₦airaland Forum

WinsomeX:
I did not see this article until this morning when someone suggested Google. This is a fellow Pentecostal calling Chris Oyakhilome's religion a cult. A fine summary of all I have been saying since I'm this thread. What do we have to say about this?

CC: Joagbaje, Gombs, kenny4life, sammied, seedgreen and vooks.

WinsomeX:
It was a simple question that could have been answered with a simple answer.

But thanks to sammied for the suggestion to go to Google. the truth is that so far, I have not contacted that resource since this thread started and this was a nice reminder. Consider what a former editor on Charisma magazine wrote on CE. Note, I'm not Pentecostal and do not subscribe to all Charisma teaching but this is very insightful:

www.charismamag.com/blogs/fire-in-my-bones/15366-false-prophets-foreign-charlatans-and-global-deception

Courtesy of Google.

From now I will contact Google a lot more. BTW, Google has no record of Oyakhilome PHD.

vooks:
Respond methodically to points raised by Winsomex.

Thank you

Kenny4lyfe:
@Sammied
I should bring this to your notice (you must've been familiar with it since you've been following WinsomeX's post for quite a while but I'll share it anyway);
WinsomeX, vooks and co. derives pleasure in going round in circles. They like to twist and turn issues to suit their own opinion (not that their opinion matter though), they ignore truths even if it stares right into their faces (they even circumvent it most times), which is exactly what they're doing with your submission thus far.
Just thought I should give you a heads up bro.
God bless you!

vooks:
sammied,
Nobody is labeling everyone. What may have escaped you is that a particular sect's doctrines and practice are controlled by one man or centrally by a very small group. If the doctrines are cultic; unbiblical, overly controlling, that is not to mean that every member of the congregation is cultic.

I don't know how else one can approach false doctrines and manipulation

vooks:
False doctrines are not new, we were warned of this by Paul right in Acts before he penned any epistle.
You may opt to ignore them and pray about them or to just speak out about them. What's the whole idea of being charged to prove all things, test spirits?

One of the reasons there is so much rot in Christianity is because believers have abdicated their duty to contend for their faith. Truth is sacrificed at the altar of 'unity'. If fellow believers can't point out falsehoods, who should? Angels or monkeys?

Now, nobody disputes that believers remain believers despite subscribing false doctrines, what Winsomex is saying is holding on to these is dangerous and may have eternal consequences. Let's stretch your logic; a believer, a pastor who sleeps around with the entire choir and other pastors' wives is still a believer, right? A believer, pedophile is still a believer, right? A believer, a closet homosexual is still a believer, right? And a believing serial killer is no psychopath, just that he trips every so often right?

you are stalling this by engaging in semantics.

Next is Winsomex' attitude and approach. While it is good to observe him, regaling us with your psychological analysis of his NL persona helps little in this thread. Stick to the subject and refute him where you can

vooks:
When Winsomex says MAN, he means a PERSONALITY called Oyakhilome.
It is rather obvious that the gospel from Genesis to Revelation is all about restoring MAN bck to God. Man in this sense means HUMANITY.

So please drop equivocation

vooks:
How do you edify believers who subscribe to falsehoods?
You should be worried about the veracity of Winsomex claims not preoccupying yourself with psychoanalysis

WinsomeX:
I said the same thing. You have only reiterated my position that CEC and others like it make MAN and not GOD the central focus of their gospel. Thank you for the confirmation.

WinsomeX:
As we continue the study of Christ Embassy being a cult, my hope is that the readers understand that my reference to the CEC being a cult is not in that extreme manner of a group of people who make covenants in blood and hold meetings at night. This is the reason I refused to respond to an earlier comment where an individual resorted to the dictionary to define what a cult should be. I am not doing dictionary definition of cultism here. I am looking at cults as defined by Walter Martins in his book The Kingdom of the Cults and with reference to how the bible sees them.

Apart from the Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and Christian Science, Dr Martins also did a study of many other cult groups, including the New Age movement, etc. I was very surprised to find Word of Faith listed as a cult in the Appendix of the book although my surprise was only a confirmation of something I have long suspected.

Joagbaje has commented on this thread with a seeming witty statement that Christianity could as well be a cult if CEC is one. Like a responder said to him, such a comment cannot detract from the matter on ground.

Dr Walter Martin was a sound evangelical Christian. His theological persuasion were derived from orthodox Protestant theologies, deeply rooted in the Reformed Tradition. He was not a Pentecostal and he did not list Pentecostalism as a cult in his book. In fact he did not include WoF as a cult in the original version of his book. But his followers deemed it fit to include WoF as cultic after his death and that's why it is listed in the appendix of the book.

