geez tju,

either you were an english graduate in your former life, you should have been an english graduate, as opposed to a software engineer or you have sworn at some shrine that has said if you don't defend your statement, you will surely die. Give it a break already. It's in Seun's hands now (or yours, if you decide to come up with a forum of your own)

By the way, you made yet another blanket statement (y i am surprised, I have no idea) with respect to me and Bossman - I no sabi am o! I have been reading a few of his posts but that's about it. In fact, I have never even been to Chicago, not to mention the fact that I don't know anyone in Chicago.

Next time, at least ask or say, "generally speaking". Anything less, and you will have to back it up with facts

I agree 100% with Ghenghis.

Without being formal, I see a programmer as someone you give a pseudo code to and they come up with the necessary syntax in some language. That’s the type of work that an entry level graduate or intern would be given. On the other hand, someone with a computer science or an engineering degree might start out doing the same thing as a programmer but will eventually graduate to the type of work that requires thinking. This is where other areas of your education (technical subjects – calculus, physics, signal processing, cryptography etc) start coming into play. The difference that I’m trying to highlight is akin to differences between a technician (2 year technical degree) and an engineer (4+ year degree). Technicians can only go so far career wise (low salary), not because they’re not capable but because he probably won’t be given a chance.

If all you want to be is a programmer, you might be short-changing yourself especially if you’re capable of being more except, of course, you’re using the name "programmer" loosely.

Just to murky the water some more, I have a degree in electrical engineering (took a bunch of SW courses) and I do write software (C, C++, MATLAB) at the system level and I’m neither a programmer nor a SW engineer.

Just to murky the water some more, I have a degree in electrical engineering (took a bunch of SW courses) and I do write software (C, C++, MATLAB) at the system level and I’m neither a programmer nor a SW engineer.

My point exactly!

You don't have to go to school, technically and earn a software engineering degree to be a software engineer. Please note, I say, "technically". In today's world, pple in our discipline are required to stay up-to-date in the latest technologies and to read a wide array of subjects. For example, I am not a DBA, but I read a lot of books on DB design. Does that make me a DBA, even though I don't have a degree/certificate in the field? I think so. I have worked with pple who have no degrees but yet know more than a graduate.

Wallie, I am afraid I don't know what you're saying. You give a programmer pseudo code? If you do that, aren't you in essence solving the problem you are paying the person to come up with? Why bother doing it twice. If the person can't think that far, why hire him in the first place? Are you implying that a programmer doesn't think or a programmer doesn't think enough?

Perhaps, and not to justify, within the Nigerian context, the 2 fields are considered different but where I am, it's just a matter of job title. The work is pretty much the same. As a matter of fact, most pple actually specify the position they are looking for, as opposed to saying "programmer" or "software engineer" as those names are pretty vague ("program what?", "software engineer what?"

Generally speaking: In "Industry", there is no care for distinguishing between the software engineer that is a "programmer" or the "general" software engineer. Often you'll have someone with job title of "programmer" doing a lot more than programming or someone with a job title of "software engineer" who in fact, only does programming. The reason for this inconsistency is that most IT managers (and some technical staff too) in industry have a mediocre understanding of the unified field of Software Engineering and its practices that make their IT systems development and delivery possible. This does not change the fact that Software Engineering has a consistent structure in "Academia".

What needs to be understood here is this:
A programmer is "always" a software engineer whether he is properly educated and/or trained or not. A software engineer is "not always" a programmer. He/She can hold any role in the "Software Engineering" domain that He/She has been trained for.

^The insights to be gained from the above statement are:
[list]
[li]Always view yourself as a software engineer if you're doing any "technical/analytical" software work.[/li]
[li]If you intend on having a lasting career, you want to someday "move on up" from the programmer role. [/li]
[/list]

Peace & Love.

my2cents:

Wallie, I am afraid I don't know what you're saying. You give a programmer pseudo code? If you do that, aren't you in essence solving the problem you are paying the person to come up with? Why bother doing it twice. If the person can't think that far, why hire him in the first place? Are you implying that a programmer doesn't think or a programmer doesn't think enough?

Maybe my field is unique being that it is very technical. For example, this is a type of requirement that will be given to me.

"Expected values of the noise ratio histograms shall be computed by implementing a low pass filter function using an FFT / Inverse FFT." The data you will be processing is complex (real and imaginary).

