₦airaland Forum

plaetton:
Thank you for reminding me that Africans are not short of heroes.

I guess I was trying to tell you that Abraham (most likely a mythical figure) should not even feature as any kind of hero to anyone , except for people of Hebrew or semitic descent.

. Much isn't known or documented of such heroes and they weren't propagated as worth full ideals to young Africans who wer searching for religious iconic figures like Abraham . For now , a lot will still stick to this mythical figure as you prefer to refer him . It isn't my bad is it ...? Maybe you could take it up as a cause to research and enlighten us more about our African religious heroes

plaetton:
From a religious point of view then, The Buddha, Confucious, Assurbanipal, Pythogoras , Apollonius of Tyana are much better moral references for Africans than a mythical Abraham.

. Permit to laugh a bit...hahaha ! They are all options as long as it enable one be better . I never shoved this one down anyone please. But don't Africans have their own religion ? Ur options don't have anything in common with Africans . You could come up with better African options who had overwhelming religious influence ! Let's say Usman Dan fodio, ethe emperor of Ethiopia Halle sailel , el-khanemi of borno, Aro priests, ifa priests and other more . These guys you listed had no bearings to Africa to a large extent.

plaetton:
Again the point being lost on you here is that we are hinting to you, albeit , with strong words, that Africa has enough heroes whose life and deeds are worthy of promotion and emulation than a mythical sociopath from the ancient middle east.

To try promote a figure, whom you also agree, to have unsavory personal qualities, is an insult to all of us.
So, what you are getting is a natural pushback.
So stop the sulking.

. It would be difficult because this is a religious platform as I said . It's when I present it from a secular view point then I can chose from a list of other Africans whom I deem fits such criteria would I then not make reference to any scriptural figure.

One of The essence of the Jewish scriptures is to teach man how to be good and make right choices ...how to overcome those acts of ours that could bring dishonor to ones reputation . I didn't neglect or gave anyone an impression that Abraham was too good. He had his conflicts,controversies and more . I only just highlighted it in a mild manner because I intend to hint on his good sides for now . Because I want to eat a whole chicken doesn't mean i'll swallow it whole with the feathers . And from the topic I used it should guide one on what to expect ...and even more . It's when I tell you Abraham was so good that ppl said there was no one like him that is where I am been dishonest . But where I tell you he was a rebel, anti conformist,fought wars not on playgrounds but on battlegrounds,took decisions and stands that caused his trial by courts in his fatherland becos of his offences against the state,gave you ideas that much of his martial activities were watered down from traditional Judaic precepts ....then any rational mind should know that I touched on some negative or extreme acts that wil be viewed as extreme which I wasn't ready to dwell on because that is not the theme of my write up .Except you took no time to read what I wrote but already had ur opinion about the character of his person or you expected I should hav written in a style which you approve off ...

And I believe this section of platform on nairaland is the religions section ...and religion is a universal language or concept with very similar values throughout ? From a religious perspective of the positive attributes of Abraham I tried to highlite wot is wrong or not worth emulating by anyone even those of whom you listed to me pls ? This isn't a secular topic . But how to be good from an Iconic religious figure from the scriptures . I know of nothing that hasn't got two sides positive/negative, good/bad, light/darkness . I still say that Abraham had his bad sides but I chose to restrict my views to his positive attributes .... Which of the men did you know that didn't have a bad side ? Moses, Saul, Joshua, Noah, Adam,David,hezekiah...who among these men where you told were perfect men ?

The Jewish ppl are not forcing anyone to accept their beliefs ...they don't missionize ! In fact they encourage ppl to be themselves . The best the Jewish teaching could advocate is to create awareness of : knowledge of the true One G-d, not to show disrespect to the Creator which could be in the respect of beauty and life of all creation and nature, desist from murder, respecting the institution of marriage, not to take what rightfully doesn't belong to you by dealing honestly with ur fellow man, not causing needless harm to any living thing, and set up courts of truth and justice or a flourishing civilization . It's those who have no idea of the Jewish scriptural concept that go extreme or otherwise . The Jewish scriptures if properly understood encourage all to be unique rather than conform .

plaetton:
No disputes what Christianity attaches to Abraham. That is the way of religion. Religion tend venerate mad men and psychopaths.

The point here is that as an African, you insult us with your onesided view and veneration of your mythical Jewish stone age character, when we Africans have heroes like Marcus Garvey, Nelsonm Mandela, Gain Fawemini, etc that are equally worthy of veneration.

I have said it before that any African who call himself a child of Abraham deserves to be sold for a cup of palm wine.

