thariodamaniac:
facebook was basic at the start... Don't deceive urself.... Facebook is more than just a website now and so is google the amount of background work on the systems are over basic web development works... Api's for different functions...facebook at one time built its own language or framework(i have forgotten which) facebook uses machine learning on its site.... Which web development framework does that.... Dont even call python or vue.js because no one that is looking for a web developer will be checking for data science skills.... Do due diligence before you ask questions out of emotions

Python is not a framework for your info. Python is a full fledged language. Vue.js is just a frontend framework. Web dev is a concept in it own right. AI in web is nothing new infact many hundred of website have AI in their website. You seem to not have a lot of info about the updates on web world. 3D engine like webGL and more are now on web. Web started around 1991 so it is still young and it pace and speed is something you should give some accolades.

Did I hear you say no one will be looking for web dev and need data science skill. What kind of fuckery is that? Just because web jobs in Nigeria are in the business of building landing pages now gives you the opportunity to conclude that data science can’t work with web dev. Your minds is just limited to where you are living. I no blame you.

Whether Facebook is basic at start or not, now to code even the website alone will cost you millions and the amounts of code is very large. So me nor know wetin you dey talk o

stanliwise:
Python is not a framework for your info. Python is a full fledged language. Vue.js is just a frontend framework. Web dev is a concept in it own right. AI in web is nothing new infact many hundred of website have AI in their website. You seem to not have a lot of info about the updates on web world. 3D engine like webGL and more are now on web. Web started around 1991 so it is still young and it pace and speed is something you should give some accolades.

Did I hear you say no one will be looking for web dev and need data science skill. What kind of fuckery is that? Just because web jobs in Nigeria are in the business of building landing pages now gives you the opportunity to conclude that data science can’t work with web dev. Your minds is just limited to where you are living. I no blame you..... If i should ask you if you want to build a website will you be looking for someone with deep learning skills and the ability to use power bi etc or someone with flask, django abilities etc

Whether Facebook is basic at start or not, now to code even the website alone will cost you millions and the amounts of code is very large. So me nor know wetin you dey talk o

i can see there is no winning an arguement against you... Django and flask are python libraries used for web dev you should have known.... There are also javascript backend frameworks which i should have mentioned instead

stanliwise:

Your analogy about cats is wrong. Programming is the crux of everything computing.

How can you say this? How can the crux of computing science hover around programming, na wa o. Please I need you to go understand who a computing scientist is. You don’t really know I guess. Such a wrong guess

Bro, I suggest you take my message about the over generalised comparison between programming and cyber security and stop cherry picking. I didn't say Computer Science or Computing Science. I said computing. Two very different expressions. Computing as a word here is not a field of study. It is just an English word that simply means the use or operation of computers and yes, programming is at the crux of it. I had my BSc in Computer Science, my first MSc in Information Technology and presently doing my second MSc in Computer Science and I've been practicing for more than a decade both in and outside Nigeria, if you really think I don't know what Computer Science is, it's fine. I just thought I should correct an impression on someone supposedly younger in the profession.

Enjoy.

etrange:


Bro, I suggest you take my message about the over generalised comparison between programming and cyber security and stop cherry picking. I didn't say Computer Science or Computing Science. I said computing. Two very different expressions. Computing as a word here is not a field of study. It is just an English word that simply means the use or operation of computers and yes, programming is at the crux of it. I had my BSc in Computer Science, my first MSc in Information Technology and presently doing my second MSc in Computer Science and I've been practicing for more than a decade both in and outside Nigeria, if you really think I don't know what Computer Science is, it's fine. I just thought I should correct an impression on someone supposedly younger in the profession.

Enjoy.

Compute means to use computer. Haba why na?
Compute in computer science means to calculate, it doesn’t have to be with any machine. Machine gives us speed and accuracy and reduce fatigue. Since you are a computing scientist. You know our job is to use a computer(I mean computer like e.g Turing machine) to solve problems of data. This literally doesn’t mean we have to use the physical, it means we should invent the method it can be used in a computer. For example Numerical analysis is a field of computing where computing scientist tries to solve our analytic mathematics using iterative or mechanical formulas so that machine could solve it just like us. E.g calculus

stanliwise:

