₦airaland Forum

shadeyinka:
I think you are being ruled by fear of calling that "unknown and mysterious" God. That unknown lives in a realm beyond time.

For me that "unknown and mysterious" is INTELLIGENT
And if intelligent, a BEING and must predate time T=0

For you, the "unknown and mysterious" is just laws of physics and chemistry which cannot be INTELLIGENT and therefore cannot be a BEING.


But don't forget that ALL the laws of Physics and Chemistry breakdown at Time T=0.

If the basis of all our sciences break down at Time T=0, is it logical to use the same laws of Physics and Chemistry to determine what was before time T=0?

TV01:
No sir, it cannot. Not the Christianity of the Holy Bible. The scriptural narrative and TOE present diametrically opposed propositions.

budaatum:
But are you not jumping from "it exists", to "it was designed"?

budaatum:
Theistic evolution, theistic evolutionism, evolutionary creationism or God-guided evolution are views that regard religious teachings about God as compatible with modern scientific understanding about biological evolution. Theistic evolution is not in itself a scientific theory, but a range of views about how the science of general evolution relates to religious beliefs in contrast to special creation views.

Supporters of theistic evolution generally harmonize evolutionary thought with belief in God, rejecting the conflict thesis regarding the relationship between religion and science – they hold that religious teachings about creation and scientific theories of evolution need not contradict each other.

shadeyinka:
Designed and built:
Design because we see interlinked functionalities
Built because we interact with the designs in 3D

Did I say "it exists?'

shadeyinka:
Very good question.
1. God exists beyond time as the first "cause" that generated "events" : this looks like a statement and yes it is! For there must exist a first "cause" that led to every other physical things.

2. Because we exist with consciousness, then there is no reason why God cannot exist.

3. If God was to be the "first cause", he must not be subject to the physical laws for all known physical laws existed after time T=0.
As Christians, we know God as a Spirit.

How could God have created Himself: that would have been an impossibility except God had always existed.

TV01:
Yes, I'm aware such views exist. However, I don't agree they can be inferred from the scriptural narrative and contradict it in several ways - which I noted.

Dhumancanvas:
Im being ruled by fear. I wonder how you came to that conclusion. God is a name for which you can attach whatever meaning you wish. Although when i say God in this context i refer to the God of the bible. Now you wanna say this mysterious God lives beyond, how do you know? I don't even disagree actually but how can you possible say anything about an entity that predates time? Don't you think you're being a little arrogant and getting ahead of yourself to claim such knowledge?

'[B]Unknown[/b] and mysterious' yet you know it to be intelligent.

I made no attempt whatsoever to explain before time. I specifically said it cant be known Soooooo I don't know where you're going once again with chemistry and physics. I completely agree that our sciences breakdown at t=0 thats why I say this is something that cannot be known cuz our tools for understanding and our very imagination fail at this point. So this being the case now how can you or anyone claim any knowledge about something so mysterious.

Its not even that i know there is no God. In this case i refer to God as the entity behind the universe's existence. I don't think there is reason to believe there is tho. My point however is if there is a God and as you pointed out it predates time. How the hell can you or any pastor, preacher, imam, philosopher say anything about this God. You can't possibly know this God yet every tom dick and harry christian claims comprehensive knowledge on this impossible to know mystery.
Humanity itself is very young on the universal timeline, its amazing what we have achieved really but we have our limits which we haven't even reach yet and knowledge of an entity that predates time and the universe is certainly beyond this limit. So anyone that claims such knowledge ultimately doesn't know what they are talking about and what they say amounts to nonsensical claims.

If this God does exist. As it remains a mystery. Why people build monuments, write books, gather and pray to this God is beyond me. Like what y'all know you are doing. Some individuals claim this God speaks to them, really!. Its not even pragmatic to consider this God in day to day life. Its not useful. It doesn't help to explain anything. It doesn't aid in our understanding of the world or ourselves. Nothing. So all the theist religious efforts made is completely pointless.
Just imagine a world where religious efforts and resources were put to better use. Imagine how far ahead we would be. Instead we waste time entertaining nonesense.
Look at our country Nigeria where we carry religion on our heads, where are we now. Look at less religious countries in europe. See how far ahead they are.
I don't know how you see it. But all this theistic religious hullabaloo is just a silly waste of time,effort and resources.

budaatum:
Surely, a thing "designed and built" exists or must have existed at some point in time

TV01:
As if the clearly scripted nature of the code that replicates life is not undeniable evidence of a creator behind said code? How can one not grasp this, or, see this and claim there is no evidence for creation? I can only see this as a kind of blind absolutism. I simply cannot fathom what else drives statements of this nature .

