₦airaland Forum

BetaThings:
The twelver shias are extremists and they are encouraged to drown sunnis in the sea and push walls down on sunnis if they can get away with it

please bring examples of Shia DROWNING Sunnis in the sea and PUSHING WALLS on Sunnis. mention, where they are encouraged to, and who has encouraged them to.

as far as Shia scholars are concerned, this is the legal opinion (fatwa) of Ayatollah Sistani arguably the most learned and experienced Shia scholar about Sunnis:

"Do not consider Sunnis as your brothers, but as your souls"

The Twelvers grow in places that are ignorant
In places where people are well informed, their misguidance is clear

well, it does not look like where you come from people are well informed as per your own standard of ignorance. since preaching activities started in the 80s, from zero Shia, estimates puts the number of Shia in Nigeria, and concentrated in the north, anything between a minimum of five million to a maximum of 25 million (the claim of 25 million was issued by a Salafist tv channel crying over the spread of Shia Islam in Africa). the converts include professors and lecturers and graduates in both Ahmadu Bello University in Zaria, and Bayero University in Kano.

BTW the author of the Al Kafi, the major Shia hadith book he quoted, Kulayni, even believe that the Qur'an has been tampered with (they call it tahreef)

you are either misleading ignorant folks, or you are lying. either case is bad. Al-Kulayni has a disclaimer to his book, Usul al-Kafi:

"'Test the various reports by the Book of God; whatever agrees with it take it,whatever disagrees with it reject it."'Take what is agreed upon (by scholars). Certainly the universally accepted should not be doubted.'"

The above is found in al-Kafi by al-Kulayni.al-Kulayni was a Shia hadith recorder/compiler (just like Bukhari and Muslim for Sunnis),and he considers the Quran (as per the saying of Imam Sadeq) to be the yardstick for separating truth from falsehood.

in Sihah al-Sittah of the Sunnis, traditions on Tahreef of the Quran, even narrated by Aisha, abound. not to go into details, you can take a look at the examples given in the below link:
http://www.shiapen.com/comprehensive/creed-of-shia-explained/tahreef-of-quran.html

does this mean we as Shia would accuse Sunnis collectively as believing in Tahreef because classcial Sunni scholars of past recorded hadiths supposedly "sahih" ones in their hadith collections? we do not.

I pray that you never suffer the misfortune of joining the people who imply that the Prophet (SAW) was such a poor leader that 99% of his follower abandoned his path immediately after his death
Every religious leader was blessed with followers the overwhelmingly majority of whom were faithful after their death (CF Musa (AS) and Isa (AS))
However the twelver Shias paint an opposite picture (a story misfortune really ) of the Prophet (SAW), his own followers were overwhelmingly turncoats

the Quran is evidence that the companions of Musa (as), but even his own people, apostasized en masse and started worshiping the golden calf. their apostasy was not rebelling on his orders but outright shirk against Allah (swt). does that make Musa (as) of any less a position as a prophet? No! we have not made any false claim on the sahabah. the ones who did what they did are judged by the history books. and even amongst the sahaba there was opposition and struggle, sometimes violent. among the companions are figures Sunnis discredit and/or abhor (Hujr Ibn Adi, Mukhtar al-Thaqafi).

the Shia stance on the Sahaba can be understood in three steps. the pure members of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) are the yardstick to judge:

1.) those sahabah who stood by and supported and loved the Ahlul-Bayt (as), we love, respect and honor them.
2.) those sahabah who were silent or indifferent towards the Ahlul-Bayt (as), we too are indifferent towards them.
3.) those sahabah who opposed the Ahlul-Bayt (as), oppressed and fought them, we abhor them with passion and consider them apostates.

Finally do the Shias abhor violence?
No. They pretend they like peace while Sunnis are hauled into prison or executed steadily
And what is the major assignment of the last Shia Imam (the one they call Hujjat)?
Below are from the Shia "Book of Occultation" (occultation is the the explanation given for the disappearance of the twelver Imam whose existence is doubted by many people

what is the assignment of the Mahdi in Sunni theology? to spread roses? or dont you have "Sahih hadith" where it is narrated that even the stones and the trees would talk and tell the Mahdi that a "Jew is hiding and he should come and kill him"?

our major belief on the Mahdi or the 12th Imam (aj) is this: "he will fill the earth with justice and equity the way it was filled with injustice and tyranny". this is the stance in many dua we recite for Allah to hasten his return. we are of the belief he will resort to armed struggle. but like the Prophet (s), and as the Quran stipulates, he will not be the first to carry arms or to start war or to attack. Jihad is defensive to protect the lives and property of innocent Muslims who are oppressed. other than that, nothing is jihad but terrorism. even when oppressed, taking up arms is the very last resort. this is our faith, our principles and how we act and how we are taught.

at least, the Mahdi, whether you as a Sunni bellieve he hasnt yet been born, or as a Shia that he has already being born but in concealment, is sent by Allah. so whatever he will do will be in line with divine command. at least, wait for him. but your people go about blowing up everyone, even innocent civilians who have not picked up arms to fight. it is haram to kill non-combatants in Islam, even if they be infidels.

Ibn Taymiyyah : The Founder of ISIS

December 9, 2015

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Ibn Taymiyyah is one of the most quoted personalities of ISIS, Al Qaeda and Boko Haram. In this article we will learn about him, his ideas and why so many Muslims of the salafi sect go on to join terrorist groups or commit homeland attacks.

Which Groups Take Inspiration and Guidance from Ibn Taymiyyah’s Works?

Boko Haram founder Mohammed Yusuf is reported in the Financial Times article to have based his teachings on the works of Ibn Taymiyya, after whom he named his mosque in Maiduguri, Markaz Ibn Taymiyyah ( Translates to the Ibn Taymiyyah Centre). Mohammed Yusuf was killed in 2009 by a police raid.

ISIS distribute a magazine in English which frequently references Ibn Taymiyyah.

