Prayer is one of the most common religious activities. Especially in religious climes such as Nigeria, almost everything is linked to prayer. People pray before they eat, sleep, do business. Some even pray in order to scam others and commit fraud. It is indeed not rare to see ashawos or even robbers praying before or after the act, committing their activities, legitimate or not, into the hands of whatever God they believe in.

People are convinced the answer to most challenges in life is prayer. We even have children songs that say Prayer is the key that opens all doors.

The veracity of such claims though is subject to debate. Indeed Scientific research and academic publications have failed to demonstrate any significant correlation between prayer and A positive change of circumstances. Various clinical studies failed to indicate that prayer did help medical patients in any noticeable and significant way. Challenges such as the $ 1 million Randi Challenge are also a reminder of this contradictory fact:

More so , there seems to be no evidence of a positive correlation between prayer / religion and national prosperity. Actually some research tend to even indicate the contrary: the more religious a country is, the less it tends to develop and prosper, other things held equal (natural resources, climate, etc)

It thus begs the question: are prayers of any use ? Does God expect mankind to pray ? Is prayer and Faith compatible ? What kind of prayer If any actually makes any impact?

These questions and related topics shall be the focus of this thread. Everyone is invited but stupid comments and scoffers shall be ignored.

this is the kind of thread i find instresting. i've been asking myself these questions for quite some time now.

Afromentalist:

Are prayers of any use?
Does God expect mankind to pray ?
Is prayer and Faith compatible ?
What kind of prayer If any actually makes any impact?

ATHEISTS have been asking thought provoking questions that most religionsists have failed to address. So let's reason together!

Are prayers of any use?

Yes! it gives courage to the one praying, it's easier to confront a disorganized group of soldiers than an army that has prayed fervently before their God after offering sacrifices!

Does God expect mankind to pray?

Yes! All spirits expects their worshipers to approach them before taking action. There are many spirits serving as Gods, you must address one before he makes the move!

Is prayer and faith compatible?

Yes! Faith is what you visualize that others can't see, so a worshiper of a spirit beseech his God to help in attracting agile partners in carrying out the huge task of making his dream or vision a reality!

What kind of prayer makes impact

When the one praying is able to convince others of the benefit which is for all concerned, they will all WORK heartily towards achieving it!

Maximus69:

ATHEISTS have been asking thought provoking questions that most religionsists have failed to address. So let's reason together!


Yes! it gives courage to the one praying, it's easier to confront a disorganized group of soldiers than an army that has prayed fervently before their God after offering sacrifices!

Yes! All spirits expects their worshipers to approach them before taking action. There are many spirits serving as Gods, you must address one before he makes the move!

Yes! Faith is what you visualize that others can't see, so a worshiper of a spirit beseech his God to help in attracting agile partners in carrying out the huge task of making his dream or vision a reality!

When the one praying is able to convince others of the benefit which is for all concerned, they will all WORK heartily towards achieving it!

Prayer the Christian and Muslim way is useless. In fact it is even counterproductive, as the noise, useless mantras and physical exhibitions make the mind and spirit out of sync with the higher energies (frequencies) of the universe.

Meditation, contemplation and visualisation are the keys to reaching higher levels of consciousness to achieve whatever you desire from the universe.

You are nothing without prayer

Afromentalist:
Prayer is one of the most common religious activities. Especially in religious climes such as Nigeria, almost everything is linked to prayer. People pray before they eat, sleep, do business. Some even pray in order to scam others and commit fraud. It is indeed not rare to see ashawos or even robbers praying before or after the act, committing their activities, legitimate or not, into the hands of whatever God they believe in.

People are convinced the answer to most challenges in life is prayer. We even have children songs that say Prayer is the key that opens all doors.

The veracity of such claims though is subject to debate. Indeed Scientific research and academic publications have failed to demonstrate any significant correlation between prayer and A positive change of circumstances. Various clinical studies failed to indicate that prayer did help medical patients in any noticeable and significant way. Challenges such as the $ 1 million Randi Challenge are also a reminder of this contradictory fact:

More so , there seems to be no evidence of a positive correlation between prayer / religion and national prosperity. Actually some research tend to even indicate the contrary: the more religious a country is, the less it tends to develop and prosper, other things held equal (natural resources, climate, etc)

It thus begs the question: are prayers of any use ? Does God expect mankind to pray ? Is prayer and Faith compatible ? What kind of prayer If any actually makes any impact?

