₦airaland Forum

Jozzy4:
You are now agreeing with claim ba? @ red . Breeze don blow at your lies

First of all, the red part you pointed out was a reference to what he said, about Greek word for DEATH which I mean they might not be the same.

So far you're the liar here who claimed Sleep is not synonymous to Death

The Person simply died . But didn't sleep as they are raised in the twinkling of an eye.

The Greek word for die is different from the one at 1Cor 15:51. So Paul isn't saying they won't die

The problem you have is lack of comprehension...
FALLEN ASLEEP has been used by Apostle Paul is about DEATH.

If the person are raised in the twinkling of an eye....then beg for when did that raising in twinkling of an eye stop? Are people died today still raised in twinkling of an eye?

Revelation 20:6 says ruling with Christ is for those who experience first resurrection . showing death is a must. Before resurrection must come death

We all know before resurrection there must be death the point is, at the second coming of Christ not everyone will die before they meet the Lord.

We are now at Christ's presence ( Matthew 24 the signs are evident ) . and that's the period the Bible placed the first ressurection . 1The 4:15-17 so Paul is currently ressurected to heaven to rule with Christ

Christ has not come....Matt 24 stated it clearly that whatever that'll happen all just SIGNS of His second coming.

Only your organization uses the event of World War to lie about second coming.

It does separate , this is where 1The 4:15-17 comes in it says ' The living won't precede those already died for years ' . cos those living at the time of Christ presence would have to wait for their own death too, but unlike those ones. They would be ressurected in an instant as a spirit being.

So what of WE today

Remember in that verse your brother emphasis on WE which included Apostle Paul.

Emusan:
So what of WE today

Remember in that verse your brother emphasis on WE which included Apostle Paul.

Jesus said all those exercising faith in him will NEVER DIE AT ALL!

These are not the born again Christians amongst whom apostle Paul is one of them. All the born again must die first before they can be transformed, but as for millions of those putting faith in what the born again Christians have been teaching us we will not have to die if God's kingdom comes today!

As for the remaining ones who are still living amongst the born again Christians, these are the ones who won't SLEEP IN DEATH because instantly as they die they will be transformed unlike their other members who have been sleeping in death since the first century.

The only bone of contention here is that Jehovah's Witnesses organization claim they have been resurrected in 1914 when Jesus came back IN SPIRIT to take them home as he promised them, and according to this organization it's since then that Jesus has been using God's holy spirit to separate faithful people from hypocrites to gather them together as a recognisable group.
Well back in the early twentieth century all the things Jehovah's Witnesses were saying was like seeing something like shadows but today the whole world can see Jehovah's Witnesses as the one and only unique group that stands out totally different from all others.
Permit me to say that really touched me to believe that Jesus truthfully came back in 1914 and has been doing so many things amongst Jehovah's Witnesses in order to cleanse this organization. Many of the members you're seeing today will still disassociate with this group because Jesus is implementing series of changes in their midst so all those who can't adapt must take their leave!

achorladey:
" Notice that regarding the death of both Lazarus and Jairus’ daughter, Jesus compared death to sleep. That is a fitting comparison. Why? Sleep is an unconscious state and suitably conveys the idea of REST from pain and suffering.

Does DEATH equally conveys the IDEA of REST from PAIN and SUFFERING?

God told Adam "in PAINS you will eat the fruitage of the soil UNTIL YOU RETURN TO THE DUST" Genesis 3:17-19

Note the word "IN PAINS" you "UNTIL".

Definitely death is rest from pains that the living experience everyday, because there is no work, suffering, pain, stress or headache in the grave where all dead people go! Ecclesiastes 9:10

Jozzy4:
Liarrrrrrrrr Jozzy4, 419, that same word was applied to living persons proving The word itself doesn't mean death or equal death.

Your lie was that SLEEP NEVER SYNONYMOUS TO DEATH nobody says sleep means death but our point is what you agreed with below.

But when its used for a dead person, means they are sleeping in death or waiting in the grave.

The main point here is that THE PERSON REFERRING to it's no more ALIVE which means as Apostle Paul used FALLEN ASLEEP it means they were no more in the state of living.

It carries a sense of resting in death awaiting who will wake them up.

Whether waiting in death or in grave, the key word is that the person no more in the state of ALIVE!

While for living long period of rest until they are awaken. the concept is to be in a state of sleep. Closing eyes and opening it immediately is not sleep.

It has been established that FALLEN ASLEEP as used by Apostle Paul means DEATH, you're the one who decided to add your own as it's twinkling of an eye or waiting in death in grave.

Revelation 20:6 says for anyone to rule with Christ as King and Priest , they must die and be ressurected . so death is compulsory.

That's not the point of Rev 20:6, you're just twisting scripture here to suit your evil desires.

Rev 20:6 is about those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ, they never worshipped the beast or having the mark of the beast either in their head or hand. It's only an agent of darkness that can comfortably twist scripture the way you people do.

But for some , since their resurrection would be instant they won't actually sleep.

This is where the point lies, THE SOME here, who are they?

WASN'T APOSTLE PAUL part of the WE in that verse?

1 Thess 4:16-17 talk about "Christ descending from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel"

You people took "....with the voice of the archangel..." literally to mean Christ is an Angel but took the rest as figurative....


Hypocrite JWs

Emusan:
First of all, the red part you pointed out was a reference to what he said, about Greek word for DEATH which I mean they might not be the same.

So far you're the liar here who claimed Sleep is not synonymous to Death

Just admit it already, the word Paul use is not the same as die. Which has a different Greek word and was used in that same 1Cor 15. It simply means resting for a period of time.