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Al Qaeda former leader, Osama Bin Laden famously quoted Ibn Taymiyyah’s Fatwa of Madin as justification for civilian and Muslim casualties in his terror attacks.

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Dabiq Issue 6 page 40: Al Qaeda member reports how he studied Ibn Taymiyyah’s books.

Who is Ibn Taymiyyah?

Aḥmad ibn Taymiyyah (Arabic: تقي الدين أحمد ابن تيمية) known as Ibn Taymiyyah (22 January 1263 – 26 September 1328) was an Islamic scholar, theologian and logician. He lived during the troubled times of the Mongol invasions, much of the time in Damascus. He was a member of the school founded by Ahmad ibn Hanbal and is considered by his followers, along with Ibn Qudamah, as one of the two most significant proponents of Hanbalism. In the modern era, his adherents often refer to the two as “the two sheikhs” and Ibn Taymiyyah in particular as “Sheikh ul-Islam”. Ibn Taymiyyah sought the return of Sunni Islam to what he viewed as earlier interpretations of the Qur’an and the Sunnah, and is considered to have had considerable influence in contemporary Wahhabism, Salafism, and Jihadism. He is renowned for his fatwa issued against the Mongol rulers declaring jihad by Muslims against them compulsory, on the grounds that they did not follow Sharia and as such were not Muslim, their claims to have converted to Islam notwithstanding. His teachings had a profound influence on Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, and other later Wahabi scholars.

The main issues Ibn Taymiyyah is famous for are as follows:

Belief in God in Human form (anthropomorphism) eg Allah has a Hand, and moves like this etc. He was sent to prison for this several times.
Belief that there is no intercession at all.
Belief that if someone does not accept his exact version of Islam, they should be fought and killed.
Belief in Qiyas or inductive reasoning.

Ibn Taymiyyah is particularly useful for groups like ISIS as he provides them with a (false) religious backing that justifies their actions.

Dabiq is a magazine published by ISIS for the English speaking world, it includes their ideas, news reports and propaganda for their cause. One of the religious personalities that ISIS quote regularly is Ibn Taymiyyah, they even call him the “Sheikh of Islam”, which translates to the leader or founder of Islam. This is high praise indeed.

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From Dabiq Issue 2 page 23

Ibn Taymiyyah’s best student, Ibn Qayyim is also a favorite of ISIS, referred to as “Ibnul-Qayyim” he is frequently quoted and used as a religious source of religious authority.

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Dabiq Issue 4 page 15

Selected Quotes from Ibn Taymiyyah et al in ISIS Magazine : Dabiq

It is not possible to include every quote from Ibn Taymiyyah, Abdul Wahab or Ibn Qayyim, there are simply too many, so I have selected the more interesting and controversial ones to give a glimpse into the mind of the ideology which fuels ISIS and the other terror groups.

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Dabiq Issue 7 page 59

The above quote is discussing the situation of those non-Muslims who are protected in an Islamic area, they are to be killed if they “curse” Islam, however in reality the “cursing” could just take the form of a mild mannered joke, such as when the 14 year old tea boy would not give free tea to ISIS fighters he mentioned he would not even give the Prophet SAW free tea, he was immediately executed.

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Dabiq Issue 6 page 11

Here Abdul Wahab was trying to lay down the religious justification for fighting the Ottoman Muslims, paving the way for the puppet leaders of the Arab world, many of which are still going. Yasir Qadhi has summarised the situation very well in his video lecture of the History of the Middle East.

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Dabiq Issue 5 page 26

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Dabiq Issue 8 page 45

This is the crux of the issue. This is the dirty secret that the vast majority of the innocent masses that attend Salafi institutions around the world are not told. Ibn Taymiyyah says that if someone becomes a Muslim, and acts like a Muslim, but there are some issues that they disagree with Ibn Taymiyyah’s views on Islam, then that person should be executed immediately. This is the justification for the deaths of so many Muslims by the hands of ISIS, Al Qaeda, and Boko Haram, the Muslims that died were not “real” Muslims as they didnt have the exact same view of Islam as they did. For the Non-Muslims there is just no chance, they are to be executed, as was seen above, Jihad and the spreading of the religion is continuous and they feel must never end and continue to be spread by the sword.

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Dabiq Issue 8 page 46

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Dabiq Issue 8 page 46

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Dabiq Issue 8 page 52

So those that do not agree in the very narrow view of Islam as defined by Ibn Taymiyyah are either apostates (murtad) and to be executed, or they come under the category of hypocrites (munafiq) if there difference is more subtle. The punishment is the same, execution.

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Ibn Taymiyyah Ruling on the Druze from Dabiq Issue 10 page 9

If you are unfortunate enough to have a very different world view to Ibn Taymiyyah then your fate is even worse. Ibn Taymiyyah and his like have no concept of pluralistic views, there is also no chance to even “repent”, as Ibn Taymiyyah views even the repentance as unacceptable.

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Ibn Taymiyyah encourages Jihad against his opponents by labelling them “apostates”. ISIS do the same, from Dabiq Issue 10 page 10

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Dabiq Issue 10 page 56

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Dabiq Issue 10 page 57

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Dabiq Issue 10 page 63


This is just a snap shot of the impact Ibn Taymiyyah has had on the terrorist groups of the world, and due to this impact, Egypt, France, Jordan, Tajikistan, Algeria have either banned or considering to ban all works from the Salafi sect.

Source: http://islam.hilmi.eu/ibn-taymiyyah-the-founder-of-isis/

Demmzy15:
Last time I checked the Lord of Takfir are Shias, a Wahabi might declare you to be a innovator or be harsh in criticizing you but hardly do they declare you a kafir. In the fatwa I posted about Ibn Taymiyyah up, he didn't even declare the bulk of Shias kafir, he made excuses for them and this is the same with all Wahabis.
Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abdulwahab(rah):
“As for what the enemies mention about me that I declare disbelief simply on the basis of conjecture or that I declare a disbeliever who is ignorant or the one who has not had the proof established against him, THEY ARE GRAVE LIES, by them they only seek to make the people flee from the religion of Allaah and his Messenger” (al-Muallifaat 7/25)

you have uttered falsehood to cover up for the extremism of terrorists and their wahhabi/salafist predecessors who provided the literature for takfir and takfiri killings done today by Sunni Wahhabi/Salafist extremists.