These questions and related topics shall be the focus of this thread. Everyone is invited but stupid comments and scoffers shall be ignored.

Albert Einstein, Michal Faraday,Ford, name them did not record their achievements by praying..
There's an account in the bible, that says "faith without work is dead". inversely it means WORK is the action word, work without faith in God works.
This is the simple laws of nature or the universe.
God does not need us to pray to him/worship him in exchange for a blessing, we have been blessed right from birth, believe in yourself, develop, acquire the necessary skills and get to work, that's what we need as humans.

There's this book am currently reading, Why Nations Fail, the origins of power, prosperity and poverty, by Daron Acemoglu and co.
The book explains why some nations are richer than others, factors like inclusive institutions, work altitude, etc., are key reasons why and not religion.

milkywaves:


Albert Einstein, Michal Faraday,Ford, name them did not record their achievements by praying..
There's an account in the bible, that says "faith without work is dead". inversely it means WORK is the action word, work without faith in God works.
This is the simple laws of nature or the universe.
God does not need us to pray to him/worship him in exchange for a blessing, we have been blessed right from birth, believe in yourself, develop, acquire the necessary skills and get to work, that's what we need as humans.

There's this book am currently reading, Why Nations Fail, the origins of power, prosperity and poverty, by Daron Acemoglu and co.
The book explains why some nations are richer than others, factors like inclusive institutions, work altitude, etc., are key reasons why and not religion.

Your submission is profound.

Just downloaded the book; looks like it will be an educative read. Thanks.

milkywaves:


Albert Einstein, Michal Faraday,Ford, name them did not record their achievements by praying..
There's an account in the bible, that says "faith without work is dead". inversely it means WORK is the action word, work without faith in God works.
This is the simple laws of nature or the universe.
God does not need us to pray to him/worship him in exchange for a blessing, we have been blessed right from birth, believe in yourself, develop, acquire the necessary skills and get to work, that's what we need as humans.

There's this book am currently reading, Why Nations Fail, the origins of power, prosperity and poverty, by Daron Acemoglu and co.
The book explains why some nations are richer than others, factors like inclusive institutions, work altitude, etc., are key reasons why and not religion.

Is it not written
"Ask and ye shall Receive!
Seek and ye shall find!
Knock and it shall be opened up to thee?

Do you see that the beginning of each phrase in this statement forms the work "Ask"?

All good things come from the Lord!

Back in med school, I prayed about every single test and exams I took from 100L to 600L. We do all sorts of tests and exams( vivas, OSCEs, steeple gaze, steeple chase, bedside, theory exams, etc). So yeah, I prayed aplenty.

I did good until final year surgery bedside exam when I had the misfortune of drawing a very bad case and patient and a bad examiner to boot ( the kind that even the best students pray against).l flunked the exam. And in med school, failing a bedside exam is automatic resit or repeat depending on how many even if you passed the subject as a whole. I had 56/100 with fail clinical to resit surgery in my report card.

I was real mad with myself. This is so because, the worst time to have a resit in med school is final year. It means you would graduate 3 months after your classmates and you miss the grand induction of new graduands into the med profession.

It was the first exam I didn't pray about as an undergraduate. I had same examiner that failed me in the first bedside exam. Having impressed him with my bedside skills and knowledge of surgery, he asked if it was an illness that made me fail the first time (many students usually fall sick " mysteriously" during exams). I told him I was ill prepared the first time after realizing he didn't remember me from our first encounter.

I had a 65, three points higher than guy who got the prize for best student in surgery! ( by the way, that guy knows more surgery than me, period. I just had an "alien" moment in that particular exam)

I guess what I've been trying to say with my pitiful tale is, prayer or no prayer what will be will be. All we do as human is prepare and hope for the best. As for me, I stopped praying about things I plan to do since then. I've had ups and downs but overall I'm ok with the positive results I have had.

Prayers are mere wishes. They're simply useless and don't work.

What works is strategic planning, strategic efforts, and luck.

Dtruthspeaker:
Is it not written
"Ask and ye shall Receive!
Seek and ye shall find!
Knock and it shall be opened up to thee?