Compute means to use computer. Haba why na?
Compute in computer science means to calculate, it doesn’t have to be with any machine. Machine gives us speed and accuracy and reduce fatigue. Since you are a computing scientist. You know our job is to use a computer(I mean computer like e.g Turing machine) to solve problems of data. This literally doesn’t mean we have to use the physical, it means we should invent the method it can be used in a computer. For example Numerical analysis is a field of computing where computing scientist tries to solve our analytic mathematics using iterative or mechanical formulas so that machine could solve it just like us. E.g calculus

Are we really doing this? Why are you deviating from the message? Computing could mean a lot things depending on the context and I have told you the plain context of which I employed the word (see below). I was not talking about numerical computation. That was not even the gist of my message. The idea was to call your attention to the fact that the small cat/big cat analogy between cyber security and programming is not quite right. If you don't agree with me, I'd be willing to shed more light, if you do, say so and we would move on.

This kind of miscellaneous word picking you're doing is for undergraduates. It's not my thing.

stanliwise:

Compute means to use computer. Haba why na?
Compute in computer science means to calculate, it doesn’t have to be with any machine. Machine gives us speed and accuracy and reduce fatigue. Since you are a computing scientist. You know our job is to use a computer(I mean computer like e.g Turing machine) to solve problems of data. This literally doesn’t mean we have to use the physical, it means we should invent the method it can be used in a computer. For example Numerical analysis is a field of computing where computing scientist tries to solve our analytic mathematics using iterative or mechanical formulas so that machine could solve it just like us. E.g calculus

Naw o! Is this the discussion ?

Oga, you're not even addressing the guy's message. Computing has many definitions and he told the one he used in his post. Get back to point or just move on! Haba! This is I why I don't like commenting here. Nobody wants to learn from the other. Everything to you guys is a competition and that's very childish. You're just trying to make it look as if he doesn't know what he's saying instead of addressing his core point.

There's nothing wrong with saying "Yeah, dude. That's a good perspective. I only made that analogy because.....". Instead you went looking for words to attack just to reduce his credibility.

Basically, I think this type of arguments are not necessarily balanced because self taught learners naturally do so for the purpose of solving a specific problem. Whereas, a CS curriculum is geared towards given an 'overview' of a large field.

Now, out of the school walls, what companies or technology demands is usually Specialist Knowledge that'll help solve problems in given niches. While a fresh CS grad has many 'basic' knowledge of everything, they can't make any meaningful impact unless they have 'indepth' knowledge about something. Besides, they soon find out that the majority of the techniques and theories taught in school finds little application in the real world. Schools are slow in updating curriculum under any field even in the western world. Besides, no school curriculum can keep up with the fast-paced world of technology and computing because it's driven by specialist tech giants. Some of the problems these guys are facing cannot be solved by 19st century solutions. Technology is in the 22nd century.

Now, I know the big companies in the west probably have substantial amount of CS grads in their tech teams. But they don't usually make it a 'must have'. They still administer the same tests and evaluation to all applicants. Hence, they don't necessarily believe only a CS grad is capable of 'problem solving'

Whether you're a self taught programmer or a CS schooled software developer, you're still going to work with tools already in existence in the industry. Nobody needs you to reinvent the wheels. There's much still to be done by using the tools programmers invent.

You're a problem solver if you create a landing page for a client. You're also a problem solver if you create a new operating system. There's no law that says the ability to create a compiler can only be acquired going through the entire CS curriculum or vice versa.

The tech community will recognize and appreciate your efforts if you built a new framework or piece of software. Perhaps, maybe
you develop a new sorting algorithm that makes the one Google is currently using look like child's play? Good for you. Nobody gives a damn whether you have a certificate or not.

I think people are just scared that we finally have a field where 'certificate' can truly feel like what it essentially is, a piece of paper. The knowledge is important of course. But the certification means nothing really because it's a result based World. Hence, since there's no monopoly in knowledge, any Interested party can readily acquire it without necessarily going to school.

WoundedLamb:


Naw o! Is this the discussion ?

Oga, you're not even addressing the guy's message. Computing has many definitions and he told the one he used in his post. Get back to point or just move on! Haba! This is I why I don't like commenting here. Nobody wants to learn from the other. Everything to you guys is a competition and that's very childish. You're just trying to make it look as if he doesn't know what he's saying instead of addressing his core point.

There's nothing wrong with saying "Yeah, dude. That's a good perspective. I only made that analogy because.....". Instead you went looking for words to attack just to reduce his credibility.