Ibn Taymiyyah said about the Raafidah (derogatory term used by Wahhabis for mainstream Twelver Shia) :

“They are more evil than most of the people of desires, and they are more deserving of being killed than the Khawaarij.”

[Refer to Majmoo’ul-Fataawaa (28/482) of Ibn Taymiyyah]

Regarding the Druze, a Shia sub-sect (just like the Alawites) found in Syria and Lebanon, Ibn Taymiyyah said:

"That they are unbelievers is something that all Muslims agree upon; in fact anyone who doubts that they are unbelievers is an unbeliever like them; they are not in the status of people of the scripture nor the idolaters; for they are stray unbelievers and their food is not halal, their women are to be enslaved, and their fortunes are to be taken away. They are apostate heretics and their repentance is not accepted; they are to be killed wherever they are found; cursed as they are described; and they are not to be employed in guarding or keeping doors or keeping peace. And their scholars and saints must be killed so that they do not lead other astray; it is haram to sleep with then in their homes; and their companionship; and walking with them; and walking in their funerals if you knew about their deaths. And it is haram for the rulers of Muslims to do away with the punishments that Allah has decreed upon them. It is only Allah's help that is sought and on Him do we depend."

Regarding the Alawites, another Shia sub-sect, found in Syria and Lebanon, Ibn Taymiyyah said:

Of the Druze and Nusayris (Alawites): what is their standing?

He answered: "These Druze and Nusayris are unbelievers by the Ijmaa' of all Muslims, eating their slaughtered meat is not halal, neither is marrying their women; they are not even to pay Jizya; for they are apostates of Islam, neither are they Muslims, or Jews, or Christians, they do not believe that the five prayers are wajib, nor that fasting Ramadan is wajib, nor that Hajj is wajib, neither do they make haram what Allah's messenger has made haram such as (consuming) carrion and alcohol and others. Even if they say the two shahadas along with these beliefs they are unbelievers by the Ijmaa' of all Muslims".

COMPARE WITH WHAT THE PROPHET SAID:

1.) EVERY PERSON WHO PRONOUNCES THE TWO SHAHADA IS A MUSLIM.

2.) ANYONE WHO PASSES TAKFIR ON A MUSLIM (DECLARING ANOTHER MUSLIM WHO UTTERS THE TWO SHAHADA AS A KAFIR) IS HIMSELF THE KAFIR.

seguun: Yes I saw the statement... and that is why I will still be surprised because you acknowlegded the quran is right about Allah alone having the klnowlegde of the hour. At the same time instead of you to admit the shia over praise their imams, you said you are not in the position to answer the question. Will you then believe if you hear from the shia's "oga at the top" he possesses the knowledge(of the hour)?.

this is the hadith you questioned if based on it the Imams have the knowledge of the hour:

"The Imams have knowledge of whatever occurred in the past and whatever will happen in the future, and nothing is concealed from them" (Ibid, p. 260.)


-does the hadith say the Imams have knowledge including of the knowledge of the hour?

to us,the Quran takes precedence.so if the Quran says no one knows something,and a hadith says someone knows things of the past and future,it means that someone knows the past and future with the exception of what the Quran rules out.so the Imams are granted knowledge of the past,and future things on earth that are not prohibited by Allah (swt).if it is prohibited,then it can not be part of "whatever happened in the past and whatever will happen in the future".to the Shia,the Quran is the rule,and the hadiths the details.

satisfied? or you too want to play around?

Goodnight!!!

BetaThings: Sadly I am here to bore you to whatever

It us strange that you classify virtually all the sunni ahadeeth that your position as sahih and label those that don't as fabricated

what is really strange is when you have prominent sunni scholars differing on a single hadith's authenticity.that is a shame.

as for me,i am shia.i take what supports my views in your books.and they are abundant there,and prominent sunni scholars declare those hadiths authentic,while the bias ones differ.that is strange.if i don't accept contradictory sunni hadiths which praises Umar,its not strange coming from a shia like myself.the evidence supporting my views in your books are much,and your scholars accept them as authentic.

muslims examine the bible,and bring out what supports islam.that becomes a slap for christinaity,just like it is a slap for sunnis when our proofs are in your books.you cant expect a muslim to accept John 3:16.do you?what is strange is the confusion that ensues when prominent scholars differ on a single hadith.one side supports its authenticity and prove the shia right,while the other side plays around to finger the hadith and deny its authenticity,.shame!

BetaThings: So sunnis who take time off work to go to the mosque are forced to pray nawafil behind Shias Imams
When will they pray the obligatory prayer - when they get home in the evening?
And they will do this everyday?

lol

please tbaba come carry your pikin from here.you see what I was saying? petty arguments based on speculation.

if you don't want to pray behind a shia imam,you can feel free to wait 5 minutes after he is done with the main congregational prayer.then you can do your prayer with one sunni leading.in "sunni mosques",after the main congregational prayer,those who come after it is done,still do it in congregation.

ive not heard of a sunni who was beaten in Tehran for preferring to pray behind a sunni imam.in Saudi Arabia is where the Wahhabis literally flog people in medina for standing by the Prophet's (sa) grave,in the masjid an-nabawi.

and here we go,betathing is dragging on petty arguments.sorry but you wont be replied and you wont succeed here to derail the thread,and get many replies that will finally make you arrive nowhere.

if your boss (tbaba) doesn't want to continue,get another thread.this thread belongs to deols.i engaged tbaba because he is salafist,and he can hold mature discussions,to clarify our respective views and stances relating to the thread.this thread is not for argument.i wont reply to you again.

