9inches:
{2 Thessalonians 2:14-16} To this He called you through our gospel, so that you may share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brothers, stand firm and cling to the traditions we taught you, whether by speech or by letter.

@brocab, what did Apostle Paul mean by 'traditions taught by speech?'

brocab:
It seems you are looking for the answers-in no way have you produced your interpretation, how you see these verses..
{2 Thessalonians 2:13-15} But we should and are [morally] obligated [as debtors] always to give thanks to God for you, believers beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through the sanctifying work of the Spirit [that sets you apart for God’s purpose] and by your faith in the truth [of God’s word that leads you to spiritual maturity].
Again I say it-the traditions are the traditions of God-either by teaching, either by word, and either by letter, we now call the bible.
It was to this end that He called you through our gospel [the good news of Jesus’ death, burial, and resurrection] so that you may obtain and share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold [tightly] to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

9inches:


Are both the word (oral tradition) and the letter (written tradition) included in the bible?

quote author=Ubenedictus post=64203079] where is this written?
why do you imagine that apostolic tradition will contradict apostolic writing?

1. the time Timothy was written it wasn't considered scripture, it was just a letter Paul wrote.

nowhere is it written that the apostolic tradition were all put in the epistles, in fact that is a lie, if it was true Paul wouldn't have wrote in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

he knew clearly that the apostolic teaching/tradition came in two forms both written and unwritten. in fact just as the written word was kept so too was the unwritten tradition kept and preserved in the Church, in fact the Bible tells us so.

And the things you have heard me say in the
presence of many witnesses entrust to reliable people
who will also be qualified to teach others. 2 Tim 2:2.

that shows the importance of those unwritten tradition because the apostle explicitly commanded that they must be kept and held on to and passed down from generation to generation.

that is why the ancient Churches are unique because they hold the word of God as the Bible says they should be held, both the written and the unwritten tradition. they go back and check the writings and practices of the early Christians and what has been passed down from them.

so that every belief in the Church is traced to the apostles through their written teachings and the unwritten ones they committed to the Church.

that is why the Bible does not teach that scripture is the sole rule of faith, that is why the early Christians never believed that the Bible was the sole rule of faith, in fact that idea of sola scriptura is a heresy invented by Martin Luther 1500years after the apostles.

you are following a doctrine invented by Martin Luther, tradition of men.

brocab:
I am not arguing with you-maybe it's time you come up with the answers, I have no-idea what traditions you are preferring too. And how do you follow these traditions if they aren't written in the Word of God? And what traditions do you follow? explain them to me, like I said if it isn't written it isn't there. Plus in what name did these traditions came, who gave you the authority to follow these traditions?

9inches:
Good. I'm sure I got your mind working hard to figure that out. But to answer your question, the traditions are passed down from generation to generation, to our present generation. And will continue until the end of time.

9inches:

To make this more clear to you, take Apostle Paul for example. He obviously know a lot more than he wrote in his letters. Paul did not intend these letters to be kept for posterity. He wrote them to communicate with distant churches, to encourage, to cajole, to inform, and to respond to events that he had heard about. The reason they have been kept is because they are full of timeless wisdom, as well as being the earliest writings of the Church. The early Church members or early Christians obviously know more than just the written tradition because they were preached to orally and directly by the apostles who of course have most of the knowledge about Christ and His teachings.
So, this knowledge they possess has been passed down through ages and it remains within the Church.

9inches:

Now you understand why protestants like you were shortchanged by Luther. He had access to the complete teaching, both written and unwritten, but he gave his followers (including you) only the written (bible).

According to Paul's letter to Timothy (1 Timothy 3:15), The Church is the pillar and ground of truth; the Apostles and consequently their successors have the right to impose their doctrine; whosoever refuses to believe them shall be condemned, whosoever rejects anything is shipwrecked in the Faith. The content of the faith handed to the Church by Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit are Sacred Scripture (Bible)

9inches:


Good. I'm sure I got your mind working hard to figure that out. But to answer your question, the traditions are passed down from generation to generation, to our present generation. And will continue until the end of time.

To make this more clear to you, take Apostle Paul for example. He obviously know a lot more than he wrote in his letters. Paul did not intend these letters to be kept for posterity. He wrote them to communicate with distant churches, to encourage, to cajole, to inform, and to respond to events that he had heard about. The reason they have been kept is because they are full of timeless wisdom, as well as being the earliest writings of the Church. The early Church members or early Christians obviously know more than just the written tradition because they were preached to orally and directly by the apostles who of course have most of the knowledge about Christ and His teachings.