Quite naturally the thought of CEC being a cult sounds distasteful and I'm certain even some that are my friends in this forum may think that my assertion is a little on the extreme but shall we consider the evidences before us without bias and shall we not take heed lest this false doctrine creep into our homes and into the lives of our children? Shall we permit a modern day Nigerian Jimmy Jones tragedy before we speak out?

Another person has shared on this thread how people he knows suddenly become "new creatures" the moment they imbibe CEC doctrines into their lives. With thinking of "I'm a god", "I can fly", "I can do all things", "the world is mine", "I do everything for the money", etc, replete in their thoughts and words.

I would continue the discuss as I try to retrieve salient quotes from Dr Martins on the cultist mental state, so that you can understand the CEC member next door even better.

Cheers.

- WX.

Promhize:
The only decent thing about the infinix hot, Is the 4000mah battery, which am sure won't have a better battery life than devices with 2600-3000mah from good brands. Battery life just like cameras isn't entirely about how much mAh, just as camera quality isn't about megapixel.

Peace out.

proffnico:
gionee m2 survives that.. Even more than 6 hours#

slikcipher:
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adoptop70:
go to recovery mode and do factory reset and wipe cache

adoptop70:
go to recovery mode and do factory reset and wipe cache

slikcipher:
Use kingroot and begin process again.!!!!

nollyj:
The same to you. Enjoy ur weekend and do have a wonderful xmas

WinsomeX:
You appear clearly as one who has been wrongly taught the word of God and your type is the reason for this thread. Instead of jumping the gun and spewing what your pastors, most of them WoF inspired, taught you, you could take the time to listen to what the thread is saying. That you can bungle a basic doctrine on God's sovereignty is a proof of that.



Have you heard of exegesis before? Do you understand topical teaching? Do you recognize the title of the thread? If you do, you will understand the reason for the emphasis. I do not see anything like stretching truth here. And if that's what it is may these truth be stretched even further than this.



Please note your words: "focusing and saying what God says..." Where in the bible is anyone taught to focus and then say, except in New Age books. Let's consider your scriptures:



Joel 3:10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.

... and let the poor say I'm rich, abi?

Where in that scripture did you see "focus and say", and I will add "so as to get".

Joel 3:10 is part of a prophetic statement by God to Israel. It has nothing to do with focusing, saying and getting. Using that scripture to justify name it and claim it practices is part if the error of removing scriptures out of context to make it say what we want.

That leads me to a major error of WoF: making scripture say what your greedy and depraved mind want and not submitting to the voice of scriptures. This is done mainly by quoting scriptures out of context.



Classical Word of Faith! If you have not been taught this scripture as a WoFist, you have not learnt anything.

There is a reason God showed all his wonders to Pharaoh, which these Israelites witnessed. There is a reason why that generation saw the red sea part and Pharaoh men consumed. There is a reason God appeared to that generation in bellows of cloud. It was to tell them he is God and this should impart faith in the heart of anyone except the extremely unbelieving. Abraham slept with Hagar when he didn't know God much in Gen 16. When he had known God, God appeared to him and commanded him to walk before him and be perfect in Gen 17. By Gen 22, when God asked him to kill his child, he understood that God could raise from the dead. He moved out in faith and today he is called the father of faith.

Faith is not name it and claim it. Faith is knowing God. This is all that grieved God with that generation that perished in the wilderness. Caleb and Joshua however knew God, and it was shown in the confession and that is what saved them. There is nowhere in that story these men were said to focus and then say some pre programmed statement to win Gods approval.

Name it and claim it is a cultic doctrine that has no basis in scriptures.




Same thing applies to David here too. There was no focusing and saying anything. David statements came from a God he knew who had delivered him in the past. That's all.



Sorry to bust your bubble but this is not bible doctrine, this is Christian Science.

The bible is the Christian weapon of war. We don't read the bible so as to say things from so that we can get things in life. We read the bible, again, simply to know God. The knowledge of God you know will show not in your words alone but more importantly in your actions, your character.



There is truth in what you have said to the extent that God's intention is not for division in the body of Christ. I however understand why sometimes certain designations are assumed for groups like cessarionists, Reformed, WOF, etc. It is to bring out their biblical emphasis and in other cases to show their errors to the world. There are thibgs to learn from each group but I am afraid there are more to unlearn in WoF than to learn there.

There is one verse you left out of the name and claim it scriptures:

Romans 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

How about that?!

WinsomeX:
I didn't ask for a debate. I asked for scriptures. Provide scriptures that justify the Christian Science and WoF aspects of the statements or remain content with the fact that you peddle occulting doctrines or practices.

WinsomeX:
And where in that quote of mine did I say anything about people praying and repenting? What exactly is your point? You cannot comprehend a fact that God is sovereign enough to say a thing that even prayer cannot change? And I gave you a case of David and you do as if you did not see that?