The problem you have is lack of comprehension...
FALLEN ASLEEP has been used by Apostle Paul is about DEATH.

That Word conveys a deep sleep . Doesn't apply to someone ressurected in an instant . it was also applied to Peter when he was in prison. Its in no way a synonym for death. Hence Peter would be a dead man when it says he fell asleep.

If the person are raised in the twinkling of an eye....then beg for when did that raising in twinkling of an eye stop? Are people died today still raised in twinkling of an eye?

Its still going on. Its known as the first ressurection which is for those who will rule with Christ

We all know before resurrection there must be death the point is, at the second coming of Christ not everyone will die before they meet the Lord

Everyone who have the hope of ruling with Christ must die. Rev 20:6

Christ has not come....Matt 24 stated it clearly that whatever that'll happen all just SIGNS of His second coming.

Only your organization uses the event of World War to lie about second coming.

Everyone knows that Greek word means presence . but let's say you which it's rendered coming , Coming can mean " Arrival " agree ?

That would in essence mean Sign of his arrival. Which is the exact timing for your so called flying in the air . y'all should be flying already

So what of WE today

Remember in that verse your brother emphasis on WE which included Apostle Paul.

First ressurection is going on for those who have the heavenly calling. Death is compulsory to have a part in ruling with Christ.

Jozzy4:
Just admit it already, the word Paul use is not the same as die. Which has a different Greek word and was used in that same 1Cor 15. It simply means resting for a period of time.

The word Paul used is FALLEN ASLEEP which occurred in many places in the scripture to mean the person is DEATH

>>>Lazarus fallen asleep
>>>Stephen being stoned crying with a loud voice and fell asleep...

All this indicated that what Apostle Paul meant by fallen asleep is death, so we shall not all SLEEP mean we shall not all DIED

That Word conveys a deep sleep . Doesn't apply to someone ressurected in an instant . it was also applied to Peter when he was in prison. Its in no way a synonym for death. Hence Peter would be a dead man when it says he fell asleep.

You're the one who decided to interpret it as DEEP SLEEP as the word was used by Paul it means DEATH in a sense of how it has been applied to many people in the scripture.

Its still going on. Its known as the first ressurection which is for those who will rule with Christ

So you mean Christ is still resurrecting people to heaven now.

I thought your lying organization said, the number of 144,000 who will reign with Christ is over

Everyone who have the hope of ruling with Christ must die. Rev 20:6

Again, Rev 20:6 it's not about anyone who has the hope of ruling with Christ but those who refuse to receive the mark of the beast and worshipped the beast and also beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Are you not hoping of ruling with Christ, if I may ask?

Everyone knows that Greek word means presence . but let's say you which it's rendered coming , Coming can mean " Arrival " agree ?

Coming is a future sentence not what have been done....

Arrival means the action has been done....

Many scriptures talk about what will happen at the second coming...
>>>Trumpet shall sound: How many hear the trumpet in 1914?
>>>Christ will made a loud voice to cause the dead in Him to resurrect, How will this be without people hearing Him?
>>>The Lord HIMSELF shall descend, even Revelation supported this by saying PEOPLE WILL SEE HIM.

That would in essence mean Sign of his arrival. Which is the exact timing for your so called flying in the air . y'all should be flying already

Time of His arrival doesn't mean He has arrived....

When He arrived....people will wail because of Him Rev 1:7 did this happen in 1914?

First ressurection is going on for those who have the heavenly calling. Death is compulsory to have a part in ruling with Christ.

First resurrection according to Rev 20:6 is those beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ, who refuse the beast worship and its mark either on their head or hand.

Has this event taken place?

Emusan:
You look at the content of a statement first!

Besides, the bone contention here is, does sleep synonymous with death?

Which your brother first claimed it was not!



It might not be the same as death but it's evident wherever it used depending on the content means DEATH, is it true or false?

Its not death per say, cos it was applied to living humans too . Get that fact. It simply denote fallen asleep. When used with reference to a dead person, it contrast the fact that such a person is still lying awaiting resurrection

The question is, before this instant resurrection, what is the state of the person?

Also, who and who will experience instant resurrection?



To you



Emphasis on "WE" was Apostle Paul part of the WE or the rest of the people?

Is Apostle still in the grave now awaiting resurrection?



Clarify how the instant will be...
is the person will die and immediately he'll be resurrected?


Who are the one who will experience instant resurrection and who are the one who will wait in the grave?

Let's see if the scripture separates any.

1The 4:15-17


"According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, [b] will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. "


The bolded explains the difference . those who had fallen asleep or lay rest for all this years will rise first. After that, denoting a period for which those living will also have to die to experience their own resurrection, which in this case is instant. Revelation 20:6 says Happy is ANYONE who took part in the first ressurection because they shall rule with him for a thousand years.

This is the same Hope Paul and his counterparts to whom he wrote the letter had. Ruling as kings with Christ.

Logic demand that there should be no reason to separate the living from the dead if the death of the living ones is not essential. All should have been changed

Emusan:
The word Paul used is FALLEN ASLEEP which occurred in many places in the scripture to mean the person is DEATH

>>>Lazarus fallen asleep
>>>Stephen being stoned crying with a loud voice and fell asleep...

All this indicated that what Apostle Paul meant by fallen asleep is death, so we shall not all SLEEP mean we shall not all DIED

Paul was answering a question posed at verse 35: how are the dead raised ? ... Verse 51 was a reply that some are raised instantly.

