₦airaland Forum

MissRaine69:
That’s not a rational explanation it’s what I call an evasive attempt to explain what you don’t have answer for.

Sure it is rational. You see for your question there are only 3 possibilities as answer.

1. He was created
2. He created himself
3. He is eternal.

1. Is rationally wrong because of what I said earlier
2. Is also wrong rationally because of the boundary
3. This is the only correct answer rationally.

Let's just say it is RED LINE area. I refrained from judging whether surrogacy is halal or Haram. My only concern is about lineage because, I believe that in surrogacy, there is mix of DNA. This places question mark on this modern innovation.

Insemination of sperm through IVF is not essentially the problem but the result. I'm saying this to clarify a brother's post insinuating that if a practice was not done by sahaba (companions if the prophet -SAW) and those who followed them, then this action of surrogation is not permissible.

I must say this is not religious ritual matter but ijtihad or alternative solution to women having difficulties getting pregnant. Therefore we should not be quick to assume that if sahaba didn't do this automatically means we can't. Surrogation did not exist those days.


Hadith which speaks on slave girl giving birth to her mistress does not say that it is Haram or halal but says it is only Sign of End Time.


Again, surrogation in itself is modern development but the process and the result is where attention to details is mostly needed. Therefore, I believe DNA is questionable unless we can get clear explanation why DNA is not mixed or conterminated with other DNA. This is what my first post addressed. I am not gonna get into sahaba did it did not do it.

tintingz:
Read the article, the cell from the surrogate mother is small to form DNA in the baby, there's no effect.

Sperm and eggs of the intended parents are collected, this way it becomes the DNA.

Islaam is a pure religion and thus emphasizes greatly on the preservation and purity of one’s lineage. This is maintained by having no involvement from a third person. A child’s parents are his father and mother.


I disagree that it is too small to form a DNA. with all the body chemicals and fluid exchanges between mother and child for 9months, someone will now say it is too small to form a DNA. In 9months if constant supply? It may be too small for it to have a significant impact on the formation or the development of the child but definitely not the formation of DNA and that doesn’t mean the lineage has not been contaminated. It may be too small to have any significant effect but it is not too small for it to be detected by DNA test. Remember DNA test results are expressed in percentage. The result will prove that you have 87% chance of being the father. Did you ever wonder why not 100%. What happen to the remaining 13%? The tiny DNA strings from the surrogate mother and many other things are what makes up the remaining 13%.

There was a report that AS, SS and other genotypes where as a result of centuries of DNA altering due to some factors beyond human control. Meaning that in the beginning of time there was nothing like AS and SS.


Before I drift too far, the main bone of contention that most people miss here is the preservation and purity of one’s lineage and if you’re to talk about purification of one’s lineage then you need to talk about DNA and if you’re talking about purification in Islam there’s nothing like 99%. It has to be 100% except things that are beyond your control(like diseases).


Bottom line it’s no matter how small the DNA strand is as long as it is present then the talk of preservation and purity is out of the window.

YakubuA:
All your quotations are correct. But how do we interpret these quotations? We look at how the Sahaba (RA) lived their lives. It is known to every Muslim by necessity that the Sahaba (RA) never engaged in any action until they sought about its permissiblity from the Prophet (saw). And nobody understand Islam more than the Prophet (saw) whom Allah (swt) told us that his Sahaba (RA) are the best generation of mankind.
So if your interpretation and understanding differ than the Sahaba(RA), Tabi'i or Tabi'i Tabi'i then your interpretation and understanding is wrong.

Unfortunately no sahabah lived to witness modern day development. So issue of Sahabah, tabi'in, tabi' tabi'in does not arise here.

AlBaqir:
Unfortunately no sahabah lived to witness modern day development. So issue of Sahabah, tabi'in, tabi' tabi'in does not arise here.

The Sahabah (RA) do not need to witness modern day development for them to be our reference point in understanding Islam. The point is that they do not undertake any action until they get clearance from the Prophet that it is permissible. Even after the Prophet passed away they refer all matters to the Qur'an and Sunnah as directed by Allah (swt). And the command is still valid on us today. As you know there are 4 sources of Shari'a confirmed by Allah(swt) Qur'an, Sunnah, IjmaasSahabah and Qiyas.

Empiree:
Surrogation is alien in Islam unfortunately. It is modern Western innovation. Just because it provides temporary "solution" doesn't make it halal.


