do you mean 'it' that is existence is a thing? |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by 701ecilana: 8:12pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
spongeisback:You can't call me dumb and ask to be left alone, you'll prove my dumbness by presenting your points. How did life begin? From your belief system o, not mine. |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by hopefulLandlord: 8:12pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
Horlufemi: Evolution does not say "there's no creator" it beats me how theists talk on and on about something they lack even the most basic knowledge about |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by Horlufemi(m): 8:15pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
hopefulLandlord: what does evolution say? I'm all ears |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by vaxx: 8:21pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
hopefulLandlord:lol you want scientific explanation on the matter I provide it......,I was expecting you to refute it....cosmological argument state the process has a cause which science agree .......but the cause is unknown to science .......because it is far above science limitation..... Your questions here is on the universe...... The universe has a manufacturing date ........and scientists put it to be around 13 billion years ago.......that is my point bro..... You don't know and that make your logic become ignorance of the gap fallacy.... So to the question again.......is it because science do not know the process.that caused the process that made you become an atheist.? why don't you know as a person? Pls specific answer to you only..... Do you rely on science, for any evidence that is above your logic and scope? |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by Nobody: 8:22pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
701ecilana:I'm still trying to forget you. I don't debate with bitches and retarrds. Any further mentions from you will be ignored. |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by vaxx: 8:22pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
ScienceWatch:bro, I will be glad if you can get me the name... |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by Nobody: 8:24pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
Horlufemi:This is an IRRELEVANT argument. Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life on EARTH, let alone the origin of the UNIVERSE in its entirety. There is surely a creator whether it to was created or not is not the bone of contention here.Whether it was created or not is RELEVANT and INDISPENSABLE to the argument. Since the entire argument is that everything that began to exist must have a creator, so if your alleged creator also has a creator, that automatically defeats your argument. And, you mentioned it yourself that information can't create itself. That would mean your God, who MUST be made of information, couldn't have created himself either, and the same thing applies to his creator, ad infinitum. You either accept an ETERNAL universe, or an [IMPOSSIBLE, irrational] infinite regress. Let's start by accepting that there is a creator.There is no creator. The universe doesn't have a beginning. The creator "may" be living in a prime reality.Who told you that being transcendent forbids one from being created? Weren't the angels and demons CREATED? Don't they transcend time and space? Your point here is invalid. 3 Likes |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by hopefulLandlord: 8:34pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
vaxx: using that explanation to buttress "The universe began to exist" is a definite foul, I can see the problem here, it seems you've heard the cosmological argument so many times that you think its a definite fact, cosmologists have called out theologians many times for misrepresenting their findings just like you're doing now You don't know and that make your logic become ignorance of the gap fallacy.... Nope, I'm aware of the gap, so I'm definitely not ignorant of the gap, I see a gap while people like you simply plug god into that gap
its because we don't know/ we are yet to know; it is what it is, nobody knows; anyone that claims to know, is either making guesses/ lying 4 Likes |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by 701ecilana: 8:35pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
ZandhaZaraZ:Read slowly. You used the word 'Infinitum, meaning never ending. YHWH is not a thing, He is a Spirit and spirits are infinite. He is forever, not created by any other. Now, let's come down to creation, creation is act performed by Him. Every created thing has a beginning and an end, but He is not a created being. You can not create energy. In responding to a similar question, Jesus answered and said, 'It's like the wind, you don't know it, you cant see it, you can't hold it, you don't know where it's coming from or going to. But you feel it on your skin, if you understand that, then you can understand God. ZandhaZaraZ:You mean the Universe has always been? Like it didn't come to be by a Big Bang and was not created? What do you mean SOMETHING MUST EXIST? Every existing thing has a beginning 'Time' hence, it must end. Whatever exists must have consciousness and motion or the lack of it. So pls explain what you mean by that. ZandhaZaraZ:You have no where to hold on to do you? Nothingness is impossible, and creation is impossible, how then did life begin? Whatever is existing now has always existed like what? |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by hopefulLandlord: 8:36pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
Horlufemi: evolution does not say anything about the origin of life, it only talks about the diversification of lifeforms |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by 701ecilana: 8:42pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
hopefulLandlord:@bolded, so what is this thing which existed before? Note: God doesn't exists because existence goes with time, and He is timeless. |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by vaxx: 8:42pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