Someone without a technical degree won't know where to start but I bet if given the pseudo code he will be able to come up with the code.

Also, most senior engineers don't do menial type coding; their time is better spent solving complex problems. You can also think about it as a way to train an inexperienced engineer.

my2cents:

If the person can't think that far, why hire him in the first place? Are you implying that a programmer doesn't think or a programmer doesn't think enough?

You are right, without trying to make a blanket statement; we don't hire people without the minimum degree as an engineer/programmer. You can think of the degree as a bar. A degree doen’t necessarily mean that you're smarter or you can get the job done but it shows, at least at some level, what you're capable of.

I say all of that to say this; you don’t need a degree to write software.

Someone without a technical degree won't know where to start but I bet if given the pseudo code he will be able to come up with the code.

Again, if you give him the pseudocode, why hire the person? Perhaps we are not on the same footing as to what pseudocode is.

I have a technical degree but I wouldn't know where to start with respect to your requirement above. This is where a Business Analyst (BA) comes in. As a developer, to begin with, I am not to get such a vague requirement. A BA helps here in that he/she goes back to the customer, gets clarification, formuala(e), etc so as to ensure that I develop the solution that they need. I have helped develop software that has to do with areas I haven't the slightest clue about and such customers, at the time the product was deployed, didn't have any problems.

I say all of that to say this; you don’t need a degree to write software.

No you don't. As a matter of fact, I will go a step further with respect to why any degree is needed - it probably doesn't show what you are capable of as you could have coasted your way through school but it moreso shows that you have the ability to think. That is why, at least from my experience, I have seen pple with History degrees crank out code better than pple with computer science degrees. The latter gives you an advantage but doesn't necessarily mean you know it all. Also, your degree, from my experience, only gets you that first job. From that point on, it is all about your professional experience.

Guys, for the sake of argument you've veered from the main point ,

Most of what you guys are calling "technical" are things a domain professional is expected to know e.g You'd need an accountant as the technical consultant for accounting software, a biologist in biometrics, an electronic engr in digital signal processing , all these are not necessarily software engineers.

Again, if you give him the pseudocode, why hire the person? Perhaps we are not on the same footing as to what pseudocode is.

You don't need to give the person pseudocode, what of sequence diagrams, entity diagrams, or state diagrams. The systems architect can pass all these on to a programmer to implement, also Business analysis is a SW engineering discipline.

only some time ago software development was considered an art,
anyways the discipline is evolving , and its now the application of of engineering methods to the process of developing software!

Ghengis,

I know we hv veered from the point but I can't sit back and read something that is wrong and be quiet. I don't know it all but the little I know, I like to share. If I don't know something, I don't comment on it. Better yet, if I do comment, I use words like, "probably", "mostly", "in my opinion", "generally speaking", etc. I don't present opinion as fact. Experience maybe, but not opinion. For all we know, tju38 probably (note the word ) posted this to generate some buzz for something he is doing or is about to do. It reminds me of a sort of similar post last year where some Nigerian web developer based in South Africa said Nigerian developers are whack. It took some prodding, but he finally admitted that he was trying to generate some buzz for himself.

I will agree with you on this:

its now the application of of engineering methods to the process of developing software!

but not on this:

Business analysis is a SW engineering discipline.

At least not in the American context. It is part of the software development cycle and process but not a discipline. Most of the people I know who are BAs have an advanced degree in Business Administration (not to say that is what you need to become a BA).

requirements analysis , user stories, use cases these are all part business analysis ,

Ghenghis:

Guys, for the sake of argument you've veered from the main point ,

Most of what you guys are calling "technical" are things a domain professional is expected to know e.g You'd need an accountant as the technical consultant for accounting software, a biologist in biometrics, an electronic engr in digital signal processing , all these are not necessarily software engineers.

You don't need to give the person pseudocode, what of sequence diagrams, entity diagrams, or state diagrams. The systems architect can pass all these on to a programmer to implement, also Business analysis is a SW engineering discipline.

only some time ago software development was considered an art,
anyways the discipline is evolving , and its now the application of of engineering methods to the process of developing software!