The we shall not die theory not only doesn't fit the context of the questions he was answering but a direct violation of Revelation 20:6 ,

You're the one who decided to interpret it as DEEP SLEEP as the word was used by Paul it means DEATH in a sense of how it has been applied to many people in the scripture.

After giving you instances where that same word refer to deep sleep , you can still spill the nonsense above. The sense of the word is clear.

The question was " How are the dead raised ? " " How are the dead raised " .. Some are raised without them fallen alseep . as its instant

Again, Rev 20:6 it's not about anyone who has the hope of ruling with Christ but those who refuse to receive the mark of the beast and worshipped the beast and also beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Are you not hoping of ruling with Christ, if I may ask?

" Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. " - Rev 20:6

Reduce the volume of your lies.

Coming is a future sentence not what have been done....

Arrival means the action has been done....

Many scriptures talk about what will happen at the second coming...
>>>Trumpet shall sound: How many hear the trumpet in 1914?
>>>Christ will made a loud voice to cause the dead in Him to resurrect, How will this be without people hearing Him?
>>>The Lord HIMSELF shall descend, even Revelation supported this by saying PEOPLE WILL SEE HIM.

The text says this will happen at Christ parousia (presence) or arrival. And we have the signs of his PRESENCE already. Which means he is present. It was discerned spiritually . evidenced by people will see him even those who Roman soldiers that hit him u know ?

If you chose to go by the popular coming is a future occurrence, Its still the same thing. Which means he hasn't even arrived when that event happened . cos verse 15 says those who are left till the coming ( when he is still in a distant future ), and we have the signs of the coming already

Time of His arrival doesn't mean He has arrived....

When He arrived....people will wail because of Him Rev 1:7 did this happen in 1914?

Emusan, I understand you , even those roman soldiers that are dead who pierce him will see him too. Clap for yourself.

First resurrection according to Rev 20:6 is those beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ, who refuse the beast worship and its mark either on their head or hand.

Has this event taken place?

The point is: This is the hope many of those first century christians look forward to. Death is a must


" if we endure, we will also reign with him; "
- 2Tim 2:12


They must take a part in the ressurection to have this privilege of reigning with him- Revelation 20:6

Maximus69:
God told Adam "in PAINS you will eat the fruitage of the soil UNTIL YOU RETURN TO THE DUST" Genesis 3:17-19

Note the word "IN PAINS" you "UNTIL".

Definitely death is rest from pains that the living experience everyday, because there is no work, suffering, pain, stress or headache in the grave where all dead people go! Ecclesiastes 9:10

Seen I believe your brother has seen it LIKEWISE.

Jozzy4:
Just admit it already, the word Paul use is not the same as die. Which has a different Greek word and was used in that same 1Cor 15. It simply means resting for a period of time.



That Word conveys a deep sleep . Doesn't apply to someone ressurected in an instant . it was also applied to Peter when he was in prison. Its in no way a synonym for death. Hence Peter would be a dead man when it says he fell asleep.



Its still going on. Its known as the first ressurection which is for those who will rule with Christ



Everyone who have the hope of ruling with Christ must die. Rev 20:6



Everyone knows that Greek word means presence . but let's say you which it's rendered coming , Coming can mean " Arrival " agree ?

That would in essence mean Sign of his arrival. Which is the exact timing for your so called flying in the air . y'all should be flying already



First ressurection is going on for those who have the heavenly calling. Death is compulsory to have a part in ruling with Christ.

Jozzy4: Everyone who have the HOPE of ruling with Christ must die. Rev 20:6.

Achorladey: In the THEOLOGY of JWS that would be the 144,000 in fact SOME of them are RESURRECTED to heaven and are CONVEYING the spiritual TRUTH JWS enjoy TODAY.

You will come back and tell us that CHRISTIANS only HAVE ONE HOPE but TWO DESTINATIONS.
Let me copy your brother YEEBARIBA.

Barristter07:
Its not death per say, cos it was applied to living humans too . Get that fact. It simply denote fallen asleep. When used with reference to a dead person, it contrast the fact that such a person is still lying awaiting resurrection

ASLEEP has used by Apostle in that verse mean DEATH

1The 4:15-17
"According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. "

The bolded explains the difference . those who had fallen asleep or lay rest for all this years will rise first. After that, denoting a period for which those living will also have to die to experience their own resurrection, which in this case is instant.

This particular post, has a lot of points to be raised!

Those who still living will HAPPEN TILL THE COMING OF CHRIST.

You said "FALLEN ASLEEP OR REST FOR ALL THIS YEARS", Does "for all this years" include the old saints or starting from time of Christ?

The verses emphatically say "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven...." Has the Lord come down from heaven?

Also, "WE who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

Emphasis on WE as you said earlier, was Apostle Paul part of the WE?

Because I can see you have dodged your own emphasis.

Now do you agree that this event has taken place still taking place?

Revelation 20:6 says Happy is ANYONE who took part in the first ressurection because they shall rule with him for a thousand years.

Just I've been correcting your brother since, Rev 20:6 is about those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ and not have the mark of the beast either in their head or hand.

This is the same Hope Paul and his counterparts to whom he wrote the letter had. Ruling as kings with Christ.

So you mean Paul was part of the WE in those verses?

Logic demand that there should be no reason to separate the living from the dead if the death of the living ones is not essential. All should have been changed

You don't know this statement is against you and not me. let me rephrase the question

What is the reason of separating the dead from the living when both will eventually died?

The reason while the living are separated from the dead is what Apostle Paul himself said in 1 Corin 15 when he said "I show you a MYSTERY...." the mystery here is that "we shall not all SLEEP....but CHANGE" can you see?

