₦airaland Forum

davidnazee:
You sound like the white men who distorts truth for their self gain.
It’s common knowledge Benin was the first kingdom to grow into an empire. Benin saw the birth and death of Oyo empire.

Benin Empire ruled over Yoruba lands east of Ife while Oyo took western Yoruba lands. Only Ife was left independent because of its spiritual and religious status.

FYI I will say it again; Ekiti, ondo, owo and Lagos were all vassal states under Benin.

No amount of ur lies can ever change that.

Y0ruba:
1. Ehen, please provide references to peered review articles of Archeology to back your claim up and I will concede. Several studies abound on Ife, Owo, Esie and Bini arts and guess what? Ife is regarded as the oldest of all. However, I will wait to learn something new from you. So please, share references.

2. Your point about bead seemed very aggressive. I was talking about the importance of bead use in the palace at different stages. Ife used it first and Benin adopted it royally much later when coral beads flooded coastal trades.

3. Benin became an Empire around 17th century, the same time Oyo had already reached its peak of expansion. How again did Bini conquer Yoruba? Owo is Yoruba’s border town to Bini but Bini never conquered Owo, it could not. Bini only occupied pockets of areas, small areas. It was not a military power outside of Edoid groups & their areas such as Esan, Auchi & so on. Outside Edo areas, it was not a power.

steveosaz:
Reading this comedy of errors made one crack up real hard. Probabilities upon probabilities is what you call your source of history?

'(Some say only his head)' can you imagine that? Some say it's the entire corpse others say only the head and this chap^^ went further to add his own fallacy when he said hairs and fingernails - jeez! This is someone sitting under a tree and simply writing history off his own imagination.

'Whenever a Benin Prince brought the remains of his predecessor(which no knows whether its the compete corpse or the head or fingernails and hairs), he also sought sanction from Ile Ife for his own succession'. This is where it leaves no one on doubt that this writer is a comedian of first grade. It would have made sense to had it been that was said of maybe the Alaafin of Oyo or any other king who usually go through a certain selection, but certainly not the Obaship of Benin. The Tradition in Benin has always been a hereditary monarchy such that only the heir apparent or crown prince who must also the the first male son of the king has the exclusive right of inheritance of the throne. Its a right bestowed exclusively by birth and not due to any non existing approval from Ife. The question then should be; in a situation where Ife rejects the crown prince, who then do they appoint? This has never been alluded to by anyone conversant with the working of the traditional stool in Benin and this writer was at best hallucinating.

Yet still, the mystery of all these back and forth arguments isn't in post Oduduwa Ife-Benin era but in the pre Oduduwa era of both cities, and that's where the Edo oral tradition clearly has an upper hand in logic and sensibility.

But as for this writer, his work is just garbage. A literary work based on too many conjectures is not good for reference - no authority.

Y0ruba:
Make I reach house send you snap shot of Egbarevba’s work on political struggles between Oba & certain Bini groups. You may know the details but I’ll share them nonetheless.

ACF Ryder had this to say about Ogiso’s period being true. Look at sentence with superscript 2 & the footnote appended to it.

Y0ruba:
Despite your logic here being unapplicable considering your references are inter-continental, I’ll take you on the ride nonetheless.

The British conquered her immediate environment and spread out to New world, then India and Africa. And at the time it was the world’s unrivaled naval power that threw its weight around Western Europe.

Spain conquered her environment and spread out when it was an imperial power. At a point, Spain ruled Italy and was stretching. This was around the Age of Discovery.

During Renaissance & Reformation, France was tearing German states apart and was consolidating itself as an empire in the long haul.

Ottoman conquered its environment and spread its tentancle into Eastern & Western Europe ans North Africa.

Oyo Empire conquered Western Yorubalands and took immediate towns of Popo, Sabe, Alaketu and Dahomey and then moved on to Togo next.

An empire is not surrounded by independent states while having dependencies far off in pocket places. Na kingdom be that.

OlaoChi:
You overdramatize the primogeniture tradition in Benin. It is well known that brothers of a previous Oba have ascended the throne, it has not always been Father-eldest son

As to the point about Ife approval, that was an observation reported by a Portuguese explorer in the 15th century. It is most likely just a ceremonial ritual not that Ife had any authority over the ascension to the throne. Something like this is done in Lagos

steveosaz:
Reading this comedy of errors made one crack up real hard. Probabilities upon probabilities is what you call your source of history?

'(Some say only his head)' can you imagine that? Some say it's the entire corpse others say only the head and this chap^^ went further to add his own fallacy when he said hairs and fingernails - jeez! This is someone sitting under a tree and simply writing history off his own imagination.

