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| Bad Languages Require Ides by fallguy(m): 8:19pm On Dec 27, 2012 |
a programmg language should b relatively easy to learn, mayb not so easy to master. The language shdnt b prescriptive , it should have long cuts to ease learning strain at d onset but it shd have short cuts lots of it to reduce redundancy in typing etc. The core language should b separated from the extensions built on the core. Nice2have shdnt b compulsory and may b xcluded from d core. Example of a nice language- the c language : core language has few keywords, its very hands free, easy to pick up, nice2havs are not made language standards, everything else comes in a library. C has survived this many many years because it's all core and lil fluff. Example of a bad design . Java. Yeah, popular all mighty java. To understand java's design issue think of this scenario: a person who was still growing, slim and lithe 9 years ago but now obese. This fellow drives around in a world class suv (IDE) everybody hails his ride, but at home , moving around in the house requires a Vehicle too! So fatso cant move from parlor to bedroom without support he is dependent on a vehicle (ide) and he cant function in a typical house where people dart from parlor to loo to take a piss because he's so damn heavy. Any joe learng java has to accomodate an ide, java is so so obese. In trying to be all things it put on to much weight. More nimble languages always begin their market pitch by pointing out how much lighter they are than java. Ok lets ignore syntax verboseness, java is still obese. Java attacked the complexity inherent in modern software creation by providing so many classes and base libraries in addition to a language core and new versions keep swelling the add ons combine that with readable method and class names and u'd b incapable of doing anything with the language without serious help- an ide.help so serious the ides require software giants to build them. Java's handicap is serious. C sharp suffers the same bloat too. And they ve got billion dollar companies evangelizing them . Now any1 new to programming thinks an ide part of the language core. |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by Javanian: 8:59pm On Dec 27, 2012 |
fallguy: Any joe learng java has to accomodate an ide, java is so so obese. Wrong, i learnt Java without and IDE. This issue has been debated on this forum a lot of times, The Job of an IDE is to get the Job done easier, faster and in a more efficient way. |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by Fayimora(m): 12:39am On Dec 28, 2012 |
a programmg language should b relatively easy to learn, mayb not so easy to master. I disagree. A lot of people say "Language X is easy to learn" forgetting that it depends on your background. It depends on what you already know and what you want to do. It also depends on your style of programming(if you already do). No offense but your post is simply Gobbledygook. Every developer I know, myself inclusive, learnt Java with a text editor and the terminal. On a serious note, the only thing I can't do properly with my text editor is debugging and I'm not concerned because I hardly(almost never) use those debugging tools anyways. FYI, I use vim and I use it for 'EVERYTHING text'. |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by candylips(m): 10:23am On Dec 28, 2012 |
^^ if you don't debug then u are writting tivial programs. When you graduate to complex programs then u will see the need for a debugger sometimes to get ur sanity back |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by lordZOUGA(m): 10:49am On Dec 28, 2012 |
this guy just said that java programming language has a bad design... Am not sure he said that java developers are bad programmers.. |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by Kennyinusa(m): 2:09pm On Dec 28, 2012 |
Javanian:Hmmmm fallguy: Example of a bad design . Java. Yeah, popular all mighty java. java is still obese. Java attacked the complexity inherent in modern software creation by providing so many classes and base libraries in addition to a language core and new versions keep swelling the add ons combine thatPlease @fallguy dont attack java like t. passing.... Nope, nobody calls my Java *****. Though i am not really into the C family but you cant tell me that java is obese. Because its not. I dont know the world that you guys are from or the level of your expertise in any of the technologies that you use but one thing that i do know is that java is not so IDE dependent. Unlike C#, .Net and the like. C and C++ are still very much ok but whats the essence if i get to write the same sets of code that took you a whole day in minutes. Dont think that i am a kind of programmer that is IDE dependent, i learn the standard, life cycle, and structure of whatever technology that am using my IDE for. If i truely understand what my technology requires, then why notuse an IDE to better optimize my work and make me move really fast. I get what you 'll tring to say but java is not just so IDE dependent. It's just like setting up a new server when you have the cloud. Everything is moving............ lordZOUGA: this guy just said that java programming language has a bad design... Am not sure he said that java developers are bad programmers..They dare not say that java programmers are bad programmers,  simply because that are one too |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by fallguy(m): 5:22am On Dec 30, 2012 |