If both will die then there's no need to CHANGE/TRANSFORM

Emusan:
ASLEEP has used by Apostle in that verse mean DEATH

If yes, That means Paul and all who won't die- won't reign with Christ

This particular post, has a lot of points to be raised!

Those who still living will HAPPEN TILL THE COMING OF CHRIST.

You said "FALLEN ASLEEP OR REST FOR ALL THIS YEARS", Does "for all this years" include the old saints or starting from time of Christ?

Born again Christians who looked forward to reigning with Christ as spirit persons.

The verses emphatically say "For the Lord himself will come down from heaven...." Has the Lord come down from heaven?

That's easy, the word parousia means presence. And we saw the signs of his presence already. Christ came invisibly.

Also, "WE who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."

Emphasis on WE as you said earlier, was Apostle Paul part of the WE?

He hope to be part of it, but since he died before Christ presence . he was among those who were raised when Christ presence starts .

Because I can see you have dodged your own emphasis.

Now do you agree that this event has taken place still taking place?

Its presently taking place. We are at Christ presence .

Just I've been correcting your brother since, Rev 20:6 is about those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ and not have the mark of the beast either in their head or hand.

Its about those who will reign with Christ. Its clear in the text.

So you mean Paul was part of the WE in those verses?



You don't know this statement is against you and not me. let me rephrase the question

What is the reason of separating the dead from the living when both will eventually died?

The reason while the living are separated from the dead is what Apostle Paul himself said in 1 Corin 15 when he said "I show you a MYSTERY...." the mystery here is that "we shall not all SLEEP....but CHANGE" can you see?

If both will die then there's no need to CHANGE/TRANSFORM

That change can only come by death. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. Hence the need to wait for the living to also die. Verse 36 says what you sow cannot come to life UNLESS FIRST IT DIES.

Here you are saying what they sow, their physical body will come to life without dying. Not at all.

Emusan:
The word Paul used is FALLEN ASLEEP which occurred in many places in the scripture to mean the person is DEATH

>>>Lazarus fallen asleep
>>>Stephen being stoned crying with a loud voice and fell asleep...

All this indicated that what Apostle Paul meant by fallen asleep is death, so we shall not all SLEEP mean we shall not all DIED



You're the one who decided to interpret it as DEEP SLEEP as the word was used by Paul it means DEATH in a sense of how it has been applied to many people in the scripture.



So you mean Christ is still resurrecting people to heaven now.

I thought your lying organization said, the number of 144,000 who will reign with Christ is over



Again, Rev 20:6 it's not about anyone who has the hope of ruling with Christ but those who refuse to receive the mark of the beast and worshipped the beast and also beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Are you not hoping of ruling with Christ, if I may ask?



Coming is a future sentence not what have been done....

Arrival means the action has been done....

Many scriptures talk about what will happen at the second coming...
>>>Trumpet shall sound: How many hear the trumpet in 1914?
>>>Christ will made a loud voice to cause the dead in Him to resurrect, How will this be without people hearing Him?
>>>The Lord HIMSELF shall descend, even Revelation supported this by saying PEOPLE WILL SEE HIM.



Time of His arrival doesn't mean He has arrived....

When He arrived....people will wail because of Him Rev 1:7 did this happen in 1914?



First resurrection according to Rev 20:6 is those beheaded for the testimony of Jesus Christ, who refuse the beast worship and its mark either on their head or hand.

Has this event taken place?

Emusan: Many scriptures talk about what will happen at the second coming...
>>>Trumpet shall sound: How many hear the trumpet in 1914?

Achorladey: JWS are still at INVISIBLE PRESENCE that INVISIBLE in front of the PRESENCE has coloured so many things. That have given them opportunity to jam "RETURN,COMING,ARRIVAL,PRESENCE" into something else.

Concerning 1914....... read the below

However, when the fulfillment of our expectations appears to be delayed, it may dampen our enthusiasm. We could even lose heart. (Prov. 13:12) This happened at the beginning of the 20th century. At that time, many anointed Christians expected to receive their heavenly reward in 1914. When that did not happen, how did faithful ones deal with their delayed expectations?

https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/watchtower-study-august-2019/we-do-not-give-up/

Ask anyone of them...........

Who told them they will RECEIVE their HEAVENLY REWARD in 1914?
Who DELAYED the EXPECTATIONS of 1914?

All na SPEC SPEC SPEC SPECULATION or ASSUMPTIONS

If HEAVENLY REWARD was DELAYED in 1914 one could beg to ask how are THEY SURE that the FIRST RESURRECTION they BELIEVE is NOW UNDER WAY according to their THEOLOGY is TRUE?

If TRUE why will JWS label those who BELIEVE that when good people die now they GO TO HEAVEN FALSE CHRISTIANS when they TOO believed that ANOINTED ONES according to their THEOLOGY go to HEAVEN upon DEATH?

Barristter07:
If yes, That means Paul and all who won't die- won't reign with Christ



Born again Christians who looked forward to reigning with Christ as spirit persons.



That's easy, the word parousia means presence. And we saw the signs of his presence already. Christ came invisibly.



He hope to be part of it, but since he died before Christ presence . he was among those who were raised when Christ presence starts .



Its presently taking place. We are at Christ presence .



Its about those who will reign with Christ. Its clear in the text.



That change can only come by death. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. Hence the need to wait for the living to also die. Verse 36 says what you sow cannot come to life UNLESS FIRST IT DIES.