hopefulLandlord:I still want to know the foul argument.....can you kindly indicate it ? I want to see the foul..... You don't know why? Do you base the unknown knowledge on science inability to explain it.... I don't want to accept you are doging this question To me I will called it ignorance........because you are lacking the knowledge of the orignal origin of the universe.... I know , so why don't you hear it from me...... If I don't know I ask so that I can be remove from ignorance world....... |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by 701ecilana: 8:45pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
ZandhaZaraZ:See how you are show casing your emptiness. You are smart abi? I challenge you to prove my dumbness. You'll ignore becos you not debate me Darkrebel. |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by hopefulLandlord: 8:51pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
vaxx: big bang never created anything which is the most sensible thing to do, history favours this type of thinking over simpletons that simply call anything science has not explained as "goddidit", so many things in the past that god was used as explanation for has been unraveled and no god was found, so forgive me for not accepting the god hypothesis, I would not and I cannot accept it as its simply lazy thinking
there's absolutely no knowledge you posses about the universe that science doesn't! the only thing you pretend to be knowledge that science doesn't posses only exist in your own head with NO evidence whatsoever non sequitur, the god hypothesis is simply filled with ignorance At the end of the day “God” is nothing more than a chimera: part fear, part hope, part ever-shrinking sum of what we do not yet understand. 5 Likes |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by hopefulLandlord: 8:54pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
701ecilana: what does it mean to he timeless? |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by vaxx: 9:01pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
hopefulLandlord:i had settle you first assumption by providing science explanation that the universe has a date she was born.....and that is around 13 Billions years ago ..... Scientists say so not believer.....so where is believer failing now? Nothing is impotent..... The universe can not begin from from nothing.. It must be from something..... I had deal with this topic honorably.....you can check my topic..... No balance believer will say the universe came from nothing..... That is illogical..... I have gotten the knowledge that science can not disprove or proof .....it is the knowledge of the process..... i know him by his attribute...therefore I am not ignorant anymore....... You are avoiding my question...... |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by hopefulLandlord: 9:11pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
vaxx: "has a date she was born" talk of circular reasoning all you've done so far is misrepresent the big bang theory to fit the cosmological argument "The universe began to exist" has never been proven by anybody in your previous post here you've admitted the universe did exist in another form before the big bang
that's interesting, you've gotten the knowledge science can prove/disprove hahaha and that knowledge is the knowledge of the process, you happen to know the process and you found god, lol classic god of the gaps, seems we've gotten to the end of it, where you see god while I see ignorance 3 Likes |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by vaxx: 9:23pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
hopefulLandlord:I don't want us to have a circular debate..... It has been proving by scientist that the universe has a starting date.....the universe began to exist around 13 bllion years ago....that is science explanation... In my previous post, where do I admit that error? That is absolutely illogical if I said So....can you post that my illogical comment.....I want to tell myself I am wrong.... Am very scientific and also rational.....i dont fall into ignorance of the gap fallacy....... The universe has a caused and the cause is olodumare ...aka God.., Where you see ignorance....i see enlightenment You are really avoiding my question l 1 Like 1 Share |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by ifenes(m): 9:27pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
Horlufemi: Do you know what a creator is tho ? |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by hopefulLandlord: 9:30pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
vaxx:EVEN IF we concede the entire Kalam Cosmological argument as true, it does not prove the existence of a god. Not even a little bit. As Hitchens once opined, "all your work is still ahead of you." It doesn't even make it more plausible than an all-natural, no-god-needed cause From a simple man's point of view, corollary from the Kalam Cosmological argument proof, that God caused the universe, is not self-evident. Yet theists pass it off as such. Here's how your argument goes 1: Whatever begins to exist had a cause 2: The universe began to exist 3: Therefore, the universe had a cause 4: Corollary: God was that cause For those that don't just believe in a god, ASSUMING the base Kalam Cosmological argument logic is complete, there seems to be a whole lot missing between 3 and 4. The only corollary that one can logically conclude -- again, assuming the base Kalam Cosmological argument is complete -- is that our understanding is incomplete. Could it be a god? Maybe. But there's nothing provided in the argument that would logically lead to that conclusion. see? even if I'm being as charitable as I could, its all guesses and gaps |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by Horlufemi(m): 9:50pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
hopefulLandlord: Lolz. The Bible of evolution says. "Origin of Species". And most scientists use as a proof that there is no Creator |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by vaxx: 9:52pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
hopefulLandlord:The strong argument provided is the proof to establish the cause for the universe creation..... that science was unable to prove.. So tell me what is missing here? My argumenti is base on cosmological arguments as it is referring to the Process that caused the process...if a universe begin to exist , she must have a causer that made it possible to exist.... So where is my error here? Stop using that clause ... Our knowledge is incomplete..... As for me on the subject matter, my knowledge is complete...... Am out of ignorance..... Do not be charitable...... Connter claim the logic.... You may be right anyway..... Let see your argument.... I have provide an answet to what you don't know......so tell me it is not true....proof it... Why are you avoiding my question? Why don't you know? Is it because science is ignorance? |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by Horlufemi(m): 9:55pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
