nuorlah:

It is obvious you did not understand what I said. You can't eat pork and say bismillah. I mean once the others are met, the bismillah part is simple.

And pork can even be eaten if there is no means of halal food nearby.

If u live where no one cares about your halal rules, would you not eat ever and get malnourished?

Islam is simpler than you are making it seem

i. There are always halal options, there are only a few things that are not halal... Malnutrition does not come up here at all....

ii. No, Pork can only be eaten when you are at a state of ' eat or die'... When you are forced by necessity... Not when you are hungry and there is pork... It is only in extreme conditions.

iii. Chicken and meat is only allowed from the people of the book, not just anybody. So, saying bismillah and eating does not suffice.

Islam is simple and the laws are not difficult. There are halal alternatives for everything. But to claim that you can eat by just saying bismillah is not an accurate position.

nuorlah: And do the people of the book say bismillah before the slaughter @tbaba?

I havent seen d video but that some people in it have some opinion doesnt make it right. Do you mind summarising what the video is about?

The jews have rules on the slaughter of meat according to the sharia of Musa (alayhi salam). Their meat is halal for us.... We have no problem with that.

I would honestly prefer if you guys could watch it...

They both agreed that only meat slaughtered in the halal way should be eaten, There is no 'bismillah rule'.

why?

i. You are sure, the animal was not dead before slaugther.

ii. You are sure, the animal was not killed by any other means.

iii. The name of Allah was pronounced over it.

e.tc

Eating an animal that was dead before slaughter is also prohibited just like pork is, so to assume that saying Bismillah and eating would suffice does not work.

There was no disagreement there..

The point of disagreement between the two arose with chicken.

But even then the position of halal slaughter was far stronger because you are making too many assumptions by eating frozen chicken.

It is not difficult getting 'halal' meat in Lagos markets, many of the people from the abbatoirs are muslim and should slaughter in the proper way... We need to reach the kind of maturity where we are conscious of these things.

Like i said earlier, the scholars need to look at this thoroughly.

You ve written a lot, thank you but they don't address my point. So I will try and make myself clear.

I. Of course every Muslim would have to try their best to eat the halal way. And d Muslim leaders should already be doing something about it and If they don't the younger generation can just do it rather than always expecting others start what anybody could have done.

2. About eating the food of the christians for example,do they say bismillah b4 killing?- this is the question I was trying to ask.

3. Majority of the christians of today dont even know what their religion says of this thing and Allah already permits us to eat their food. Would we not in case they dont say bismillah? Or are we to ask how it was preparef before eating it. And now I am not talking of pork but chicken or beaf.

4. The prophet(S.A.W) as inferred from his statements would go for the easier when with an option. There is also d rule of yes versus no(as I call it that) and is applied for example whenyou perform ablution for maghrib and at Ishai you are not sure if you farted. You are to make a decision based on what you were sure of. If you were sure you performed at maghrib,that is d yes and nit sure if you farted it is d no. The Yes has it and you are good to go. So u go ahead and have your salat without needing to perform ablution. This is what I mean by Islam being simple!

Now, applying this I cld just assume every hausa man knows how to kill d halal way? and mere seeing my mai suya as looking aboki ish,I can just decide to buy from him without realising he is a Joshua,a northern christian or bought his meat as he is only a retailer from someone else who got it from someone else who was a Joshua. Eventually I do not know and then I could simply say bismillah or continue to be wary forever of a Joshua lurking somewhere killing all d beef or chicken that I may want to buy.

Intention matters and I cld just hope that a Musa did the killing while saying my bismillah.

4. When I mentioned bismillah as being the least of all,I was referring to the other rules that determine the halal or the haram. They include that you don't eat certain carnivores. It is a bit elaborate and I only hope that I can open a thread sometime for the other rulings.

But despite that you wouldnt eat pork from the people of the book,the other kinds of meat(halal),you can eat from them. Doesnt this say something about the bismillah part?

Deleted, I am doing a little research so i can give a better answer Insha Allah

I wasn't referring to just you with the first statement. It is general that people expect others to do the job not realising each person to his good deeds ni.

I think what I was making clear,we both agree on now.

I hope more can be said on what constitutes haram and what not, meatwise

These answers were given by Sheikh Yasir Qadhi. Please note the answers given for the christian argument. particularly as it concerns the issue of tasmiya (bismillah)

Kosher- Jewish term for halal
halakha - Jewish term for Sharia

Q: as-salaamu alaykum wa baarakallahu feek! Very beneficial summary, masha’Allah.
I had a question about the criteria for eating meat slaughtered by Christians. What is required for their meat to be halal for Muslims to eat?
*The reason I ask is because I would ideally like to eat grass-fed meat (i.e. the cow was raised to live the way Allah created it to- roaming freely and eating grass) but unfortunately there aren’t any convenient dhabihah & grass-fed beef options available. So if I wanted to buy grass-fed beef from a Christian meat supplier, what procedures would they have to follow for the meat to be halal?
Jazaakallahu khayran!