Here you are saying what they sow, their physical body will come to life without dying. Not at all.

YEEBARIBA.........."Christ CAME INVISIBLY" that is WHY he is INVISIBLY PRESENT WITH US. I hope you catch the DRIFT. Well what do I know. SENSE is INVISIBLY missing.

there must be A THIRD INVISIBLE COMING as it SEEMS since JUDGEMENT is still AHEAD ..........YEEBARIBA

Barristter07:
Paul was answering a question posed at verse 35: how are the dead raised ? ... Verse 51 was a reply that some are raised instantly.

Now you're talking....so it was about how the DEAD RAISED which means when Apostle Paul replied "I shew you a MYSTERY; we shall not ALL SLEEP" he mean we shall not all dead since the point is on HOW THE DEAD IS RAISED..

In fact that fits into the context of that scripture as not to die and yet still reign with Christ is a mystery.

If everybody will die then it's not a mystery.

The we shall not die theory not only doesn't fit the context of the questions he was answering but a direct violation of Revelation 20:6,

People died doesn't fit into that scripture if not it wont be a mystery

After giving you instances where that same word refer to deep sleep , you can still spill the nonsense above. The sense of the word is clear.

The word in that verse means DEATH, how is it hard for you to grab it into your empty skull?

The question was " How are the dead raised ? " " How are the dead raised " .. Some are raised without them fallen alseep . as its instant

And some are not going to FALL ASLEEP mean death since Stephen being stoned to death fall asleep mean he died.

" Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. " - Rev 20:6

Reduce the volume of your lies.

I hope my limit is clear here, Rev 20:6 isn't about what you applied 1 Corin 15 or 1 Thess 4 to both are addressing different people.

The text says this will happen at Christ parousia (presence) or arrival. And we have the signs of his PRESENCE already. Which means he is present. It was discerned spiritually . evidenced by people will see him even those who Roman soldiers that hit him u know ?

But the verses you've been using didn't talk about SIGN but what will actually taking place...

Matt 24 Christ said all this ARE THE BEGINNING OF SORROW not the actual event of His second coming.

Both 1 Corin and 1 Thess described what will happen

1. The Lord Himself will descend from heaven....does this happen in 1914?

2. The trumpet shall sound....does this happen in 1914?

3. People will see Him and wail because of Him....does this happen in 1914?

If you chose to go by the popular coming is a future occurrence, Its still the same thing. Which means he hasn't even arrived when that event happened . cos verse 15 says those who are left till the coming ( when he is still in a distant future ), and we have the signs of the coming already

Jesus statement was after the event of His second coming the end shall come....

Again will only have the signs and not the actual event which means the statement in both 1 Corin 15 and 1 Thess 4 are not yet taking place.

Emusan, I understand you , even those roman soldiers that are dead who pierce him will see him too. Clap for yourself.

You don't, the event of second coming of Christ leads to the end of everything! Where the Antichrist will only be left to operate.

Christ has not come!

The point is: This is the hope many of those first century christians look forward to. Death is a must

But those verses weren't meant for the first century Christians alone but till the second coming of Christ because it was stated clearly by Paul "...that WE which are ALIVE and REMAIN unto the COMING of the Lord...."

it means the event is for those who be around when Christ will come and now Christ has not come!

" if we endure, we will also reign with him; "
- 2Tim 2:12


They must take a part in the ressurection to have this privilege of reigning with him- Revelation 20:6

That's when Christ Himself descends from heaven

achorladey:
Jozzy4: Everyone who have the HOPE of ruling with Christ must die. Rev 20:6.

Achorladey: In the THEOLOGY of JWS that would be the 144,000 in fact SOME of them are RESURRECTED to heaven and are CONVEYING the spiritual TRUTH JWS enjoy TODAY.

You will come back and tell us that CHRISTIANS only HAVE ONE HOPE but TWO DESTINATIONS.
Let me copy your brother YEEBARIBA.

" my point remains for all those in this one and only new covenant they remain as King and Priest irrespective of their DESTINATION( Heaven or Earth) . " - achorladey

u no well

achorladey:
YEEBARIBA.........."Christ CAME INVISIBLY" that is WHY he is INVISIBLY PRESENT WITH US. I hope you catch the DRIFT. Well what do I know. SENSE is INVISIBLY missing.

there must be A THIRD INVISIBLE COMING as it SEEMS since JUDGEMENT is still AHEAD ..........YEEBARIBA

Christ presence is just like the days of Noah ... Covered a period of time and end in judgement. Its right there at Matthew 24, but you can't read

Barristter07:
If yes, That means Paul and all who won't die- won't reign with Christ

Why?

Born again Christians who looked forward to reigning with Christ as spirit persons.

So that means all the old saints are not looking forward to reign with Christ....that's why they were left ASLEEP in the grave till date....

That's easy, the word parousia means presence. And we saw the signs of his presence already. Christ came invisibly.

The verse says "The Lord Himself will DESCEND from heaven..."

Also, Christ Himself said the sign of His coming are just THE BEGINNING OF SORROW not the actual EVENT when Christ come

And He said His second coming will be so visible not invisible lies you were told "For as lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"

"....they shall SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUD OF HEAVEN POWER AND GREAT GLORY"

So how dare you say Christ came invisibly?

This is the reason why Christ admonishes us not to fall for any scammer like JWs who says Jesus has come because the event will be so open that no man can deny it.

He hope to be part of it, but since he died before Christ presence. he was among those who were raised when Christ presence starts .

See double mouth....

Its presently taking place. We are at Christ presence .

