₦airaland Forum

johnydon22:
Something can be ordered and still not have specific parts with specific functions. A circle is an ordered pattern.

A circle can come as a result of conscious intent - design

And it also can come from a random process even chaotic ones if you will.

See the way you're just contradicting yourself.
Doesn't circle have a specific function?

A random event can produce circle, that's true! But how many times if repeated with the same event will produce a circle? That's the point.

I actually do not know. We are carbon based life, so we can't really conclusively assert what and how life could exist based on our experiences on earth.

Life could happen anywhere even on Jupiter.

Heck, Titan is one of the biggest candidates based on our own standards to possess life in this solar system and it's not even close to where the earth is.

Now imagine a universe with so many planets we don't even have the number to quantify it. You can't possibly account for the right conditiond necessary for life except for the type of life that you are used except you are saying that life can only possibly happen one way.

After you've established that you're a carbon based life, you went further to contradict yourself. You said life could happen even in Jupiter yet no scientists will ever made that statement.

So what stop other planets to have life?

Lol. The bigger pointet to conscious intent would be if the planets switched suddenly without apparent physical cause.

Physical cause is dead to a random event.

What mile/per would be wrong?

Anything less/high than what earth is now.

The time bacteria first evolved

What was the quantity of oxygen then and since when does the one we have now stabilized?

Why is the quantity does change again?

So, you reached a quantifiable variable of 0 for a probability problem but couldn't show the logical deductions (maths) that led to that conclusion?

That's not a good way to make a case of your argument being valid bro.

On what basis did I draw my first probability?

It's evident you didn't grab my point then...

This is my statement again!

"It shows these elements are following a lay down rules that didn't change from beginning because had it been they were not designed to be so, the probability that these things will continue to repeat their operations for million years (as some scientists believe) is Capital ZERO!"

johnydon22:
So, it is possible that man wasn't designed at a physical level then?

I didn't say nor imply that.

An has several factors that make him unique in creation:
Bipedal motion
Bifocal eyes
Opposing thumb
Slow sexual maturity
Big brains etc

johnydon22:
The argument of design is one of the best arguments those who argue for the existence of God has in their arsenal, I myself consider the argument of design a very profound, logical and probable argument.

You see, but i have noticed one thing, those who usually use this argument seldom define for the merit of their argument how they recognize when something is designed? Or at least, things that makes it fair to assume that something is designed.

And on the other hand, those that argue against design, I'd say do not seem to also show that they understand what the fundamental premise that leads to the assumption of design.

This thread is to vet exactly what the proponents of the argument of design mean when they make such argument.

How do you recognize design?

What are the pointers that make you think it is logical to assume something was designed?

Have you seen the movie "City of Ember"? I highly recommend you do if you haven't.It's not necessarily related to the topic but it's good.
Everything that is designed has a potential manual or guide that provides it's users/people curious as to how the designed product works with detailed information about it's functions and how to utilize said product efficiently.
Whether the universe is a result of intelligent design or not is still up for debate but man's curiosity over time through science, philosophy,experience etc has enabled him to acquire knowledge about the universe which we've used to create a work in progress guide about the universe which has substantial information about the nature and structure of the universe although largely incomplete.

EmperorHarry:
Have you seen the movie "City of Ember"? I highly recommend you do if you haven't. It's not necessarily related to the topic but it's good.

"City of Ember" is a bit of a boring movie to spend almost two hours to watch over. The only connect the movie has, to what you're advancing, is the missing small metal box with a list of instructions

EmperorHarry:
Everything that is designed has a potential manual or guide that provides it's users/people curious as to how the designed product works with detailed information about it's functions and how to utilize said product efficiently.
Whether the universe is a result of intelligent design or not is still up for debate but man's curiosity over time through science, philosophy, experience etc has enabled him to acquire knowledge about the universe which we've used to create a work in progress guide about the universe which has substantial information about the nature and structure of the universe although largely incomplete.