No sir, it is not. If two people both write an excel macro, any number of the coding elements or outcomes may be similar. That is not evidence for a common designer, just evidence that the scripting methodology is the same/similar. Further, it speaks more credibly to a sole designer, who is more likely to repeat script where desired outcomes are the same/similar.

Similarity in the scripts leading to similar parts, does not mean the parts are exact replicas. The structure and make up of limbs in all creatures that have them is different. It is not, as it is made to sound, like different cars using the exact same parts. The whole notion of "sharing DNA" in that sense is therefore flawed. That 2 creatures have DNA to produce a leg, does not mean that the "DNA is shared", although parts of it may appear common. In a paternity test it is true sharing, as that is a testing inherited DNA.

This is mistaken; we absolutely know what is going on. The difference is in belief as to how it originated. A script never arises without a script writer, neither a code without someone to encode it. TOE is not, in the first instance, a model whose purpose is to explain what is going on, it's a model created solely to deny and, attempt to disprove the obvious truth of creation.

Another common trope. As if "religionists" are not scientists or, do not apply scientific methodology. In terms of origins and the wonderful and complex variety of lifeforms, the scientific method s, in some ways quite limited. What happens is an "interpretation if what happened", based on the available evidence. But with advances in understanding DNA, it's scripting and complexity, the case for a creator is clear.

Creationism is not in competition with evolution. Evolution was designed to deny The Creator. The agreement of the Pope is not evidence and neither here nor there. But no surprise, Catholicism was used to formulate the theory of evolution along with heliocentrism to that very end.

No problem. It's nice of you to take time to share. Hopefully I've in turn articulated well enough to you.

Have a pleasant weekend.


Cheers

TV

shadeyinka:
I understand you very well.

I for now wouldn't push you to acknowledge the existence of my God but it is sufficient for me to show that such exists.

I am glad we agree that the physical laws break down at time T=0. If indeed it breaks down,
1. The origin of the universe must have a great cause.
2. The cause must be before time t=0
3. The infinite regression of the cause must lead to a final first cause:

The question is:
What is this "first cause"?
Is it a Being or plain Energy?

If it is a Being, then things make sense as He could be called the creator.
But
If it is Just plain Energy, then the infinite regressions proceed indefinitely and hence illogical.

If God is beyond time, it makes sense that no one can know and describe Him. Except if that God revealed a little of Himself to some men who pass the knowledge down. And of course along the line, distortions are introduced, imitations are introduced and hence over time the truth is distorted.

Of course God sometimes speak to some people. But one can't control when, how and what the conversation would be.

The believe in the existence of a creator is first a choice, evidence follows
The disbelieve in the existence of a creator is also first a choice, then evidence follows .


BUT,
If an intelligent creator exists, there MUST be a reason for the creation of everything: don't you think so?

budaatum:
"It's a mystery but I can explain it to you.
Just believe me!"

JujuSugar:
Do you believe God created time?

JujuSugar:
Are you trying to say that the existence of qualia is proof of god?......
Because there's no evidence that qualia can be abstracted from thought processes in general....
Consciousness may just be how the brain works.

JujuSugar:
Can there be cause-and-effect outside of time?

JujuSugar:
Time is part of the very fabric of the universe......
If the universe started to exist then so did time.
How can anything eternal predate the beginning of time? It's like saying Santa lives north of the north pole.

Dhumancanvas:
Im glad we are starting to see eye to eye. And i like the point you've made.
However if You are to follow the idea of first cause then you should follow it completely to its ultimate conclusion you can't stop and make an exception for God. What caused God. If everything has a cause then what caused God and what caused the causer of God and so on then you're back to infinite regression. That's the problem with that argument. You introduce God as an entity that breaks all the rukes your argument stands upon. I still reside to saying we don't know and that is not a problem. The knowledge or lack there of doesn't have any effect on life really.