So if died today Christ will resurrect me immediately....i thought you people says the number of people who will reign with Christ has completed, so they are actually more than 144,000

Its about those who will reign with Christ. Its clear in the text.

But after the second coming of Christ.

That change can only come by death. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. Hence the need to wait for the living to also die. Verse 36 says what you sow cannot come to life UNLESS FIRST IT DIES.

That's why apostle Paul says he shew us a mystery...of both died it's not a mystery since he had already addressed dead being raised/resurrected....not to die is to change/transform, the dead don't need to be change.

Here you are saying what they sow, their physical body will come to life without dying. Not at all.

Now you're using your number 6

Their physical body will be transformed/changed to be conform with the heavenly one like the body of Christ.

It's very clear from Paul, the dead will arise and the living one will be CHANGED/TRANSFORMED

Emusan:
Now you're talking....so it was about how the DEAD RAISED which means when Apostle Paul replied "I shew you a MYSTERY; we shall not ALL SLEEP" he mean we shall not all dead since the point is on HOW THE DEAD IS RAISED..

In fact that fits into the context of that scripture as not to die and yet still reign with Christ is a mystery.

If everybody will die then it's not a mystery.



People died doesn't fit into that scripture if not it wont be a mystery

If the question was how are the DEAD raised. It automatically means all of them would die. Its how some are raised that's a mystery

The word in that verse means DEATH, how is it hard for you to grab it into your empty skull?



And some are not going to FALL ASLEEP mean death since Stephen being stoned to death fall asleep mean he died.

You know Stephen was ressurected instantly ?

I ask again: If someone dies and was raised to life instantly, does he FELL ASLEEP ? Emphasis on " Sleeeeeep ? "

I hope my limit is clear here, Rev 20:6 isn't about what you applied 1 Corin 15 or 1 Thess 4 to both are addressing different people.

" You are really dubious , you know what's funny about your application here : Apart from first resurrection ... Others are ressurected to Earth . Act 24:15 calls it Resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous .

You are actually saying Those Christians won't reign with Christ for the 1000 years .

But the verses you've been using didn't talk about SIGN but what will actually taking place...

Think: sign of his PRESENCE. Does that ring a bell ?

Matt 24 Christ said all this ARE THE BEGINNING OF SORROW not the actual event of His second coming.

Both 1 Corin and 1 Thess described what will happen

1. The Lord Himself will descend from heaven....does this happen in 1914?

2. The trumpet shall sound....does this happen in 1914?

3. People will see Him and wail because of Him....does this happen in 1914?

And I said even the roman soldiers that pierce him will see him too and wail right ?

Jesus statement was after the event of His second coming the end shall come....

Like Matthew 24:14 right , Goodnews of his kingdom will be preached and the end will come. Isn't it clear he is present now ?

Again will only have the signs and not the actual event which means the statement in both 1 Corin 15 and 1 Thess 4 are not yet taking place.

Signs of what ? His PRESENCE

You don't, the event of second coming of Christ leads to the end of everything! Where the Antichrist will only be left to operate.

Christ has not come!

But those verses weren't meant for the first century Christians alone but till the second coming of Christ because it was stated clearly by Paul "...that WE which are ALIVE and REMAIN unto the COMING of the Lord...."

it means the event is for those who be around when Christ will come and now Christ has not come!



That's when Christ Himself descends from heaven

Remain unto his PRESENCE . that's the meaning of parousia. Sign of His presence means he is present.

For the bolded, the point is All those who will reign with Christ for the 1,000 years must taste ressurection. And that's what Paul and many others look forward to. Ruling as kings.

Jozzy4:
Christ presence is just like the days of Noah ... Covered a period of time and end in judgement. Its right there at Matthew 24, but you can't read

liar JWs
So did you tear Matt 24:26-27 part from your Bible

Because Christ said "Wherefore if the shall say unto you, BEHOLD, He is the desert, go not forth... for as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also THE COMING (parousia) of the Son of man be"

Does this indicate an invisible event or something everyone will see?

It's evident that your demonic organization understand that the event described by the second coming of Christ is going to be open one but since they already made the mistake of 1914 they have to come with invisible coming to continue to deceive yourself people.

Emusan:
Why?

Only those who experience the first ressurection reign and sit on thrones as Kings with Christ for the 1000 years . you recall Jesus promise to his disciple's that they will sit on thrones ?

You are eating yourself.

So that means all the old saints are not looking forward to reign with Christ....that's why they were left ASLEEP in the grave till date....

There is a ressurection for all at the last days , its a ressurection to earth . Act 24:15 . they ain't born again, only what is born of spirit becomes spirit.

The verse says "The Lord Himself will DESCEND from heaven..."

Also, Christ Himself said the sign of His coming are just THE BEGINNING OF SORROW not the actual EVENT when Christ come

You lied, what he said was the end hasn't come. Not any actual event

And He said His second coming will be so visible not invisible lies you were told "For as lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west so shall also the coming of the Son of man be"

"....they shall SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUD OF HEAVEN POWER AND GREAT GLORY"

So how dare you say Christ came invisibly?

This is the reason why Christ admonishes us not to fall for any scammer like JWs who says Jesus has come because the event will be so open that no man can deny it.

Hmmm so visible, yet people will took no note like Noah's day. Continue

See double mouth....



So if died today Christ will resurrect me immediately....i thought you people says the number of people who will reign with Christ has completed, so they are actually more than 144,000



But after the second coming of Christ.



That's why apostle Paul says he shew us a mystery...of both died it's not a mystery since he had already addressed dead being raised/resurrected....not to die is to change/transform, the dead don't need to be change.