Hmmmm....could you be a little bit civil in ur manner of reference pls, to avoid deragotery terms pls .
Noone insults Africans ...Africans just need to believe in themselves. Africans need to write their own stories and ideals that wouldn't be viewd as primitive,retrogressiv or barbaric . Ideals that transcends past, present aπϑ influence preceeding events .

Africans are africans enemies ...I don't wanna go into that but I think the transatlantic slavetrade is just a tip .
Listing of notable icons is a stepping stone the way Obama is a source of inspirition to the African-americans.
Noone is forcing Jewish/biblical figures on anyone ...like I still am repeating myself ,good attributes of any person in history can be used τ̲̅ȍ motivate . I chose/singled/cieved out attributes that are worth emulating even in our present era .
And its totally ur opinion for whoever feels he is a child of Abraham . Its more like choosing a heritage that you wanna identify with. Don't preach hatred ..but you could have that as ur cause to alter that perception amongst african youths .
You blame that to those who missionized generation of ur fathers

Abraham is the progenator of Judah and Ishmael if you get wot I mean ! Christians attach to him from a spiritual/religious perpective ! He is like an Ancestor τ̲̅ȍ those who practice true monotheism .

EvilBrain1:
Abraham never existed. He is myth made up by ancient jews for the purpose of justifying their claims on other people's land. Later others like the Muslim prophet saw how much people venerated the myth and started retroactively claiming him in order to lend credibility to their own beliefs.

And he's not even a good person despite being made up, in fact he was a pretty horrible guy. To save his own life, he disclaimed own wife and allowed her to be carried off by a stranger and added to a harem (and probably råped out of her senses). He was willing to kill his own son because the voice in his head told him to. He abandoned his first child and his baby mother to die in the wilderness. And he made grandiose claims of owning huge tracts of land when there were already other people living there. Even the one story with a decent moral about treating visitors with proper hospitality has been converted into a justification for homophobia and mistreatment of gays.

You'd think it would be easy to make a fictional character decent and likable. It just goes to show how messed up the people who made up the stories' morals were.

My brother you got it all wrong ...wether it was myth or folktale ...they didn't force it on anyone pls ...some of the best leaders from both the Greeks ( Alexander who insisted the Jewish scriptures be translated into multiple language even befor Jsus was born ) ,the jews didn't force anyone they we're forced with swords to....or is it the Romans who had no idea what the Jewish scriptures was all about carried the burden on their head ( constantine ) in order to retain relevance aπϑ influence throughout the known worlds then forced it on people. The legitimate descendants of Abraham (Jews) did not force anyone to . It is their story and History pls .

Most of these men listed were not even born at d time of Abraham . Despite their achievmnts they all had their personal shortcomings which noone can deny ....
Is it Socrates - who had s thing for young boys,drunkard,reputation for insincerity,hot tempered , couldn't lead a conversation without bein frustrated aπϑ showing resentment, always spoke ironic aπϑ was a worshiper of multiple dieties ...seems confused ( polytheist ).

Gheng khan - yes might have been militarily powerful in his conquest. But he was a barbarian, uncivilized, arrogant,a dictator,raped boys, girls aπϑ women,had a knack for killing even when his opponents surrenderd,highly irresponsible even τ̲̅ȍ his death .

Pyhthagoras - nothing much was known of him. He died hopeless...starved himself τ̲̅ȍ death ! What honor is in such ...life is worth it all !

Let ♍Ƹ̴ just stop for now ...!

Am not a sadist sha ...these men aπϑ the others had their roles ! They came aftr Abraham ! Even if I didint know them personally they we're great men who have influenced till date our present civilisation !

To quote Confuscious who was mentioned he said - " a gentleman points out the honourable qualities of men and does not point out their bad qualities ".

I believe I buy his (Confuscio) ideas and started on that note than degrade myself to a level where I'll talk ill of great men

I see good and positivity ..!

Honestly ....not at all ! it hasn't in anyway changed my opinion . I still maintain that I see good in Abraham despite his controversial side which I still noted he had all around him ,but all that did not in anyway deter his resolve to be better ,also as a figure who major religions claim descent from .

plaetton:
And all I did was challenge your opinions.

‎​Ơ̴̴̴͡k .
So Ў☺y challenge he wasn't honorable τ̲̅ȍ seek,defend,fight,reurn seized properties for those who couldn't defend themselves ?

Ў☺y challenge it isn't honorable not τ̲̅ȍ seek rewards for those who joined ur. cause even if Ў☺y kept nothing for urselv ?