Ghenghis demonstrates a superior understanding of the software profession.

my2cents, business analysis (of a software system - which is what this thread is about), is a Software Engineering discipline. One of the most important ones in fact. It's generally known as Requirements Engineering. Why don't you google it and learn something new. It shouldn't hurt your ego.

The problem here is degree of understanding. By being dogmatic, you prevent yourself from acquiring the information that will help you improve your understanding .

Some information on Requirements Engineering:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Requirements_analysis

my2cents:

I have a technical degree but I wouldn't know where to start with respect to your requirement above. This is where a Business Analyst (BA) comes in. As a developer, to begin with, I am not to get such a vague requirement. A BA helps here in that he/she goes back to the customer, gets clarification, formuala(e), etc so as to ensure that I develop the solution that they need.

It might seem that the requirement is vague but it's not, at least to an electrical engineer. A business analyst doesn't even come into the picture at all, you might have better luck with a system engineer/electrical engineer. See Ghenghis quote below.

Ghenghis:

Most of what you guys are calling "technical" are things a domain professional is expected to know e.g You'd need an accountant as the technical consultant for accounting software, a biologist in biometrics, an electronic engr in digital signal processing , all these are not necessarily software engineers.

The bottom line with any degree is that it sets you apart from everybody else. I'll repeat this again, "a degree shows what you're capable of". Your example of coasting through school will be reflective on your GPA, which will be used in conjunction with your degree to "gauge what you're capable of".

tju, if na u, u wd say, I have friends agreeing with me. At last count, I believe it's 3 vs 1. But this isn't a "winner takes all" argument. It's all about reasoning and learning. No ya wa, nothing spoil

Again, u give a blanket statement. It appears you didn't read my post in its entirety. Here it is:

At least not in the American context.

Could a software engineer gather and analyze requirements? Sure. But would that make for the most efficient use of his time? Probably not. A software engineer, generally speaking, can not speak the language of business. For that, you need someone who can and that is where a BA comes in.

In theory, anyone can do anything. However, there are times, when you want pple familiar with a certain aspect of something to do the talking as they know what to say and how to say it. For example, based on real life, the client I worked for wanted ajax on a particular page, based on the Business Requirements. I told them it wasn't feasible, given the amount of information on the page. Maybe it was just me. I am not trained to convince pple but to code, so my explanation fell on deaf ears. I had to get the BA involved who went back and explained to them what I meant and they agreed.

To the client, all they could see is this cool name, "ajax" and how they can make money from it. Anything else, and it would be unacceptable. They don't know (and could care less) about what is feasible and what's not.

For the record, I'm not trying to "win" anything as there is nothing here to win. I am simply trying to ensure that you don't mislead less knowledgable readers in this thread I started with the goal to educate them in the first place.

my2cents:

A software engineer, generally speaking, can not speak the language of business. For that, you need someone who can and that is where a BA comes in.

You have not understood what I'm saying. The software engineer who cannot understand the business simply doesn't understand "business analysis". It doesn't mean that "business/requirements analysis/engineering" is not part of Software Engineering. If you give up on pseudo-scientific "ideas" about what a Software Engineer is, you'll get my point. But I doubt that you will, since your objective isn't to learn anything new but to protect your ego.

my2cents:

At least not in the American context.

Software Engineering was pioneered by Americans and in fact, the Software Engineering Institute (SEI) is an American institution therefore this statement you made is a logical fallacy which renders your whole argument invalid.

No ego bros. I have been wrong many times on this forum and when I am, I always own up to it. After all, no one knows who I am and so I would have nothing to lose if I refused to apologize. Again, I can't sit by and let anyone say what they want to say just because they can. Just telling it like it is. But, your English don dey too big for me

I love to learn but again, not something that is based on emotion. There is nothing "pseudo-scientific" about my "ideas" (ha! another big grammar ) either. There are theories advanced on various ideas everyday, just like you learn stuff in school (which is considered ideal) but never use it cos it doesn't apply in the real world. Just as there is SEI, I bet there are other SE institutions. Come to think of it, last time I checked, there is this certification (the name escapes me so forgive me please) or ranking that companies SE companies strive to attain and I blv only one (maybe more now) company in the whole world, based in India, is at level 1. Does that mean that other companies who aren't at level 1 don't know what they are doing? Again, there is ideal and there is real.