SALAM!

tbaba1234: 4. I have left with you something, which if you strictly adhere to, you shall never go astray–The Book of Allah and my progeny.”

This version has been narrated in Sunan Tirmidhi and is classed as Dhaeef (weak). Even though Imam Tirmidhi included it in his book, he himself did not consider it Sahih (authentic) and referred to it as Ghareeb (i.e. strange in its content and not widely recognized).

This version of the Hadith does not have any valid chains of transmission. Some of the narrators of this version of Hadith al-Thaqalayn were openly known to be Shia, such as Ali ibn al-Munzir al-Koofiy, Mohammed ibn Fudhayl, and Atiyyah Al Awfi.

A narrator is rejected if the content of the narrative is peculiar to a particular deviant school of thought if it is narrated by a deviant who ascribes to such a school of thought (Al-Kifaayah fi `ilm al-Riwaayah).

QED.

facts about hadith al-thaqalain (hadith of the two weighty things):

-Sheikh Albani (a salafist scholar of hadith) regarded it as "sahih"!!!

-both Muslim (in his Sahih) and al­'Imam al-Hafiz Abu `Abd Allah al­Hakim al­Naysaburi in his Mustadrak narrated "sahih" versions.

-it takes 10 companions to narrate a hadith for it to be regarded as "mutawatir",which puts the hadith beyond any doubt of scrutiny.more than 30 companions have narrated hadith al-thaqalain.

this is what al-hakim al-naysaburi has to say on two of four "sahih" narrations of the hadith:

- (Al­Hakim says: ) Narrated to us Abu al­Husayn Muhammad ibn Ahmad ibn Tamim al­Hanzali in Baghdad, from Abu Qallabah `Abd al­Malik ibn Muhammad al­Raqqashi, from Yahya ibn Hammad; also narrated to me Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn Balawayh and Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn Ja`far al­Bazzaz, both of them from `Abd Allah ibn Ahmad ibn Hanbal, from his father, from Yahya ibn Hammad; and also narrated to us Abu Nasr Ahmad ibn Suhayl, the faqih of Bukhara, from Salih ibn Muhammad, the hafiz of Baghdad, from Khalaf ibn Salim al­Makhrami, from Yahya ibn Hammad; and Yahya ibn Hammad narrated from Abu `Uwwanah from Sulayman al­'A`mash, from Habib ibn Abi Thabit, from Abu al­Tufayl, from Zayd ibn Arqam, may God be pleased with him, who said: "The Messenger of Allah , may God's peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny, while returning from his last hajj (hijjat al­wada') came down at Ghadir Khumm and ordered (us) towards the big trees, and (the ground) underneath them was swept.

"Then he said, 'I am about to answer the call (of death). Verily, I have left behind two precious things amongst you, one of which is greater than the other. The Book of Allah , the Exalted, and my `itrah (kindred). So watch out how you treat these two after me, for verily they will not separate from each other until they come back to me by the side of the Pond.' Then he said 'Verily, Allah , the Almighty and the Glorious, is my master (mawla) and I am the master of every believer (mu'min).' Then he took `Ali, may God be pleased with him, by the hand and said, 'This (`Ali) is the master of whomever I am his master. O God, love whoever loves him and be the enemy of his enemy.'"

(Al­Hakim adds: ) "This hadith is sahih in accordance with the conditions of sihhah laid down by the Shaykhayn (al­Bukhari and Muslim), although they have not recorded it in its full length."


-(Al­Hakim says: ) Narrated to us Abu Bakr Muhammad ibn al­Husayn ibn Muslim, the faqih of Ray, from Muhammad ibn Ayyub, from Yahya ibn al-Mughirah al­Sa`di, from Jarir ibn `Abd al­Hamid, from al­Hasan ibn `Abd Allah al­Nakha`i, from Muslim ibn Subayh, from Zayd ibn Arqam, may God be pleased with him, who said: "The Messenger of Allah , may Allah's peace and benedictions be upon him and his progeny, said, 'Verily, I leave behind two precious things amongst you: the Book of Allah and my ahl al­bayt. Verily, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the side of the Pond.'"


(Al­Hakim says: ) This hadith is sahih al­'isnad according to the conditions laid down by the Shaykhayn (al­Bukhari and Muslim), though they did not record it. (al­Hakim, op. cit., vol. iii, p. 148)


please refer to the below for more evidence from Sunni scholars:

shiite: In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful

At Ghadir Khumm, the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his family) declared his final will to his entire Ummah. This will is binding upon the entire Ummah, including the Sahabah, till eternity. It gives direction to the Ummah after him.

Sayyid Hasan al-Saqqaf has stated in his Sahih Sifat Salat al-Nabi 29:
[size=14pt]
ففي سنن الترمذي : 5/663 برقم : 3788 قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله : إني تارك فيكم ما إن تمسكتم به لن تضلوا بعدي أحدهما أعظم من الآخر ، كتاب الله حبل ممدود من السماء إلى الأرض وعترتي أهل بيتي ، ولن يفترقا حتى يردا عليّ الحوض فانظروا كيف تخلفوني فيهما
[/size]
And in Sunan al-Tirmidhi 5/663 No. 3788, it is narrated that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him and his family) said: I am leaving among you that which if you hold onto you will never go astray after me. One of them is greater than the other. It is the Book of Allah, a rope stretching from the heaven to the earth. The other is my itrah, my Ahl al-Bayt. The two will never be separated until they reach me at the Pond. Watch closely how you treat them both after me.

Sayyid al-Saqqaf states:

وهو صحيح
And it is sahih.

