blacKDalia:


Fishing vessel all the way from China? I hope they have permission to fish cos they themselves could be stealing.

they were permitted to fish in Cote D ivore
The pirates attacked them there and was heading to Lagos before NNS Nguru was alerted about the incident and did the rescue

shadowprimezero:


I have to strongly disagree on this. The Pantsir has proven to be an extremely poor piece of hardware. All the excuses you gave for the system have been debunked by the Syrian Air Defence. In videos released during the Idlib offensive by Turkey, we clearly saw multiple footage of active Pantsir systems even with their radars spinning. Footage of Israeli Daliah missiles also showed the same.

Even with electronic jamming by Turkey's Koral systems, I find it hard to see how an active Pantsir with live radar couldn't detect or engage slow and low flying Turkish Bayraktar drones.

Algeria simply got done in by Russia for an inferior air defence system. It unfortunate, but it happens to even the best.

the pantsir system was mostly designed for low flying drones and missles buh the system is slow...
it has proven to be incompetent how any one will be open their eyes to buy that shocks me..

Perception is never a proof of anything

Eg if somebody calls a man a failure because of perceived or real shortcoming(s). Does that certify that the man is a failure. Every event is circumstantial and a subset of events fortunate or unfortunate.

It is same for any event , be it weapons , be it any observable events.

The funny thing about truth is , it's relative . Absolute truth is the prerogative of the actor(s) only . Observers will always be lead into bias.

So perception that pantsir or any weapon system is a failure etc will be biased , without insight into the events involved in the same and the events themselves will be biased due to the dependence on observers and not the actors ( no military will ever give out the operational details )

To get a idea of what I am alluding to kind of, watch this 1950 Japanese film Rashomon ( if anybody wants to ) . Its a good film but importantly it is an eye opener .

Kabe2:


Is Cameroun buying an air defence system? I didn't know that, can you post a link?

Anyway the Pantsir has proven to be an inefficient, ineffective overhyped air defence system.

It has proven to be a total failure in Syria and Libya.

the way patriot ads was inefficient in Saudi Arabia. from the pix the ads was inactive and sitting in a hanger.

marvin906:
S400 I love your inputs on this thread...
buh for the pantsir system am sorry buh that system is sh.it utter rubbish coming from Russia am disappointed
the Patriot and pantsir are dragging the worst defense system I know

That's the truth. The Pantsir and Patriot are dragging the title for the worst air defence system. The Buk M2 and the Tors have proven to be very good.

Why I think the Patriot would fare better and will continue to post sales irrespective of performance is because the Americans control the media narrative and America is an English speaking country.

It's not the same for the Russians, they don't control the media narrative and they are not English speaking.

This was why I was concerned for the Russians with regards to the pummeling the Pantsir was receiving from Turkey. This only stopped when the Syrian deployed the Buk system.

Now Turkey has continued same thing in Libya. I read Drones will not be effective because they are slow moving and would easily be shot down, but what we see in Syria and Libya is they have been very effective against air defences.

At this point I would think users would dump the Pantsir for manpads.

youghs:
Abeg does anyone knows whether proforce is building a battle tank or planning on building?

We need to crawl before we can run.

Proforce does not have the expertise to build a tank.

They can build a tracked IFV, yes, but not a tank.

Toju200:
Haven't you heard of The Armed forces special forces (AFSF) under the Defense HQ
Those guys kitting are bad ass
Most of them are trained by Russia Most Elite special forces

Yeah, they are Tier 1, but I think is disbanded now.

Captured Pantsir Air defence system in Libya

lol [i][/i]

Toju200:
sir pls don't bring the topic back o
I was eaten alive when I told them

Kabe2:


We need to crawl before we can run.

Proforce does not have the expertise to build a tank.

They can build a tracked IFV, yes, but not a tank.

They included it in their brochure..I don't think they would put it there if they don't plan on building them

youghs:


They included it in their brochure..I don't think they would put it there if they don't plan on building them

That's an old brochure, go through the recently updated one Toju200 posted.

How do you think they would go about building it, in your opinion?

nemesis8u:
Perception is never a proof of anything

Eg if somebody calls a man a failure because of perceived or real shortcoming(s). Does that certify that the man is a failure. Every event is circumstantial and a subset of events fortunate or unfortunate.

It is same for any event , be it weapons , be it any observable events.

The funny thing about truth is , it's relative . Absolute truth is the prerogative of the actor(s) only . Observers will always be lead into bias.

So perception that pantsir or any weapon system is a failure etc will be biased , without insight into the events involved in the same and the events themselves will be biased due to the dependence on observers and not the actors ( no military will ever give out the operational details )

To get a idea of what I am alluding to kind of, watch this 1950 Japanese film Rashomon ( if anybody wants to ) . Its a good film but importantly it is an eye opener .

The question is whether the perception is objective. In this case clearly it is.

Kabe2:


That's the truth. The Pantsir and Patriot are dragging the title for the worst air defence system. The Buk M2 and the Tors have proven to be very good.