A: Salam
Ask them to say ‘In the name of God’ or any equivalent as they slaughter the animal by cutting its neck, and it will be halal for you.

Q: Salaam alaykum Shaykh Yasir,
Jzk for providing us with this informative paper, was a very good read.
I realize that the followers of each of the madhabs hold their own criteria for the requirements of proper slaughter, but isn’t a bit much to superimpose madhab-based shar’i requirements on the halakhic requirements?
For example, it was noted in the paper that a tasmiya is not required except for the first animal. The hanafi position rejects this outright as was mentioned, and as I understand it, machine slaughter with one tasmiya is permitted by some using the analogy of hunting (eg one arrow killing two animals), but intentionally leaving the tasmiya if one has 10 animals, slaughters one by hand with tasmiya, and leaves it while slaughtering 9 more by hand is not a position, as I understand it, is not a position. I believe the hanafis take the position that one swipe with a knife that kills two animals (if that’s possible) with one tasmiya is the proper analogy to hunting.
Finally, we had previously discussed that the slaughter performed by Christians was restricted to the requirements of halakhic law (though we hadn’t discussed the details), but it seems Christians violate the first rule, which is that the shochet is jewish. What are your thoughts on meat slaughtered by Christians in light of the halakhic requirements?
Is the christian who neglects the blessing also considered fī ḥukm al-nāsī like the shochet who neglects this?
Siraaj

A: Salam
Actually it is not clear if there is a ‘standard’ position on one-basmala per animal. There are references to both opinions in classical texts but this is a very rarely discussed issue (to the best of my knowledge).
Christians of the Pauline tradition (which basically means 100 % of Christians of our times, unlike in the first 4 centuries of Christianity) do not really have detailed laws, hence it is moot to quote what they do or don’t do. The ancient ‘Jewish Christians’ and even some strands of Arius’s and other early theologians do have halakhic laws and from our standpoint would be the true Christians more faithful to the teachings of Jesus himself.

Q: It appears the paper indirectly claims that if Christians of any tradition neglected the basmala, it may not be the most virtuous slaughter in the world, but that they would not be in violation of old testament / halakhic law from this perspective, irrespective of intention.
If they are following their own law correctly, then I again ask if it makes sense to attempt to restrict halakhic law / christian law by shari’ah standards as it relates to the basmala and other spiritual ritual requirements?

A: We also annul the Christian permissibility of pork with the Shari’a prohibition of pork.
If we were to take the verse ‘at face value’ (and no one actually does), we should allow: 1) animals that have been beaten or electrocuted to death by Christians, 2) animals that Christians eat but we don’t, such as pork and alligators .
It makes complete logical and textual sense to limit the practice of Christians and Jews to what the Shari’a says if we wish to make any meat permissible, as that is consistent and universal. And it just so happens (not coincidentally, I add) that all of the conditions of the Shari’a are met in the halakha.
Bottom line: it is inconsistent to take the verse at ‘partial value’ and allow Christians to leave the tasmiyya but then not allow them to slaughter the animal any way they choose.
Lastly, Ibn al-Qayyim writes that when Allah allowed us their meat, “…He allowed us in accordance to what He Himself allowed them, and not what they allowed or permitted for themselves.”


Q: Assalaamu Alaikum,
Would you also be able to clarify the hadith of A’isha, mentioned in Sahih Bukhari:
O Messenger of Allaah, some people bring meat to us, and we do not know whether they mentioned the name of Allaah over it or not. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Mention the name of Allaah over it and eat.
How do you reconcile this with the opinion of saying the tasmiya over every animal at the time of slaughter? If you hold the opinion that saying the tasmiya over every animal is a requirement, than the meat of the Jews would not be permissible for you. But then the aforementioned hadith seems to imply that (regardless of whether or not the tasmiyah is said) you can still eat that meat. . . I’m a bit confused.