No I didn’t do that. I gave a context when I made my definition. Compute in CSC means to calculate and when doing this it is majorly based on data manipulation unlike maths where it is just mere theoretical numbers. Maybe you felt so but I have no intentions of what you speak.

etrange:


Are we really doing this? Why are you deviating from the message? Computing could mean a lot things depending on the context and I have told you the plain context of which I employed the word (see below). I was not talking about numerical computation. That was not even the gist of my message. The idea was to call your attention to the fact that the small cat/big cat analogy between cyber security and programming is not quite right. If you don't agree with me, I'd be willing to shed more light, if you do, say so and we would move on.

This kind of miscellaneous word picking you're doing is for undergraduates. It's not my thing.

Oh sorry if you feel I am cherry picking. I have no intentions of that. Either ways I still go with my analogy. A computing scientist job isn’t was never to program. Instead his job is how to formulate ideas and techniques for easier and cheaper manipulation of data. This programmer and computing scientist comparison is annoying I swear.

A computing Scientist could be a programmer but that is not the core of his work.

stanliwise:
Oh sorry if you feel I am cherry picking. I have no intentions of that. Either ways I still go with my analogy. A computing scientist job isn’t was never to program. Instead his job is how to formulate ideas and techniques for easier and cheaper manipulation of data. This programmer and computing scientist comparison is annoying I swear.

Where did I mention or compared computing science with anything? Nobody ever mentioned anything like "computing scientist" or remotely compared that to "programming" till you brought it up yourself and made it the base of your submissions. It has been clarified over and over again what computing meant in my context but you keep going around that for reasons best known to you.

My point to you is that comparing cybersecurity and "programming" and calling one a big cat is vague. Programming is a very general word and it cuts across different areas including cyber security itself. It doesn't make any logical sense to use the generic word "programming" in this scenario. Some cyber security guys also write programs for things like penetration testing, vulnerability assessment, etc. so to a point, they are programming too. Database developers write programs too (routines). Animation experts write programs. It is like comparing Data Science or Machine Learning with "programming" knowing fully well that in one way or the other, these fields have programming as a sub component. If you want to make such comparison, you have to be specific about the type of programming you mean. That's the only time it will make sense.

Good luck with your career, bro.

stanliwise:
No I didn’t do that. I gave a context when I made my definition. Compute in CSC means to calculate and when doing this it is majorly based on data manipulation unlike maths where it is just mere theoretical numbers. Maybe you felt so but I have no intentions of what you speak.

You'll not learn from people if you continue like this .

He told you exactly what meaning he used in his message and yet you left that and went ahead to tell him what computing is in CS. You really think you know that more than he does? You keep saying Computing Science, where did he ever mention computing science? Were you not the one that brought in computing as a science? He said computing and still went on to show you the plain meaning but you kept making fuse about something that was never relevant to his correction. Even in your last message to him above, you're still being adamant and bringing up a comparison he never made. You type like a student. All these exuberances are immature and typical of people with very limited knowledge.

Based on what exactly is your analogy right? That cyber security is like lion or whatever to programming? Seriously, that was a hasty generalization. What type of programming were you referring to specifically? The same programming that made the tools cyber security guys use? A good deal of the OS itself was written by programmers. So what exactly is the bases for your analogy? It's obvious you were just thinking of mobile and web programming when you said that (this, I believe, was exactly what they guy was trying to point out) and the least I expected you to do was to say that was what you meant but you're still being stubborn.

etrange:


Where did I mention or compared computing science with anything? Nobody ever mentioned anything like "computing scientist" or remotely compared that to "programming" till you brought it up yourself and made it the base of your submissions. It has been clarified over and over again what computing meant in my context but you keep going around that for reasons best known to you.

My point to you is that comparing cybersecurity and "programming" and calling one a big cat is vague. Programming is a very general word and it cuts across different areas including cyber security itself. It doesn't make any logical sense to use the generic word "programming" in this scenario. Some cyber security guys also write programs for things like penetration testing, vulnerability assessment, etc. so to a point, they are programming too. Database developers write programs too (routines). Animation experts write programs. It is like comparing Data Science or Machine Learning with "programming" knowing fully well that in one way or the other, these fields have programming as a sub component. If you want to make such comparison, you have to be specific about the type of programming you mean. That's the only time it will make sense.

Good luck with your career, bro.

You have patience! But I suggest you stop wasting your time. That guy's aim is just to appear knowledgeable and not have a reasonable discussion.