Now you're using your number 6

Their physical body will be transformed/changed to be conform with the heavenly one like the body of Christ.

It's very clear from Paul, the dead will arise and the living one will be CHANGED/TRANSFORMED

You lied! ... He says ' We shall all, all , all , all, all of them be changed. Cos they will all taste death It rings a bell.


That's what happen when you tell lies.

achorladey:
Seen I believe your brother has seen it LIKEWISE.

It's what all MY BROTHERS believe globally!

Emusan:
liar JWs
So did you tear Matt 24:26-27 part from your Bible

Because Christ said "Wherefore if the shall say unto you, BEHOLD, He is the desert, go not forth... for as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also THE COMING (parousia) of the Son of man be"

Does this indicate an invisible event or something everyone will see?

It's evident that your demonic organization understand that the event described by the second coming of Christ is going to be open one but since they already made the mistake of 1914 they have to come with invisible coming to continue to deceive yourself people.

Everyone will see including those who pierce him . right ? so visible yet like the days of Noah people don't even notice at all.

Barristter07:
If the question was how are the DEAD raised. It automatically means all of them would die. Its how some are raised that's a mystery

Liar nothing is mysterious in dead being raised...what is a mystery is how people will not die and still reign with Christ.That why the will change!

You know Stephen was ressurected instantly ?

So how come When the event Apostle Paul was talking about will be during the Christ presence as you claimed...

Liar...

I ask again: If someone dies and was raised to life instantly, does he FELL ASLEEP ? Emphasis on " Sleeeeeep ? "

Sleep as used in that verse is DEATH....take that into your empty skull.

Person who died has fell asleep....that's the truth from the scripture...

" You are really dubious , you know what's funny about your application here : Apart from first resurrection ... Others are ressurected to Earth . Act 24:15 calls it Resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous .

You are actually saying Those Christians won't reign with Christ for the 1000 years

The event of second coming of Christ is what will make people reign with Him for 1000years during the reign if the Antichrist.

Or are you saying the 1000 years of Christ has started

Think: sign of his PRESENCE. Does that ring a bell ?

Different from the actual event of His coming! The signs are just the beginning of sorrow, true or false?

And I said even the roman soldiers that pierce him will see him too and wail right?

Olodo......so you think that verse is about the actual people who crucified Him.

Like Matthew 24:14 right , Goodnews of his kingdom will be preached and the end will come. Isn't it clear he is present now ?

Christ has not come....when He come, the event that describe that will be visible to everyone on earth.

Signs of what ? His PRESENCE

Signs of His coming meaning those are the things we should be expecting to see before He finally APPEAR not that Christ will be appear an those things will still be happening.

Remain unto his PRESENCE . that's the meaning of parousia. Sign of His presence means he is present.

Christ has not appeared so He can be present here

When Christ appears it will be like sun everyone will see Him...

For the bolded, the point is All those who will reign with Christ for the 1,000 years must taste ressurection. And that's what Paul and many others look forward to. Ruling as kings.

All those who will reign with Christ the event will happen after His second coming.

Emusan:
The event of second coming of Christ is what will make people reign with Him for 1000years during the reign of the Antichrist.

All these arguments you people just want to engage yourselves is not my problem, i want to learn from whatever you guys are saying.

But what i don't understand now is "how the AntiChrist will reign when Jesus Christ is also reigning the same time?"

I think what John saw was Jesus or angel who caught Satan, bind him and threw him into the abyss, verse 3 said "so that the Dragon (Satan) will not be able to mislead people anymore" Revelations 20:1-3

So who is the AntiChrist again that will rule the same time with Jesus o!

Barristter07:
Only those who experience the first ressurection reign and sit on thrones as Kings with Christ for the 1000 years . you recall Jesus promise to his disciple's that they will sit on thrones?
You are eating yourself.

And the event will happen at the second coming of Christ....which means Paul statement was misinterpreted by you...because second coming of Christ hasn't taken place based on the evidence from the scripture.

There is a ressurection for all at the last days , its a ressurection to earth . Act 24:15 . they ain't born again, only what is born of spirit becomes spirit.

Very soon you change BORN to RESURRECT....

You lied, what he said was the end hasn't come. Not any actual event

The actual event of the second coming were clearly stated in the scripture. The signs that prelude the second coming were also clearly stated, so what we are experiencing now are the signs of the prelude the event of the second coming. When the event of the second coming will happen it'll be seen by everyone on earth, that's what scripture says.

Hmmm so visible, yet people will took no note like Noah's day. Continue

See another misinterpretation, people of Noah were busy with things of the world not until Noah entered the ark and the door was shut.

1. The ark was visible.
2. When Noah was ordering the animals to enter was visible, people actually saw Noah doing everything...not invisible event!

You lied! ... He says ' We shall all, all , all , all, all of them be changed. Cos they will all taste death It rings a bell.

We shall all be change referring to the ALIVE ONE not including the dead, the dead are RAISED FIRST before the living one will be CHANGE/TRANSFORMED

Are you reading your Bible upside down

That's what happen when you tell lies.

As you keep telling lies...

Maximus69:
All these arguments you people just want to engage yourselves is not my problem, i want to learn from whatever you guys are saying.

I believe this include your brothers too, right?

But what i don't understand now is "how the AntiChrist will reign when Jesus Christ is also reigning the same time?"

You are using your JW understanding to ask this question and if we turn the question around, we can then ask you, is Christ not ruling now? according to you..