Do you see that the beginning of each phrase in this statement forms the work "Ask"?All good things come from the Lord!

That there only works for those who are born of the Spirit of God as Jesus Christ Himself was. It does not apply to those who wear a 'Christian' badge and make noise without obeying the terms of the agreement that is Jesus Christ.

You have to sign that agreement in faith (collection of works) substantiating your claim to accept the contract. And we know that faith without work(s) (obedience) is dead - meaningless as far as the agreement that is Jesus Christ is concerned.

gensteejay:
Prayers are mere wishes. They're simply useless and don't work.
What works is strategic planning, strategic efforts, and luck.

Depends on the kind of prayer you are referring to.

Kobojunkie:
Depends on the kind of prayer you are referring to.

You mean praying in the name of a fictitious character called Jesus Christ, who was nailed to the cross like a common criminal?

Lols. What a strange world!

gensteejay:
You mean praying in the name of a fictitious character called Jesus, who was nailed to the cross like a common criminal?
Lols. What a strange world!

Well, he may be fictitious to you but he ain't to me. Yep! Such a strange world indeed where we each live in our own reality, right?

wirinet:

Prayer the Christian and Muslim way is useless. In fact it is even counterproductive, as the noise, useless mantras and physical exhibitions are make the mind and spirit out of sync with the higher energies (frequencies) of the universe.

Meditation, contemplation and visualisation are the keys to reaching higher levels of consciousness to achieve whatever you desire from the universe.

You may be surprised that those three in bolded are the real teachings of Jesus of Nazareth!

For your information, there is just one group that's practicing what Jesus taught back then today. So out of the 42,000 religious groups claiming Christians worldwide only one belongs to Jesus, meditation, contemplation, accountability and visualization coupled with fervent prayers is their motto!
The only problem atheists have with them is how Jesus' true followers stay away from RACISM and POLITICS!

Hello sir, I would really want to connect with you I sent an email.

Afromentalist:
Prayer is one of the most common religious activities. Especially in religious climes such as Nigeria, almost everything is linked to prayer. People pray before they eat, sleep, do business. Some even pray in order to scam others and commit fraud. It is indeed not rare to see ashawos or even robbers praying before or after the act, committing their activities, legitimate or not, into the hands of whatever God they believe in.

People are convinced the answer to most challenges in life is prayer. We even have children songs that say Prayer is the key that opens all doors.

The veracity of such claims though is subject to debate. Indeed Scientific research and academic publications have failed to demonstrate any significant correlation between prayer and A positive change of circumstances. Various clinical studies failed to indicate that prayer did help medical patients in any noticeable and significant way. Challenges such as the $ 1 million Randi Challenge are also a reminder of this contradictory fact:

More so , there seems to be no evidence of a positive correlation between prayer / religion and national prosperity. Actually some research tend to even indicate the contrary: the more religious a country is, the less it tends to develop and prosper, other things held equal (natural resources, climate, etc)

It thus begs the question: are prayers of any use ? Does God expect mankind to pray ? Is prayer and Faith compatible ? What kind of prayer If any actually makes any impact?

These questions and related topics shall be the focus of this thread. Everyone is invited but stupid comments and scoffers shall be ignored.

milkywaves:
There's this book am currently reading, Why Nations Fail, the origins of power, prosperity and poverty, by Daron Acemoglu and co.

I know the book, I read it many years ago, and it is a great read.

daharry:
this is the kind of thread i find instresting.
i've been asking myself these questions for quite some time now.

Thanks. Stay tuned, I will start my development right away.

Maximus69:
Yes! All spirits expects their worshipers to approach them before taking action. There are many spirits serving as Gods, you must address one before he makes the move!

If a spirit expects one to worship him before he does anything for the person, one may want to ask oneself if there is no foul play somewhere. Anyway, I shall adress that in a subsequent post.

Sheunma:
...

Your story is very educative. Thanks for sharing it. Stay tuned for my own analysis.

Didi965:
Hello sir, I would really want to connect with you I sent an email.

okay, I will check my mail later.

After this first round of interventions, we may want to begin to dig deeper.

