striktlymi:

Homology assumes common ancestry...though the quantitative evidence for a common ancestry cannot be overlooked but this still is not conclusive. At best, its just another scientific theory which we are still working on. Homology in itself is a fact but its link to evolution is yet to be proven as a scientific fact.

Embryological similarities and genetic analysis confirms homology as fact. If you do not accept scientific evidence, what evidence would you possibly accept? Which makes it seem like even if we were to find all fossils, which is virtually impossible, you wont still drop your myths.

ooman:

That is if you will tell me why a creator would want to make humans he made in his image look like an animal, or why he fused two animal chromosomes to make his own children.

You have forgotten God created the animals as well. Even we human beings are physically animals albeit higher animals so no qualms if the creator should decide to create more than one specie in his image. But only humans were created in his likeness

ooman:

Embryological similarities and genetic analysis confirms homology as fact. If you do not accept scientific evidence, what evidence would you possibly accept? Which makes it seem like even if we were to find all fossils, which is virtually impossible, you wont still drop your myths.

Mate, you are wasting your time with him. Hardcore believers will always find ways to defend their belief no matter what. Just read your dialogue with him so far and he seems to evade good argument even when slapped in the face with it. He's good lol (in a bad way)

When a guy says "at best it is just another theory", I stop talking to them , Cos they are deeply dishonest. The earth rotating around our sun is a theory too but u never hear them say "that's just a theory"

Pastor Kun:

You have forgotten God created the animals as well. Even we human beings are physically animals albeit higher animals so no qualms if the creator should decide to create more than one specie in his image. But only humans were created in his likeness

I'll wait for your explanation when Curiosity find fossils on mars. So far so good they've got all the elements to support life, not too long now.

I guess you have a few months from now to prepare your argument that your creator also created other life forms away from here and forgot to tell us about it

Pastor Kun:

You have forgotten God created the animals as well. Even we human beings are physically animals albeit higher animals so no qualms if the creator should decide to create more than one specie in his image. But only humans were created in his likeness

Let me leave you with your very own Solomon in Eccl. 3v19-22. For humans and animals both breathe same air and both die. So people have no real advantage over animals. How meaningless. Both go to the same place-dust from which they came and to which they must return. For who can prove that the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward into the earth? So I saw that there is nothing better for people than to be happy in their work. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE HERE! NO ONE WILL BRING THEM BACK FROM DEATH TO ENJOY LIFE IN THE FUTURE-NIV.

Now ooman, for simplicity sake, let's assume that sacred scriptures is as literal as it gets...

ooman:
Your opinion does not agree with the bible. According to the bible, species are immutable, never changing. The bible says that each animal must reproduce according to its kind. No room given for change over time. Except if you are now a deist?

What you suggest up there is quite different from what is written in sacred scriptures.

ooman:

Gen 1v11, v12, v25. Since all animals are created from scratch, why should they change? That is the philosophical question here.

Genesis 1:11-12
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:25

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

The above scriptural backing supports some of the theories we have been talking about. 'Kind' can mean a group of people or things with similar characteristics which explains homology and the similarities that exists amongst some specie. Note that the command God gave never said anything about species being immutable...at best what you can claim is that the scriptural passage is silent on the matter.

It is quite fundamental that every specie makes a vigorous attempt to reproduce its kind and this is in line with the command of God...scriptures however did not explicitly say that there is no room for change...this is your own interpretation at best.

Area_boy:

I'll wait for your explanation when Curiosity find fossils on mars. So far so good they've got all the elements to support life, not too long now.

I guess you have a few months from now to prepare your argument that your creator also created other life forms away from here and forgot to tell us about it

You don't need to wait a few months, i can already tell you upfront that the creator created the universe and everything in it. And yes i do believe there is a very high probability that life forms exists in distant planets and this life forms if they exist were also created by the creator. And mind you the creator does not owe you an explanation on if or why he created life forms on other planets.

ooman:

Embryological similarities and genetic analysis confirms homology as fact. If you do not accept scientific evidence, what evidence would you possibly accept? Which makes it seem like even if we were to find all fossils, which is virtually impossible, you wont still drop your myths.

I never suggested that homology is not fact!

striktlymi:

I never suggested that homology is not fact!

so why did you reject it?

ooman:

That is if you will tell me why a creator would want to make humans he made in his image look like an animal, or why he fused two animal chromosomes to make his own children.

How did I miss this...

Note that when God said he created man in his image and likeness, this should not be taken literally...

God is not human and he does not have physical attributes...

It is my belief that we only resemble God in our spirit as God himself is a spirit...the only semblance we have of God is the life given breath he was generous to have shared with us. No animal share this trait with humans.

striktlymi: Now ooman, for simplicity sake, let's assume that sacred scriptures is as literal as it gets...



What you suggest up there is quite different from what is written in sacred scriptures.