Dhumancanvas:
As for meaning. Its what you make of it. If you entertain the idea that there is no God and no ultimate reason for existence that means that you are here is a wonderful gift, you get to witness and partake in existence. You write your own script. Define what is meaningful to you and the reason why you are and live according to that. I don't think you can go wrong approaching life that way.
Unless you've been conditioned all wrong and you derive meaning from killing people or something lol but thats a conversation for another day

shadeyinka:
Time isn't a creation!
Time resulted because of the physical world. It's simply the interval/duration of wait between two physical events.

Like the car manufacturer didn't create speed: speed is a result of the creation of a vehicle that moves


Nothing is a "Proof of God"!

I believe you define quails as :
Individual instances of subjective, conscious experience.

We all have subjective experiences such as intuition, trance, dejavus, sometimes vision and even auditory.

To me, it's an evidence that perception may not just exist using our 5 senses. Maybe we have other senses other than this.

Like:
How does a chicken know it should brood on her eggs?
How do they figure out how to mate?
How do some animals use the earth's magnetic field to navigate?



Yes!

The only problem is that we (humans) can only measure cause and effect relative to our universe. We don't have any yardstick to describe what happened before the big bang.



This is an interesting question.
BUT
Just slow down a little and you'll understand.

Time is a measure of interval between two or more physical events. The physical universe happened at the big bang time T=0 and it started from a pin point and the universe is still expanding today.

Now, time isn't absolute: it's a measure of interval between physical events where the starting point is always T=0 and ending at any further time later. Like a track race is always measured from time T=0

In other words, if you can set a reference time before the big bang, you can measure times before the universe.

God predates our time T=0 and that is why He could be the cause of the Universe

malvisguy212:
I love this. bless you bro.

Dhumancanvas:
Man I'd love to hear it. Im surrounded by believers and they all claim there is something there and im open to whatever it is although my scepticism. If you can convince me beyond a reasonable doubt then please go ahead

Dhumancanvas:
'Unknown and mysterious' yet you know it to be intelligent.

shadeyinka:
Time isn't a creation!
Time resulted because of the physical world. It's simply the interval/duration of wait between two physical events.

Nothing is a "Proof of God"!

I believe you define quails as :
Individual instances of subjective, conscious experience.

We all have subjective experiences such as intuition, trance, dejavus, sometimes vision and even auditory.

To me, it's an evidence that perception may not just exist using our 5 senses. Maybe we have other senses other than this.

Like:
How does a chicken know it should brood on her eggs?
How do they figure out how to mate?
How do some animals use the earth's magnetic field to navigate?

Yes!

The only problem is that we (humans) can only measure cause and effect relative to our universe. We don't have any yardstick to describe what happened before the big bang.

This is an interesting question.
BUT
Just slow down a little and you'll understand.

Time is a measure of interval between two or more physical events. The physical universe happened at the big bang time T=0 and it started from a pin point and the universe is still expanding today.

Now, time isn't absolute: it's a measure of interval between physical events where the starting point is always T=0 and ending at any further time later. Like a track race is always measured from time T=0

In other words, if you can set a reference time before the big bang, you can measure times before the universe.

God predates our time T=0 and that is why He could be the cause of the Universe

shadeyinka:
The only thing I agree with here is that you write your own script but it isn't a gift nor meaningful knowing that you are not better than animals who live to eat and procreate.

Life is indeed meaningless if I live to work, make money and live well. Doing good by itself is also meaningless in the sense that how many of us acknowledge the inventors of the microwave oven, TV, electricity anytime we use the gadgets. It is useless to the inventors. It is possible that even the inventors grandchildren will live in poverty.
If we can't live forever, then life is at best meaningless!

Do you know the only things that are yours in this world:
1. The time of Fun and Happiness you had
2. The food you ate
Every other thing is meaningless

If we are to look at life strictly from an atheistic point of view,
1. Every man should maximise his pleasure at the expense of other because of the code of "survival of the fittest"

I think you know that the "uncaused first-cause" of everything must exist. The only problem is can He be such as the theologians (Christians, Moslems, Hindus etc) describe Him?

shadeyinka:
Now,
1. Is God a thing?
Certainly NOT so, He could be an exception to the infinite regression of "what cause the cause of the last cause"
2. The creation of the universe breaks all the physical rules and laws that make the present universe.
3. We can't trace beyond time T=0, hence our regression cannot go beyond that into the past.