WoundedLamb:


You'll not learn from people if you continue like this .

He told you exactly what meaning he used in his message and yet you left that and went ahead to tell him what computing is in CS. You really think you know that more than he does? You keep saying Computing Science, where did he ever mention computing science? Were you not the one that brought in computing as a science? He said computing and still went on to show you the plain meaning but you kept making fuse about something that was never relevant to his correction. Even in your last message to him above, you're still being adamant and bringing up a comparison he never made. You type like a student. All these exuberances are immature and typical of people with very limited knowledge.

Based on what exactly is your analogy right? That cyber security is like lion or whatever to programming? Seriously, that was a hasty generalization. What type of programming were you referring to specifically? The same programming that made the tools cyber security guys use? A good deal of the OS itself was written by programmers. So what exactly is the bases for your analogy? It's obvious you were just thinking of mobile and web programming when you said that (this, I believe, was exactly what they guy was trying to point out) and the least I expected you to do was to say that was what you meant but you're still being stubborn.

Now you’re taking things too far and your stance of me defining this and that just means you don’t understand what started the discussion. You also Said I was thinking of web and mobile which will be weird if I ever did so. You said I speak like a student also. I could have ignored this message but I am trying to tell you that this things you just wrote up there is nothing but your opinion. Also maybe you should realize I am comparing a computing scientist to a programmer on the ground of computing. What started the topic was some person where trying to stare up an argument that programmers are better of than a computing scientist which I was trying to clarify to them that a computing scientist is not anything like a programmer. He may program but it is not the core of his work.

Maybe you should read what I wrote from another angle it might appeal better.

etrange:


Where did I mention or compared computing science with anything? Nobody ever mentioned anything like "computing scientist" or remotely compared that to "programming" till you brought it up yourself and made it the base of your submissions. It has been clarified over and over again what computing meant in my context but you keep going around that for reasons best known to you.

My point to you is that comparing cybersecurity and "programming" and calling one a big cat is vague. Programming is a very general word and it cuts across different areas including cyber security itself. It doesn't make any logical sense to use the generic word "programming" in this scenario. Some cyber security guys also write programs for things like penetration testing, vulnerability assessment, etc. so to a point, they are programming too. Database developers write programs too (routines). Animation experts write programs. It is like comparing Data Science or Machine Learning with "programming" knowing fully well that in one way or the other, these fields have programming as a sub component. If you want to make such comparison, you have to be specific about the type of programming you mean. That's the only time it will make sense.

Good luck with your career, bro.

O now I get your point, by mentioning programming you are trying to point out it could possibly be anyone including senior devs and coders right. I agree with you. When I mentioned in my original post I didn’t paint this picture. I was painting a picture of when people are comparing computing scientist to a programmer which for me didn’t make sense.

I didn’t put it in the scenario where a programmer in his own right as a programmer been lesser than a computing scientist. Everyone na boss for im lane. An engineer is a pro at his job, so as an architect.

But what I have been saying all along is when people compare programmers to computing scientist on the field of computing.

I guess we missed the point of our discussion along the way. The claim that I said you compare computing scientist to a programmer is not true and if I ever did wasn’t intentional. I was sticking to the thread topic.

Y'all should keep arguing while indians who stopped at technical college are making great things. You can get a job at Facebook & Google without degree but with what you have in your head and what your hands can do. If you like carry first-class in CSC, if you don't have the practical experience getting a job will be very difficult. Being a CSC graduates does not mean you know it all. You will surely major in one aspect of CSC at the end of the day. So why the argument. With all the CSC professors in OAU their library website still runs on wordpress. Lautech official website is running on JOOMLA (This ones didn't even work on their .htaccess file to redirect properly to their secured routes). With all you CSC graduates, undergraduates and professors. You have not made a programming language. To those people saying facebook made a programming language, i wonder where you get these info from. Facebook made frameworks from existing programming languages. If you say google, mozilla, FINE... These guys are creators. Now back to our NIGERIAN CSC family. Dont compare yourself to a self taught in the area in which that person major's on.... If a self taught majors in hacking and cyber security please stay far from such person because he will blow you off. Self teaching is way more difficult. Don't think self taught is all about watching youtube videos. People take badass professional courses online in the comfort of their home. Don't ever think rushing to one stupid FORTRAN, COBOL, PASCAL, (one mumu JAVA) class automatically makes you a guru. You must self teach yourself to be actually knowledgeable. Be it reverse, system engineering, programming etc. So stop getting pissed off. And mind you, don't think because you paid school fees in one Nigerian University to study CSC makes you a god. Many self taught spend much more than you do in $$$ to get practical knowledge. If you say CSC is beyond website and mobile apps fine. Please build your own OS and your own programming language and stop allowing your schools to keep using Content Management Systems. So CSC guys get to work and keep yourselves busy. Stop ranting on Nairaland.