There is question about lineage here. There is a hadith of the prophet (saw) which says one of the Signs of the Hour is a slave girl would give birth to her mistress.


Surrogate literally means “substitute.” In this case, a woman bears a child for another woman. The concept of surrogacy is a by-product of artificial insemination (AI) and in-vitro fertilization (IVF) techniques.


The Hadith speaks in a pregnant and tactical form. In Western world it is very costly to surrogate. This is why I believe the hadith really makes sense. Although there are views of classical scholars in their interpretation. But we can look at it from contemporary view as well.

Most western women can not afford surrogation which cost up to $150,000. Therefore, Western woman travels to 3rd world country to bring poor lady to United States for instance. Mistress (American woman's husband's sperm) artificially inseminated into this poor slave woman and she carries the pregnancy. She gets the best food, best treatment and all that. After delivering the baby, baby is taken away from her and she's discharged with token or far less than average cost of surrogation in the West. This poor lady is 'happy' to have carried first class baby. Often time, they don't bring the lady to the West. Everything is done in her home country.

Anyways, bottom line is she gives birth to her mistress. Lineage issue is on the line. Speaking on Islamic law on this issue,


"The purpose of law that is most related to the topic of surrogacy is protection of progeny. As Islam encourages reproduction, it advocates treatment of infertility. Further, protection of progeny entails care for pregnant women and the health of the children. It further entails preservation of lineage. Each newborn should know and be related to both his/her mother and father.

Hiring a ‘womb’ for procreation is a very recent phenomenon that contemporary jurists have to handle. Islamic bioethics cannot accept this practice because surrogacy is a clear form of using donor sperm, a foreign element, in the womb of a woman which results in the mixing of lineage. Mufti Sheikh Ahmad Kutty, an Islamic scholar, opines that the introduction of male sperm into the uterus of a woman to whom he is not married transgresses the bounds of Allah."



In view of the term ‘transgressing the bounds of Allah’ he mentions the following verses of the Qur’ān:



and who are mindful of their chastity, [not giving way to their desires] with any but their spouses or what their right hands possess”: for then, behold, they are free of all blame, whereas such as seek to go beyond that [limit] are truly transgressors.


Again, a very basic component of hifz al-nasl is to protect lineage.

I like the way you arrived at that your master-slave analogy. Wuru wuru to the answer. Every argument I have seen against this has not been able to do without the "western" angle. How about the millions of women in low income countries who are infertile? Or is it only western women who use surrogacy?

Lukgaf:
In the Name of Allaah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful.

As-salaamu ‘alaykum wa-rahmatullaahi wa-barakaatuh.

It is important to understand that it is Allaah Ta’aala who grants couples children and it is He who deprives them of children. Consider the following verse:

يَهَبُ لِمَنْ يَشَاءُ إِنَاثًا وَيَهَبُ لِمَنْ يَشَاءُ الذُّكُورَ (49) أَوْ يُزَوِّجُهُمْ ذُكْرَانًا وَإِنَاثًا وَيَجْعَلُ مَنْ يَشَاءُ عَقِيمًا إِنَّهُ عَلِيمٌ قَدِيرٌ

Translation: He grants to whomever He so wills female offspring and He grants to whomever He so wills male offspring. Or He bestows (upon some) both males and females. And He makes barren whomever He so wills. Indeed, He is All-Knowing, All-mighty. (Ash-Shooraa v.49-50)

Islaam is a pure religion and thus emphasizes greatly on the preservation and purity of one’s lineage. This is maintained by having no involvement from a third person. A child’s parents are his father and mother.

Accordingly, surrogacy or the involvement of a third person in reproduction is not permissible[1].

If a couple is unable to bear children, they should firstly turn to Allaah Ta’aala with the following du’aa:

رَبِّ هَبْ لِي مِن لَّدُنْكَ ذُرِّيَّةً طَيِّبَةً إِنَّكَ سَمِيعُ الدُّعَاءِ
(Robbi abli min ladunka dhuriyyatan toyyibatan innaka semiu l dua

This is the du’aa of Sayyiduna Zakariyyaa (‘Alaihis salaam) when he was faced with a similar situation. Allaah Ta’aala accepted his du’aas despite his old age and barren wife.

Alternatively, a couple may consider adoption. That is indeed a virtuous deed.



And Allaah Ta’aala Knows Best.