@javanian i learnt java without an ide too- but professional java development is monumental without an ide!- poor design. professional c ,lisp can occur without an ide!. ide is to contain the bloat (3,000+ classes with - triple the methods!!) @kennyusa i share your sentiments . i too cut my teeth on java! i know why java is popular - may write on that soon - it has a compelling side and is fast BUT java is also a marketed product - with $Billion company backing- any shoddy product with $Billion marketing is bound to get into every home!! - fact is most newbies can't tell what a good or bad tool is ! they go with the trends . though java swears strictly to OOP dyu notice java wants you to program FUNCTIONALLY sometimes! SMART LANGUAGES have short cuts - to shorten the work load - java 7 is realizing this and trying to bring in some shortcuts- they should have introduced massive shortcuts and increased overall class size by as many thousands as they want, so that the fast guys could b more productive but they wont. they'r inbuild collection classes are so rudimentary that google has to write a whole slew of faster smarter collection classes - c'mon, this is pathetic design for you. Another sign of poor language design is - the amount of resources needed to use the language. with java , latest java , you almost need gigahertz processors, gigabyte ram !! with lua,c,lisp, u need less resources. this is a sign of bloat! c sharp guilty too. |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by Fayimora(m): 4:00am On Jan 05, 2013 |
@candylips If you write your applications modular enough, and back them up with reasonable tests, you will almost never have to reach for the debug button. I work with legacy(10yrs+) and new systems everyday and I hardly ever need a debugger. However, there are times when i'm forced to use a debugger, like when i'm working with legacy code without tests which is just about 1% of the time. All I do is open in eclipse and debug, a little. Good read: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/208193/why-should-i-use-an-ide IDEs are for lazy people. Bottom line, you don't need an IDE. You simply want one! |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by WhiZTiM(m): 1:07am On Jan 06, 2013 |
You know the most amazing thing that baffles me... Language critics are often miopic. If java has a bad design, why don't you create a new language that is better  !Java runs in over 3.1billion devices... Even if marketed with bilions of US Dollers, can a bad design achieve that feat Why doesn't the all mighty C achieve that feat?? BRIEF The GNU and most UNIX guys worship the C programming language because of two things: 1. it nearly runs on hardware with the most minimal overhead(apart from assembly). 2. You own total control of every byte of memory usage ...and CPU... making you the programmer, in FULL authority of your program. @OP, I can bet you: If you knew C and Java perfectly... and you are given a task of developinig a biometric application for a National Population CENSUS.... You would rather do it in Java... (except if you are bigoted-ly miopic and insane)! For the record... I am not into Java... I am a C/C++ programmer(more profound in C++) ...and a perfect Linux and C/C++ fanboy! lemme make this more clearer... Linus Torvalds, the creator and Chief authority on Linux, hates C++ with so much passion!! He calls it a (rephrased)"flawed design that enriches dumb people to write critical programs with very poor efficiency, which is an abuse to programming". -----Well, guess what? GCC developers are currently migrating the development of ALL GCC toolchains in C to C+ +...aka, gcc sources and binary will be C++ ......Linus Torvalds' codebase largely, and I mean largely depends on gcc. I just want to see the reaction on his face... ...lol! After taking a free course on Compilers by Prof. Alex Aiken(the creator of COOL programming language, a small programming language that has more compilers than users... funny)... I realized the enormous work of making even the simplest of Compilers! I call this jungle debates... I have a little saying: "as far as there exist a solution that is most suited for the problem at hand, use it." 1 Like |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by WhiZTiM(m): 1:16am On Jan 06, 2013 |
... Forgive me for the unintentional newlines in my last post... 1 Like |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by Javanian: 1:28am On Jan 06, 2013 |
@whizTIM I so much love your posts... 1 Like |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by WhiZTiM(m): 1:49am On Jan 06, 2013 |
Javanian: @whizTIM I so much love your posts...Thank you Ma'am. ...I seem to make lots of grammatical blunders when posting from my Nokia phone... :-). ( ^ _ ^ ) |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by naijaswag1: 11:56am On Jan 06, 2013 |
fallguy: a programmg language should b relatively easy to learn, mayb not so easy to master. The language shdnt b prescriptive , it should have long cuts to ease learning strain at d onset but it shd have short cuts lots of it to reduce redundancy in typing etc. The core language should b separated from the extensions built on the core. Nice2have shdnt b compulsory and may b xcluded from d core. Example of a nice language- the c language : core language has few keywords, its very hands free, easy to pick up, nice2havs are not made language standards, everything else comes in a library. C has survived this many many years because it's all core and lil fluff. Example of a bad design . Java. Yeah, popular all mighty java. To understand java's design issue think of this scenario: a person who was still growing, slim and lithe 9 years ago but now obese. This fellow drives around in a world class suv (IDE) everybody hails his ride, but at home , moving around in the house requires a Vehicle too! So fatso cant move from parlor to bedroom without support he is dependent on a vehicle (ide) and he cant function in a typical house where people dart from parlor to loo to take a piss because he's so damn heavy. Any joe learng java has to accomodate an ide, java is so so obese. In trying to be all things it put on to much weight. More nimble languages always begin their market pitch by pointing out