Ў☺y challenge it isn't hospitable τ̲̅ȍ host strangers who seekd shelter in his tent due τ̲̅ȍ hot desert condition so they culd rest ?

Ў☺y challenge that he wasn't a responsible Leader catering for thoe wit him by been responsible for them ?

Ў☺y challenge he wasn't honorable τ̲̅ȍ challenge religious beliefs aπϑ social systems that wasn't right in his time ?

Ў☺y challenge he wasn't toughened as a desert nomad τ̲̅ȍ adhere τ̲̅ȍ harsh conditions aπϑ situations enabling assertivness from him as a leader ?

I culd go on aπϑ on ...like I still said " he was a rabble rouser,a rebel, an iconolast, an revolutionist who showed no respect τ̲̅ȍ authorities he felt corrupt ....he had his controversies aπϑ more that I did highlit in a subtle way .

I wanted τ̲̅ȍ dwell on his positive sides

plaetton:
I don't know what you mean by having grudge against the man Abraham.
You tried to make your case with bible as your support.
I made my own case also with the bible as my support.

It is only an unintelligent person that would make the case that Abraham conributed anything meaniful to humanity, other than siring generations of human beings, something yours and my great ancestors did as well.

Did you emerge from a pond, or from the gene pools of a man like Abraham who also lived thousands of years ago?

A brain is a terrible thing to walk around without.

Na wah o ! ...anyway , ‎​Yε̲̣̣̣̥♠ ..... Ў☺y aя̩̥̊ε̲̣̣̣̥ right sha ! a brain is a terrible thing to walk around without . May those who seem τ̲̅ȍ have none grow some . May those who seem τ̲̅ȍ think that they have already grown brains aπϑ intelligence come τ̲̅ȍ realize they have nothing upstairs.

You are free τ̲̅ȍ make ur case against Abraham sha ....I no get power for debate now .

I just shared a thought and restricted my opinions to positive attributes of the Patriach anyone can emulate .

plaetton:
Abraham was also a pervert who committed incest by marrying his half sister.

Abraham was also an irresponsible husband who who sexually molested his female servants, sired children through them, and then later threw them out of his household without a care for the future welfare of the mother and child.

Abraham was also the most irresponsible father who agreed to sacrifice/kill his own son to show some bogus faith to so some bogus deity.

A man with such obvious character flaws is a man that most civilized people should be ashamed to be associated with, let alone honor.

Hmmmm........where is all that coming from ?! Ў☺y hav issues with guy ? ‎​​ℓ☺ℓ ! Anyway ...whatever ur grouse is ,G-d use men who flawed,imperfect,horrible past trailing them, controversial aπϑ anything despicable was identifiable with them ! G-d used men who we're willing τ̲̅ȍ effect change in their generation,who knew where τ̲̅ȍ stop aπϑ contemplate if their actions is worth τ̲̅ȍ establish a principle that is sustainable . Men who were willing aπϑ ready τ̲̅ȍ go back, seek redress,make amends with their fellow men aπϑ Creator . They strived τ̲̅ȍ better themselves despite their vulnerability as mere men . Whatever civilization Ў☺y feel Ў☺y represent or try τ̲̅ȍ emulate or makes Ў☺y feel Ў☺y aя̩̥̊ε̲̣̣̣̥ a civil fellow ...for now had its bedrock from men of the scriptures . Western civilisation aπϑ Islamic civilisations owe a lot τ̲̅ȍ this ancient personality my dear friend. Even from my write up I didn't giv you a concept that he was a perfect man .