'Whenever a Benin Prince brought the remains of his predecessor(which no knows whether its the compete corpse or the head or fingernails and hairs), he also sought sanction from Ile Ife for his own succession'. This is where it leaves no one on doubt that this writer is a comedian of first grade. It would have made sense to had it been that was said of maybe the Alaafin of Oyo or any other king who usually go through a certain selection, but certainly not the Obaship of Benin. The Tradition in Benin has always been a hereditary monarchy such that only the heir apparent or crown prince who must also the the first male son of the king has the exclusive right of inheritance of the throne. Its a right bestowed exclusively by birth and not due to any non existing approval from Ife. The question then should be; in a situation where Ife rejects the crown prince, who then do they appoint? This has never been alluded to by anyone conversant with the working of the traditional stool in Benin and this writer was at best hallucinating.

Yet still, the mystery of all these back and forth arguments isn't in post Oduduwa Ife-Benin era but in the pre Oduduwa era of both cities, and that's where the Edo oral tradition clearly has an upper hand in logic and sensibility.

But as for this writer, his work is just garbage. A literary work based on too many conjectures is not good for reference - no authority.

steveosaz:
Anyone who is of Edo stock and allies totally to the crown would want to be circumspect when ploughing through Eghrevba's work. His mother was of Akure origins and that clearly explains his perceived biases. This again was alluded to by Oba Erediauwa in his book. Though, I know most Yoruba historical revisionists would not enjoy much of what Oba Erediauwa had written and would rather choose to pitch their tent with Egharevba who is by a half their kinsman, those of us who see logic and reason in what Oba Erediauwa had written have also dismissed Egharevba's work as oozing with plenteous subjectivity.

steveosaz:
The case you referred to involved Oba Uwaifiokun, Oba Ewuare the great and others. Murders were involves and didn't follow any traditional protocols. That was an aberration. However, what role did the so called Ile Ife approval play in between all that since the conjurers of that narrative attach spiritual importance to it?

This again invalidates that claim.

davidnazee:
You sound like the white men who distorts truth for their self gain.
It’s common knowledge Benin was the first kingdom to grow into an empire. Benin saw the birth and death of Oyo empire.

Benin Empire ruled over Yoruba lands east of Ife while Oyo took western Yoruba lands. Only Ife was left independent because of its spiritual and religious status.

FYI I will say it again; Ekiti, ondo, owo and Lagos were all vassal states under Benin.

No amount of ur lies can ever change that.

Moorish:
Very convincing argument here

Do you however agree that Benin was most mighty in Nigeria at the time the white man came?

The Portuguese seemed to have a lot of respect for Benin

It’s like we the yorubas didn’t reach our potential thanks to the fulanis and in fighting like kiriji ?

I will say though that it’s probable Oyo was stronger militarily than Benin, we controlled larger swathes of landmass, the whole present day replubic of Benin was paying tribute to Alaafin at some point

Oyo also tried to conquer Benin three times and failed

Which led to the treaty of ogbohu?

All Nigerians are pure rolyalty though, it’s so sad people are ignorant of this glorious heritage

OlaoChi:
Is Usama originally part of Uselu?

Y0ruba:
This is whole of basis of the noise Bini revisionists make. They were at their apogee at the time the Portuguese came & they provided markers in their history. Meanwhile they accept the smoke Portuguese blew under their skirt but will get rabid when we cite pointers to what the Pirtuguese recorded about Ife from Bini king. D’aviero Pacheco’s travel journal comes to mind.

Ibadan was cut short. It was a growing empire and a budding ‘crazy man’ of W.Africa who wanted to fully conquer its environment - Ife, Egba, Ijebu, Ijesa &!Ekiti before spreading its tentacles farther. And like you rightly said Kiriji did us in, it cut Yoruba down. An advantage the British hugged. Bolanle Awe’s doctoral thesis on Ibadan comes to mind.

Of course Oyo was way stronger. Bini benefitted from kin ties between their Oba & Yoruba kings. Also the treaty you mentioned is new to me. Care to elaborate sir? Also, in Samuel Johnson’s seminal work, it was stated that Ogedengbe marched against Bini but was appeased immensely by their Oba who begged him with beads, slaves & other goods.

Y0ruba:
And this same wrote in his acknowledgement that both his parents were Edo. Yet you ascribe Ondo origins to him.

Wow, life.