A: Salam
I plan to write a longer piece on the issue of the tasmiyya. In my many conversations with people (and also students of knowledge), it appears that few have actually taken the time to see the quantity and explicitness of these evidence. In fact Ibn Taymiyya writes, “The evidences that made the tasmiyya a necessary requirement for a slaughter are more clear than the evidences that require one to recite the Fatiha in the prayer.”
And this hadith that you have mentioned is one such example. The hadith, as explicitly mentioned in Sahih al-Bukhari, was asked by a group of senior Sahaba when a group of new Muslim converts would send meat to them. They were concerned that the meat might not have been slaughtered properly because these were new Muslims who might not know the Shari’ rulings. So they were told that they should just mention it and eat it.
Commentators mention that this hadith is one of the most explicit evidences that the tasmiyya is in fact wajib. This is because the Companions were so concerned that they had to ask the Prophet (SAW) whether they could eat or not – they realized that the tasmiyya is a ‘make or break’ factor. And the response was that they should basically assume the best of a Muslim, and that they didn’t have to physically see with their own eyes whether it was done or not. This hadith, as Ibn Hajr writes, is a foundational premise for the fact that one should assume the best of all Muslims. It has NOTHING to do with the fact that tasmiyya is not obligatory – if anything it actually shows it IS obligatory, or else the response should have been, “Who cares if they said it or not?”
Also this hadith is in the context of new Muslims, not converts.
Lastly, this hadith can be used when the tasmiyya is unknown and the basic assumption is that the slaughterer would have said it. It cannot be extrapolated to when one knows for a fact that the tasmiyya was not mentioned, which is the case of the meat available in the Western world.
This hadith is one of at least a dozen that explicitly mention the necessity of verbalizing the tasmiyya. I hope to translate Ibn Taymiyya’s treatise on this issue which is one of the most comprehensive that I have ever read.


Q: Great article! I am an observant Jew and you really articulate our laws nicely. I have often wondered what is Islam’s stance on food cooked by idol worshipers? In Jewish law if such food is prepared (even in an entirely kosher manner) by an idolater it is forbidden to eat does Islam have the same ruling?

A:In Islam it is irrelevant who cooks the food (as long as its a trustworthy person who won’t poison you!!) – what’s relevant is who sacrifices the animal. Only a believer in God (a Muslim, Christian or Jew) is allowed to sacrifice.

Q: If food is cooked with alcohol, some say the alcohol evaporates and is not an issue … please give some clarification about this as many restaurants contain alcohol in their dishes.

A: This is a myth – most of the alcohol remains. As such, any food in which wine has been added for flavor is not allowed for Muslims to consume.

Q: Assalamy alaykum, so even when there is option of halal meat are we allowed to eat kosher?

A: Yes. Kosher *is* halal

http://muslimmatters.org/2012/06/22/is-kosher-meat-%E1%B8%A5alal-a-comparison-of-the-halakhic-and-shar%CA%BFi-requirements-for-animal-slaughter/

This shaikh is quite evasive. I get the part of Aisha's hadith well and it still bothers on thinking the best and assuming the best while saying bismillah. We are in that state in Nigeria though. In the SW majority of the men in abbatoirs are Muslims and d 'alfas' as believed do d butchering. In the north,everyone is expected to know.

The problem lies in when you are eating from a christian. I doubt that you can do much or when you attend festivities.
You simply wouldnt eat meat? Of any kind.

I still want to know if the jews say bismillah or anything like that or the christians. What do their books say?

It is clear now,

Like i said earlier, the general principle is that you can eat from a christian or a Jew without asking questions but If you know that the animal was killed in a wrong way then you can't eat. It is not that complex.

Kosher food is halal... Check the link. There is a detailed conversation on kosher food... There are many similarities , not surprisingly.

If a muslim serves you food, you eat without asking questions... we assume the best of muslims....

My question is centered mainly on buying frozen chicken and eating chicken from eateries. Since most of the meat come from abbatoirs run by muslims, we assume the best of muslims.

We should get a real life sheikh on NL...

First, the similarities. Jewish law and Islamic law both require that:

1) The animal must be alive when it is slaughtered (hence stunning or other procedures to render the animal unconscious should be avoided).

2) The animal must be killed with a sharp knife (hence, a blow to the head would render the animal treif and ḥarām).

3) The knife must cut the neck arteries of the animal: in particular, the trachea, esophagus, cartiod arteries and jugular veins should be cut, while leaving the spinal cord intact.

4) The blood must be drained out.

5) There must be minimal harm to the animal – a painless and quick slaughter is required.

All of these are points of agreement between Jewish and Islamic law.

The Jews say:

“Blessed are you , Adonai [G-d], our G-d, Lord of the World, Who Sanctified us through His Commandments and instructed us concerning proper animal slaughter”

Before slaughter! Since they praise God before slaughter, their food is halal on us.

Some christians in the past used to say bismillah before slaughter:

In the Syriac-language Nomocanon of Barhebraeus (d. 1286), a Christian butcher is instructed to recite the phrase ba-shma d'elaha haya, “In the name of the living God.” Gregorius Barhebraeus, Nomocanon, ed. Paul Bedjan (Paris: Harrassowitz, 1898); taken from Freidenreich (cit.)

Sheikh yasir Qadhi has the position that the blessing before slaughter is necessary. This makes all jewish food halal but not all christian food unless the person kills in the name of God.


Other Scholars just allow you to eat from the homes of Jews and christians without that requirement.