1goodman:
Question: "What was the relationship
between David and Jonathan?"
Answer: We know from 1 Samuel 18:1 that
Jonathan loved David. Second Samuel 1:26 records
David’s lament after Jonathan’s death, in which
he said that his love for Jonathan was more
wonderful than the love of a woman. Some use
these two passages to suggest a homosexual
relationship between David and Jonathan. This
interpretation, however, should be rejected for at
least three reasons.
First, the Hebrew word for “love” used here is not
the typical word used for sexual activity. This
word for “love” has clear political and diplomatic
connotations (see 1 Samuel 16:21 and 1 Kings 5:1 ).
Second, David’s comparison of his relationship with
Jonathan with that of women is probably a
reference to his experience with King Saul’s
daughter. He was promised one of Saul’s daughters
for killing Goliath. But Saul continued to add
conditions upon this marriage with the underlying
desire to have David killed in battle (1 Samuel
18:17 , 25 ). The love David had received from
Jonathan was greater than anything he could have
received from Saul’s daughter. Third, the Bible
clearly and consistently denounces homosexuality
( Genesis 1:26-27 ; Leviticus 18:22 ; 20:13 ; Romans
1:18-25 ). Extolling a homosexual love between David
and Jonathan would be contradicting the
prohibitions of it found throughout the Bible.
The friendship between David and Jonathan was a
covenantal relationship. In 1 Samuel 18:1-5 , we
read of David and Jonathan forming an
agreement. In this agreement, Jonathan was to be
second in command in David’s future reign, and
David was to protect Jonathan’s family ( 1 Samuel
20:16-17 , 42 ; 23:16-18 ).
Obviously, these two men were also very good
friends. In their relationship we can see at least
three qualities of true friendship. First, they
sacrificed for one another. In 1 Samuel 18:4 , we
read that Jonathan gave David his clothes and
military garb. The significance of this gift was
that Jonathan recognized that David would one
day be king of Israel. Rather than being envious or
jealous, Jonathan submitted to God’s will and
sacrificed his own right to the throne. Second, in
1 Samuel 19:1-3 , we read of Jonathan’s loyalty
toward and defense of David. King Saul told his
followers to kill David. Jonathan rebuked his
father and recalled David’s faithfulness to him in
killing Goliath. Finally, Jonathan and David were
also free to express their emotions with one
another. In 1 Samuel 20 , we read of a plan
concocted by Jonathan to reveal his father’s plans
toward David. Jonathan was going to practice his
archery. If he told his servant that the arrows he
shot were to the side of the target, David was
safe. If Jonathan told his servant that the
arrows were beyond the target, David was to leave
and not return. Jonathan told the servant that
the arrows were beyond the target, meaning that
David should flee. After releasing his servant,
Jonathan found David and the two men cried
together.
Rather than being evidence for a homosexual
relationship in the Bible, the account of David
and Jonathan is an example of true biblical
friendship. True friendship, according to the Bible,
involves loyalty, sacrifice, compromise, and yes,
emotional attachment. That is what we should
learn from David and Jonathan. The idea that
the only person in the Bible described as “a man
after God’s own heart” (Acts 13:22 ), was a
practicing homosexual (or bisexual) is ridiculous
and has no true biblical basis.

source: http://www.gotquestions.org/David-and-Jonathan.html

David and jonathan we're involved in a strange relationship that was disgusting. The Bible is not gonna hide facts it says it as it is . These we're vulnerable men. David more especially typified the extremes of both human aπϑ divine potential. I know the thought of him(david) being in such an act might seem horrible τ̲̅ȍ you aπϑ come τ̲̅ȍ think of the role he played ....but that is G-d for Ў☺y . H-s ways aren't ours .
HE looks beyond our frailties . I know it sounds repulsive but hey ...these guys we're into something abominable !
- aftr killing Goliath, david went τ̲̅ȍ King saul for ceremoy aπϑ there he saul's son Jonathan. Taken the scripture literally it was L♥√ǝ̥̥ at frst sight ( 1 sam 18:1 also. Gen 2:24 ) the hebrwe word "love" - "ahab" conotes familial L♥√ǝ̥̥ aπϑ sexual L♥√ǝ̥̥ dependin on context .

Their relationhip angerd Jonatham's father King saul. He reacted by quietly arrangin for david τ̲̅ȍ marry his daughter ( jonathans sister ) Saul knew about their relationship aπϑ was trying τ̲̅ȍ intervene ( 1 sam 18:17 )
Here their gay relationship became undeniable - ( 1 sam 20:24-30 aπϑ 1 sam 20:40-42 )...after kissing his lover goodbye aπϑ restating their undying L♥√ǝ̥̥ aπϑ devotion - 1 sam 23:16-18
The exit of Jonathan from davids life gave him a chance τ̲̅ȍ rebuil his relationship with G-d . Its just too clear , that jonathana was davids true L♥√ǝ̥̥ aπϑ soulmate . 2 sam 1:26 .

Ralphmann:
Wow this is interesting. I never knew all these as most were not stated in the bible. I have often wondered what criteria God used in selecting Abraham. If all these were true then I concede Abraham was greater than we imagine

Yes indeed, there is a lot that isn't stated in the bible. Most are preserved and documented in Jewish Ancient writings,sources aπϑ Talmudic Sages .

Superman whenever I read about Abraham, for here was a man, a real man, who without super powers certainly acted in super ways.
 
Abraham was certainly no cuddly type of grandfather figure similar to how he is fictitiously portrayed today. The real Abraham Avinu invoked awe and fear in the hearts of those he encountered, not feelings of warmth and love. Avraham was a rabble rouser, a rebel, an iconoclast, and a revolutionary. He showed absolutely no respect for the corrupt social/political establishment in which he was raised.
 
