double

vedaxcool: @ felis, permit me to add the following;

1. Somethings are explained in a limited way.

2. Somethings explained do not make sense.

3. Somethings are not explained at all.

What you are saying is that it is a combination of both. . . .makes sense. If you can post verses or hadith to support your points in the next post it will be very wonderful. Gracias.

Now on 2, I will say having read the entire Qur'an, cover to cover, there is no verse I have read that would make me conclude what was explained does not make sense! rather based on my points in 1 and as we shall see in 3, certain things were either explained in limited way or not explained at all. Hence the Qur'an does not fall into category 2, hence we can rightly say because the Qur'an does not fall into these category Faith in the Qur'an is not illogical! now while this hold true for the Qur'an there indeed some practices that we can consider illogical because they are not rooted in the Qur'an or genuine Islamic practices for instance during the last sallah, NTA showed different muslims praying at the eid ground, and then you see certain individuals chanting La illah ha illalah and hitting their chest, when you eventually ask such individuals why are you hitting your chest, they probably will justify such actions finding all sort of bizarre excuses this alos goes for practices such as self beating in the name of mourning, such actions are at best illogical and can rightly portray Islam as being inherently illogical, in essence they faith look more like a set of illogical practices that people can simply justify.

now on 3, like you alluded to there are certain verses that only Allah knows their meaning and by extension did not explain it to the ummah! hence these third part requires us to accept and believe in it as part of God's words. Now we could add another component to faith and then the components of faiths becomes quite like, trust, logics, a belief in things that are explained limitedly and a belief in things not explained at all. because we have trust in the authority of who revealed the Qur'an, this trust is earned and accepted as being founded on logics, i.e. because the author of the Qur'an has provided evidence to his wisdom, knowledge, transcendence and divinity, we are compelled by logics to accept and trust Allah when he says certain things that are not fully explained or not explained at all as being nothing more than the truth!

vedaxcool: Now on 2, I will say having read the entire Qur'an, cover to cover, there is no verse I have read that would make me conclude what was explained does not make sense! rather based on my points in 1 and as we shall see in 3, certain things were either explained in limited way or not explained at all. Hence the Qur'an does not fall into category 2, hence we can rightly say because the Qur'an does not fall into these category Faith in the Qur'an is not illogical!

A lot of people will disagree with this. What is your definition of logical and illogical?

vedaxcool: now while this hold true for the Qur'an there indeed some practices that we can consider illogical because they are not rooted in the Qur'an or genuine Islamic practices for instance during the last sallah, NTA showed different muslims praying at the eid ground, and then you see certain individuals chanting La illah ha illalah and hitting their chest, when you eventually ask such individuals why are you hitting your chest, they probably will justify such actions finding all sort of bizarre excuses this alos goes for practices such as self beating in the name of mourning, such actions are at best illogical and can rightly portray Islam as being inherently illogical, in essence they faith look more like a set of illogical practices that people can simply justify.

This practise has nothing to do with Islam but I agree, things like that make Islam look illogical.

vedaxcool:
now on 3, like you alluded to there are certain verses that only Allah knows their meaning and by extension did not explain it to the ummah! hence these third part requires us to accept and believe in it as part of God's words

But LagosShia said that they have explained meanings and even wrote on those meanings. Or are you saying he is wrong?.

vedaxcool: Now we could add another component to faith and then the components of faiths becomes quite like, trust, logics, a belief in things that are explained limitedly and a belief in things not explained at all. because we have trust in the authority of who revealed the Qur'an, this trust is earned and accepted as being founded on logics, i.e. because the author of the Qur'an has provided evidence to his wisdom, knowledge, transcendence and divinity, we are compelled by logics to accept and trust Allah when he says certain things that are not fully explained or not explained at all as being nothing more than the truth!

Can you expantiate on what these evidences are and why we should accept them as logical truth?
A big thank you for taking time to explain.

Sorry 4 the laspe in time.

fellis:
A lot of people will disagree with this. What is your definition of logical and illogical?