I think what John saw was Jesus or angel who caught Satan, bind him and threw him into the abyss, verse 3 said "so that the Dragon (Satan) will not be able to mislead people anymore" Revelations 20:1-3

So now that Christ is ruling according to you, why is Satan still misleading people?

So who is the AntiChrist again that will rule the same time with Jesus o!

The beast that will force people to take its mark and without the mark there won't be transactions, which is the purpose of this thread.

The reign is just the moment Christ took away His saints from the world and allowed the beast to run its one world/New world/new order government , not the interpretation your organization have

Jozzy4:
" my point remains for all those in this one and only new covenant they remain as King and Priest irrespective of their DESTINATION( Heaven or Earth) . " - achorladey

u no well

TWO HOPES all the way hahahahaha followed closely by TWO DESTINATION. That's what you have been trying to DEFEND all along. You brought it forward last last

Emusan:
liar JWs
So did you tear Matt 24:26-27 part from your Bible

Because Christ said "Wherefore if the shall say unto you, BEHOLD, He is the desert, go not forth... for as the lightning cometh out of the east and shineth even unto the west, so shall also THE COMING (parousia) of the Son of man be"

Does this indicate an invisible event or something everyone will see?

It's evident that your demonic organization understand that the event described by the second coming of Christ is going to be open one but since they already made the mistake of 1914 they have to come with invisible coming to continue to deceive yourself people.

Thanks for the RESPONSE

They have sidestepped the questions raised.........

Ask anyone of them...........

Who told them they will RECEIVE their HEAVENLY REWARD in 1914?
Who DELAYED the EXPECTATIONS of 1914?

All na SPEC SPEC SPEC SPECULATION or ASSUMPTIONS and the little magic is the INVISIBLE PRESENCE. Until that COLOURATION goes na SPECS and ASSUMPTIONS.

People that GOT expectations DELAYED and still repeated it in 2019 how can they be SURE they are RESURRECTED NOW?

and yet this from the material watchtower of 2007 cited earlier......God’s Word does not disclose a PRECISE DATE for the FIRST RESURRECTION,

Emusan:
And the event will happen at the second coming of Christ....which means Paul statement was misinterpreted by you...because second coming of Christ hasn't taken place based on the evidence from the scripture.

Presence vs coming. Big gap

Very soon you change BORN to RESURRECT....

The actual event of the second coming were clearly stated in the scripture. The signs that prelude the second coming were also clearly stated, so what we are experiencing now are the signs of the prelude the event of the second coming. When the event of the second coming will happen it'll be seen by everyone on earth, that's what scripture says.

The roman soldiers that Pierce him are very much still alive to witness that .

See another misinterpretation, people of Noah were busy with things of the world not until Noah entered the ark and the door was shut.

1. The ark was visible.
2. When Noah was ordering the animals to enter was visible, people actually saw Noah doing everything...not invisible event!

I thought you said people will wail and grief, now they will be busy with things of the world ?

The ark is physical, Christ is not . " the world will see me no more " he declares.

So much for visibility ...

We shall all be change referring to the ALIVE ONE not including the dead, the dead are RAISED FIRST before the living one will be CHANGE/TRANSFORMED

Are you reading your Bible upside down



As you keep telling lies...

"Behold, I tell to you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will ALL be changed-- "

If only you understand the change he was talking about. You won't have spill that nonsense above.

Tell me change to what ?

Reduce the volume of the lies.

Emusan:
Liar nothing is mysterious in dead being raised...

Dead raised instantly in the twinkling of an eye is a mystery. Even Jesus had to wait for three days in the grave to experience his change to spirit being.

Grab it now ?

what is a mystery is how people will not die and still reign with Christ.

Revelation 20:6 is still in your bible right ?

"Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years."

Who are those that will be priests of God and reign with Christ ? The one who shares in the first ressurection.


Again its impossible not to die and reign with Christ. First ressurection is a must.

That why the will change!

May I ask you what exactly are they changing to , and let's see if its not for all of them ?

So how come When the event Apostle Paul was talking about will be during the Christ presence as you claimed...

Liar...



Sleep as used in that verse is DEATH....take that into your empty skull.

Person who died has fell asleep....that's the truth from the scripture...

Why is it that people who experience the second death were not said to be asleep ? Cos Sleep means death according to you.

My sarcastic comment on Stephen was to make you realize the word sleep was used cos he had to wait for long before ressurection

The event of second coming of Christ is what will make people reign with Him for 1000years during the reign if the Antichrist.

Reign with Christ , a person must have a share in the first ressurection. Let it sink

Or are you saying the 1000 years of Christ has started



Different from the actual event of His coming! The signs are just the beginning of sorrow, true or false?



Olodo......so you think that verse is about the actual people who crucified Him.

Hahahahaha, Yeeba... Don't tell me that verse is symbolic o ?

Christ has not come....when He come, the event that describe that will be visible to everyone on earth.

Signs of His coming meaning those are the things we should be expecting to see before He finally APPEAR not that Christ will be appear an those things will still be happening.

Christ has not appeared so He can be present here

When Christ appears it will be like sun everyone will see Him...

But you said it doesn't mean the soldiers that Peirce him will see him ?

All those who will reign with Christ the event will happen after His second coming.

Coming vs presence creates a big gap. So I won't go there to avoid creating unnecessary discussion

But let this sink again... Reigning with Christ is for those who have a share in the ressurection.

achorladey:
TWO HOPES all the way hahahahaha followed closely by TWO DESTINATION. That's what you have been trying to DEFEND all along. You brought it forward last last

I believe your quote was clear enough.