Why I think the Patriot would fare better and will continue to post sales irrespective of performance is because the Americans control the media narrative and America is an English speaking country.

It's not the same for the Russians, they don't control the media narrative and they are not English speaking.

This was why I was concerned for the Russians with regards to the pummeling the Pantsir was receiving from Turkey. This only stopped when the Syrian deployed the Buk system.

Now Turkey has continued same thing in Libya. I read Drones will not be effective because they are slow moving and would easily be shot down, but what we see in Syria and Libya is they have been very effective against air defences.

At this point I would think users would dump the Pantsir for manpads.

The us deployed Patriots in Iraq after the Iran missile strikes, then they asked Iraq to deploy their pantsir to protect the patriots
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVn0n62VAAAS3zN?format=jpg&name=900x900
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVn0meCU4AUlA1H?format=jpg&name=small

Kabe2:


That's an old brochure, go through the recently updated one Toju200 posted.

How do you think they would go about building it, in your opinion?

If I were Proforce I would concentrate first on a Tracked Version with a Cannon.
Then graduate by using a T72 as a base model start from there what would be difficult would be
ERA
Type of Cannon
FCS
Engine
These are things that will have to be markedly different.

Nigerian Air Force A-29 Super Tucano

Tinfoil:


The us deployed Patriots in Iraq after the Iran missile strikes, then they asked Iraq to deploy their pantsir to protect the patriots
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVn0n62VAAAS3zN?format=jpg&name=900x900
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVn0meCU4AUlA1H?format=jpg&name=small

both systems are horrible

Kabe2:


That's an old brochure, go through the recently updated one Toju200 posted.

How do you think they would go about building it, in your opinion?

I was actually thinking maybe they were building some tank plant or so..buh since u said it's an old brochure then maybe they were just whyning us

youghs:


I was actually thinking maybe they were building some tank plant or so..buh since u said it's an old brochure then maybe they were just whyning us

look at it...
They have the ambition to do such..
You'll see most time when they list their products you'll see Armoured tanks when they haven't been even done anything close to it...
When the first ARA MRAP rolled out that stated that they would be working on a prototype tank project..
That's like 5 years ago..
It was included in their old brochure.
But not in this current one
Infact most of their project they are to carry out it's not in this new brochure
Who's aware they signed an MOU with NAF to produce Light attack helicopters and drones last year December....
NAF didn't even make that public

Toju200:
look at it...
They have the ambition to do such..
You'll see most time when they list their products you'll see Armoured tanks when they haven't been even done anything close to it...
When the first ARA MRAP rolled out that stated that they would be working on a prototype tank project..
That's like 5 years ago..
It was included in their old brochure.
But not in this current one
Infact most of their project they are to carry out it's not in this new brochure
Who's aware they signed an MOU with NAF to produce Light attack helicopters and drones last year December....
NAF didn't even make that public

Bros, building a tank is not some fantasy or wish.

It requires human and capital investment which we currently do not possess in Nigeria.

We need to stop wishful thinking and live in reality.

Do you know the development cost of building a Tank?

Kabe2:


Bros, building a tank is not some fantasy of wish.

It requires human and capital investment which we currently do not possess in Nigeria.

We need to stop wishful thinking and leave in reality.

Do you know the development cost of building a Tank?

that is what I'm saying na...
They have the ambition to do it..
But it's never going to be easy.
Proforce said they were going to start a tank project that's like 5 years ago but nothing yet..
Hopefully in years to come we'll see something..

youghs:


I was actually thinking maybe they were building some tank plant or so..buh since u said it's an old brochure then maybe they were just whyning us

They don't have the skill, technical knowledge or money to develop a Tank.

For example Turkish Altay tank cost Turkey $1 billion in development cost. The Altay is essentially a copy of the K-2 from South-Korea. The Koreans provided the technical know how in building the Altay Tank.


It's not possible for Proforce to invest 1 billion dollars in developing a Tank, where will they get that kind of money from?

Toju200:
that is what I'm saying na...
They have the ambition to do it..
But it's never going to be easy.
Proforce said they were going to start a tank project that's like 5 years ago but nothing yet..
Hopefully in years to come we'll see something..

Unless they can sustain significant revenues, with sure hundreds of millions of dollars year-on-year revenue stream, I don't see that happening.

Say by some miracle they develop a Tank, invest 1 billion dollars, and a unit cost is $12 million.

VT-4 = 4 million dollars
T-90 = 3 million dollars
Abrams Tank = 5 million dollars

If you you are the Nigerian army, which one will you buy with your 2 billion dollars defence budget?

Kabe2:


They don't have the skill, technical knowledge or money to develop a Tank.

For example Turkish Altay tank cost Turkey $1 billion in development cost. The Altay is essentially a copy of the K-2 from South-Korea. The Koreans provided the technical know how in building the Altay Tank.

It's not possible for Proforce to invest 1 billion dollars in developing a Tank, where will they get that kind of money from?