At the mouth of two or more witnesses a matter is confirmed: Judas and Esau repented but their case was sealed by God. Do these examples help you?

WinsomeX:
Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Hezekiah lived not because he prayed but because the One who gave a word at first, spoke again. There are many people who pray and still end up not changing God's mind on an issue. We must be careful to allow God remain as God and attribute the sovereignty that's due to him totally and not detract from it even through very noble exercises as prayers. This is what I meant by prayer not averting Gods pronouncement.

Candour:
And God also sent the same Isaiah back within a matter of hours to deliver a counter message because Hezekiah wept and begged for mercy.

It would have been a different thing if Hezekiah ignored the prophecy and still didn't die according to Isaiah's declaration.

The God who cannot be challenged gave a word and decided to change it for mercy sake. I think it's God we should take issues up with, not Isaiah. He didn't deliver an inaccurate message.

God alone knows what he wanted to achieve by giving Hezekiah a message that made the king fall on his knees in pleas and prayer then rescind the decision.

WinsomeX:
Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Hezekiah lived not because he prayed but because the One who gave a word at first, spoke again. There are many people who pray and still end up not changing God's mind on an issue. We must be careful to allow God remain as God and attribute the sovereignty that's due to him totally and not detract from it even through very noble exercises as prayers. This is what I meant by prayer not averting Gods pronouncement.

WinsomeX:
I want to state again that to avoid unhealthy back and forth, my response to you here will be once.



The cessationists position is that the office of an apostle and a prophet has ceased. I agree with this position too. However, my little deviation from the cessationists will make me a continutionist in their eye but I am not bothered by that. I remain faithful to what I see as truths of scriptures. While I believe the office of prophets and apostles have ceased, I believe that God can bring a prophetic word through anyone in the church. This does not make the person a prophet in the strict sense of the word. It is this sort of prophecy that must be judged by the three criteria enumerated in the first post of the summary you are responding to. This is the reason I earlier gave an example of the British preacher and his prophecy, even though he was not charismatic. From my observation in the church, most of those who claim to be prophets today do not stand the test of doctrinal orthodoxy, accuracy and character. It would have been better if they share the Cessationists position that prophets have ceased today, while at the same subjecting all prophecy to test.



So now you will agree to distinctions in the bible only on matter of prophecy but discard the distinction on tithes. Let me help you understand why the distinction on tithe remain valid: because tithes are simply rituals of the law. What Moses enumerated in Deuteronomy 18 to test for a true prophet are biblical principles that are unchanging. The same way Paul referred to another Mosaic principle of not muzzling the ox that thresh the wheat. The point is simple: a man is provided for from his place of work. So also the principle of testing the accuracy and doctrinal orthodoxy of prophets. It is a principle that runs through scripture. That is what Paul meant by not despising prophecy but rather prove it in 1 Thess 5.

And as vooks has pointed out, the spirit of the prophet being subject to a prophet is NOT justification for erroneous prophecy. It is simply saying that Charismaticism should not be synonymous with chaos, as John MacArthur had shown in an earlier book in the 90s.



Now you are sounding like a true Charismatic. Can you provide one scripture that says a false prophet is one not called by God? I notice you refer, in a latter post, to Matthew 7 to justify this; Jesus saying I knew you not, implying I didn't call you. Let me provide you information:

Every child of God in the NT has a call to ministry. For example, we are called to do the work of an evangelist. We all must be able to teach, having studied the word and rightly divided it. And if need be, we all must be able to Pastor a flock of God's people. It might please God to lead a few to a dedicated ministry of this but all of us are called.

The concept of a special call to ministry outside being called saints is one that is found in the OT but popularized by WoF ministers in their bid to lend legitimacy to what, most of the time, turns out to be means to defraud God's people.

When Jesus spoke of "knowing", he was speaking of an intimacy that leads to spiritual fruits in Christians and not a call to ministry.




Again as vooks has shown you, Jonah case was still an accurate prophecy. Whatever personal issues Jonah had with it notwistanding.

Now, if God says a building will be bombed, that building will be bombed and no prayer will avert it. What could avert a prophecy is if the prophecy came with condition as that of Jonah did. It would be good that you begin to see God as God and not that effeminate weakling that WoF people have turned him into. God is still God and his words will not return to him void but accomplish what he has sent it to do. God is not our errand boy and cannot be kicked around even by the most "powerful" of prayers.

I believe that many have issues with those three sound and scriptural criteria to determine true and false prophets because when adhered to it will ultimately render most of the so called prophets and their prophecies false today.