Oba’s work falls flat in the face of how Ife operates. Your Oba wrote his work on the premise of Yoruba Muslim Mecca tales & Yoruba traditionalist chain story. Ife has its proper history & the relationships of compounds, groups, chiefs & Ooni reflects this facts. This s why NO scholar, be it Yoruba or European takes your Oba’s work serious. It was thrown in the thrash, no one has interest in it.

Stop ascribing Yoruba origins to Egharevba, see below:

odigbosky:
Have you ever written or quote anything that doesn't give your kinsmen over us. The fact is, you are enlocked in a supremacy tussle in your head. We don't want that with you. There are so many publications about how the eastern part of yoruba land was under the domain of Benin kings but you just don't accept it. The whole sense of your argument is based on We are superior. We did this, we did that. we were the first to do this. You haven't told me how the Nupes sacked oyo ruling house and how they ran to Borgu. You haven't really talked about how Oyo tried to take Benin from 1578 to 1608 but failed. You haven't talked about how the Alaafin requested for the help of small Benin. You haven't talked about how king Gezo off Dahomey defeated Oyo, you have talked about how the town got raised to the ground by Fulani. You just want a supremacy argument but i ain't ready for that bro...If Oyo was Lord of the northern fringes of the Rainforest. Benin was Lord of the Rainforest and you can't take that away from history. It is a bitter truth that you have to deal with, that because of sentiments you feel the information being put out there by state governments of some Yoruba states regarding Benin is false because it doesn't suit you. Don't let hatred control your mind....

odigbosky:
Actually Egharevba admitted to some errors in his works at the later parts of his life. I think you should try get your hands on Books by Ekaghuosa Aisien.

odigbosky:
Below is the map of the British Empire. If Britain was to first conquer her surrounding neighbors first before jumping to india and other parts of the world before she could be called an Empire according to your criteria, then meaning she should have conquered France, Germany and most of western Europe but look at that map below and tell me what you think. I wonder why Spain didn't conquer Portugal also, then france before jumping to the southern coast of italy and then flying to south america before she was called an empire.

Y0ruba:
No work is complete, research a continuum. Loopholes are what keep researchers in job & universities functional. What I will ask is if these errors are about his ancestry?

Y0ruba:
Hatred? Far from it. If you were a Medical Doctor, would you fancy a herb seller distorting your profession? I was only pissed when one of your kin rubbished the work of Professors of History who gave their respective lives to this profession - this kin folk of yours may not even be able to conduct the basic research or structure a paper yet he shitted on folks who blazes a trail. Interestingly, he cited nothing in place of what he bad talkee.

Bini’s narrative is not false. It has no basis & that is the point. In as much as every Bini person want to be patriotic, not one has cited a book or a peer reviewed article to back anything.

I want to learn but no one is giving references. We want folks to provide texts in athropology, history & archeology.

Do you know the only source of every Bini NL commnter is the Oba’s book? Do you inow the low rating the Oba’s book has in international academic circle? Are you aware it will be peeled off if cited in a research paper except to pose a question or for literature review purposes?

If you want the non-glossed hiatory of Yoruba - Ife, Oyo, Ibadan, Ijebu, Egba, Awori, Akure, Ondo, Ekiti & so on, I will be very ready to give you all the info at my disposal. I have never been the type to be selective history - this distort the chronology of events and affects the historian to forget details.

I recently wrote a paper, the Prof at my faculty who was not Ife hoped to see if I was going to be pro-Ife in the work but I tried to balance things citing several sources. When it is fully edited & published, I’ll send you a link. I’ll follow you now.

I like to deal with History in totality. If your kin folks can provide citations. It will be so amazing that Yoruba-Bini history can then be reconstructed.

odigbosky:
And not everything these Europeans recorded about us are true. These guys mainly observed and how many of our languages could they speak. If were to start citing most of the works done by Europeans then we had maps they drew with no oyo in it or giving very little knowledge about Oyo at all. Also, most of the history written down by the Sage historian Johnson were gotten as tales. How many of these events did he witness. We have seen people discredit some of his works. Even works written at the particular time or close to the era of occurrence are even still disputed not to talk about oral testimonies passed down from generation to generation. We all have our own side of the story...we all have something to say...