Logical is something that seems reasonable or sensible. Illogical is quite the opposite

fellis:
This practise has nothing to do with Islam but I agree, things like that make Islam look illogical.


But LagosShia said that they have explained meanings and even wrote on those meanings. Or are you saying he is wrong?.

I am baffled that you made any sense of what he wrote.

fellis:
Can you expantiate on what these evidences are and why we should accept them as logical truth?
A big thank you for taking time to explain.

I will just give one, the story of the creation of the earth, we find Muhammed pbuh being unable to have the slightest ability to give information regarding the earth's creation yet the Qur'an spoke briefly about it , though what I am writing now are mainly scientific theories that are widely accepted, we read or heard of the big bang theory yet b4 man became advanced enough to know a thing about it Allah revealed in the Qur'an that do u see that the heavens and the earth were a single unit till we cleft them assunder? The big bang theory centre around the notion that everything as we know it were all a single unit till they exploded going their separate ways etc the Qur'an further speaks of the sun and the moon running their own course in their own orbits this are clearly mordern discoveries, furthermore it speaks of people asking of the moon, the response remain grounded in facts which is the moon is a reflection of time in other words whatever shape the moon takes has no mystery to it rather it shows the state of time it is in. Now left leave the scientific and move to the simple matters, Christians claim that Jesus is god the simple response is simply rooted in logical arguments, which is, if Adam who has no father or mother is not god then how is did it become that jesus who had a mother became god? We move on to textual criticism, the Qur'an brought about a simple falsification test, do they not ponder on the Qur'an had it been from any other than Allah u would find therein many contradictions, yet the mockers of truth make numerous claims against the Qur'an yet till date Allah's word remains solid, it is based on this simple test that muslims have used as a means in verifying the divines of any book that claims to be from God, this very principle have led to an entire field of its own, textual criticism. There are many more verses that speaks of the irrefutable truths of the Qur'an (thaba have demonstrated these many times) but I stop here and make my points clear, it is inconceievable that any one man would author the Qur'an and then on top of that provide facts about things that only future generations would have the capacity to verify, it goes further, the fact that the Qur'an has consistently provided the truth in such a manner that has not be refuted remains clear that the author can be trusted when he says he knows and decides to give us information about things that we do not know and understand to be limited or unexplained! It is on this trust that is part of the component of faith do we conclude that faith is not entirely logical but goes hand in hand with trust furthermore this trust is not founded on illogical nor is it synonymous with illogical rather it is a trust founded on logical grounds the same trust we have in say CNN (me no trust them sha) that when they tell us stuff we do not say it is lie or a conspiracy but based on saying because we found them consistent we can trust them. In due time if I am opportuned I will try posting verses of things I said earlier

vedaxcool: Sorry 4 the laspe in time.

Don't worry about it.

vedaxcool:






the fact that the Qur'an has consistently provided the truth in such a manner that has not be refuted remains clear that the author can be trusted when he says he knows and decides to give us information about things that we do not know and understand to be limited or unexplained! It is on this trust that is part of the component of faith do we conclude that faith is not entirely logical but goes hand in hand with trust furthermore this trust is not founded on illogical nor is it synonymous with illogical rather it is a trust founded on logical grounds the same trust we have in say CNN (me no trust them sha) that when they tell us stuff we do not say it is lie or a conspiracy but based on saying because we found them consistent we can trust them.

I understand.

vedaxcool: In due time if I am opportuned I will try posting verses of things I said earlier

If it is not convinient for you you can forget about it. Another thing I was thinking was that faith has a broader perspective than just belief in what was revealed. The belief itself is only a part of the big picture, only part of what faith fully entails. So I think the topic is focused mainly on explaining the belief part and not really what the concept of faith in its entirety means.

@Vedaxcool
You write sense, but you should consider using the full stop more often.

IbroSaunks: @Vedaxcool
You write sense, but you should consider using the full stop more often.

LOL, good to see you bro.

fellis:
Don't worry about it.


I understand.

If it is not convenient for you can forget about it. Another thing I was thinking was that faith has a broader perspective than just belief in what was revealed. The belief itself is only a part of the big picture, only part of what faith fully entails. So I think the topic is focused mainly on explaining the belief part and not really what the concept of faith in its entirety means.