"²⁴When Moses had finished writing this entire body of instruction in a book,
²⁵he gave this command to the Levites who carried the Ark of the LORD’s Covenant:
²⁶“Take this Book of Instruction and place it beside the Ark of the Covenant of the LORD your God,
so it may remain there as a witness against the people of Israel. "
- Deuteronomy 31:24-26

"Then Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the scribe,
“I have found the Book of the Law in the house of the LORD!”
And he gave it to Shaphan, who read it."
- 2 Kings 22:8

Haba at the emboldened above, kilo de, why nau?

MuttleyLaff:
"City of Ember" is a bit of a boring movie to spend almost two hours to watch over. The only connect the movie has, to what you're advancing, is the missing small metal box with a list of instructions

That's an example of how design works and how it can be recognized. I totally enjoyed the movie and it's just a suggestion cos it brings about a special kind of enlightenment about dogma,bigotry,extortion,corruption etc...Not many mainstream movies offer that kind of relative experience. It was the first thing that popped up in my head and it's been a while since I saw it so it's message really stuck with me.

"²⁴When Moses had finished writing this entire body of instruction in a book,
²⁵he gave this command to the Levites who carried the Ark of the LORD’s Covenant:
²⁶“Take this Book of Instruction and place it beside the Ark of the Covenant of the LORD your God,
so it may remain there as a witness against the people of Israel. "
- Deuteronomy 31:24-26

"Then Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the scribe,
“I have found the Book of the Law in the house of the LORD!”
And he gave it to Shaphan, who read it."
- 2 Kings 22:8

Haba at the emboldened above, kilo de, why nau?

I don't get the quoted and bolded?!

EmperorHarry:
That's an example of how design works and can be recognized. I totally enjoyed the movie and it's just a suggestion cos it brings about a special kind of enlightenment about dogma,bigotry,extortion,corruption etc...Not many mainstream movies offer that kind of relative experience.

I don't get the quoted and bolded?!

The scriptural references agrees with you as regards, the paragraph above the "whether the universe is a result of intelligent design or not is still up for debate" emboldened comment.

I just found it incredulous you saying "Whether the universe is a result of intelligent design or not, is still up for debate". C'mon now, not agreeing in some semblance of intelligence and/or design, no matter how minute or small it is, behind the universe is utterly absurd and/or ridiculous. What's to debate there?

MuttleyLaff:
The scriptural references agrees with you as regards, the paragraph above the "whether the universe is a result of intelligent design or not is still up for debate" emboldened comment.

I just found it incredulous you saying "Whether the universe is a result of intelligent design or not, is still up for debate". C'mon now, not agreeing in some semblance of intelligence and/or design, no matter how minute or small it is, behind the universe is utterly absurd and/or ridiculous. What's to debate there?

Lol guessed as much but didn't want to start jumping into conclusions.
I made that statement to show how open minded I am to the possibility of either being the truth. They are both theories and none of them a fact. The nature of the universe supports the intelligent designer theory which I stated after but maybe what we believe to be design is just an illusion created by our obsession with patterns and models which is mostly unlikely but still a possibility. We only understand the universe from the human perspective so nothing is a given.

EmperorHarry:
Lol guessed as much but didn't want to start jumping into conclusions.
I made that statement to show how open minded I am to the possibility of either being the truth. They are both theories and none of them a fact. The nature of the universe supports the intelligent designer theory which I stated after but maybe what we believe to be design is just an illusion created by our obsession with patterns and models which is mostly unlikely but still a possibility. We only understand the universe from the human perspective so nothing is a given.

[img]https://s3/images/HeightView.jpg[/img]

[img]https://s3/images/DiffHeightSameView.jpg[/img]

[img]https://s3/images/SmartAssMuttlely.jpg[/img]

Even if you havent ever seen the ocean or salt, have you not tasted salt in food?
If you dont know what an elephant is, dont you recognise an elephant trumpeting?

The fifth person, not in the picture, isnt standing on anything and so not seeing anything either.
C'est la vie, that's life, isnt it, in jpegs?