how much lighter they are than java. Ok lets ignore syntax verboseness, java is still obese. Java attacked the complexity inherent in modern software creation by providing so many classes and base libraries in addition to a language core and new versions keep swelling the add ons combine that with readable method and class names and u'd b incapable of doing anything with the language without serious help- an ide.help so serious the ides require software giants to build them. Java's handicap is serious. C sharp suffers the same bloat too. And they ve got billion dollar companies evangelizing them . Now any1 new to programming thinks an ide part of the language core. Imagine that you are a language designer, you will add to the growing number of your so called badly designed language.Why? Look at your post, it is difficult to read. I think you are learner. Java, C and C++ belong to the same class of programming languages( Go and find out). Recently, the success of twitter about fail whale (if you know about that) depended on moving twitter codebase from Ruby to Java. C is good for a different class of programs while Java fits into another sphere. There has got to be different languages. These languages were invented by flesh and blood and must conform to their limited reasoning. There can not be a one language fits all. So live with it. As for an IDE being part of a programming language, many geeks code by hand with the notepad, tools such as ant,compilers and command prompts in any programming language of their choice. Try building a large software. 1 Like |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by spikesC(m): 12:04am On Jan 08, 2013 |
Fayimora: I can't believe you said this |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by fallguy(m): 10:30pm On Jan 09, 2013 |
@whiz tim without critics they'd be no improvement. A critic told the emperor with no clothes that he was naked everybody else was a-cheering. Will develop a large system in c ? Not likely i'd use the most convenient tool available. On the other hand it would be "insane myopic egotistic" to write a device driver in java instead of c! Even java's 3d drawing library was so poor that the author of the book fell short of apologising to the reader for it! Point: different tools for different jobs. However, in the area of general purpose languages java's size is an embarrasment. Because java (standard edition) is so Obese a user will still be learning about java for years. And what's worse - the company behind java keeps adding more and more classes to the language! This is a sign that something is wrong design wise. To mask this or because of this a certification structure is setup , certification wouldnt be a big deal if the language didnt have so many moving parts! Popularity doesnt testify to good design . Any marketing major will tell you that bad products can succeed with good marketing while many good products die out. Google "worst is better" it discusses this. A good tool lets you cut the chase and go straight to work through lots of short cuts. This is why software from the 70s like emacs and vim are still actively in use today. The praise of lisp comes from its macro system partly, so as you use lisp, emacs, or Mathematics (a language) or English you can say more with less. E.g Fyi, imho,wtf, are shortcuts increasing convenience . Java lacks this inbuilt shortcut structure, so at 100k lines of code you are still writing in long hand . Enter the ide to the rescue . Naturally languages like c, c++ dont are terse so you can type less but java is readable a good thing but a bad thing for the typist . Enter the ide to the rescue. With java you need an ide else you'll wear out your wrist and fingers from typing method names. Again, a fallout of poor design. |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by lordZOUGA(m): 7:02am On Jan 10, 2013 |
KO! |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by WhiZTiM(m): 12:10pm On Jan 10, 2013 |
lordZOUGA:Mortal Kombat..?? *********************************************************************** fallguy: without critics they'd be no improvement.@fallguy... oops, you are a critic? --signing off this debate... cause I don't win points arguing with critcs. And yeah, I do appreciate critics cause, SOMETIMES they drive you to do better. Enter the ide to the rescue. With java you need an ide else you'll wear out your wrist and fingers from typing method names. Again, a fallout of poor design.!: C'mon!!!! Who doesn't use an IDE or a Project Management Software?? Linus Torvalds? Dennis Richie(RIP)?? WHO?? except for a small program or library of a few thousand lines... (don't justify this cause am off this argument) A good tool lets you cut the chase and go straight to work through lots of short cuts. This is why software from the 70s like emacs and vim are still actively in use today.Tell me why a hack-saw is still used today and why Computer Aided Cutting Machines are used. (pls don't) Tell me one large software that was written in Emacs and Vim or Nano? ..(again, if you find, don't tell me cause am not arguing further) To help you out... First of all, have you bothered to read the objectives and aims of Java? "Write software on one platform and run it on virtually any other platform" --And do not talk to me about cross-platform libraries of other languages cause there are many many more different implementations of JVMs than a cross-platform library typically implements. Now, back to my last points... However, in the area of general purpose languages java's size is an embarrasment. Because java (standard edition) is so Obese a user will still be learning about java for years. And what's worse - the company behind java keeps adding more and more classes to the language! This is a sign that something is wrong design wiseIs it the bogus and an overly large collection of classes in Java that makes it a poor design that's ... that's... well...