Like I said in the beginning, there are no prophets today. Period. Those who call themselves prophets and come under careful scrutiny always come short in some way and end up being false prophets. The safe line for me to anyone who says he has a prophecy from God to state it thus: I believe the Lord has impressed so and so upon my heart and I trust God that it will come to pass. If it does, he has given a true prophecy but it doesn't make him a prophet. If it fails, he has spoken from his imagination and no one can call him a false prophet because he has not stated authoritatively that he is speaking a thus says God. He has spoken only by faith. A true prophet will speak a word from God or he is God's mouth piece. There are no such people on earth today. The last of them died when the apostle of the Lamb died and after the canon of scriptures were complete.

The Scriptures, the bible, is all the Sure Word of Prophecy we need. Any other today is not a sure word of prophecy and the one speaking it is not a prophet.

I shall be presenting the summary of the last presentation by Phil Johnson next.

BabaGnoni:
how did this people get to head this churches? through the gift?
^^^
The only head of the church, I know of, is Jesus Christ

What is the gift?
^^^
1 Corinthians 12:28 and Ephesian 4:11 tells us what the gifts are
(i.e. And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers).
Notice that pastors was lumped with teachers, and together both even came last in the listing

how do we know those who genuinely have the gift?
Because they have the desire and 'understand' scriptures?
^^^
We know those who genuinely have the gift by their fruits
anything else than displaying good fruits or exhibiting the fruits of the spirit, then they are hirelings and thieves

I think this is one of the reasons there's confusion everywhere
^^^
God is not the author of the confusion

Concerning the cooking gift....
my brother many people like me don't have the gift of cooking...but we have mastered the art of cooking through necessity....
there are schools everywhere you can be trained as a professional chef....
to cook excellent food..better than those who may have the gift...
^^^
This was laughable.
Well there is something similar in the "church" industry too, where one goes to "master the art of fleecing through necessity & out of greed"
such places are everywhere, you can be trained as a professional
to dish out excellent demons sermons... and do "better" than those who may have the gift of shepherd(ing)
It is called a cemetery seminary

No, it isn't applicable to the above or the church, it is applicable to the "church" though

BabaGnoni:
^^^
First, we all know what the distinction between church and "church" is, so no point to dwell at all on them.

So we skip the distinction(s) between church and "church" and going directly on to "Pastor" (i.e. shdemidemi's bone of contention)

What is known as pastor(s) today, is what Jesus called hirelings or hired hand(s) in John 10:12-13

Jesus mentioned that the hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep and even before then called them thieves, saying "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full." (i.e. John 10:10)

- Jesus, 2000 years ago, saw today coming. He saw the reality, the emergence of thief(eves) come only to steal and kill and destroy

Before the upgrade to thieves status, Isaiah way back from the OT, has this to say (i.e. Isaiah 56:11)

"They are dogs with mighty appetites; they never have enough.
They are shepherds who lack understanding;
they all turn to their own way, they seek their own gain."
- Isaiah 56:11 NIV

"Pastor". Hmm, pastor, pastorate or pastoring, this is an interesting one as there is ONLY ONE Pastor (i.e. Shepherd) which is our Lord Jesus.

"Pastor", pastorate or pastoring has to do with pastures or pastoral.
Remember the scripture, "Know that the LORD is God. It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, the sheep of his pasture." (i.e. Psalms 100:3)
- we are the sheep of the pasture of the LORD

Shepherding, in this instance is a gift, it has no office or title.

It is a privilege to shepherd on behalf of God but one doesnt take up the title or status (i.e. pastor)
That office or title (i.e. Pastor) is reserved for our Lord Jesus Christ. There is ONLY ONE PASTOR
Just as cooking doesnt make one a chef or because one cooks to call oneself a chef such is shepherd.

Conveniently, there is only ONE mention of PASTOR in the NT, and where it was mentioned, it was used exclusively for our Lord Jesus Christ
- you would find the word, pastors (i.e. pastor with a "s'' in Ephesians 4:11) once too in NT, which was translated from shepherd
but as said, the only Pastor used in NT was used in reference to our Lord Jesus Christ

It is a common parlance with our mums jokingly calling the kitchen's their "office" though they cook in the "office", they dont joke or make the mistake of seriously calling themselves the chef or assume the title

So is with shepherding a gathering, it is a gift, it is not an office nor a pastorate title to assume
(i.e. one uses the shepherd gift, as in to guide, to feed, to protect etcetera the Lord's sheep and pasture but not take on an office or title of pastor. There is only one Pastor)

Just as cooking is a gift, mind you not all are good at cooking, if at all, any can cook, likewise are shepherds and teachers gifts

Why are gifts been misconstrued as offices or titles?
Those of us who have the gift of cooking, we cook like chefs but dont seriously call ourselves chefs
Functioning as a shepherd is not a licence or permission to be called a pastor