MuttleyLaff:
[img]https://s3/images/HeightView.jpg[/img]

[img]https://s3/images/DiffHeightSameView.jpg[/img]

Even if you havent ever seen the ocean or salt, have you not tasted salt in food?

But what if it's not just salt that's salty in taste?

If you dont know what an elephant is, dont recognise an elephant trumpeting?

Humans and mammoths can produce almost the same sound as the elephant.
A once had an argument with a nairalander about the natural state between light and dark. He argued that darkness is the absence of light and light needs a source therefore darkness is the natural state.This a very logical argument and wouldn't need any further premises. This conclusion would only be reasonable from a human perspective. To a bat for example,the presence of light is darkness because it's ability to see becomes limited or hindered. The light bulb switch now goes both ways.To a human,switching the light bulb on makes it the source of light and improves our ability to see but to a bat,the reverse is the case. So you see the thing is you can't necessarily conclude that anything/phenomenon is a given or fact if you don't take into consideration the different perspectives available.The only option is to try to understand the universe from a human perspective but also keeping it in mind that we most probably don't know jack about the it.

Side note: I began a research after I became curious about how flies are faster than humans and spend little time in a spot except when feeding etc. The answer is pretty obvious without need of external information which is their perception of time is way faster than ours.I decided to also find out what other creatures view time differently,turns out devices with screens have a blink rate that's perceived by dogs and other animals. So when dogs watch TV they are constantly interrupted by blank screens before the next photo but you can't see the blank screen. This is just to corroborate my point.

EmperorHarry:
But what if it's not just salt that's salty in taste?

Humans and mammoths can produce almost the same sound as the elephant.
A once had an argument with a nairalander about the natural state between light and dark. He argued that darkness is the absence of light and light needs a source therefore darkness is the natural state. This a very logical argument and wouldn't need any further premises. This conclusion would only be reasonable from a human perspective. To a bat for example, the presence of light is darkness because it's ability to see becomes limited or hindered. The light bulb switch now goes both ways.To a human, switching the light bulb on makes it the source of light and improves our ability to see but to a bat, the reverse is the case. So you see the thing is you can't necessarily conclude that anything/phenomenon is a given or fact if you don't take into consideration the different perspectives available. The only option is to try to understand the universe from a human perspective but also keeping it in mind that we most probably don't know jack about the it.

Bats are nocturnal animals, and dont necessarily need sight to clearly see, as its echoed back sounds, they use in knowing which way go or direction to move. The underlined emboldened sums everything up.

EmperorHarry:
Side note: I began a research after I became curious about how flies are faster than humans and spend little time in a spot except when feeding etc. The answer is pretty obvious without need of external information which is their perception of time is way faster than ours.I decided to also find out what other creatures view time differently, turns out devices with screens have a blink rate that's perceived by dogs and other animals. So when dogs watch TV they are constantly interrupted by blank screens before the next photo but you can't see the blank screen. This is just to corroborate my point.

The fly thing is about survival. It has to do with nature's "built ins", and so similar to, why men, literally are 45 seconds men. Men arent naturally expected to be spending all day bumping and grinding away, so the smart ones of us, learn and develop the "natural" ability, to last longer than 45 seconds, holding back, waiting for missus or madam to catch up with us , so we both land at the promised land, seventh heaven or cloud nine, together or almost at the same time

MuttleyLaff:
Bats are nocturnal animals, and dont necessarily need sight to clearly see, as its echoed back sounds, they use in knowing which way go or direction to move. The underlined emboldened sums everything up.

Oops..Would you look at that? I learnt something new today.Rad.

The fly thing is about survival. It has to do with nature's "built ins", and so similar to, why men, literally are 45 seconds men. Men arent naturally expected to be spending all day bumping and grinding, we learn and develop the 'natural" ability to last longer than 45 seconds, holding back waiting for missus or madam to catch up with us before we both land at the promised land, seventh heaven or cloud nine.

@bolded A reference to design but I don't agree that we're 45 seconds men by nature..Lol.. Give men a little credit.