Shaykh Nasir al-Din al-Albani, in his Sahih Sunan al-Tirmidhi 3/542 No. 3786 also records:
[size=14pt]
: إني تارك فيكم ما إن تمسكتم به لن تضلوا بعدي أحدهما أعظم من الآخر كتاب الله حبل ممدود من السماء إلى الأرض وعترتي أهل بيتي ولن يتفرقا حتى يردا علي الحوض فانظروا كيف تخلفوني فيهما
[/size]
I am leaving among you that which if you hold firmly onto you will never go astray after me. One of them is greater than the other, and it is the Book of Allah, a rope reaching from the heaven to the earth and the other is my Itrah, my Ahl al-Bayt. The two will never separate until they meet me at the Pond (of Kawthar). Watch how you treat them after me.

Al-Albani says:

[size=14pt]صحيح[/size]

It is sahih.

There is also a separate hadith that seems to explain the one above:

[size=14pt]إني تارك فيكم خليفتين ، كتاب الله حبل ممدود ما بين السماء والأرض وعترتي أهل بيتي ، وأنهما لن يفترقا حتى يردا عليّ الحوض
[/size]
I am leaving among you two successors: the Book of Allah, a rope reaching from the heaven to the earth and my Itrah, my Ahl al-Bayt. The two will never separate until they meet me at the Pond.
Sahih Jami' al-Saghir 1/842 No. 2457

Al-Albani once again says:

[size=14pt]صحيح[/size]

It is sahih.

In spite that this hadith is very clear about the fact that:

1. Both the Qur'an and the Ahl al-Bayt (as) are to be followed after the Holy Prophet (peace be upon him and his family)
2. As long as the Qur'an exists, there is an Imam from the Ahl al-Bayt (as) to be its companion, both of whom MUST be followed together

Sunnis nonetheless claim that the hadith only commands us to love the Ahl al-Bayt (as) and NOT to follow them!!!

Source: http://wilayat.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=408:hadith-thaqalayn-at-arafat-and-at-ghadir&catid=64:featured-articles&Itemid=54

tbaba1234: I have been nice enough. Maybe Betathings will take over when he see this thread.

Don't worry, whatever information, i give out will be reliable.

lol...I dey beg you in the name of Allah.

you're here to convince "deols".

id rather have you than BetaThing,he goes in circles and hes boring.

I need his oga.

seguun: I'm actually surprise with the bolded because I believe you know this is explicit in the quran.
"Lo! Allah! With Him is knowledge of the Hour...Chapter (31) sūrat luq'mān.

Also all the abrahamic religions(judaism,christianity and islam) agree on this.

and you didn't see this statement I made? :

"but as per the holy Quran,not even the Prophet Muhammad (sa),whose superiority to the 12 holy Imams of his household,we do acknowledge and carry on our heads,was informed by Allah (swt)".

do not learn "cherry-picking".its not good.

tbaba1234: ^ Anyone who wants more detailed information about the shia can send me a mail (tbaba1234@yahoo.com)

This discussion is a waste of time, it can last for months with no resolution.

haba,my friend.its not like that.im a shia and I am present here.why do you want to go behind my back to spread rumors about us? that's not fair.

lets do it here!

seguun: Surely your explanation does not explain these;

"The Imams possess all the knowledge granted to angels, prophets and messengers" (Al-Kulaini, Al-kaafi, p.255.)


"The Imams have knowledge of whatever occurred in the past and whatever will happen in the future, and nothing is concealed from them" (Ibid, p. 260.)

Including the hour?

I am not in the position to answer that question,and I can only reply with "Allah knows best".but as per the holy Quran,not even the Prophet Muhammad (sa),whose superiority to the 12 holy Imams of his household,we do acknowledge and carry on our heads,was informed by Allah (swt).

tbaba is just trying to detract and drift from the point by spotting what he wants you to consider as a magic trick against "Shia beliefs".We are simply here to prove the belief of the imamate right,which the shia hold and sunnis reject.we have thus established that all muslims must follow the Thaqalain because they were chosen by Allah and the Prophet (sa) to lead and guide muslims.they were the most knowledgeable in their times.whatever privilege the Shia record these Imams possessed,it is by the will,power and permission of Allah (swt).its that simple.

tbaba1234: 3.
Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 700:

Allah’s Apostle set out for (the Battle of) Tabuk, appointing Ali as his deputy (in Medina). Ali said, “Do you want to leave me with the children and women?” The Prophet said, “Will you not be pleased that you will be to me like Haroon to Musa? But there will be no prophet after me.”

Subhanallah,so Hadith al-Manzilah is even in your mighty "Sahih Bukhari".Alhamdulillah.

so I guess here there is no question the hadith is "weak".or does Ibn Taymiyyah have his view that weakens this too?

This Hadith is not evidence for the Caliphate of Ali after the death of the Prophet because the comparison made was between Ali and Prophet Haroon. It is well-known that Prophet Haroon died before Prophet Musa, and thus was never his successor after him. The successor of Prophet Musa was Prophet Yusha (Joshua) and therefore if the Prophet had wanted to imply successorship, then surely he would have likened Ali to Prophet Yusha. Infact this is evidence against the shia.

if I am to go by your logic,then I can say that in fact the mistake,error or fault is from the Prophet (sa) for not making the similitude between Imam Ali (as) and Prophet Yusha (as).you know why? because Imam Ali (as) unlike Prophet Haroon (as) did not die before his own "musa".so didn't the Prophet (sa) and Allah (swt) know Imam Ali (as) would be unlike Haroon (as) who died before Musa (as),and Imam Ali (as) would live after the death of Prophet Muhammad (sa)? astaghfirullah!!!

you see,my dear friend,the truth is like pregnancy you cannot hide it.

the fact that Haroon (as) died before Musa (as),does not mean Haroon (as) was not the chosen successor of Prophet Musa (as).had Haroon (as) lived after Prophet Musa (as),who do you think would be given preference by Prophet Musa (as) and by Allah (swt),Prophet Haroon or Prophet Yusha (as)? ofcourse Haroon (as)!!!

it is not like the Prophet Muhammad (sa) didn't know Imam Ali (as) would live after him.he made the comparison between Imam Ali (as) to Haroon (as) and not to Yusha (as) because Haroon (as) was the first choice by Musa (as).if Prophet Muhammad (sa) would have made the comparison with Imam Ali (as) to Yusha (as),salafists like yourself would still come out to point out that the first choice of successor was Haroon and not Yusha (as).so then,you will claim that therefore Imam Ali (as) was not the first choice of successor of the Prophet Muhammad (sa)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

let us see what the holy Quran has to say about the relationship between Haroon (as) and Musa (as),which should be applied between Imam Ali (as) and the Prophet Muhammad (sa) as per hadith al-manzilah:

Holy Quran 20:25-32
(Moses) said:: "O my Lord! expand me my breast; Ease my task for me; And remove the impediment from my speech; So they may understand what I say; And give me a vizier (Minister) from my family; Aaron my brother; Add to my strength through him; And make him share my task..."