odigbosky:
Not about his ancestry but regarding his early works on Benin and lot of the Benin-ife story. It is wrong for many people to say the Ekhaladerhan story was recently invented. When i was a kid, i was told the story of Igodomigodo and its first Ogiso called Ogiso Igodo by an Old man in a village called Evboesi in mordern day Ohrionmwon Local govt area. This village only got electricity 4 years ago. They got cellular network only about 10 years ago and it was Glo. it was of an on. What am trying to paint is that many of our Oral traditions or history have not even been told and they die with our old people who don't have a way of passing it down either via writing except in tales. When i was told the whole story of Igodo and how Ekhaladerhan ran away from Igodomigodo i never knew its importance not until i started reading books. Most of the history books were written by your kinsmen and the story they told us about ourselves was different from what we were told by our old people. The only Edo work out there was that Of Egharevba edited and printed in Ibadan and it had errors. Today we have many historical works by Edos out there. We are telling our stories now to the world and yes not all of it might be correct but there is always room for correction when seen.

odigbosky:
Not about his ancestry but regarding his early works on Benin and lot of the Benin-ife story. It is wrong for many people to say the Ekhaladerhan story was recently invented. When i was a kid, i was told the story of Igodomigodo and its first Ogiso called Ogiso Igodo by an Old man in a village called Evboesi in mordern day Ohrionmwon Local govt area. This village only got electricity 4 years ago. They got cellular network only about 10 years ago and it was Glo. it was of an on. What am trying to paint is that many of our Oral traditions or history have not even been told and they die with our old people who don't have a way of passing it down either via writing except in tales. When i was told the whole story of Igodo and how Ekhaladerhan ran away from Igodomigodo i never knew its importance not until i started reading books. Most of the history books were written by your kinsmen and the story they told us about ourselves was different from what we were told by our old people. The only Edo work out there was that Of Egharevba edited and printed in Ibadan and it had errors. Today we have many historical works by Edos out there. We are telling our stories now to the world and yes not all of it might be correct but there is always room for correction when seen.

odigbosky:
Have you ever written or quote anything that doesn't give your kinsmen over us. The fact is, you are enlocked in a supremacy tussle in your head. We don't want that with you. There are so many publications about how the eastern part of yoruba land was under the domain of Benin kings but you just don't accept it. The whole sense of your argument is based on We are superior. We did this, we did that. we were the first to do this. You haven't told me how the Nupes sacked oyo ruling house and how they ran to Borgu. You haven't really talked about how Oyo tried to take Benin from 1578 to 1608 but failed. You haven't talked about how the Alaafin requested for the help of small Benin. You haven't talked about how king Gezo off Dahomey defeated Oyo, you have talked about how the town got raised to the ground by Fulani. You just want a supremacy argument but i ain't ready for that bro...If Oyo was Lord of the northern fringes of the Rainforest. Benin was Lord of the Rainforest and you can't take that away from history. It is a bitter truth that you have to deal with, that because of sentiments you feel the information being put out there by state governments of some Yoruba states regarding Benin is false because it doesn't suit you. Don't let hatred control your mind....

Y0ruba:
You are stretching your luck.

Bini occupied pocket places not a stretch of land.

Empires are known to stretch evenly with the seat of power playing the nucleus. Benin could not conquer Owo & skipped to Ekitilands but failed. You should read books & not websites. Benin’s efforts in Ekiti area failed as a result of the far distance between Ekiti & Bini. When armies go to Ekiti to raid, they hardly ever receive support to entrench their rule and mostly always had to kust settle in with the more populous locals who reassert their independence. Until a new Bini king emerges and another army is raised again, the circle went over and over again.

Bini left so many areas between her & Lagos but came to Lagos Island to settle on a minute patch of land which was given to it out of recognized Bini & Yoruba connections NOT conquest. Did you even know Bini tried to take Epe & was badly defeated?

As for Akure, they had interactions including trade with Bini. Bini invaded once and left. The same way Ilesa had interactions with Bini. And Akure throne was revitalized by Ilesa throne. If you did not know, original Yoruba kings regarded themselves as brothers but Alaafin, Owa Ilesa & Olu Bini had a special relationship amongst them. They saw each other as blood brothers and they were tight with one another historically. Hence, Bini did not occupy Akure which is an offshoot of Ilesa throne.

Empires are not occupied in pockets. You do not skip A to D then occupy E, skip F to J then conquer K. This is what Bini ‘Empire’ was like. Do you know in the academia, History & Archeology to be exact, Bini is referred to as a Kingdom is literatures and not an Empire? Did you know it was because Bini did not fit into the bill of an empire?