The caveat here is to put aside the psychological - placebo like effects of prayers. No one can deny the fact that praying can give one some sort of moral comfort in the idea that some external force greater than us is at work for our greater good. Problem is, this approach could prove a double edged sword that can potentially backfire very dangerously. Indeed someone with the idea that some God is in control of his fate, may tend to submit and yield to circumstances easily thinking it is divine fate and will. The belief in an external force that governs our destiny also implies a smaller eagerness to fight for one's own fate and destiny.

Hence, if people find comfort and psychological help in prayer, they should ba all means continue. This however does not imply prayer is objectively useful, rather it simply means some people are too weak and need mental crutches. In the word of Apostle Paul: "When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me"

The potiential psychological benefits (and dangers) of prayer are thus not taken into consideration here because it pertains to childhood while our subject matter supposes a discussion of adulthood and solid food.

Now, let's handle the first main question: Are prayer and Faith compatible?

Few people see the contradiction between Faith and prayer. Maybe if we rephrase our question, it would appear more evident: Is it possible (and is it logical) to believe in an omniscient, powerful and benevolent Divinity without doubts, while at the same time, plead with him to do something on our behalf?

Think again. If a good, powerful and knowing God is who he claims he is, he would never wait for you, and I dare say want you, to ask for anything before he gives it to you. And If you have to ask anything to a God before he does it for you, then either he is not an all knowing powerful and benevolent God, or you do not truly believe he is. Or both.

This thread does not deal with the existence, nature and attributes of God, so it is not needed to discuss that for now. Suffice for us to say that, it is not possible to ASK and BELIEVE at the time.

If you ASK, then YOU DO NOT BELIEVE. When you BELIEVE, YOU DO NOT ASK.

Faith and (asking) prayer are therefore mutually exclusive.

Further, the real intentions of any God, angel or being that requires you to do prayers, sacrifices and offerings before he can do something for you are questionable. If you know what is good for someone and can do it, but wait that the person acknowledges you or even begs you before you do it, then your real motivation is not doing good, rather it is self worship.

It is high people realise that their many prayers and sacrifices offered to various God are actually food, energy off which these egregores grow. The God you are eagerly praying to, may actually be a product of your enslaved mind, feeding off your energy and slowly becoming your slavemaste. Think Again!

Afromentalist:
Faith and (asking) prayer are therefore mutually exclusive.

I believe that depends on how you choose to define the word 'Faith'? For instance, the bible definition is not the same as the generally accepted definition of the word today.

Afromentalist:

If a spirit expects one to worship him before he does anything for the person, one may want to ask oneself if there is no foul play somewhere. Anyway, I shall adress that in a subsequent post.

Before you can understand what spirit want from man you have to know their origin and some other necessary aspect about them. Human way of thinking totally differs from their own. All our thoughts, feelings, love, hatred, jealousy, irritation, ambition and the rest are molded by our short lifespan of less than 100 years. So our ways of reasoning can't go along with that of higher intelligent beings who aren't subjected to pains, suffering, sickness or death, which are the key factors determining our reasonings!

Afromentalist:

I know the book, I read it many years ago, and it is a great read.


Thanks. Stay tuned, I will start my development right away.


If a spirit expects one to worship him before he does anything for the person, one may want to ask oneself if there is no foul play somewhere. Anyway, I shall adress that in a subsequent post.

Your story is very educative. Thanks for sharing it. Stay tuned for my own analysis.


okay, I will check my mail later.

Good morning, it was an anonymous message that went through, I really don’t how know I could send a message across on here, but I need a guide on my awakening and I have had a lot of experiences I haven’t paid attention to, but I am ready to be more aware and conscious. Thank you so much if there’s a better way we could contact each other I will be so grateful

If you want to have faith you should stop praying.

There is actually no point in praying. If God knows what is good for you, he has already provided it. If you have to remind hip of what is good for you, then he did not know it in the first place. And if he does not know what is good for you, how can you trust him to deliver anything good for you?

Therefore even by classical religious standards, faith and prayer are not compatible. The more serene and spiritual a person gets, the less he prays. Instead of prayer he will rely on himself and a firm assurance that what he envisions and dreams about is ineluctable and bound to happen.

This is the essence of all spirituality and self growth. Developing the ability to bend circumstances according to your will, or as Aleister Crowley would put it “ the science and art of causing change to occur in conformity with will”.