Holy Quran 7:142
"And We made an appointment with Moses for thirty nights and perfected them by [the addition of] ten; so the term of his Lord was completed as forty nights. And Moses said to his brother Aaron, "Take my place among my people, do right [by them], and do not follow the way of the corrupters."

whenever Prophet Muhammad would liken anyone to a Prophet, he would make sure to clarify that this is only a comparison and does not mean there will be any Prophet after him.

He also said of Umar:

Sayyiduna Uqbah bin Amir (may Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Holy Prophet, may Allah send greetings and salutations on him, said:

If there were to be a prophet after me, indeed he would be Umar, son of Khattab. [Sunan Tirmidhi, Hadith 3686]

However you do not see anyone praising Umar the way you people over praise Ali. You do not see anyone arguing that Umar should be the successor.

you mean the Prophet (sa) would issue "empty words" to make Umar "happy"? astaghfirullah!!! "he speaks not of his desires but revelations revealed".

the hadith that Umar would have been a prophet after the Prophet (sa) had there been,is an empty praise of fabrication.obviously whoever fabricated this hadith wanted people to regard Umar in the level of a prophet.i wont even dwell on this more than it deserves.people can further research on this ridiculous hadith.we are talking here about Umar,who on several occasions questioned the authority of the Prophet (sa),dragged his clothes,insulted him and according to some Sunni narrations,he is one of the "twelve hypocrites" who wanted to assinate the Prophet (sa),and the Prophet (sa) revealed their names to Hudhaifa,

tbaba1234: You are still missing the point...

I have waited enough time on this thread. You and i know that we can never agree on these things, I would just keep exposing the weakest of your beliefs and you would never agree. So it is a waste of time.

my dear,i beg you in the name of Allah (swt) to remain in this thread.you fail to see the point too.it is not about I convincing you or you convincing me.

it is about others seeing what we are discussing and they make their judgement.

this thread is for "deols".you are here to convince her,not me.i am here to convince her why she should become a Shia.im not after convincing you.just do us help with your presence and give us your own side of the story.

you can make "weak" anything you like.and I will spend my time to make it strong per Sunni standards.

please,in the name of Allah I beg you not to abandon this thread.please stay.

tbaba1234: ^ I can provide a far longer list that consider it daeef (weak)... Like i said, even if you take the middle ground and say it is hasan, the meaning is sound, you guys need to put the brakes on because you overthink everything that has to do with Ali. This is the kind of extremism that unfortunately has infected you guys.

As usual, You have made no point.

please present the "longer list" and let us examine your "longer list".

"bring forth your proof if you are truthful".

you call us "extremists" for clinging to a hadith of the Prophet (sa) rated by your Sunni scholars of hadith as "hasan" and "sahih",while you forget that Ibn Taymiyyah who condemned the hadith is in fact the one described by a Sunni Hanafi mufti as "extremist" and "stubborn".

"Say truth has come and falsehood has vanished,for falsehood by its nature is a vanishing thing".

tbaba1234: 1. "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate".
2. Surah 33:32-33:

Wives of the Prophet, you are not like any other woman. If you are truly mindful of God, do not speak too softly in case the sick at heart should lust after you, but speak in an appropriate manner;stay at home, and do not flaunt your finery as they used to in the pagan past; keep up the prayer, give the prescribed alms, and obey God and His Messenger. God wishes to keep uncleanness away from you, people of the [Prophet’s] House, and to purify you thoroughly.

This address was to the wives of the messenger to observe limits and hereby purify themselves...

the verse of purification is so distinct in its tense and speech from the address to the wives earlier.and to the admission of Aisha (who was one of the wives) herself in Sahih Muslim,you Sunnis are lying!!!

the verse of purification uses masculine tenses,while the address to the wives uses feminine tenses.
the wives of the Prophet (sa) are told to stay in "their houses".while the verse of purification refers to the "people of the house",i.e. one house! let us see who the "people of the house" are.

A'isha reports:
“ that God's Apostle (may peace be upon him) went out one morning wearing a striped cloak of the black camel's hair that there came Hasan b. 'Ali. He wrapped him under it, then came Husain and he wrapped him under it along with the other one (Hasan). Then came Fatima and he took her under it, then came 'Ali and he also took him under it and then said: God only desires to take away any uncleanliness from you, O people of the household, and purify you (thorough purifying)" (Sahih Muslim Book 031, Number 5955)

if to the admission of Aisha (who fought Imam Ali in the battle of jamal),Imam Ali (as) is one of the five in whose respect the verse of purification was revealed,then my challenge stands.

MY EARLIER CHALLENGE

"Allah have kept away from you the impurity [of sin], O people of the [Prophet Muhammad's] household (Ahlul-Bayt), and to purify you with [extensive] purification". (33:33)

Now if you can convince me Aisha was a believer (as per her condemnation in Surat Tahreem),and she was sinless as per verse 33:33,and she did nothing wrong in the battle of jamal against Imam Ali (as),who then was the "imam of the time" of all muslims,then I'm ready to follow her and even obey her.

The prophet warned his own beloved daugther fatima.

