Does saving your pages with .php extension make you a PHP Programmer or you learnt how to include files make you one ?
I really want to understand who a PHP Programmer is so I can know what criteria to use in sieving the chaffs out from the grains.

If you can write "Hello World" in PHP then you're a PHP programmer.

^^^ I concur. However, does this make you a good PHP programmer? Not at all.

To me, a good (fill in the blank here) programmer is one who knows how to reason and code logically in that particular language. In other words, just because you don't know a particular thing in a language doesn't mean to me that you are bad. We are human after all and are supposed to keep learning till we die. Having said that, there are certain, "gotchas" that you should know about a particular language.

For example, I have been coding in PHP for about 7 years now but it's not on all CVs that I put "PHP programmer". I am more of a JSP person but use PHP on my freelance jobs. Depends on the job application. They say be careful what you ask for. You put too much and next thing you, they are expecting you to code facebook all by yourself. Having coded certain sites, all of which pretty much have the same features (where they don't, I try to make the client understand why they need to have their site function a certain way ) over the years, I have learned to templatize my work. Sure, other than design, 1 or 2 features might be different but all in all, I just copy and paste for all my projects.

^^^That's why being a good php programmer is quite different from being a php programmer. Having a basic knowledge of PHP makes you a programmer but not necessarily a good one or an experienced one.

^^^^ So how would you define one? In other words, if you had the opportunity to run a project or company and wanted to hire top talent, what would you be looking for?

yawa-ti-de:
^^^^ So how would you define one? In other words, if you had the opportunity to run a project or company and wanted to hire top talent, what would you be looking for?

In that case, i'll be looking for a very good php programmer.

I tell people that i'm a java programmer even though i can only do the basic things with it because i've never really focused on it. But i won't put that in my CV because if i do, a lot will be expected from me and i don't want to goof.

According to me a Good PHP Programmer is one who understands the languages, the flaws and also the limitation of what it can and cannot do,and also one who is knowledgeable of the environment it runs, for instance PHP can do much beyond web application, i use it as a Console Application to convert images and attach watermark to it, i also use it to sort some mess on my system, PHP programmer is one who knows PHP well enough to work with it to his satisfaction. but i think a PHP programmer might also refer to those who write functions for PHP using C/C++.

A php programmer is one who can code with the language.
A good php programmer is one who know 50% of the function and libraries and also contribute to the development of the language in one way or the other.

Afam:
You haven't answered my question. Look at it again and give an answer better than, "In that case, i'll be looking for a very good php programmer."

Sure, you will be looking for a good php programmer. I mean, you wouldn't go out to look for the worst of the worst, right. But how do you define, "good"? Talk d koko, make we hear, biko.

yawa-ti-de:
Afam:
You haven't answered my question. Look at it again and give an answer better than, "In that case, i'll be looking for a very good php programmer."

Sure, you will be looking for a good php programmer. I mean, you wouldn't go out to look for the worst of the worst, right. But how do you define, "good"? Talk d koko, make we hear, biko.

Talking that koko is the hardest part of it. I was asked for a website redesign and I asked what language I would be working on and they said PHP. When I peeped into the source code of the online version of the website which was proposed to be a PHP website, I felt so sorry for the designer, no, sorry, PHP Programmer. All I noticed were includes. Over 6 DTD declaration of HTML headers inside just 1 page and all having their different styling s well arising from PHP includes. I connected the Programmer and asked him how competent he was in the Language and he said "very very" that all his websites run on PHP but... He never processes his contact form using a simple PHP mail function. He rather uses a formmail inserted script from a 3rd party processing website. Don't dare have errors in his forms else you'll be redirected to the 3rd website from where you can click away if you like.

We can call him a PHP Programmer also not so? After all he knows how to include or require pages...

I'm yet to different Paul from Barnabas. Until I know who a PHP programmer really is, anyone that designs a web page but has his pages running on a .php extension is a full PHP Programmer. #GBAM! If you say NO, define who a PHP programmer is.

yawa-ti-de:
Afam:
You haven't answered my question. Look at it again and give an answer better than, "In that case, i'll be looking for a very good php programmer."

Sure, you will be looking for a good php programmer. I mean, you wouldn't go out to look for the worst of the worst, right. But how do you define, "good"? Talk d koko, make we hear, biko.

A good designer is someone who knows above average(50%) of the language. Afterall no one knows it all. But as far as the thread is concerned, anybody can can echo "Hello World" is a PHP programmer.

^^^ and how do you determine in, say, a 1-hour interview, if someone knows 50% of a language? What if the person knows 89% of a language yet doesn't understand it such that if they were asked something from the remaining 11%, which constitutes what is important about a language, they fail the particular question? Hopefully you are seeing how tangled up this situation can get. Sorry for punishing you with what may see as an unnecessary question but I do so to make a point. It's like asking if someone is actually smart because they made 100% on a JAMB exam. After all, the person could have memorized everything and anticipated certain questions based on a statistical analysis of past year's questions.