He certainly did not accept the modern day idea to work within the system to bring about change. Abraham was no coward. He was fearless. He was a man, a superman; who acted with strength and resolve, caring nothing for the feelings, and sensitivities, of the misguided. Abraham would not allow himself to be emasculated, to act as less than a man. When faced with social/religious nonsense and injustice, he acted against the system. He did not seek to modify it; he sought to replace it, by whatever means possible.
 
Abraham was a warrior, not just in word, but in deed. One who just talks does not act. One who just acts can be a bull-headed fool. Yet, one who knows how to unite the two, to talk and act in harmony; such a one is heard; such a one can change the world. Yet, such a person must be willing to "walk one's talk," and to embrace conflict, if that is what needs be.
 
Abraham was a man unafraid of conflict. He recognized well that wars are won with a combination of words and arms. He began his war against social/religious hypocrisy by force of words and when necessary conducted it by force of arms. Through it all, God was with him. Because Abraham was not willing to compromise; because he stayed on target doing the right thing, regardless of consequence, God saw in him the potential to become the father of the chosen nation. Mind you, being chosen did not make one better, smarter, better looking or more rich. Being chosen instead gave one a heavy burden, a responsibility to carry out a nearly impossible task. Yet, who better than a human superman could be chosen to carry out such an impossible mission.
 
Traditional Judaism, as it developed in exile, placed emphasis on Abraham's attributes of mercy and hospitality. This was a deliberate attempt to remove the rich martial mentality from Jewish history that came to a crashing end with the defeat of the Bar Kokhba revolt against ancient Rome.
 
Since this period, accustomed to exile, Jewish leaders have always endeavored to cover up the Jewish martial past for reasons that are subject to much controversy. Yet, before these embellishments were developed, the Biblical story plainly describes Abraham as a desert warrior and a tribal chieftain.
 
Outside and away from his martial element, Abraham is praised and extolled as being a man of hospitality. Yet, this is nothing unique. Even to this day, desert chieftains and tribal elders are proud of the hospitality they show their guests, and the viciousness they show their enemies. Abraham was not very much different. Indeed, if Abraham were alive today, modern day tribal chiefs would hold him in the highest esteem.
 
Ancient legend tells us that the religious and political authorities of his day tried Abraham for crimes against the state, and sentenced him to death. Yet, a miracle occurred and he was miraculously spared. It was only after this encounter, when Abraham had proven himself and was Divinely vindicated did God tell him to leave that place and to go far away to start anew.
 
Abraham did not run away. He was in no danger. He had won his battle. Yet, now being victorious, there was nothing more that he could do. Those who would hear him had already listened. Those who would not hear him never would. The present state was a stalemate. Therefore, God told Avraham that enough was enough and that it was time to take matters to the next level and that that could only happen in isolation, far away from prying eyes and jealous hearts. So, to Canaan Abraham went, with "all the souls he made in Haran." These are those who saw the truth and could no longer live in a community based upon lies.
 
Abraham up until now was a man of the city, an urban dweller. He now had to learn to become a desert nomad and a tribal chief. He became responsible for those souls he had "made." He had to provide for them both spiritual and physically. Indeed, he rose up to the occasion and did what he was expected to do.
 
The real Abraham was a man molded by controversy and adversity. Although God was certainly on his side, nonetheless the nomadic lifestyle that Abraham and his tribe lived was arduous and hard. It made Avraham and his party tougher and stronger than they already were from the battles in Ur Casdim.
 
After the legendary victory over the fire in the days of Nimrod, no one would ever dare mess with Abraham. Indeed, years later, in Canaan, when Lot was taken captive, Abraham, in the typical desert fashion of his day, attacked those who laid hands upon his kin. Abraham did not enter into negotiations with them, nor did he offer any bribes, and certainly made no requests for mercy to anyone other than God. Abraham attacked his enemies and slaughtered them, as would be expected of any powerful tribal chief.
 
Abraham was also a man of honor. When restoring the booty from the battle, he wanted nothing for himself. Although he made arrangements for his companions to receive their rewards, Abraham's reward was the knowledge that he had performed a job well done. True men of honor do not seek financial wealth as their rewards; they seek only honor and respect. Indeed, Abraham deserved both, not only from men, but also from Heaven.
 
This was the reason why Heaven chose Abraham to become its agent here on Earth. This ordination of sorts occurred when Abraham met Melchizedek, and through him made an offering of thanks to God. According to ancient sources, Abraham's meeting with Melchizedek was not simply to receive refreshments. Melchizedek actually passed on his own priesthood to Abraham. This is the moment when Abraham became the "father" of a "nation of priests."