Follow the view of the one you trust. In SW Nigeria, it is relatively easy since the meat is slaughtered by muslims for the most part.

I have no problems with any the positions above...

I already highlighted my issues.

Thank you for your time.

We can have an halal agency or board in Nigeria to certify the food we eat. But it has to start with educating everyone on d need to. It could drive commercials for people who adhere and all food agencies would have to conform knowing d over 75 million Muslims of Nigeria will only eat food certified by the agency.

Proceeds can go into da'wah or charity.

Exactly,

You hit the nail on the head... Particularly for packaged food...

Thank you too

Salam

tbaba1234:


Actually, no..

As a muslim, you should only eat halal or kosher. I.e slaughtered in the muslim way or the jewish way.

Christians today have abandoned any rule and would most likely slaugther in Jesus name. This is not acceptable for consumption.

One has to be sure of where they buy meat so that they can be sure it is halal. I understand that the abbatoirs are run by muslims but do they follow the rules of slaughter?

Chicken is more dicey because there are many poultry farms and not all are run by muslims. In 9ja, I only eat chicken slaughtered in my home by me or anyone in the home.

TANX for the clarification.

We can have an halal agency or board in Nigeria to certify the food we eat

I'm very sure there already is one, possibly many.


I think its rather disrespectful to assume the muslims in nigeria do not know what they're doing, when it comes to things like these. Your travelling abroad doesnt necessarily mean you now know better than them.


there are other areas which need to be addressed when we are talking about the nigerian situation, which i personally would consider more urgent.

^That is not my intention at all... I apologize if i came across that way. I was just saying that many are not careful about this laws, it is just an observation.

It is not something we think about.

tbaba1234:


Now let's examine it:

Now the major contention here is what is the food of the 'people of the book"?

For me, i can eat at a kosher restaurant because i understand, they slaughter their animals according to their book... It is not enough to assume that the animal is food from the people of the book...

That is the bone of contention... With all due respect, Dr. Qardawi (from saudi Arabia) view does not take into contention what goes into meat production in the US. Many of the things, that go meat production are not halal to begin with... That is what yasir Qadhi (an american) highlighted in the video.

I think the really knowledgeable scholars in the south westo have to discuss and deliver a clear view on this issue.

Bros. Dr. Yusuf Al Qardawi is from Egypt.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_al-Qaradawi

Correction noted, thanks

But the point is still valid...

@ Mac

Off topic : When is your nikkah coming?

tbaba1234: @ Mac

Off topic : When is your nikkah coming?

Wow... I didn't see that coming. Whenever I am destined to have it now.

I have not seen anybody that I would want to marry that would want to marry me back. It is a big deal to me and I can't just mix with anybody. I have had a few interesting experiences.

That is the summary.

You can respond on the singles thread.

tpia@:



I'm very sure there already is one, possibly many.


I think its rather disrespectful to assume the muslims in nigeria do not know what they're doing, when it comes to things like these. Your travelling abroad doesnt necessarily mean you now know better than them.


there are other areas which need to be addressed when we are talking about the nigerian situation, which i personally would consider more urgent.

Can you name them and their location?

No i cant.

What i do know is the nigerian meat market is controlled by muslims.

So, should one assume they are following no guidelines in this area?

tbaba1234: @ Mac

Off topic : When is your nikkah coming?

Karo o jiire should be on the appropriate thread, imo.

Its getting very annoying the way some folks are derailing threads with claims which concern nobody.

If you feel your partner should not be posting on nl, then you should both get the heck out of here, just saying, not referring to you in particular.

^ sorry o!!

good for them. while i only make my food @ home with halal meat bought @ the various muslim store in my area i don't stop myself from eating meat(beef chicken) when i am outside cause it's not halal. i just thought as long its not pork i am ready to go. i can tell u majority of the people where i come from don't make any deal about it. my pakis and indian friends on the other hand u see someone who does not observe salat but he only eats halal. now days i do try to eat fish only though when i have to eat ouside

@tbaba,you are ignorant on southwest issue,all meat in souhtwest are slaughtered by muslims alapata in various abbatiors immediately the animals arrive,you can never find a christian working there,its business for muslims,you can only find very few christians on the butchering time, i mean very few christians,even in the east,south south, you only find the mallams slaughtering not Igbo men,except they slaughter it privately in their own homes,i hope you ow know all meat in markets of nigeria are halal .

But that is what i said about the south west>> I don't know much about the SE and south south.

What about poultry? Can you say the same?

Maybe you should focus on poultry in the north, or dont they eat any?

even old school maggi star is halal,written boldly on it,so is meat that is not halal.pls verify before saying things.

Interesting read peeps. I'm learning!

And noting the word coinages too: halalness, halally, halalful, halality. . .