So, this knowledge they possess has been passed down through ages and it remains within the Church. Now if one of the members of the Church (Martin Luther) decides to secede from the Church and limit his teachings ONLY to the written tradition (bible), such a person can no longer teach all he he was taught because he has limited his scope only to the written (bible). Don't forget that Martin Luther was a priest and monk and had full knowledge of the teachings. But then, after he was excommunicated by the Church, he limited his Christianity to bible only (sola scriptura).

Now you understand why protestants like you were shortchanged by Luther. He had access to the complete teaching, both written and unwritten, but he gave his followers (including you) only the written (bible).

According to Paul's letter to Timothy (1 Timothy 3:15), The Church is the pillar and ground of truth; the Apostles and consequently their successors have the right to impose their doctrine; whosoever refuses to believe them shall be condemned, whosoever rejects anything is shipwrecked in the Faith. The content of the faith handed to the Church by Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit are Sacred Scripture (Bible) and Sacred or Apostolic Tradition. Both come from the one source - the word of God. This authority is therefore infallible. And this infallibility is guaranteed implicitly but directly by the promise of the Saviour in the Great Commission of the Church: "And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

brocab:
I have been saying it all along-Paul knew the Word of God-either by Word, by letter, or he wrote, everything Paul did-he didn't do it for himself he did it for God, Paul believed everything God had en-stored for him, these Word Paul spoke of, were directed from God.

brocab:
Listen we all sin, and we all fall sort of the glory of God, {"No one is good} but we have a loving God, who can forgive us, do we not walk according to God's will, then why do you find it hard to forgive Martin Luther, to forgive the protestants, to forgive the Judge? [/color]

9inches:

Are you now admitting that Martin Luther misled his followers by giving them only one part (written) instead of both parts (written and unwritten) of the Word of God?


God forgives a sinner who has repented and turn from his sinful ways. Martin Luther appeared about 1400 years after Christ and rejected the unwritten word of God after becoming a priest. By preaching to protestants that they ONLY need the bible, he misled many souls and has continued to do so till today. Unfortunately, he did not repent and change from his ways. Only God can judge him, not me.

brocab:
No I am not admitting against Martin Luther, nor against the Word of God-Ask yourself this, are you not a child of God, that not even the Holy Spirit can convict you, over your conviction you have against Martin Luther.
Are you a child of the law, or are you a child of Christ? Are you free, or are you in bondage..
Did Martin Luther sin against the Catholic Church-or did he sin against Christ?
Do you know Christ? Do you know Christ speaks through the written Word of God, as Martin Luther taught? Have you ever heard from Christ in Word? If yes, then why do you Judge your brother Martin Luther in Christ?

9inches:


I repeat, judgement is of God alone. What you and I both know is that Martin Luther discredited and rejected the unwritten word of God. The apostles of Jesus preached both the written and unwritten Word of God, and Christianity has been that way until the devil deceived Martin Luther to start teaching 'bible alone'. Bible (written word) alone doctrine is man-made by Martin Luther, it's not in line with what the bible says. Preaching the bible alone as a rule of faith is unbiblical.

9inches:


I repeat, judgement is of God alone. What you and I both know is that Martin Luther discredited and rejected the unwritten word of God. The apostles of Jesus preached both the written and unwritten Word of God, and Christianity has been that way until the devil deceived Martin Luther to start teaching 'bible alone'. Bible (written word) alone doctrine is man-made by Martin Luther, it's not in line with what the bible says. Preaching the bible alone as a rule of faith is unbiblical.

brocab:
[color=#000099]NO" Martin Luther discredited the Catholic Church this is what I know, Martin Luther led us to Christ through the written Word of God.
1500 years after Christ, and still Christ finds men of great faith, The bible was written by the apostles who were filled with the Holy Spirit. Preaching the Word of God is biblical, Martin Luther preached the bible..

brocab:
Is the unbiblical teaching, pray to Mary-pray to the saints, is this unbibical? Do we make idols and place them in church buildings is this unbiblical?
Or is this biblical because the Catholic Church claims it to be? Or you believe the Catholic Church holds the secrets of God under lock and key?
DO YOU NOT KNOW ITS THE SPIRIT WHO TEACHES US THE WORD OF GOD-ITS THE SPIRIT WHO HOLDS THE SECRETS OF GOD. FLESH CAN NOT HOLD THESE SECRETS?