Marriage is a Holy act before the Creator ...and if am not mistaken it was the Creator's first instruction to mankind . Melchitzedek, Aaron aπϑ his descendants,levites had offsprings ,enjoyed marital life and more .

Noone can really explain to you that but you are an intelligent reader . Yes,There is a problem with with the sun appearing on the 4th day also how was a day then quantified wen we observ the evening and morning approach unlike the sun rising and setting ? ...I believe a day is completely differnt from the Creators perpective with wot we are used to . Time was described differently there ...from Adam the flow of time is totally from a human concept ,but prior to to that time was an abstract concept and was described differently.Time was created for us ....imagine a Being who created the entire solar system, galaxy explaining concepts to a little man trapped within the earths pull ( gravity or atmosphere)...a day on earth is certainly different from a day in pluto,mars, jupiter or even the moon .Breaking forth from earth atmosphere and wen in space am sure without a proper developed time tracking device if you we're τ̲̅ȍ float with ur conventional wristwatch travelling from earth to let's say mars might take you 3yrs but wen you notice ur wristwatch it might only move for 3hrs in space the whole time ...anyway there are too many approach to answew, but just to note ... the story of the human soul bagan wit adam and was numbered differently while the story of creation was also quantified differently . Scientific data tries to shows the earth has been for like some 15billion yrs aπϑ the earliest human civilisation is if am not mistaken close to a 100,000yrs ago . This shuld keep mankind busy I think to reconcile all this ...

Hmmmmm

G-d is most times referred to as He out of convenience sake ...G-d is neither male nor female. Nor has G-d any body parts !

Gen 4:7 - " if you do well,will you not be accepted ? And if you do not do well,sin lies at the door. And its desire is for you,but you should rule over it "

I guess you know who said this ?

Sirniyeh: you've made the point! In summary God created freewill, freewill remains the living spring of sin. Indirectly God created Sin.
.
Clap for yourself

G-d created man with freewill aπϑ again, What is sin in the first place ? Sin is doing wrong ! G-d expect us to sin, just like he expected that Adam would sin. This is why he created "repentance" before anything. Our entire struggle as human beings is to learn how to come back, how to repair , fix and love again. The worst thing to do after a sin , is to hide and get depressed. Our low self esteem is boosted by our evil inclination and we fall into a deep hole, and despair. But what does the "righteous" do ? He get's back up, no matter what sins, no matter how deep and ugly, he stands , wash himself off, confront his ugly deeds and start fixing and changing his ways , until he loves himself again, until he forgives himself and others , until the others love him again( this one doesn't always happen, but one needs to be creative to bring love and peace back).

victorels: it took me time to say something here.
God created man to be perfect as he created the angels to be perfect.

But their was something that man lacked and God was teaching Him that before he fell. If man had the knowledge of the devil, God would have destroyed Him.

The devil being full of wisdom according to your description and being the captain of the angels then wade a very great power. angels had wills also, If not, only satan would have been the rebellious one. He decided in His power to over throw God. "He said in His heart, I will ascend the throne of God". This was the beginning of iniquity.
He was pride of his position and decided to use it against his creator.

G-d did not create man a perfect being like angels ! Let me put in another way " angels were created with one foot standing always in the presence of the Almighty willing to obey perfectly without choice ,but man was created with two feet and can choose to or not to obey G-d .He created man with inclinations for both good and evil ! Pls re-read the Genesis account properly , satan wasn't present there it was recorded as a serpent of the field ! I pray we learn to stop blaming others and take responsibilty of our actions !

[quote author=Apatheist]According to the Buy-bull, god created humans to be in heaven with him[but created them with sin and put them on earth]
From this, most people in the world are going to hell.
They didn't know Jizz-us, so won't go to "heaven"
God failed. Your god is a failure.

[/quoe]

Please just to clear that misconception G-d created man to dwell on earth pls ! I don't now what we are goin to heaven to do ?

Jameselias: what do you mean by Hmmmm

Just pondering on the words of the pics and the opinion of the Op

Hmmmm

Please , I don't mean to offend anyones sensibilities or personal convictions to his/her faith . Am sorry if I did ,it wasn't meant too ...I take it more of a logical and enlightening discussion . We are all free to choose our paths pls . Shalom !

paxonel: you see, this is a clear reason why there is socialism and capitalism today. a capitalist will want a clear justice because all is well with him, but the moment things becomes bad (because no condition is permanent ) he begins to desire grace
on the other hand, a socialist understand that all hands are not equal. consequently, things can never be better for everybody in the society unless there is grace. so he becomes merciful to the poor
God who created mankind understand that everybody can not keep the law in the OT. so he becomes merciful by bringing the NT to help us, he decides to be merciful. will you now fight him for being merciful?