Yeah, I get u, but it is difficult or next to impossible to speaks of faith and restrict it to belief part as one concept reinforce other concept!

IbroSaunks: @Vedaxcool
You write sense, but you should consider using the full stop more often.

Lol noted this is mainly due to use of phone.

It is also quite suprising that a Shia is talking about logic and reasoning on faith.
Where is the logic in beating your selves every year until it becomes like bloody massacre or going to shines of dead people taking blessed and bowing down to them. Where is the logic when you mention Ali (ra) all you day and night and not Allah. Where is the logic when the poor people are paying 20% of the money to religious leaders and not to poor people. Where is the logic when the Shia religion is owned by only "supposedly" descendent of Mohammed (pbuh).
Islam didn't come as an ethnic religion. Where is the logic in making the religion as (sad and hatred and black hearted revenging religion ) even Christians have not hated Muslims like Shia. Shia are to be quite and shame when discussion about faith take place. Shia have faith on people like religious leaders and imams and not in Allah.

JAZAKALLAHU KAIRAN

LagosShia:


first it is quite suprising that a christian is talking about logic and reasoning on faith.i do not want to go deep on that before treating your question.however,christianity have no rationality for its beliefs.take for example the central doctrine of all christianity which is the crucifixion.there is no rationality for it.

in (Shia) Islam for instance as we also see in the Quran,the Aql or intellect is in fact regarded as one of the 5 basis to draw laws in the sharia system.the Quran does insist on the word "aql" (intellect) in many verses and actually in some verses asks the unbelievers:"don't you use your intellect","don't you reflect","don't you ponder" and "don't you think".if Islam wants us to believe without rationalizing,i do not think those questions would be asked in the first place.there is no concept in Islam of "believing first" and "understand later".it is in fact christianity which uses that technique and places the burden on "holy spirit inspiration" for believing.when you show them evidence in their bible and question their beliefs,they tell you that you need the "holy spirit".and that is exactly the same "holy spirit" excuse all christians use,even when they contradict each other and in fact do evil deeds.a pastor abused a woman in ghana and claimed the holy spirit told him to!!!

Islam does not ask anyone to believe blindly or because the religion says so.it gives good and valid reasons for everything in the system of things starting with the foundation which is Tawheed.the validity and rationality of Tawheed for instance is present in the Quran.why we do not believe God can beget a son is also rationally put in the Quran.

these are all based on how and what to believe.now in Islam there is a difference between a Muslim (someone who submits or accepts Islam) and a Mu'meen (believer who has faith).a Muslim is required to utter the shahadatain with his lips and believe with his heart.but the extent to which the Muslim believes in his heart,only God knows.that is why among the Muslims,you cannot know who is a true believer and who isn't.(there is the issue of conviction which must be based on understanding).in fact you are not supposed to know (who isn't a true believer) because only God can know what is in the hearts and only He can judge.you as a fellow human can assess outward actions and draw conclusions,but when it comes to especially a doer of good you really cannot tell if he is that good.therefore it is easier to recognize an evil person based on his outward evil deeds and harm,than an outwardly good person who is inwardly evil.

faith does come through submission (Islam),which must be based on intellect,reason and logic.thus,obedience without understand is indeed blindness!!!while Islam (submission) or becoming a Muslim starts and remains with the shahadatain uttered,faith (in the heart) can either keep growing or keep getting smaller until you lose faith in the religion altogether and stop being a Muslim.

this is a very good verse (differeniating inward faith and outward submission) of how Allah (swt) exposed the bedouins arabians who are described in the Holy Quran as the "stauchest in hypocrisy" because Allah (swt) knows what is in the hearts:

"The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."(49:14)

there are other things about people's inner selves and what they conceal inwardly that were also revealed to the Prophet (sa).the Quran does also make mention of those "secrets" concealed in the hearts of men to cause harm to Islam and God exposed them to the very amazement of those who concealed those evil thoughts,who later would ask "from where did the Messenger knew this"?