Genesis 1:11-12
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

Genesis 1:25

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

The above scriptural backing supports some of the theories we have been talking about. 'Kind' can mean a group of people or things with similar characteristics which explains homology and the similarities that exists amongst some specie. Note that the command God gave never said anything about species being immutable...at best what you can claim is that the scriptural passage is silent on the matter.

It is quite fundamental that every specie makes a vigorous attempt to reproduce its kind and this is in line with the command of God...scriptures however did not explicitly say that there is no room for change...this is your own interpretation at best.

Once again, the philosophical question is this: Why should animals change if they are built from scratch? pls answer that!

ooman:

so why did you reject it?

I did not reject homology...

striktlymi:

Homology assumes[b] common ancestry[/b]...though the quantitative evidence for a common ancestry cannot be overlooked but this still is not conclusive. At best, its just another scientific theory which we are still working on. Homology in itself is a fact but its link to evolution is yet to be proven as a scientific fact.

striktlymi:

How did I miss this...

Note that when God said he created man in his image and likeness, this should not be taken literally...

God is not human and he does not have physical attributes...

Since humans are the only animal that are intelligent, intelligence, as believed by most theists, is one of the attribute God shares with man, so how dare you say the bold

striktlymi: It is my belief that we only resemble God in our spirit as God himself is a spirit...the only semblance we have of God is the life given breath he was generous to have shared with us. No animal share this trait with humans.

are you saying that animals are alive by a different mechanism, or in your own view, only humans have "life"?

striktlymi:

I did not reject homology...

yea, exactly, why reject its link to evolution since it doesnt make sense to attribute it to a creator?

Pastor Kun:

You don't need to wait a few months, i can already tell you upfront that the creator created the universe and everything in it. And yes i do believe there is a very high probability that life forms exists in distant planets and this life forms if they exist were also created by the creator. And mind you the creator does not owe you an explanation on if or why he created life forms on other planets.

so we dont owe him worship!

ooman:

Once again, the philosophical question is this: Why should animals change if they are built from scratch? pls answer that!

'Building' something from scratch does not mean that the creator did not include this innate ability to 'change' when it is needed. God built man to be 'self sustaining' and the ability for man to adapt to changing situations is part of this in-built mechanism.

striktlymi:

'Building' something from scratch does not mean that the creator did not include this innate ability to 'change' when it is needed. God built man to be 'self sustaining' and the ability for man to adapt to changing situations is part of this in-built mechanism.

Then the creator is not perfect!! If there must be changes to his creations to fit unpredictable future changes, then the creator is not omniscient, or at least does not care about the future of man on earth!! so he doesnt put future changes into consideration in his designs!!

ooman:

Since humans are the only animal that are intelligent, intelligence, as believed by most theists, is one of the attribute God shares with man, so how dare you say the bold

Can you please address me and stop bringing my brethren into this...focus on what I say and not what 'they said'...Intelligence cannot be attributed to just humans...apes are very intelligent too so if someone comes to say that we resemble God because of just intelligence then they must be mistaken. The spirit is the link humans have with God which no other animal shares.

ooman:
are you saying that animals are alive by a different mechanism, or in your own view, only humans have "life"?

It would be silly for me to say that only humans have life.

striktlymi:

Can you please address me and stop bringing my brethren into this...focus on what I say and not what 'they said'...Intelligence cannot be attributed to just humans...apes are very intelligent too so if someone comes to say that we resemble God because of just intelligence then they must be mistaken. The spirit is the link humans have with God which no other animal shares.
It would be silly for me to say that only humans have life.

Well then, i will have to quote the bible once again, same verse i quoted above for pastorkun :

ooman: [size=15pt]Let me leave you with your very own Solomon in Eccl. 3v19-22. For humans and animals both breathe same air and both die. So people have no real advantage over animals. How meaningless. Both go to the same place-dust from which they came and to which they must return. For who can prove that the human spirit goes upward and the spirit of animals goes downward into the earth? So I saw that there is nothing better for people than to be happy in their work. THAT IS WHY THEY ARE HERE! NO ONE WILL BRING THEM BACK FROM DEATH TO ENJOY LIFE IN THE FUTURE-NIV.[/size]

there is no real advantage over animals. "Spirit link" is a myth!!

ooman:

yea, exactly, why reject its link to evolution since it doesnt make sense to attribute it to a creator?

I am beginning to suspect that you want this conversation to turn 'left' by misinterpreting my words.

I never rejected the link of homology to evolution...Remember that I also accept some aspect of evolution (at least those aspects that are purely scientific).

ooman:

Then the creator is not perfect!! If there must be changes to his creations to fit unpredictable future changes, then the creator is not omniscient, or at least does not care about the future of man on earth!! so he doesnt put future changes into consideration in his designs!!

The fact that a creator decides to do something out of his sovereignty does not imply that he is not perfect...its just like saying that if Goodluck Jonathan decides to take a cab from Aso Rock to Lagos then he cannot afford to take a plane...this does not follow in the least.

Edit: He cares about the future of man and that is why we are built to adapt to changing situations.

striktlymi:

I am beginning to suspect that you want this conversation to turn 'left' by misinterpreting my words.