Like I always say I respect everyone's belief ...I enjoy reading ur opinions neither am I saying mine is the best but its good we always take a critical look at most of what is been revealed to us ..pls take ur time and ponder on this observations below please :

- We are told that God came to dwell on the earth as Jesus. However, I found that :
"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold the heaven and theheaven of heavens cannot contain You; much less this temple that I haveerected."
1 Kings 8:27

- We are told that God came as a human in Jesus to change the way things were tosomething better. However, I found out that :
God is not man to be capricious, Or mortal to change His mind. Would Hespeak and not act, Promise and not fulfill?
Numbers 23:19
Moreover, the Glory of Israel does not deceive or change His mind, for He isnot human that He should change His mind."
1 Samuel 15:29

- We are told that YHVH's glory was given to Jesus and all praise is to Jesus.However, I found out that :
"I am YHVH, that is My Name; and My glory I will NOT give to another,nor My praise to the graven images."
Isaiah 42:8

- We are told that God speaks in types and shadows and we must find those hiddenthroughout Scripture. However, I found this :
"Not in secret did I speak, in a place of a land of darkness; I did notsay to the seed of Jacob, Seek Me, in vain; I am YHVH, Who speaksrighteousness, declares things that are right."
Isaiah 45:19

- We are told that the God of the "Old Testament" changed to a moreloving God through Jesus in the "New Testament". However, note this as well :
And until old age I am the same, and until you turn gray I will carry; Ihave made and I will bear and I will carry and deliver.
Isaiah 46:4

- We are told that Jesus and God are the same, equal, alike. However, I also discovered :
To whom shall you liken Me and make Me equal and compare Me that we may bealike?
Isaiah 46:4,5
And to whom do you compare God, and what likeness do you arrange for Him?
Isaiah 40:18
"Now, to whom will you compare Me that I should be equal?" saysthe Holy One.
Isaiah 40:25

- We are told that salvation comes from Jesus who, according to 19 verses in theNew Testament, is "the son of man". However, I found thisinteresting:
"Do not put your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom thereis no salvation!"
Psalm 146:3
(Here are the NT verses in which Jesus calls himself, or is mentioned as, theson of man: Mk 14:21, 2:10, 2:18, 14:62, 10:45, 13:26; Mt 26:24, 24:30, 11:19,16:27, 9:6; Lk 22:22, 7:34, 5:24, 12:8; Jn 3:13, 5:27; Rev 1:13, 14:14)

- We are told that Jesus is the savior and the redeemer. However take note :
I, I am YHVH, and besides Me thereis NO Savior.
Isaiah 43:11
And I am YHVH your God from the landof Egypt, and gods besides Me youshould not know, and there is no savior but Me.
Hosea 13:4
So said YHVH, your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, "I am YHVH yourGod, Who teaches you for your profit, Who leads you by the way you should go.
Isaiah 48:17
Thus said YHVH, your Redeemer, Who formed you in the womb: It is I, YHVH,who made everything, Who alone stretched out the heavens And unaided spread outthe earth;
Isaiah 44:24
For I am YHVH your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
Isaiah 43:3

- We are told that the "Law/Commandments" of the Old Testament are toodifficult for us to fulfill and many things are concealed from us, which is whywe need Jesus who fulfilled it all for us and now nothing is concealed.However, take note and realize it ( in mind that this is YHVH, Himself,speaking):
"For this commandment which I command you this day, is not concealedfrom you, nor is it far away.
It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us and fetch it for us, to tell [it] to us, so that we canfulfill it?"
Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say,"Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us and fetch it for us,to tell [it] to us, so that we can fulfill it?"
Rather,[this] thing is very close to you; it is inyour mouth and in your heart, so that you can fulfill it."
Deuteronomy 30:11-14
 
I'll stop here for now and allow you go through my opinion and Scriptures on all we have discussed .

paxonel: scosco1 : Quote Post
Who told you that anyone who breaks any
of the commandments is liable to die?
well,before God, death or mere punishment there is no difference .it is in this physical life that we have different punishments for a person who steal and another person who lie. before God it is not like that. it is one vedict for everybody who commit sin(no matter the sin, nothing like big or small sin ) and that vedict is death
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Show me where G-d said that in the OT when He was giving them the law(Torah) ...that if you fail one it's as if you failed all ? G-d is a just and righteous G-d ! HE alone gives true justice , justice in the sense that you get the punishment that is equivalent to the wrong that you did ! "he judges according to our deeds" ...G-d will not punish one a homosexual with the same degree of punishment with one who told a lie because he was hungry ! He no longer is a True and just G-d if HE does so ! So show me where when HE was giving the law(Torah) where HE said if you fail one you fail all or the punishment for failing one is equivalent to failing all ? ...deut 30:11 " for this commandment I give you today is not too hard for you , neither is too far " ....