In other words, the existence of God is beyond our mortal reasoning

budaatum:
So, an idea, or concept (the earth is not flat) can be an absolute truth even though humans think it's flat.

Absolute truth is therefore not subject to opinions?

shadeyinka:
It's a prove of design

In design we Reuse, adapt and modify existing templates to form new ones. In creative activities we don't reinvent every time do we?

budaatum:
Lol! Don't miss the quotation marks. Perhaps I should have said "I can't explain it, just believe me" , then you might have noticed the irony in my statement (which I notice you did with your:


Christ advised that one should worry not about the Father in heaven, for, ‘[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25%3A40-45&version=NIV;KJV]Truly I tell you[/url], whenever I buda do not do for one of the least of these I am proclaiming that there is no God.’


Point is, I don't have to prove anything to you, and if I have a brain and mind should be proving it to myself "beyond a reasonable doubt".

Dhumancanvas:
God is an unknown as we've discussed before that you ascribe all these attributes to for which you still have no evidence or can't say how you know. The fact still remains that if you are going to make a logical argument you gotta follow it through. You can't set up your premise and introduce an anomaly that disobeys the premise you yourself set up just to make your point stick. If you're gonna start making exceptions for God you may well start making exceptions for other things and everything falls apart.

If God escapes our mortal reasoning then still how can any mortal say anythig reasonable about God.

shadeyinka:
God is already an exception. The laws that guide the computer cannot be used to bind the programmer
I just told you that God reveals Himself to a few people and these one communicate His knowledge down generation. Unfortunately, any experience of God is subjective and people like you will contend against it.

You have to be in the stream to experience the flow..no other way! If I told you my experience, would you believe? No!

I didn't break the logical flow of my argument. Natural events and laws did.

The bottom line still is:
1. Shut out Gods existence from your life
2. Make Gods existence part of your life
We all have to make a choice!

Dhumancanvas:
You're catching an ego trip lol. Why are you comparing yourself to animals and why feel the need to be superior. Why the need for acknowledgement. All of these are egoic desires. Doing good for its sake should be good enough not for recognition.
Life has no intrinsic meaning but it's not meaningless. You derive meaning from your vocation, you derive meaning from the precious moments you spend with those that matter to you, you derive meaning from simple things in life, you derive meaning from creating(artisticly), from bringing new life into this world and being part of the driving force maintain out spieces survival(bioloigcal purpose). Life is to be lived, in the present, its short and it comes to an end which makes it precious so enjoy it while it lasts.
It is certainly not my view that life is just to maximise pleasure. Thats the hedonistic view, im not condemning it but its wrong to say this is the view of athiests. I wanna live, learn, make an impact positively on the people around me, achieve my highest potential.
God is not needed for this. A lack of belief in a God doesn't stop you from living and experiencing a meaningful life. Frankly if you think it does then that is sad. Your meaning is anchored to this idea of God which is flakey. Instead of being achored to something deeper within yourself, your highest ideals. According to maslows hierachy of needs we all strive towards self actualization. Basically becoming our best selves in whatever circumstance we find ourselves, wherever we find ourselves.
That's how I see it.

Dhumancanvas:
well i thank you for your directness and honesty. Unfortunately 'just believe it' doesn't work for me. Frankly I don't think it works for anyone. Belief is a function of conviction. If you're convinced you're not going to be by someone saying 'just believe it'. On that note i believe that alot of people who claim to believe dont even really believe they only feel that they ought to and answer yes when asked but really belief doesn't work like that and those people are just fooling themselves .

That's alot of believe lol

shadeyinka:
Unfortunately, life is of a truth meaningless!

We are all in a race we don't even understand.

Why is it that some people with fame, power and riches commit suicide?
Why is it that some people unknown, uninfluencial and poor live happy lives?
Is fulfilment even real?

In a few more years from now, Bill Gates, Dangote will die and then the question is why amass that kind of money when nothing in life is guaranteed?

Aristotle, Alexander the great are known in history: is it to their advantage?

Life by itself is meaningless!

shadeyinka:
Unfortunately, life is of a truth meaningless!

We are all in a race we don't even understand.

Life by itself is meaningless!

johnydon22:
Evolution doesn't preclude deisgn dude neither does design preclude evolution!!

Dhumancanvas:
thats a sad view on life my friend. One of the reasons i dislike religious belief is because it promotes this kind of view.