The caveat here is, that prayer is here understood as asking prayers. When you are child it is expected of you to ask things around to your parents and others. As you grow you stop asking and find means of providing what you need yourself.

When we misunderstand the concept of prayers then we begin to get it wrong. Everything about prayer is captured in Philippians 4:6 . It says becarful for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with Thanksgiving let your request be made known unto God. We learn to thank God, even for the things we have received and yet to receive.

777isaac:
When we misunderstand the concept of prayers then we begin to get it wrong. Everything about prayer is captured in Philippians 4:6 . It says becarful for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with Thanksgiving let your request be made known unto God. We learn to thank God, even for the things we have received and yet to receive.

I am not sure I clearly understand your point.

The bolded is what I am talking about. Why do you make your request known to an all knowing and benevolent God, if not because you doubt that he has already foreseen and provided for all your needs? What is the implication of making any request to God?

I do hope you are familiar with the concept of "free will" as stated in Deut. 30:19.
You should note:
God will never violate our "free will"

Secondly, either you know it or not everybody prays. The difference is the deity you have chosen to pray to, which takes us back to " free will"

Thirdly, God is all knowing, and for the fact that we make our requests known to Him is just to renew our trust in His faithfulness, if not we will be worried. We draw strength from God by making Him know through Thanksgiving.

@Afromentalist

I have been following the thread and I'm afraid that dismissing or not wanting to dwell on the salutary effects which prayer has on the human mind , especially when you have not provided any explanation why those subjective experiences occur, would make those who see prayer as a safe and valid means to petition a God reject most, if not all, the arguments you have made.

Subjective experiences gotten from praying is what gives those who pray insane confidence that they can take a bullet or walk on water ..I know this as former believer

If a believer is ill and prays for healing and immediately starts to feel good due to the placebo like effect of this exercise, he believes or is sure that God has answered him and that this same God would respond at any other time or circumstances.


True believers are not interested in the truth. They're only interested in just about anything whether it makes sense or not which seems to confirm what they have been made to accept as the truth

So I think those placebo like effects which comes from prayer should not be downplayed because they form the major foundation for faith. If not i think some persons, a lot of them, might struggle to accept that faith and prayer are not mutually inclusive as you already can see from some of the responses to the op
This what I think..

@triplechoice

Indeed the placebo like effects of prayer can’t be ignored and I did mention them in one of my posts. What I did say is that I want to overlook these because almost anything can have a placebo effect depending on the patient beliefs and state of mind. Hence in examining the real value of prayers, placebo has to be excluded.

In the same vein, in analyzing the value of a particular drug the testing procedure Attempts to exclude the placebo effects not because they do not exists but because they don’t depend on the medicine itself rather the state of mind of the patient.

Prayers may have effects though, and this is what I will attempt to demonstrate later.

Afromentalist:
@triplechoice

Indeed the placebo like effects of prayer can’t be ignored and I did mention them in one of my posts. What I did say is that I want to overlook these because almost anything can have a placebo effect depending on the patient beliefs and state of mind. Hence in examining the real value of prayers, placebo has to be excluded.

In the same vein, in analyzing the value of a particular drug the testing procedure Attempts to exclude the placebo effects not because they do not exists but because they don’t depend on the medicine itself rather the state of mind of the patient.

Prayers may have effects though, and this is what I will attempt to demonstrate later.

please continue

Kobojunkie:
I believe that depends on how you choose to define the word 'Faith'? For instance, the bible definition is not the same as the generally accepted definition of the word today.

What is the bible definition?

Afromentalist:

It thus begs the question: are prayers of any use ? Does God expect mankind to pray ? Is prayer and Faith compatible ? What kind of prayer If any actually makes any impact?.

Please set aside all that you know and Truthfully answer these questions.

The answers to these questions are found in this things that you do or not do.

1) When your father gave you food, clothes, shelter, toys, rocked you to sleep etc did you thank him?

2) when you wanted anything did your father not teach you how to make a request?

3) Did your parents not teach you how to be grateful for gifts? If they did, how did you show your gratitude.

4) in all of these things that you have received from your parents, is it not on the basis of a close relationship with you? Did they and will they do the same for your next door neighbour?

Let me stop here to see how you shall respond.