Volume 4, Book 51, Number 16:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

When Allah revealed the Verse: "Warn your nearest kinsmen," Allah's Apostle got up and said, "O people of Quraish (or said similar words)! Buy (i.e. save) yourselves (from the Hellfire) as I cannot save you from Allah's Punishment; O Bani Abd Manaf! I cannot save you from Allah's Punishment, O Safiya, the Aunt of Allah's Apostle! I cannot save you from Allah's Punishment; O Fatima bint Muhammad! Ask me anything from my wealth, but I cannot save you from Allah's Punishment."

How then can you think human beings are infallible.

the words of the Prophet (sa) warning his daughter,is to set an example and ceiling for the people.it is to portray his justice.it doesn't mean his daughter whom Allah (swt) has protected from "RIJS" (uncleaningness/sin/blemish) in verse 33:33,would steal.

No one is exempted from error,which is a quality of human nature. The Prophet pointed this out when he said, "Man is liable to mistake, and the best of those
who do are those who turn to Allah in repentance." (At-Tirmidhî, Ibn Mâjah and Ad-Dârimî, it is narrated with a good chain of transmission) While the Prophets infallibly convey the Revelation, their infallibility does not extend beyond this. How many Prophets have been admonished by Allah, and on occasions corrected? Allah mildly reproved the Prophet in a well-known Chapter of the Qur’ân, saying:

those admonitions by Allah (swt) do not stand or amount as evidence of the "sinful" nature of the prophets concerned.

Prophet Muhammad (sa) is described in the Quran as:

"he speaks not of his desires,but revelations revealed"

"you are surely of the most sublime character".

and many more!!!

{"He [i.e. the Prophet] frowned and turned away - Because there came to him the blind man, [interrupting]. But what would make you perceive, [O Muhammad], that
perhaps he might be purified – Or be reminded and the remembrance would benefit him? As for he who thinks himself without need, - To him you give attention. And not upon you [is any blame] if he will not be purified. But as for he who came to you striving [for knowledge] - While he fears [Allah], - From him you are distracted. No! Indeed, they [i.e. these verses] are a reminder…}(Qur’ân 80:1-11.)

On another occasion, Allah tells Prophet Muhammad: {May Allah pardon you, [O Muhammad]; why did you give them permission [to remain behind]? [You should not have] until it was evident to you who were truthful and youknew [who were] the liars.} Qur’ân 9:43.

Allah also says addressing the Prophet, {"…while you concealed within yourself that which Allah is to disclose. And you feared the people, while Allah has more right that you fear Him…"} (Qur’ân 33: 37.)

This is the messenger (peace and blessing be upon him) being queried in the Qur'an...

we do not believe those verses were revealed against the Prophet (sa).the instances for which those verses were revealed and to condemn certain individuals are known.

your hadith narrators,the likes of Anas Ibn Malik,have fabricated hadiths even to demote the Prophet (sa) himself and give him a bad image.

it is known that Anas Ibn Malik for instance narrated a hadith in "Sahih Bukhari" that the Prophet (sa) tortured some people by cutting their hands,feet and inserting hot nails into their eyes,and then he made them lick the ground with their tongues,and finally left them in the scorching sun to die!!! this is the "prophet of mercy" according to Sunni hadith.it surfaces that this hadith by Anas Ibn Malik was fabricated to please the Ummayyad tyrant,al-Hajjaj Ibn Yusuf al-Thaqafi,who requested from Anas Ibn Malik a hadith narrating the most wicked punishment the Prophet (sa) inflicted on people.

the hadiths aimed to distort the image of the holy Prophet (sa) were falsely narrated to sort of give cover for the tyranny,wickedness and shortcomings of the tyrants who you recognize as "caliphs" and "leaders".the Prophet (sa) is above these wicked fabrications which have even made the non-muslims to insult him.the same goes about the hadith that he married a 6 year old Aisha.while this hadith aims to give that as a merit to Aisha,it is a demerit for the Prophet (sa).by historical records of Sunnis,Aisha was above 15 year old when the Prophet (sa) married her.

regarding the verse of "he frowned and turn his face away",it was the third Sunni caliph Usthman Ibn Affan who frowned at the blind man,Abdullah Ibn Umm Maktoom.

how shameful for a muslim to use parenthesis to insert the name of the Prophet (sa) where pronouns appear,in verses of condemnation for others.this is the legacy of the Ummayad fabrication and forgery machine.and you ask us how does the past affect us.obvious,we don't even regard the Prophet (sa) in similar ways.

tbaba1234: 1. "I am the city of knowledge and Ali is its gate".

weak hadith by most scholars, highest rating is hasan. Even at that, the meaning is sound. Ali was among the knowledgeable Shahaba. If Ali was at the gates, Abubakr and Umar were probably in the city. Also,old cities had four gates. Nothing here raises Ali's praise to the insane level that you guys have raised it to.

you have made a false claim that the "highest rating is hasan" for this hadith.

this hadith is found in Sahih Tirmidhi.it was later expunged in newer publications in Saudi Arabia.

A number of highranking Sunni Imams have graded the Hadith as authentic (sahih).

-Al-Hakim recorded it in his book al-Mustadrak, volume 3, page 126 and declared it as Sahih.

-Imam Yahya ibn Moin declared it as Sahih (Tahdib al-Kamal, v18 p72 Translation 3421).

-Imam Ibn Jareer Tabari in his book ‘Tahdib al-Athaar’ page 104 declared it as Sahih

-Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani declared it as Hasan (al-Fawaed al-Majmoa, Volume 1, p348 by Shawkani)

-Suyuti said: ‘Hasan’ (Tarikh al-khulafa, v1 p69).

-Al-Shawkani in his book ‘al-Fawaed al-Majmoa’ volume 1 page 348 declared it as ‘Hasan le Gharyu’

-Abdullah al-Ghemari in his book ‘Rad Etebar al-Jame al-Saghir’ page 15 declared it as Sahih.

-Ahmad bin al-Sidiq in his book ‘Fath al-Malik’ page 10 declared it as Sahih.