By: Muajul I. Chowdhury via https://jamiat.org.za/surrogacy-permissible-or-not/

There's a lot of subjective reasoning in this submission. Please do not prescribe dua for an infertile woman and then turn around and go for a blood test/scan when you are sick. If we're going to use this reasoning, remember that it is Allah that gives and takes good health.

Rashduct4luv:
Compound Ignorance! You never seem to amaze me with this your "ITK'' attitude. There are many Islamic rulings between mother and child which would be derived from this confused case! Is she a ''mahram" to the child? Can he/she marry the woman's child? And so many other confusing issues! We know the genes are not mixed but the foetus is sustained by the surrogate mother!

You better shut your atheist brains when in this Islamic section!

You need to stop calling everyone who disagrees with you ITK, atheist or Shiite. And you really need to do a lot of background reading about an issue of scientific fact before posting about it.

OvaSabi1:
You need to stop calling everyone who disagrees with you ITK, atheist or Shiite. And you really need to do a lot of background reading about an issue of scientific fact before posting about it.

But i didn't lie.

If someone calls me an Ahl-Sunnah or Salafy of cos i would be happy. So why can't i call you by what you believe in? They should be happy too.

And Background reading on what? Surrogacy or Artificial insemination? Renting of womb? What else do we need to know about it?

Rashduct4luv:
Renting wombs is one of the innovations of western civilization, which is a purely materialistic civilization which does not give any weight to moral values and principles. The issue is not things that may affect inherited characteristics or confuse lineage; that is not the point of the shar’i ruling. Whether that leads to any effect on inherited characteristics or not, whether that results in confusion of lineage or not, it does not matter, because the shar’i ruling forbidding this innovation is based on something else, which is that the womb is a part of a woman’s private parts and the private parts (i.e., sexual relations) are not permissible except through the shar’i contract whose conditions are fully met. So the womb is exclusively for the husband who is married to that woman according to a valid marriage contract, and no one else has any right to use it for an alien pregnancy. If the woman who rents out her womb is not married to that husband, then she is permitting her private parts and her womb to a man who is a stranger to her; she is not permissible for him and he is not permissible for her. Even if this is not full-scale zinaa (adultery), it is still definitely haraam because it is enabling a man who is a stranger to her (i.e., not married to her) to put his semen in her womb.

Dr. ‘Abd al-‘Azeem al-Mat’ani, al-Azhaar University

In gestational surrogacy, it's the fetus that goes into the carrier and not the sperm. Moreover, your first sentence negates the rest of your submission.

"Innovations of western civilization, which is a purely materialistic civilization which does not give any weight to moral values and principles."
Yen yen yen.
Why are you using a phone and on a website that is from a materialistic civilization?

Rashduct4luv:
But i didn't lie.

If someone calls me an Ahl-Sunnah or Salafy of cos i would be happy. So why can't i call you by what you believe in? They should be happy too.

And Background reading on what? Surrogacy or Artificial insemination? Renting of womb? What else do we need to know about it?

My believe is that they didn't tell you that they're atheists nor Shiite. You just used it to insult them.
Background reading on the fact that the first link you shared is of a woman who is a gestational carrier and not an ovary donor.

OvaSabi1:
I like the way you arrived at that your master-slave analogy. Wuru wuru to the answer. Every argument I have seen against this has not been able to do without the "western" angle. How about the millions of women in low income countries who are infertile? Or is it only western women who use surrogacy?

Well, Western world is the leading world in science and technology. So it is normal to cite them. Besides, they are also the highest rate in infertility cause by the same technological advancement of thier.That's why they go to remote countryside in 3rd world countries to pick these poor women. Their great strength is also thier weakness. If you think i made this up, do research for yourself.


It is very costly in the West to do surrogation as much as 130-150 thousand dollars. So they go over their like Banglashe, India, Sri Lanka etc to pay these women 7000-10000 dollars. I never said women in poor countries don't have fertility problems. They do too. Theirs is lower compare to the West. Technology contributed to this fertility problem and other causes as well.

Debaiz:
Islaam is a pure religion and thus emphasizes greatly on the preservation and purity of one’s lineage. This is maintained by having no involvement from a third person. A child’s parents are his father and mother.