All of these started from somewhere.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a step..
I'm sure you equally surprised and happy with the Level Nigeria defense Industry has reached you weren't expecting it where u

If proforce says it then so be it..
It make take Another 5 years from now before they even roll out the CAD design..

Toju200:
All of these started from somewhere.
A journey of a thousand miles begins with a step..
I'm sure you equally surprised and happy with the Level Nigeria defense Industry has reached you weren't expecting it where u

If proforce says it then so be it..
It make take Another 5 years from now before they even roll out the CAD design..

You don't quite understand basic economics. When you understand the economics of military production, then we can have this discussion.

Until then, we'll have to leave this at that.

Kabe2:


Unless they can sustain significant revenues, with sure hundreds of millions of dollars year-on-year revenue stream, I don't see that happening.

Say by some miracle they develop a Tank, invest 1 billion dollars, and a unit cost is $12 million.

VT-4 = 4 million dollars
T-90 = 3 million dollars
Abrams Tank = 5 million dollars

If you you are the Nigerian army, which one will you buy with your 2 billion dollars defence budget?

Bro I can assure u that we won't use up to that amount to develop a tank..
It's almost the same case as lemme say the MRAPs.
We produce the same quality even better MRAPs of some countries yet we get ours for a lower price
E.g Ezugwu MRAP

NAVY RESCUES 18 CREW MEMBERS ONBOARD CHINESE VESSEL, ARRESTS 10

The Nigerian Navy (NN) has rescued 18 crew members on board a Chinese vessel, MV HAILUFANG II, from pirates’ attack. The Commander Nigeria Navy Ship (NNS) BEECROFT, Commodore Ibrahim Shettima, disclosed this in a statement in Lagos. He said the crew members comprising Chinese, Ghanaians and Ivoirians were rescued on Thursday. The crew members were attacked by pirates off the coast of Cote d’Ivoire.

He said: “I am here to make a brief on the rescue efforts of the Nigerian Navy in a recent pirate attack within the Gulf of Guinea (GoG). “On May 15, a Chinese vessel, MV HAILUFANG II, was attacked by pirates off the coast of Cote d’Ivoire. “The pirates took control of the vessel and directed the vessel toward Nigerian waters. “The vessel had 18 crew members, comprising Chinese, Ghanaians and Ivoirians.”

Shettima said the Nigerian Navy was alerted on the attack, adding that it immediately dispatched the NNS NGURU to intercept the vessel. “On interception of the vessel at about 140nm south of Lagos Fairway Buoy, the pirates refused to comply with the orders of the Navy Ship. “Hence, the NN had to conduct an opposed boarding of the vessel. “All the ship’s crew were safely rescued, while the 10 pirates were arrested,” the navy officer added.

..

Toju200:
Bro I can assure u that we won't use up to that amount to develop a tank..
It's almost the same case as lemme say the MRAPs.
We produce the same quality even better MRAPs of some countries yet we get ours for a lower price
E.g Ezugwu MRAP

Oga wake up.
We need advanced industries to support a production of tanks. We lack even steel alloy production, precise enineering down to components on a micro level which we don't manufacture in country. MRAPS are built up on 4x4 or so while tanks are built from scratch. MRAPs built in Nigeria with lower labour costs are of course going to be cheaper.

Tanks are next level engineering with millions of dollars for a start. Most of the countries with indigenous tanks already have industries that made it possible plus they still import some components, Pakistan, India, Turkey et al.

BlackBaron:

Oga wake up.
We need advanced industries to support a production of tanks. We lack even steel alloy production, precise enineering down to components on a micro level which we don't manufacture in country. MRAPS are built up on 4x4 or so while tanks are built from scratch. MRAPs built in Nigeria with lower labour costs are of course going to be cheaper.

Tanks are next level engineering with millions of dollars for a start. Most of the countries with indigenous tanks already have industries that made it possible, Pakistan, India, Turkey et al.

the person that Brought this topic doesn't have heart I told u they'll eat me alive..


It's every one with their opinion
Let's just be expecting new Hardwares soon..
That's my take

TayserMahri:


The question is whether the perception is objective. In this case clearly it is.

An observer is part of the very system in which he is trying to observe an event . Hence the emotions and the forces which is part of the system is also part of him . Hence his perception and proportionately his objectivity can never be unbiased . He can at best try to be unbiased or objective which again leads to the corundum of who will qualifies his objectivity / perception .


Hence analyst in intel orgs are trained to ' try their best to be unbiased ' they r not trained to be ' unbiased ' because it is not possible.

Toju200:
the person that Brought this topic doesn't have heart I told u they'll eat me alive..


It's every one with their opinion
Let's just be expecting new Hardwares soon..
That's my take

I used to think we could years ago until I read wide and discovered the complexity involved. We are also losing our engineers going abroad while the good ones here are stuck in offices or jobs below their capabilities.

We can start by selecting a chassis, T72/T90 or build from scratch. But we need to poach engineers. China poaches lots of Soviet and Ukrainian engineers for their military hardwares. Can outsource parts to other countries, but most sensitive bits would need to be done in house such as FCS, composite etc.

X