(rethink, no comments)Is it new additions that makes something wrong?? NOTE: I am not defending Java, I am(was, cause this' my bus-stop) attacking your criticism!! Because java (standard edition) is so Obese a user will still be learning about java for years....lol. Tell me the language you are done learning such that you are participating in its compiler implementation? ..(that's enviable if there is, pls post the links) I think a Java programmer just uses the classes he needs and he is done!! no external libraries usually needed. I do not think you have to know ALL the classes like C++'s STL and Boost to be a fluent Java programmer. If I had most of the classes I ever need in C++ I wouldn't like it though... To mask this or because of this a certification structure is setup , certification wouldn't be a big deal if the language didnt have so many moving parts!Isn't B.Sc, M.Sc and Ph.D degree made up many moving parts ?Oh and BY THE WAY.. I am not shying away! My Dad is an insanely good critic... so the attitude I put for him when we are discussing and he chips in criticism, I am meting out the same here! ... (i dnt really like critics) ```````````````signing off. :::  ^_^):::: |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by spikesC(m): 2:53pm On Jan 10, 2013 |
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| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by Fayimora(m): 1:14am On Jan 11, 2013 |
Dear Mr Whiz, I was really beginning to like some of your posts but you just messed up, big time. No offence but before making claims on a public forum, do your research. You will NEVER learn if you are not ready to accept that your so-called correct answer can be 101% wrong. "What large software is writing with Vim or Emacs?" <- Seriously? You mentioned Linus. He USES Vi -> Please read https://plus.google.com/+LinusTorvalds/posts/iySKQGtkmtb Matz, the creator of "The Ruby Programming Language" uses EMACS! -> http://www.slideshare.net/yukihiro_matz/how-emacs-changed-my-life Should I go on? Again, please read http://stackoverflow.com/questions/208193/why-should-i-use-an-ide |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by WhiZTiM(m): 2:54am On Jan 11, 2013 |
Fayimora: Dear Mr Whiz,....I wrote "an IDE or a PROJECT MANAGEMENT SOFTWARE".... And I will take your advice on reaffirming public claims before writing, seriously. Timely advice Fayimora!... Thank you. I do appreciate it... Do have a nice weekend sir. |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by pak: 3:43pm On Jan 11, 2013 |
I have it on good authority that JAVA was invented by the illuminati . . . .. |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by Fayimora(m): 7:29pm On Jan 11, 2013 |
@pak LOL you have made my evening! @whiz, please clarify your statement because last I checked, Vim and Emacs are simply text-editors  |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by lordZOUGA(m): 7:35pm On Jan 11, 2013 |
he is now corrected. So, Can you guys go on with enumerating java's disabilities? That part was fun. |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by WhiZTiM(m): 8:52pm On Jan 11, 2013 |
Fayimora: @whiz, please clarify your statement because last I checked, Vim and Emacs are simply text-editorsohhkay... I will clarify that a bit. First of all, I use Vim. @least for Python. Also, I use the term *project management systems* as a generalization for all kinds of Source Code Control Systems, Source Revision systems, auto compilation and build systems... etc... A good IDE usually has access to those in fewer clicks... Also...I mentioned Linus Torvalds on the basis of him creating the famous Git system Secondly, I believe there's hardly anyone that will enjoy Java in Vim or Emacs. ...Which shouldnt be a criterion for slamming a programming language bad. all I was saying is productivity matters in the real world... Whether an IDE, a syntax highlighting text Editor, or a plain text editor..." If I pay you the money, Just get me a robust system well suited for my needs". Thirdly, I read one of the links before. And your reminder made me quickly realize I should never have added that line about who doesn't use an IDE because its unrelated to the topic/notion(am not good at that debates). And if apologies needed, I do apologise for that. . . . We good?? |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by pak: 9:16pm On Jan 11, 2013 |
lordZOUGA: he is now corrected. http://steve-yegge..com/2006/03/execution-in-kingdom-of-nouns.html This particular article gained www notoriety for giving java the KO punch. @mods - you can close this thread after everyone might have read the article |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by spikesC(m): 12:29am On Jan 12, 2013 |
I've really come around to what Perl folks were telling me 8 or 9 years ago: "Dude, not everything is an object." |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by spikesC(m): 12:48am On Jan 12, 2013 |
"Most current tag libraries focus on verbs (actions) and adverbs (parameters) to produce their results, whereas I'd like to see more tag designers working with nouns (the desired result) and adjectives (modifiers). This entails a shift in perspective that may be difficult for many programmers, but it boils down to a very simple directive: focus on the what and hide the how."i couldn't say more about OOP |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by Fayimora(m): 7:30pm On Jan 12, 2013 |
ok Whiz. I guess you were talking out of context without carrying us along. FYI, I write a lot of Java code, mostly Scala now, and I do this comfortably in Vim |
| Re: Bad Languages Require Ides by csharpjava(m): 5:49am On Jan 18, 2013 |
Kennyinusa: You can write a windows GUI in C# with Notepad, this method is for you if you don't like IDEs
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