Here is how I would define a "good" programmer of any kind:
One who has coded long enough to be familiar with most of the nuances of a particular language and knows how to present their logic in the most efficient way possible.

By the above, this is what I mean, based on 4 examples, using HTML + CSS:
1) Someone submits a site for review and the front end looks are a killer. I mean everything is in place with the latest efizzy. I then (as I normally do) look at the source code and notice that they are using DIVs for paragraphs and their code isn't indented. I could go on and on. This person is a programmer for sure. After all, his code works. But IMHO, this isn't a good programmer.

2) Let's say you have 6 DIVs on a page, each floated left. Let's further say they are not all of the same width. Each differs by 10px. Here is a sample code:

<div id="one">stuff</div>
<div id="two">stuff</div>
<div id="three">stuff</div>
<div id="four">stuff</div>
<div id="five">stuff</div>
<div id="six">stuff</div>

...and here's the CSS:

div#one { float: left; width: 20px; }
div#two { float: left; width: 60px; }
div#three { float: left; width: 80px; }
...

I would say the person again is a programmer but not a good one. Why? Their CSS isn't modular: They could have, knowing that there will be many floats, made a class called, say, "flL" and assigned that to each DIV. This removes the "float clutter" from each declaration in the CSS and allows the person to use the "flL" class multiple times. In addition to being more modular, the CSS file is lighter and on a large site, the added HTML code is made up for by the bandwidth saved from this single class. Besides, should I decide to float right tomorrow for one DIV, all I have to do is remove the class declaration from one DIV and not have to worry about how to deal with it in the CSS. Sometimes, we find ourselves having to add additional unnecessary and specific CSS to override a feature because we are afraid of what touching a particular CSS code block would do, thus leading to CSS code bloat

3) One thing that gets even some experienced front end developers it the concept of the Box Model and simple difference b/w say, visibility: visible vs. display: none and when to use them. A simple failure of this question or how you answer it, if I were to ask you this, tells me your level of experience.

4) Let's take PHP:
You have a page that is making a database call. You write the slickest PHP/MySQL code to get and display data from your tables but you forget to do a db_close() at the end of your code. Sure you are a programmer but are you a good one?

I have more but will stop here as I hope and trust you get where I am going.

yawa-ti-de:
^^^ and how do you determine in, say, a 1-hour interview, if someone knows 50% of a language? What if the person knows 89% of a language yet doesn't understand it such that if they were asked something from the remaining 11%, which constitutes what is important about a language, they fail the particular question? Hopefully you are seeing how tangled up this situation can get. Sorry for punishing you with what may see as an unnecessary question but I do so to make a point. It's like asking if someone is actually smart because they made 100% on a JAMB exam. After all, the person could have memorized everything and anticipated certain questions based on a statistical analysis of past year's questions.

An interview is not sufficient in determining one's prowess in a particular language. That's why there are portfolios that can tell the story better. I never said someone who memorized 50% of java is a programmer. There has to be some proof to this effect by either coding "Hello World" or more more complex application.

yawa-ti-de:

Here is how I would define a "good" programmer of any kind:
One who has coded long enough to be familiar with most of the nuances of a particular language and knows how to present their logic in the most efficient way possible.

By the above, this is what I mean, based on 4 examples, using HTML + CSS:
1) Someone submits a site for review and the front end looks are a killer. I mean everything is in place with the latest efizzy. I then (as I normally do) look at the source code and notice that they are using DIVs for paragraphs and their code isn't indented. I could go on and on. This person is a programmer for sure. After all, his code works. But IMHO, this isn't a good programmer.

2) Let's say you have 6 DIVs on a page, each floated left. Let's further say they are not all of the same width. Each differs by 10px. Here is a sample code:


...and here's the CSS:


I would say the person again is a programmer but not a good one. Why? Their CSS isn't modular: They could have, knowing that there will be many floats, made a class called, say, "flL" and assigned that to each DIV. This removes the "float clutter" from each declaration in the CSS and allows the person to use the "flL" class multiple times. In addition to being more modular, the CSS file is lighter and on a large site, the added HTML code is made up for by the bandwidth saved from this single class. Besides, should I decide to float right tomorrow for one DIV, all I have to do is remove the class declaration from one DIV and not have to worry about how to deal with it in the CSS. Sometimes, we find ourselves having to add additional unnecessary and specific CSS to override a feature because we are afraid of what touching a particular CSS code block would do, thus leading to CSS code bloat

3) One thing that gets even some experienced front end developers it the concept of the Box Model and simple difference b/w say, visibility: visible vs. display: none and when to use them. A simple failure of this question or how you answer it, if I were to ask you this, tells me your level of experience.