Who told you that anyone who breaks any of the commandments is liable to die ?

You say the law is physical ? G-d never said the law(Torah) is restricted to our physical well being. When G-d saves He saves the whole .
-what do you have to say of tithing ?
-Charity ?
-marriage ?
-kindness even to animals ?
-studying the law(Torah) so it doesn't depart from our lips aπϑ heart ?
-Idolatry ?
aπϑ many more . Does the Torah's view on some of these subjects I listed only apply physically or they don't have spiritual implications ?

The law(Torah) is G-d's instruction to mankind . More like an instruction manual from a manufacturer τ̲̅ȍ Ў☺y so Ў☺y enjoy the product . Our Creator gave us guidelines on living within the earth that He created out of His goodness so we can overcome our evil inclination aπϑ enjoy Life.

"G-d is not a man"...God can "appear" as a man but not become a man please. He can appear in forms...that doesn't mean He is what Ў☺y saw !

Judaism suppress christianity ? ...don't know if Ў☺y are famiiar with history ? Please re-read your history books again . Jews have suffered persecution like no other nation in history , more especially in the hands of christians , Ok ?
By the way you are so right with ur figures ...christians are more ! So , who can persecute you Christians except you allow the so as to gain sympathy since its obvious you have such population ! Jews worldwide aren't upto 30milliion even wen am been generous wit the figures . Jews have been persecuted throughout their history even till now that Israel has been reborn in 1948 as state of Israel ! The only Jewish nation in the world !

Death wil cease forever when HaMashiach(Messiah) graces the earth during the messianic era !

" He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the Lord hath spoken it." - isa 25:8

Jsus since he died 2000yrs ago mankind hasn't stopped dying ! We are still dying !

We take G-d by His word , not some spiritual stuffs the christian folks are so gullible too accept . Christians are good at spiritualizing evrything .

I read ur views , in as much as I try to avoid sensitive topics as this but cause you mention judaism its good I clear some misconceptions .
Firstly , I'll start with this saying... " the issue of folks still thinking they are born with a debt that they cannot pay has not been found in the Torah or Hebrew scriptures. I put it to you that its a fabrication from the last 2000yrs. Noone for 4000yrs ever heard about an original sin " - Jeff Gilbert .
- that one is saved excpt born in a christian home is not true please. Noone can save except G-d : " See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." - deut 32:39
" I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour." - Isa 43:11
ONLY G-D SAVES !!

- who is paul to speak for Israel ? Paul rather thrilled the gentiles with philosophy and hellenized ideas. This was a man who practically twisted scripures in ur new testamnt !

- Christianity and Islam are offshoots of Judaism. They all started as one man's idea,self-spiritual journey,self realization and what have you ! G-d revealed and spoke to Israel as a Nation(3million) at Mt.Sinai. Judaism has been for close τ̲̅ȍ 4000yrs and we haven't shown any sign of leaving except G-d has changed ...‎​​ℓ☺ℓ !!

- you say the laws of moses wasn't enough ? Search ur scriptures properly ..although you can check this out :-
" 10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.

11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.

12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?

14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

16 In that I command thee this day to love the Lord thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the Lord thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them." - deut 30:10-20

(Please note 30:11-14 ) **

- You say judaism is not a religion of ‎knowledge. ....I don't wanna waste time on that ( jews produce,diffuse aπϑ apply knowledge )

- Jsus isn't Israel's Messiah please ...judaism finds it funny that he is the christian god. The term Messiah means "anointed". This refers to anyone initiated into G-d's service by been anointed with oil. Every king aπϑ prophet was a messiah !
Saul - 1sam26:4
David - 2sam23:1
Prophets - 1kings19:16
Non-Jewish kings - Isa45:1 ...am sure ur bible never called this king THE MESSIAH, however, he is the special anointed one who will usher the world into a future Utopian age, an age of perfection . We should be able to verify this One, who he is .
Don't wanna spend much time on this .

You also gave me that " a man is justified by faith without deeds(works) .... Honestly ur NT always contradicts itself and says something as this " faith without works is dead ..." , can't remember the verse but am sure you are famiiar with it.