ZandhaZaraZ: Let's stop digressing and focus here. I only want to know if you agree that Code cannot write itself. The information in the DNA where did it come from. Let's leave who created the creator for now. We are discussing codes vs patterns. Let's stay in topic The information in the DNA where did it come from. As code cannot write itself. No assumptions no digressing Focus on this simple task. |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by DarkRebel69: 11:27pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
You can tell Dan Brown is one remarkable genius when the contents of his novel spark off a "disjointed" argument on Nairaland. It's a very disjointed argument I must say. Some people ought not to even try arguing out such topics yet. I think they'd be the better for it should they divert their resources and time towards improving their grammar. Logic is a function of grammar (however subjective you might argue that logic is, it's still a form of logic nonetheless). If someone is incapable of arranging his/her sentences, premises, or ideas in a sequential and proper fashion, then how can such a person be trusted to debate logically on such a logic-demanding topic? And, why was the OP trying to pass this off as his own idea by not crediting the source? His entire post (the whole "Pattern vs Code" yarn) were verbatim extracts from a conversation between Robert Langdon and Ambra Vidal (Dan Brown's “Origin”). It was a very interesting analogy by Robert Langdon (I can't believe I'm talking about a "fictional character" as if he were real). You know what I find laughable? When theists, creationists (or whatever they call themselves these days), try to leverage the complexity of the human DNA (which is a "code" according to Robert's analogy) as justification for the existence of a creator God. It's "God of the gaps" at best. In those benighted years in human history, the complexity of the solar eclipse was also said to have been resultant of some divine intervention. But would you say such today? Just as someone ingeniously pointed out, even if we were to assume that the human DNA is a very intricate code which could not have happened by some cosmic accident, but rather by the designation of a far superior and intelligent consciousness, then wouldn't that mean that this very intelligent consciousness—who was intelligent enough to create something as complex as the human DNA—was also the product of a far more intelligent consciousness? The creation of an organic complexity after all warrants that its creator be a much more complex complexity than it is. It's simple, really. The human DNA is code, because it contains genetic information, right? And your argument is that something as complex and purposeful as that (just like the "musical notations" Robert cited) could not have happened by accident. You then attributed the creation of the human DNA to a superior entity, yes? But wouldn't that mean that this superior entity is much more complex than the human DNA and humans in general, and so require a much more complex creator, who in turn requires much more a complex creator, and so on, and so on, and so on. But that would be a logical fallacy because that would be to suggest the possibility of an infinite regress. My problem with creationists is that their imagination begins and ends with the creator god in their little fantasy books. They argue that man is too complex to have happened by accident, and so he must have had a creator. But it seems their imagination either reaches its elastic limits or suddenly becomes too timorous, because they always fail to extend that same bit of logic to their creator god. Why do we also always fall into the habit of presuming the singularity of this so-called "creator god"? Why is it not ever "creator GODS"? I know in movies (and perhaps in real life too) there are always the bad guys who answer to a smaller ring of bad guys, and who in turn answer to the main bad guy (the brain behind it all). Just like a pyramid tapers as it rises, in most social situations, there is always that one guy at the helm piloting the affairs of those at the bottom. Isn't it evident that we are borrowing from our very limited human experience and vocabulary, and applying these experiential limitations in trying to explain a phenomenon that we are hardly equipped to understand? The idea of a god, or gods, or intelligent consciousness (or the plurarity of this intelligent consciousness) is not an entirely ludicrous proposition, and neither are their scientific counterparts. Abductive reasoning after all allows that inference be drawn from that which offers the best possible explanation. It's logical enough to reason that man being a complex creature with the ability to create things must, too, have being created by a much more complex creator. It's also logical to argue that there is no creator god, because observable reality shows that for every effect there exists a cause, thereby making the proposition of an "Uncaused Causer" (as Thomas Aquinas dubbed it) not only illogical but also very highly improbable. What is ludicrous (and borderline idiötic) is the ominium-gatherum of lousy, lazy, and incongrous fables which have been dreamed up to support the idea of the existence of this creator god (or gods). My point is: "the idea per se is not stupïd, but the various interpretations (i.e. all religions under the sun, their theology inclusive) are all möronic. 3 Likes |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by GooseBaba: 11:35pm On Oct 28, 2017 |
If we must say there is a creator of this majestic DNA. Then each one of us must agree that the creator is the God's of our ancestors. Not the God of other people's ancestors. So yes! My God created DNA. Meanwhile, Blueagent...dem swear for you. I'm an Urhobo man. Who bask in his ancestral teachings. Warn ya sef. Don't tag me with atheistic thread. Besides, I prefer atheist than foreign diety worshipping theist. 2 Likes 1 Share |
Re: Patterns Vs Codes. Certainly There Is A Sort Of Creator That We Don't Know. by Ranchhoddas: 4:20am On Oct 29, 2017 |
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