4) Let's take PHP:
You have a page that is making a database call. You write the slickest PHP/MySQL code to get and display data from your tables but you forget to do a db_close() at the end of your code. Sure you are a programmer but are you a good one?

I have more but will stop here as I hope and trust you get where I am going.

You seem to be focused on who a good programmer is. Which is not the same thing as being a programmer. There are good programmers, average programmers and downright bad programmers but all of them are programmer nonetheless.

What makes a good programmer?

guru01: What makes a good programmer?

Even this one is relative.

yawa-ti-de:
^^^ and how do you determine in, say, a 1-hour interview, if someone knows 50% of a language? What if the person knows 89% of a language yet doesn't understand it such that if they were asked something from the remaining 11%, which constitutes what is important about a language, they fail the particular question? Hopefully you are seeing how tangled up this situation can get. Sorry for punishing you with what may see as an unnecessary question but I do so to make a point. It's like asking if someone is actually smart because they made 100% on a JAMB exam. After all, the person could have memorized everything and anticipated certain questions based on a statistical analysis of past year's questions.

Here is how I would define a "good" programmer of any kind:
One who has coded long enough to be familiar with most of the nuances of a particular language and knows how to present their logic in the most efficient way possible.

By the above, this is what I mean, based on 4 examples, using HTML + CSS:
1) Someone submits a site for review and the front end looks are a killer. I mean everything is in place with the latest efizzy. I then (as I normally do) look at the source code and notice that they are using DIVs for paragraphs and their code isn't indented. I could go on and on. This person is a programmer for sure. After all, his code works. But IMHO, this isn't a good programmer.

2) Let's say you have 6 DIVs on a page, each floated left. Let's further say they are not all of the same width. Each differs by 10px. Here is a sample code:


...and here's the CSS:


I would say the person again is a programmer but not a good one. Why? Their CSS isn't modular: They could have, knowing that there will be many floats, made a class called, say, "flL" and assigned that to each DIV. This removes the "float clutter" from each declaration in the CSS and allows the person to use the "flL" class multiple times. In addition to being more modular, the CSS file is lighter and on a large site, the added HTML code is made up for by the bandwidth saved from this single class. Besides, should I decide to float right tomorrow for one DIV, all I have to do is remove the class declaration from one DIV and not have to worry about how to deal with it in the CSS. Sometimes, we find ourselves having to add additional unnecessary and specific CSS to override a feature because we are afraid of what touching a particular CSS code block would do, thus leading to CSS code bloat

3) One thing that gets even some experienced front end developers it the concept of the Box Model and simple difference b/w say, visibility: visible vs. display: none and when to use them. A simple failure of this question or how you answer it, if I were to ask you this, tells me your level of experience.

4) Let's take PHP:
You have a page that is making a database call. You write the slickest PHP/MySQL code to get and display data from your tables but you forget to do a db_close() at the end of your code. Sure you are a programmer but are you a good one?

I have more but will stop here as I hope and trust you get where I am going.

You're on point! I love the CSS insight you gave because many don't know that CSS OOP really helps. Rather than including re-usable styles into an ID styling, you create a re-usable class and that solves your issue. A lot of repeated lines of codes are reduced making for even more faster loading of a web page resources.

A fast one for those interested to get this at a snap.
###visibility: visible vs. display: none
These two style properties do two different things.

visibility: hidden hides the element, but it still takes up space in the layout. It tells the browser: calculate all the width/height/position of this element and his children, but do not paint it.

display: none removes the element completely from the document. It does not take up any space, even though the HTML for it is still in the source code. It tells the browser: completely ignore this element and all his children, don't waste time with it.

@Yawa-ti-de Thanks for your contributions and insights.
Where are the many other programmers in the board that code on PHP, why aren't they talking or have they ignored the thread because it in one way or the other is pointing fingers at them as b*d programmers or n* programmers in the first place

I can write <?php ?> ! Am i not a programmer?

1) An interview is very sufficient, IMHO, to determine how good you are. See, if I interview you, I will not ask "standard" questions. I will ask you questions as it relates to my environment, which you have never coded in. If you can "code blind" then that tells me you are good.

2) Why not dump the "programmer" and go str8 to "good programmer"? I mean, I need a job done and don't want a programmer because he knows how to code, "hello world"

Why do people run away from topics like this? Is that they can't defend their profession or they fear one or two questions may arise and they are not able to respond to them?

*omni:
Why do people run away from topics like this? Is that they can't defend their profession or they fear one or two questions may arise and they are not able to respond to them?

IMHO, i take it as an endless argument.
I've been following it actually

@spikes_C Nothing do you but just drop your own argument and it surely would be helping someone out there unknown to you