thariodamaniac:
I came across a thread that talked about self taught developers claiming to know it all instead of getting a degree.... And obviously those with CS degrees came out to defend themselves claiming that coding is just a tiny spec of computing...
From what i know comparing programmers to CS degree holders is like comparing poly to uni.... The two are not the same.... But back to the subject matter.... I can gladly say... Quote me anywhere..."CS degree holders don't know anything... And developers are delusional".
I will explain... I moved from a self taught software developer to cybersecurity... And i will trully say its not the same... There are somethings a CS degree will give you that you can't find being self taught but also when it comes to practical work computer scientist are a waste of time.... They can tell you what to do... How it should be done but doing it??... And personally i believe its doing it that makes all the difference not the knowledge.... Such knowledge is wasted without proper application... Each have their strengths but can't be compared directly to each other... Now computer programming is a whole course on its own..

Engineer vs Technicians. Go to any oilfield. The engineers aren't concerned with the actual doing. They have run hundreds to of calculations and simulations to determine the viability of a well. When it comes to the actual drilling and surface production na technicians dey do all that.

Same scenario with CS v Programmers

Self taught only acquire his/her knowledge om whatever he chooses to learn
A computer scientist have basic, medium, and advance theory knowledge about computer application programs..

But its very possible to see a self taught to be better in coding than a computer scientist because his more focus on practical

But back in nigeria you see class of 70 computer science students or graduate. Only 5 people can code... The rest can only score destination on paper... Which means they understand the theory concepts of programs but they can't praticalize it all because Nigeria institution computer labs and Tutors ain't doing so well...

Just buy books Nd read about other people projects that's all they can offer...

I'm a computer scientist and I will beg any undergraduate students studying CS at the moment especially if you studying In nigeria

Dont depend you will acquire real money making skills from Nigeria Institution without going out on your own to source for mentor

Nigerian institution will give you 200℅ theory, 50℅ practical..... 95℅class won't even understand the 50℅ practical they gave you

Pls at your free time or IT placement... Try and find a mentor

I remember when I was still schooling, they gave us months to go out and learn digital skills practical aspects.... 85℅ went out to make money or work regularly
15℅ enroll with programming school

After we resume back to school
Students find it difficult to develop a program for defence...

I remember I chop money from my mate that time because I know what I was doing

Later on I was invited by the dean
They ask me what I can do and what I hav learned
I show them and they we're schoked! Even the so call lecturers in my dept...

I begin to take about 3 or more lectures on web programming
Can you imagine a student teaching Lectural..
Not to talk of students


After graduation still non can develop anything
They just have the certificate "CS".

Pls the beautifulness of CS is having a specified Digital Skills after graduation... You can start learning now... pick one that intrest you...


And if you a graduate already... Its not too late

Goodluck

hardebayho:
Referring to the topic op started. Let's look at the facts. We can talk all day about theory but the only truth will be in the facts, what we can all see.

If you say computer science graduates can't do nothing (which is what is in your post header), by nothing you mean what exactly? Cause as far as I know, most of the software products you put your hands on is made by these same people you're saying can't do nothing. If you put Nigeria into perspective, then your points might be valid. Buh in other parts of the world, they are CS graduates that know EXACTLY what they're doing. Let's take Google and Apple for example. Most of the employees working on their software products are computer science graduates. So really, your points about CS graduates not being able to do sh!t is only valid here in Nigeria. Goan look at people working on the Android platform. If you check the source code, you'll find data structures and algorithms that if you dinor go to a computer science school, it will look like rubbish to you ni. Those guys are really doing stuff, so don't let us use our local knowledge to diminish the credibility of this field.

About those self-taught developers. I for one am self-taught, and I'm not delusional in any way. Shebi as my school no fit teach me programming, I no go learn am on my own?

neither am i delusional.... But when i see some developer think they have made it because of some website or app i laugh... If only they knew they were just on the surface