EmperorHarry:
Oops..Would you look at that? I learnt something new today.Rad.

The geek, nerd or "anorak" way of describing it, is what's called sonar (i.e. sound navigation ranging)

EmperorHarry:
@bolded A reference to design but I don't agree that we're 45 seconds men by nature..Lol.. Give men a little credit.

Trust me, man was designed as a 45 seconds man. Imagine, man spending all day at bumping and grinding, when there's lot of work that needs getting done. No siree!. Thats not on, it has to be wham, bang, thank you ma'am, and get back to the field to labour but you, I guess, like the among the smart ones like us, acquired the ability to last longer than 45 seconds, holding back, waiting for missus or madam to catch up with us, so we both can land at the promised land, seventh heaven or cloud nine together or almost at the same time

MuttleyLaff:
The geek, nerd or "anorak" way of describing it, is what's called sonar (i.e. sound navigation ranging)

I've know about echolocation(in animals) and how visibly impaired have learnt to use it to move around but I always thought bats had this thing for light in sunlight regardless of echo location I knew that artificial light is a huge disadvantage to bats but seems natural light isn't so bad after all.Thanks for the enlightenment,I'm crossing off bats from my examples when making a related argument about Light and Darkness.

Trust me, man was designed as a 45 seconds man. Imagine, man spending all day at bumping and grinding, when there's lot of work that needs getting done. No siree!. Thats not on, it has to be wham, bang, thank you ma'am, and get back to the field to labour but you, I guess, like the among the smart ones like us, acquired the ability to last longer than 45 seconds, holding back, waiting for missus or madam to catch up with us, so we both can land at the promised land, seventh heaven or cloud nine together or almost at the same time

Well pre-intimacy and screwing around does help in elongating the duration of coitus but we certainly don't beat the meat within 45 secs bruh even with pornos. You've probably drawn a comparison with other male species like the legendary cockerel(hats off) along the line which could have influenced your position. But it's all good tho whether it's the true nature of man or not.

EmperorHarry:
I've know about echolocation(in animals) and how visibly impaired have learnt to use it to move around but I always thought bats had this thing for light in sunlight regardless of echo location I knew that artificial light is a huge disadvantage to bats but seems natural light isn't so bad after all. Thanks for the enlightenment

Bats dont mind natural light. There used to hundred of bats upside down perching on this huge tree when back in days, I was in boarding school. New students easily mistake for birds, when they first see them fly in and out of the tree during day and they make a hell of noise too if I do remember correctly

EmperorHarry:
I'm crossing off bats from my examples when making a related argument about Light and Darkness.

People argue because they want to exchange opinions, but if you have facts, you'll be discussing instead and not having an argument(s)

EmperorHarry:
Well fôreplay and screwing around does help in elongating the duration of coitus

Screwing around is a total no, no. Why would you want to be screwing around, huh? Who does that, cha. What does actually help, aside fôreplay, is kegel exercise and other mastering techniques

EmperorHarry:
but we certainly don't beat the meat within 45 secs bruh even with pornos

You'll be surprised the number of 45 seconds men suffering in silence and embrassment out there.

EmperorHarry:
You've probably drawn a comparison with other male species like the legendary cockerel(hats off) along the line which could have influenced your position. But it's all good tho whether it's the true nature of man or not.

Just like you, I too do muse over quite a range of lots of different subjects, from the mundane to the fascinating, this 45 seconds man, happens to be one of them. Nature is very very interesting, why are dogs locked in, like say, for 10-40 minutes. Everything has its reasons, and like you earlier said, and this is paraphrasing you, to understand them from a human perspective but also keeping it in mind that we most probably wouldn't know jack about the it.

MuttleyLaff:
Bats dont mind natural light. There used to hundred of bats upside down perching on this huge tree when back in days, I was in boarding school. New students easily mistake for birds, when they first see them fly in and out of the tree during day and they make a hell of noise too if I do remember correctly

Seems they are just suckers for heat which also explains the vampire connections.