Anyways, as I can see:

1) This is getting nowhere, and
2) We are waaaaay off base with respect to what you posted originally

So I will be the bigger man and agree to disagree.

I think the certification you may be referring to is the CMMI and yes, many organisations are starting to embrace it because they realise that their projects "keep failing" due to mis-application or ignorance of software engineering principles. The journey that the organisation embarks on (when they decide to pursue CMMI certification) enables them to institute software engineering principles properly into their "day-to-day" processes and procedures thereby preventing "project failures". Even if an organisation has only made it to level 3 or 2, the CMMI has been proven to improve the organisation's IT efficiency tremendously.

I never asked you to agree with me, I was POINTING OUT your logical fallacies and your pseudo-scientific opinions about software engineering.

You can be the bigger man if that's what rocks your boat. I am happy simply to have helped some people reading these pages see the workings of their "software world" more clearly.

I never asked you to agree with me, I was POINTING OUT your logical fallacies and your pseudo-scientific opinions about software engineering.

Uhmmm, with respect to these posts, I think you need to check the rock in your eye before checking the speck in mine

You can be the bigger man if that's what rocks your boat.

Rocking my boat? Nope. Getting my bunches in a wad? Definitely

Its called Capability maturity Model ---- If where to give your company a project;
how can they assure me that they can execute it within budget,time and it meets the requires quality (PM)

On a basic level for instance , how much work can developer really do in a week
How much can a team of 10 do ,
When you apply this across an entire organization, the amount of accuracy with which you can answer this questions is the essence of CMM
(there are very few organizations with CMM5).

Could a software engineer gather and analyze requirements? Sure. But would that make for the most efficient use of his time? Probably not. A software engineer, generally speaking, can not speak the language of business. For that, you need someone who can and that is where a BA comes in.

A SW engineer can do requirements gathering, but as an organization/project grows larger you'd need people who do this exclusively.
The business in business analysis is not Business in the normal sense, you can replace Business with Domain , and say Domain analysis
The major function of a business(domain) analyst is asking questions (not Business Administration)

I've done requirements analysis many times, and its a very useful quality for a software developer i.e Understanding the customers intent, this helps u to solve his problem optimally


The direction these discussions are taking is the problem with creating a separate board, SW Engr is a largely academic exercise
Some developers/programmers prefer diving straith into coding etc. while others will theoreticize first (i'm more of the latter)
We need a good mix of both kinds, else no work gets done or the work thats done turns out to be rubbish

my2cents:

Uhmmm, with respect to these posts, I think you need to check the rock in your eye before checking the speck in mine
Rocking my boat? Nope. Getting my bunches in a wad? Definitely

And so he retreats to "ad hominem" attacks lol . Because he really doesn't have anything of value to contribute to this topic.

If the words "ad hominem" are "too big" for you, here's what they mean:

"An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man" consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject."
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I hereby make this solemn pledge to tju:
If ever wiki goes public, I will buy 10,000. Based on the number of times you have quoted the wiki, tju, I figure ad revenue will be up tenfold

Seriously though, anything of value was said in the first few posts of page 1. All we have been doing since then is help pump up Nairaland's google adsense revenue. By the way, I don't know what adsense is. Is it possible for you to post wiki link to its definition?

my2cents:

Seriously though, anything of value was said in the first few posts of page 1.

lol another illogical statement from "Mr. ad hominem". I think most people will agree that Ghengis' elaboration on the CMMI/Capability Maturity Model has "value", for those who were not aware of it beforehand

All your posts on the other hand, have had no value whatsoever.

Feel free to continue with your ad hominems. Alternatively, you could actually contribute something of value.

CMM is useless. I did the PSP (Personal Software Process) course admisitered by CMU .

This whole Software Engineering thing does not have any value in todays business. It is just a way of adding another level of beaurucracy into the process. I mean the PSP course and CMM is the most ridiculus thing i have ever come across .

Personally i think building software should be solely about satisfying what the customer wants . This can only be done by constantly presenting unfinished work to the customer as often as possible to get their approval or disaproval.

A software project is not going to succeed if you have a CMM level 5 or if you have a superior method of gathering sofware metrics for your organization or is it going to succeed if you do not present what you are building to the customer as often as possible.

I have worked and seen projects fail in companies where the these approaches was adopted .

The very best appraoch to software development is the Agile approcah