I disagree that it is too small to form a DNA. with all the body chemicals and fluid exchanges between mother and child for 9months, someone will now say it is too small to form a DNA. In 9months if constant supply? It may be too small for it to have a significant impact on the formation or the development of the child but definitely not the formation of DNA and that doesn’t mean the lineage has not been contaminated. It may be too small to have any significant effect but it is not too small for it to be detected by DNA test. Remember DNA test results are expressed in percentage. The result will prove that you have 87% chance of being the father. Did you ever wonder why not 100%. What happen to the remaining 13%? The tiny DNA strings from the surrogate mother and many other things are what makes up the remaining 13%.

There was a report that AS, SS and other genotypes where as a result of centuries of DNA altering due to some factors beyond human control. Meaning that in the beginning of time there was nothing like AS and SS.


Before I drift too far, the main bone of contention that most people miss here is the preservation and purity of one’s lineage and if you’re to talk about purification of one’s lineage then you need to talk about DNA and if you’re talking about purification in Islam there’s nothing like 99%. It has to be 100% except things that are beyond your control(like diseases).


Bottom line it’s no matter how small the DNA strand is as long as it is present then the talk of preservation and purity is out of the window.

What this your reasoning means is that if you have a terminally child that needs a stem cell transplant, you will let him die because you want your lineage to be pure. With all due respect you are a wicked man.

Empiree:
Well, Western world is the leading world in science and technology. So it is normal to cite them. Besides, they are also the highest rate in infertility cause by the same technological advancement of thier.That's why they go to remote countryside in 3rd world countries to pick these poor women. Their great strength is also thier weakness. If you think i made this up, do research for yourself.


It is very costly in the West to do surrogation as much as 130-150 thousand dollars. So they go over their like Banglashe, India, Sri Lanka etc to pay these women 7000-10000 dollars. I never said women in poor countries don't have fertility problems. They do too. Theirs is lower compare to the West. Technology contributed to this fertility problem and other causes as well.

Which study that is peer reviewed, do you have to cite regarding your assertion that Western women have a lower fertility rate and that this is based on their technological advancement too

Debaiz:
Your response alone has given you away as a non medical student so you have no moral right whatsoever to attempt burning any school down.


A comment was made as a medical person if you are(obviously you’re not) should give a your contrary opinion based on facts rather than attempting to burn a school.


What a laughable submission. Let’s hear your opinion on it rather than castigate or are you afraid it may be too stupid for the internet to accommodate?

Sure

Empiree:
Well, Western world is the leading world in science and technology. So it is normal to cite them. Besides, they are also the highest rate in infertility cause by the same technological advancement of thier.That's why they go to remote countryside in 3rd world countries to pick these poor women. Their great strength is also thier weakness. If you think i made this up, do research for yourself.


It is very costly in the West to do surrogation as much as 130-150 thousand dollars. So they go over their like Banglashe, India, Sri Lanka etc to pay these women 7000-10000 dollars. I never said women in poor countries don't have fertility problems. They do too. Theirs is lower compare to the West. Technology contributed to this fertility problem and other causes as well.

I had a fertility clinic in Lagos I can assure you fertility issues are rife regardless of location.
Higher in Nigeria based on population size

tintingz:
Read the article, the cell from the surrogate mother is small to form DNA in the baby, there's no effect.

Sperm and eggs of the intended parents are collected, this way it becomes the DNA.

Stop arguing with people who can't use google to educate themselves.

MissRaine69:
I had a fertility clinic in Lagos I can assure you fertility issues are rife regardless of location.
Higher in Nigeria based on population size

Thank God you said LAGOS. Lagos is a big city.

So I guess I was trying to tell you that this fertility issue is high in technologically advanced areas. Lagos is advance. You can't compare it to remote country side. I said in my previous post that those Western women go to 3rd countries usually remote places. This is not difficult to understand now.

YakubuA:
The Sahabah (RA) do not need to witness modern day development for them to be our reference point in understanding Islam. The point is that they do not undertake any action until they get clearance from the Prophet that it is permissible. Even after the Prophet passed away they refer all matters to the Qur'an and Sunnah as directed by Allah (swt). And the command is still valid on us today. As you know there are 4 sources of Shari'a confirmed by Allah(swt) Qur'an, Sunnah, IjmaasSahabah and Qiyas.

Should I give you another sahih hadith which says at the head of every 100 years, Allah will raise an Alim to reform teachings of Islam?

If Islamic understanding should be restricted with the understanding of 1400 sahabah, there won't be need for reformers at the head of every 100 years.