i would advice you read this:

"Rationality of Islam"

By His Eminence Ayatullah Sayyid Abu'l Qasim al-Khu'i

http://www.al-islam.org/rationality/

LagosShia:


first it is quite suprising that a christian is talking about logic and reasoning on faith.i do not want to go deep on that before treating your question.however,christianity have no rationality for its beliefs.take for example the central doctrine of all christianity which is the crucifixion.there is no rationality for it.

in (Shia) Islam for instance as we also see in the Quran,the Aql or intellect is in fact regarded as one of the 5 basis to draw laws in the sharia system.the Quran does insist on the word "aql" (intellect) in many verses and actually in some verses asks the unbelievers:"don't you use your intellect","don't you reflect","don't you ponder" and "don't you think".if Islam wants us to believe without rationalizing,i do not think those questions would be asked in the first place.there is no concept in Islam of "believing first" and "understand later".it is in fact christianity which uses that technique and places the burden on "holy spirit inspiration" for believing.when you show them evidence in their bible and question their beliefs,they tell you that you need the "holy spirit".and that is exactly the same "holy spirit" excuse all christians use,even when they contradict each other and in fact do evil deeds.a pastor abused a woman in ghana and claimed the holy spirit told him to!!!

Islam does not ask anyone to believe blindly or because the religion says so.it gives good and valid reasons for everything in the system of things starting with the foundation which is Tawheed.the validity and rationality of Tawheed for instance is present in the Quran.why we do not believe God can beget a son is also rationally put in the Quran.

these are all based on how and what to believe.now in Islam there is a difference between a Muslim (someone who submits or accepts Islam) and a Mu'meen (believer who has faith).a Muslim is required to utter the shahadatain with his lips and believe with his heart.but the extent to which the Muslim believes in his heart,only God knows.that is why among the Muslims,you cannot know who is a true believer and who isn't.(there is the issue of conviction which must be based on understanding).in fact you are not supposed to know (who isn't a true believer) because only God can know what is in the hearts and only He can judge.you as a fellow human can assess outward actions and draw conclusions,but when it comes to especially a doer of good you really cannot tell if he is that good.therefore it is easier to recognize an evil person based on his outward evil deeds and harm,than an outwardly good person who is inwardly evil.

faith does come through submission (Islam),which must be based on intellect,reason and logic.thus,obedience without understand is indeed blindness!!!while Islam (submission) or becoming a Muslim starts and remains with the shahadatain uttered,faith (in the heart) can either keep growing or keep getting smaller until you lose faith in the religion altogether and stop being a Muslim.

this is a very good verse (differeniating inward faith and outward submission) of how Allah (swt) exposed the bedouins arabians who are described in the Holy Quran as the "stauchest in hypocrisy" because Allah (swt) knows what is in the hearts:

"The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."(49:14)

there are other things about people's inner selves and what they conceal inwardly that were also revealed to the Prophet (sa).the Quran does also make mention of those "secrets" concealed in the hearts of men to cause harm to Islam and God exposed them to the very amazement of those who concealed those evil thoughts,who later would ask "from where did the Messenger knew this"?


i would advice you read this:

"Rationality of Islam"

By His Eminence Ayatullah Sayyid Abu'l Qasim al-Khu'i

http://www.al-islam.org/rationality/

I don't like it when Muslims are asked to discuss or share the the basis of their faith and they make a long intro by attacking Christianity. This is why students fail JAMB.

You don't grow relevant by pulling down others. #MyTwoKobo

Brothers and Sisters here in Islam..Am sorry I'll have to divert from this post,but I still want to associate with the righteous and educated mumee'n and mumeenats...I've reached a stage in my life i'm trying to get better in islam and I want to belong with the educated to brush up my understanding of the deen in english and relate to present life challenges. As u can read my write up isn't has sound as so many of you here so it cripples me whenever I read post like this and want to contribute immensely. So pls if there's any way I can meet up with you brothers here or if there's any programme that takes place for me to connect with you my brothers please let me be aware. Salam Alaykun