9inches:

You are off the topic here. The point is, teaching bible only doctrine is unbiblical. God condemns those who cause divisions in the church because they do so without his approval. (I Cor. 11:18-19). Even the Ephesian church was warned that savage wolves would tear people away from the church (Acts. 20:28-29).

brocab:
You are right

9inches:


You're welcome!

This is for protestants like you who may desire to seek the truth and know God more: https://chnetwork.org/converts/

solite3:
what do you mean by unwritten and written word of God? You are sounding as if they are two different messages.
Whatever Paul wrote down are what he preached and that is the gospel.
Your church traditions are obviously not in agreement with scriptures.

9inches:


You're welcome!

This is for protestants like you who may desire to seek the truth and know God more: https://chnetwork.org/converts/

brocab:
For someone who winches about the things I paste, on this forum, and then lays this site upon me, really, its hypocritical.
These men and women who you claim have found the Catholic Church home, do not know God.
No man, who have a relationship with the Father will turn his back on Him, will bow down and worship another.
You don't understand, the Holy Spirit would never allow the Fathers children to return back into darkness, you don't understand, once we are in the light, we are having fellowship with the Father.
You don't understand, once God starts His work in you, He finishes it until His done. Meaning there's no darkness in the light.
People returning back to the Catholic Church seeking some sort of relief from men, do not know God..
And if these people, have left the protestant Church, to return back to the Catholic Church, these people never knew God, they were never saved to know Him..
Can't you see, it takes all kinds of people to fellowship in one place at one time, not only the protestant Church, the least of them are truly saved, while the rest of them, are into laws, rules and regulations, in politics, others for financial gain, all in all, these are the things the world can only offer.
Many are called, but few are chosen, the many are the branches that does not belong to the Vine, they broke of the vine, the few are the chosen who are grafted into the vine, we are His branches grafted into God's vine.
The many Churches don't know God, they sit in Church Sunday after Sunday, listening to a sermon they don't really care about, some of them just socialise with friends and family, maybe they are there because of a family tradition, or maybe the pastor told them they were going to heaven, maybe they are there because there parents told them to go, some go because of guilt, others go to be part of the fashion show, others like to be propitiated.
All in all, the many people will not see the kingdom of God. Neither will you, until you come out of the harlots of harlots, the Church that is filled with idolatry, the Church that denies the Word of God with a passion.

9inches:


You are all over the place, copying and pasting from websites. Most of what you post are not even under contention and has no bearing in this argument. I would think you should know what you are talking about instead of argument of copy and paste.

9inches:




The 4 colors highlight the issue I complained about. Copy and paste is different from posting links.

brocab:
This is someone like you who haven't the slightest idea, copying and pasting links is still copying and pasting, and on top of that, you had posted about people who haven't a clue about God, and this topic is about God..
The truth is, you don't know God, this is why you don't read nor recognise the above..The blind can only lead the blind..
It's a language you don't understand, because you don't walk in the spirit, because you don't understand the Spirit, and by their fruit we will know them..
And if you knew Him, then everything I had written lines up, with the truth.
The Catholic Church can claim what they like to claim, but the truth is, no truth is found in the Catholic Church.
It's your say, their say, you believe it belongs to God..And yet you can't provide the evidence to back it up-not by letter, nor by speech, not by word.

9inches:


The topic is about you disagreeing with the scripture on oral and written tradition/word of God. I have been able to show you where the bible said that Christians should receive and teach both the oral and the written.

9inches:


The topic is about you disagreeing with the scripture on oral and written tradition/word of God. I have been able to show you where the bible said that Christians should receive and teach both the oral and the written.

brocab:
No one is disagreeing about scripture, the traditions you talk about, that came from our old fathers, comes under the law of Moses, this law continual'ed after Christ came, only because the Pharisees loved the traditions of men, and in this day and age the Catholic Church still practices some of these laws, like many of the Jewish elders today-they are still waiting for the Messiah to arrive.

9inches:
You are confusing yourself. The tradition Paul and other Apostles preached is what I'm talking about.

brocab:
But you talk about the traditions of men,

9inches:

No, I talk about the tradition Paul talked about in 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

Paul says to the Church in Thessalonica: "So then, brothers and sisters, stand firm and hold fast to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter." The Catholic Church still maintains both, no other church does because Martin Luther has misled them.