Wake up. Sahabah knows nothing about 14th century sorrugacy.

OvaSabi1:
Which study that is peer reviewed, do you have to cite regarding your assertion that Western women have a lower fertility rate and that this is based on their technological advancement too

why do you think they protest power plants from being installed in inhabited neighborhood?. It is because this power line, wireless/WiFi poles emit radiation which affect fertility. Don't get me wrong. It affects men too.


"Their great strength is their weakened"

sarahade:
Exactly will a child grown inside the incubator have machine genes or characteristics.

Some people are just pretenders if faced with the option ask them if they won't do it. Bunch of hypocrites.

You and that guy are mental cases.

You think your "thining" is needed whenever deciding Islamic issues.

I time shall come when you will all bow to. Islamic dictates.

We use to say that shaking hands among unrated men and women is forbidden you stated calling us backward, but now even Americans the "beacon of democracy " are considering seriously not shaking hands.

You use to mock us for keeping beard, but today we hardly know who is a Muslim and who isn't because of the number of persons now into the "beard gang" thing.

tintingz:


Reason I drop another source.

Lol, one of the weird believe in Islam, I think I I'll create a thread on the "weird beliefs in Islam".

Breast feeding can make one(adopted child) related but should not take the father's name - Muhammad.

What was Mr perfect thinking to have mention that.

This hubris this guy carries around makes him think knowledge starts and ends with him.

You can keep refuting Islamic rules with your thinking and your illogics but you will not understand why these rules are made.

Keep reading your science as your God perhaps one day you will realize that things are not all about atoms.

Khaleell001:
You and that guy are mental cases.

You think your "thining" is needed whenever deciding Islamic issues.

I time shall come when you will all bow to. Islamic dictates.

We use to say that shaking hands among unrated men and women is forbidden you stated calling us backward, but now even Americans the "beacon of democracy " are considering seriously not shaking hands.

You use to mock us for keeping beard, but today we hardly know who is a Muslim and who isn't because of the number of persons now into the "beard gang" thing.

Smh.

OvaSabi1:
What this your reasoning means is that if you have a terminally child that needs a stem cell transplant, you will let him die because you want your lineage to be pure. With all due respect you are a wicked man.

Another false equivalence.
The primary discuss here is at the foetal level not the developmental level.
Transplant is allowed in Islām based on certain conditions, but surrogacy is a topic that is clearly goes against basic Islamic principles regarding child birth ence it's prohibition.

OvaSabi1:
What this your reasoning means is that if you have a terminally child that needs a stem cell transplant, you will let him die because you want your lineage to be pure. With all due respect you are a wicked man.

Another false equivalence.
The primary discuss here is at the foetal level not the developmental level.
Transplant is allowed in Islām based on certain conditions, but surrogacy is a topic that is clearly goes against basic Islamic principles regarding child birth hence it's prohibition.

sarahade:
Stop arguing with people who can't use google to educate themselves.

And google is everything in this world shey?

MissRaine69:
I had a fertility clinic in Lagos I can assure you fertility issues are rife regardless of location.
Higher in Nigeria based on population size

based on which stats?
yours?

sarahade:
Smh.

Keep shaking it and I hope it does it fall off from your excessive trash talk.

Guest007:
They never do. I think a man's sperm with his wife's egg in another woman should be okay but using another sperm or egg, requires you to have the child know who their other siblings are. What if you were an egg and you end up marrying your brother from the donor. Islam is common sense. I could see where surrogacy unchecked can be Haram. A child has a right to its biological lineage for many reasons!

@bolded, Does this not also apply to those that adopt a child?

tintingz:
@bolded, Does this not also apply to those that adopt a child?

That's why adopted children keep their name. Those who donate sperm are victims of this, and I am positive sperm donations are Haram.

Guest007:
That's why adopted children keep their name. Those who donate sperm are victims of this, and I am positive sperm donations are Haram.

Does name proves one's genetic? I mean I've met ladies bearing my surname. Some children are found in the street, abandoned place, so?

Secondly, there are no even strong chances they will meet.

tintingz:
Does name proves one's genetic? I mean I've met ladies bearing my surname. Some children are found in the street, abandoned place, so?

Secondly, there are no even strong chances they will meet.

It's not the same as the topic question anyway. I could see where surrogacy can be Haram, and I didn't even think about it so thanks for the reminder