- Allamah Hassan al-Saqaf in the footnote of his book ‘Tanaqudat Albaani’ volume 3 page 82 declared it as Sahih


Ibn Taymiyyah,the follower of Ummayad legacy,and an enemy of the Ahlul-Bayt (as) Declared it "weak" and "fabrication";i.e. not even 'hasan' (good)!!!

Minhaj al-Sunnah, Volume 7 page 378:
“The tradition of ‘I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the gate’ is weaker (than other traditions). Therefore it is counted among the fabrications”.

The Sunni Mufti of Dar ul Uloom Qadiriyah Jilaniyah, London namely Mufti Ghulam Rasool al-Hanafi refutes the statement of Ibn Taimiyah in the following manner:

“Question: Ibn Taimiyah in his book Minhaj al-Sunnah has stated that the Hadith of ‘I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the gate’ is extremely weak and it has been counted amongst the Modhouat. When it is weak and Maudhu then it cannot be used for inference.

Answer: The statement of Ibn Taimiyah (d. 728 AH) that the Hadith of ‘I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the gate’ is weak and Maudhu is void (Batil) and evil (Mardood). Yahyah bin Moin has declared this Hadith as Sahih and has called its main narrator Abu Sult as Thiqa and Seduq. Since Yahyah bin Moin has declared this Hadith as Sahih therefore there should not be any doubt about this Hadith being Sahih and worthy of being inferred because Yahyah bin Moin is Imam of Jarah and Tadeel. While praising him, Ibn Hajar Asqalani wrote….”
Subeh Sadiq, page 156 (Published in London)

Sunni Mufti Ghulam Rasool took two pages mentioning the authoritative place enjoyed by Yahyah bin Moin in Ahlus- Sunnah and then he stated:

This proves that Yahyah bin Moin was one of the greatest scholars in the knowledge of Hadith and fields related to it. He was the one who was very well aware of the authenticity or unreliability of Hadith; and Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal has also clarified it that Yahyah bin Moin knows more about Sahih or weak Hadith. If Yahyah bin Moin mention the authenticity of any Hadith then it will be deemed Sahih. Those who would state anything opposing that will not be believed. When the Imam of Jarah and Tadeel namely Yahyah bin Moin has declared the Hadith ‘I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the gate’ as Sahih; moreover Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal has recorded it; moreover it is recorded in Jami Tirmidhi, then the statement of Ibn Taimiyah calling it weak and Maudhu is wrong and void. Moreover while relying on Yahyah bin Moin, Ibn Taimiyah himself stated that he is among the greatest Muhaditheen from the aspect of veracity, loyalty and Jarah and Tadeel. Moreover he stated: ‘Yahyah bin Moin and others have more capability of knowing the Sahih Hadiths. They have more eligibility of distinguishing between truth and lie, Sahih and Maudhu Hadith. If someone wants to investigate whether a particular Hadith is Sahih or weak or Maudhu, one should refer to Yahyah bin Moin and his likes’ (Tasfiyah Ma bayn Sunni o Shia, page 65 citing Minhaj al-Sunnah).

When Yahyah bin Moin declares a Hadith as Sahih then it is Sahih. When this is the situation then what meaning does the Ibn Taimiyah (d. 728)’s denying the Hadith ‘I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the gate’ being Sahih have! Ibn Taimiyah on one hand stated that Yahyah bin Moin has more knowledge in knowing the Sahih or Maudhu Hadith and the statement of Yahyah bin Moin will be more authentic in this regard. But on the other hand Yahyah bin Moin declared the Hadith ‘I am the city of knowledge and Ali is the gate’ as Sahih, Ibn Taimiyah then denied the same and stated that the Hadith is weak and Maudhu. This is stubbornness and extremism of Ibn Taimiyah. Therefore this statement of Ibn Taimiyah is void and evil, and the Hadith is Sahih.
Subeh Sadiq, pages 160-161 (Published in London)

deols: You mean the suggestion asking me to show the hidden post?

I have checked the post again and it doesnt relate with my question. To satisfy you, I hid tbaba's cos I realised you were trying to answer him and his response wasnt directly related to d question either.

You should see this avenue as a way to clear my doubts and should give your responses pls.

ok,thanks for the fairness.insha'Allah,i will soon give my responses.

what of the suggestion that you limit this thread to me and tbaba.we both can answer your questions and also respond to each other.in that way,the thread would be more constructive and free from quarrels and unnecessary exchanges.if it fine with you and tbaba,it is fine with me.

tbaba1234: Q1. Too late for that, The messenger (peace and blessings be upon him) said:

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever among you lives after I am gone will see a great deal of dissent.” Narrated by Abu Dawood (4067); classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood.

He also said that a group of muslims will drift away from the main body of muslims:

“Those who came before you of the people of the Book split into seventy-two sects, and this ummah will split into seventy-three: seventy-two in Hell and one in Paradise, and that is the jamaa’ah (main body of Muslims).” Narrated by Abu Dawood (4597) and others; classed as saheeh by al-Haakim (1/128)

I am sure you know who make up the main body of muslims.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) also described them in the following terms: “My ummah will split into seventy-three sects, all of whom will be in Hell except one group.” They said: Who are they, O Messenger of Allaah? He said: “(Those who follow) that which I and my companions follow.” al-Tirmidhi (2641)

Salam,its "LagosShia".spam-bot banned my main username.

I am only making this post to clarify on the two hadiths you posted.the hadith is accepted by the Shia,but the parts which specify the "saved/guided sect" (as the Sunni sect), are evident forgeries/tampering or interpolations in both abu-dawud and tirmidhi.i will later expand on the clarification,and contribute on the question of the salafi phenomenon (which is distinct and separate from the mainstream Sunni body,by the salafi standards and claims), pending "deols" reaction.

Insha'Allah if "deols" agrees to my suggestions,then I will participate in this thread further.but until then,SALAM!