Screwing around is a total no, no. Why would you want to be screwing around, huh? Who does that, cha. What does actually help, aside fôreplay, is kegel exercise and other mastering techniques

Lol...Screwing around is almost the same as pre-intimacy without the storylines and sh!t in case your taking it the wrong way.

You'll be surprised the number of 45 seconds men suffering in silence and embrassment out there.

Lmao...I hear you bro..I've said my own.It's only a dysfunction that can cause a man to be a "45 seconds man". A quickie is man's natural state excluding exceptions and rare cases but a quickie is more than 45 seconds.Somewhere between 3-10mins.

Just like you, I too do muse over quite a range of lots of different subjects, from the mundane to the fascinating, this 45 seconds man, happens to be one of them. Nature is very very interesting, why are dogs locked in, like say, for 10-40 minutes. Everything has its reasons, and like you earlier said, and this is paraphrasing you, to understand them from a human perspective but also keeping it in mind that we most probably wouldn't know jack about the it.

Word @bolded..I spend most of my free time on the discovery channel and Nat geo.

EmperorHarry:
Lol guessed as much but didn't want to start jumping into conclusions.
I made that statement to show how open minded I am to the possibility of either being the truth. They are both theories and none of them a fact. The nature of the universe supports the intelligent designer theory which I stated after but maybe what we believe to be design is just an illusion created by our obsession with patterns and models which is mostly unlikely but still a possibility. We only understand the universe from the human perspective so nothing is a given.

I think a better alternate question to ask is:
How can we decide if an arrangement/collection is a design or not!

There are some simple rule to use:
1. If there seem to be an order then design is feasible
2. If the order contains interdependent systems then design is highly feasible
3. If the systems have useful functions, then design is most certainly feasible
4. If systems seem to obey some rules, then design is without question.
4. If there seem to be some level of programming then design is 100% certain

On the earth and with its constituents, all these are evident hence logically design is the basis of earth's existence

johnydon22:
So tell me, to what did you compare the universe to conclude thr universe is designed?

I.e: You think design can be inferred by comparing the design from the undesigned.

But for this comparison to happen, you must have already assumed one is designed and one isn't.

Sorry bro for the delay in my response.

Obviously the comparison with the universe is not with materials without but those within that constitute an integral part of the universe and makes it to be what it is.

Hence my suggestion that a material is fundamental to recognizing a design, for if one has prior knowledge of an undesigned material, it's easier to tell the designed, and consequently the design.

And I also talked about the key factor of organization in distinguishing between a designed and undesigned material.

And to be honest with you it seemed the "Designer" Himself had some interest in your question concerning the design, for when I first saw it my head was blank, that is there was absolutely nothing going on in that respect.

But then I heard the Word "organization" repeatedly out of nowhere, and that was the basis upon which I was able to put my humble submission together.

However I also wanted to suggest that maybe someone could use that basis to do a better job, because this was not my field, so I wasn't surprised that Shadeyinka who you opined had presented the best argument for design, also used organization as a basis.

And i think that he killed the argument, even with his last submission, for when I saw it I thought it brought the thread to a logical conclusion, hence didn't want to spoil it.

But on a second thought I decided to go ahead with my response while acknowledging it at the same time.

So props shadeyinka for a job well done on the behalf of the Designer.

Here's an interesting question, how does a baby learn what is food and what is not?

LordReed:
Here's an interesting question, how does a baby learn what is food and what is not?

Simple: It doesn't. That's why given the opportunity, they eat sand.

johnydon22:
Simple: It doesn't. That's why given the opportunity, they eat sand.

Why?

LordReed:
Why?

Babies don't have sense. Lol. A baby is an open empty board that only gets filled up by mimicry of it's immediate influences (parents and other humans)

johnydon22:
Babies don't have sense. Lol. A baby is an open empty board that only gets filled up by mimicry of it's immediate influences (parents and other humans)

Exactly. It is the same way we learn what design is.

LordReed:
Exactly. It is the same way we learn what design is.

Lol. Ok

Jump into our evolution vs design thread. I believe I mentioned you