On Wikipedia, as edited by Bini people, which has now been taken down. It was written that Bini ‘empire’ occupied Onitsha, Obalende & Lagos Island & Parts of present day Ondo state. Do you know how many towns are between Bini & Obalende/Lagos Island which Bini was unable to touch? Do you know how many towns are between Bini & Onitsha? Which were not under Bini? Do you know how many towns are between Bini & ‘present day Ondo state’ which were independent? Was this how empires in world history operated?

odigbosky:
Not about his ancestry but regarding his early works on Benin and lot of the Benin-ife story. It is wrong for many people to say the Ekhaladerhan story was recently invented. When i was a kid, i was told the story of Igodomigodo and its first Ogiso called Ogiso Igodo by an Old man in a village called Evboesi in mordern day Ohrionmwon Local govt area. This village only got electricity 4 years ago. They got cellular network only about 10 years ago and it was Glo. it was of an on. What am trying to paint is that many of our Oral traditions or history have not even been told and they die with our old people who don't have a way of passing it down either via writing except in tales. When i was told the whole story of Igodo and how Ekhaladerhan ran away from Igodomigodo i never knew its importance not until i started reading books. Most of the history books were written by your kinsmen and the story they told us about ourselves was different from what we were told by our old people. The only Edo work out there was that Of Egharevba edited and printed in Ibadan and it had errors. Today we have many historical works by Edos out there. We are telling our stories now to the world and yes not all of it might be correct but there is always room for correction when seen.

davidnazee:
You are just a pained liar. No matter how much u distort the truth it can never be changed.
Benin conquered and ruled Yoruba.. that is a fact.

How many towns were existing in the 15th century? All villages/settlements/towns in East of Ife were under Benin.

The Yorubas has always been a conquered tribe.. Nupe conquered and ruled you for 100yrs till mighty Benin kingdom came to your aid and drove out the Nupes and reinstalled the Oyo monarchy. If not for Benin you will be speaking Nupish today.
Fulanis defeated and still rule Yoruba till today.

Your Oba Akanbi of Owo has changed to a Muslim Emir Mohamadu Akanbi.

Moorish:
Very convincing argument here

Do you however agree that Benin was most mighty in Nigeria at the time the white man came?

The Portuguese seemed to have a lot of respect for Benin

It’s like we the yorubas didn’t reach our potential thanks to the fulanis and in fighting like kiriji ?

I will say though that it’s probable Oyo was stronger militarily than Benin, we controlled larger swathes of landmass, the whole present day replubic of Benin was paying tribute to Alaafin at some point

Oyo also tried to conquer Benin three times and failed

Which led to the treaty of ogbohu?

All Nigerians are pure rolyalty though, it’s so sad people are ignorant of this glorious heritage

Y0ruba:
And this same wrote in his acknowledgement that both his parents were Edo. Yet you ascribe Ondo origins to him.

Wow, life.

Oba’s work falls flat in the face of how Ife operates. Your Oba wrote his work on the premise of Yoruba Muslim Mecca tales & Yoruba traditionalist chain story. Ife has its proper history & the relationships of compounds, groups, chiefs & Ooni reflects this facts. This s why NO scholar, be it Yoruba or European takes your Oba’s work serious. It was thrown in the thrash, no one has interest in it.

Stop ascribing Yoruba origins to Egharevba, see below:

steveosaz:
Mr man, your impressions are only the skewed accounts of those the Bini throne and some of its sympathizers consider as compromised.

Nobody tell you how to relate your Yoruba story, but you now quoting the accounts of so called scholars who drew conclusions from incomplete or subjective information which stinks of predetermined biases about Bini history is absolutely nonsensical.

You have only succeeded in doing two things, advancing your supremacist intentions and trying to use dubious scholars to twist Edo history.

The Oba's book remains a reference point any day on the subject of Bini history and no Yoruba can come from the moon like your oduduwa to tell us how things were done especially when such opinion doesn't have any concurrence from the palace.

Keep reading your Yoruba scholars, while we go with Edo accounts. It's that simple.

Y0ruba:
Alright, thank you for the back & forth.

I would very much like to be left alone and not be quoted by you anymore seeing that your knowledge of Bini history itself is very poor - you do not know primorgeniture succession to Bini throne began with one of their Obas (Ogun?) who had a problem with his brother. And from inception, Bini throne succession used to be open to all male of royal ancestry.

You have poor knowledge of your own history but want to shit on those whose professorship pedegree you may never equal. I did not know you were in the position to declare the work of world renowned Historians from Nigeria & Europe who came together to do a work edited by Obaro Ikime were idiots according to you.

Finally, you only want to argue & not debate. You are bringing anything new, you only want to chorus mouth to mouth fables & portray supremacist ideals that have no place in scholarly world. You are not adding anything to me & I would not like my small progress to recede by engaging you in pedestrian banter.

All the best sir, you’ll certainly find folks who would find you worthy.