I never rejected the link of homology to evolution...Remember that I also accept some aspect of evolution (at least those aspects that are purely scientific).

IN YOUR OWN WORDS

striktlymi:
[size=15pt]Homology in itself is a fact but its link to evolution is yet to be proven as a scientific fact.[/size]

striktlymi:

The fact that a creator decides to do something out of his sovereignty does not imply that he is not perfect...its just like saying that if Goodluck Jonathan decides to take a cab from Aso Rock to Lagos then he cannot afford to take a plane...this does not follow in the least.

Edit: He cares about the future of man and that is why we are built to adapt to changing situations.

Pls dont bring Goodluck into this, dont compare snail with cheetah!!

You obviously do not know what genetic changes do to species, it causes the extinction of old species and evolution of new. When it does not cause evolutionary change, it causes diseases and death. I RETAIN THAT IF GOD CARES ABOUT HIS CREATIONS, HE WOULD NOT USE A MECHANISM THAT WOULD EXTINCT THEM TO RETAIN THEM.

ooman:

Well then, i will have to quote the bible once again, same verse i quoted above for pastorkun :

there is no real advantage over animals. "Spirit link" is a myth!!

Well my dear ooman, this is the very reason why I say Atheists should leave the aspect of interpreting sacred scriptures in their analysis...

You really need to understand that what you quoted is a practical look at the mortality of man and the frailty of life...the author is not implying that the animals and humans are the same in all things...he was trying to relate his struggles about the 'vanity' of life and what we should consider important...verse 19 of that chapter:


Ecclesiastes 3
19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath[c]; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless.

is a summary of this internal struggle of the author cause life seems so meaningless when it is looked at from the material point of view...the bold suggests that humans and animals would live and die without any hope of a resurrection but this we know is not what the author knows to be true...

He brought this into proper perspective in the final verse of his book:


Ecclesiastes 12
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

animals are not subject to the judgment of God but man is which shows that he believed firmly in eternity as against his earlier struggle which suggests that he is confused about it:


Ecclesiastes 3
21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

If the 'spirit' of man goes downwards there can be no judgment as it is the case for animals.

This is his conclusion on the matter:


Ecclesiastes 12
13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.

The duty of man cause everything we do will be accounted for on the day of judgment...this same judgment is not applicable to animals cause their 'spirit' goes 'downwards' into the earth.

ooman:

Pls dont bring Goodluck into this, dont compare snail with cheetah!!

You obviously do not know what genetic changes do to species, it causes the extinction of old species and evolution of new. When it does not cause evolutionary change, it causes diseases and death. I RETAIN THAT IF GOD CARES ABOUT HIS CREATIONS, HE WOULD NOT USE A MECHANISM THAT WOULD EXTINCT THEM TO RETAIN THEM.

Explained!!!

striktlymi:

Well my dear ooman, this is the very reason why I say Atheists should leave the aspect of interpreting sacred scriptures in their analysis...

You really need to understand that what you quoted is a practical look at the mortality of man and the frailty of life...the author is not implying that the animals and humans are the same in all things...he was trying to relate his struggles about the 'vanity' of life and what we should consider important...verse 19 of that chapter:


Ecclesiastes 3
19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath[c]; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless.

is a summary of this internal struggle of the author cause life seems so meaningless when it is looked at from the material point of view...the bold suggests that humans and animals would live and die without any hope of a resurrection but this we know is not what the author knows to be true...

He brought this into proper perspective in the final verse of his book:


Ecclesiastes 12
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.

animals are not subject to the judgment of God but man is which shows that he believed firmly in eternity as against his earlier struggle which suggests that he is confused about it:


Ecclesiastes 3
21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?”

If the 'spirit' of man goes downwards there can be no judgment as it is the case for animals.

This is his conclusion on the matter:


Ecclesiastes 12
13 Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.

The duty of man cause everything we do will be accounted for on the day of judgment...this same judgment is not applicable to animals cause their 'spirit' goes 'downwards' into the earth.

I doubt that a man, as intelligent as Solomon came to that conclusion, i think that those verses were added by Constantine when he compiled the Bible. And if Solomon really add those verses, then he must have done that because of the view of his days. They really contradicted everything he wrote in his previous chapters.

ooman:

I doubt that a man, as intelligent as Solomon came to that conclusion, i think that those verses were added by Constantine when he compiled the Bible. And if Solomon really add those verses, then he must have done that because of the view of his days. They really contradicted everything he wrote in his previous chapters.

If you ever have experienced internal struggles or the 'darkness of the soul' you wouldn't have made that comment.

striktlymi:

If you ever have experienced internal struggles or the 'darkness of the soul' you wouldn't have made that comment.

Story Story!!. Its story time, pls tell me about that!!

ooman:

Story Story!!. Its story time, pls tell me about that!!

Very funny!!!

striktlymi:

Very funny!!!

Tell me about it.

ooman:

Tell me about it.

May be some other time...

striktlymi:

May be some other time...

The bible is a bed time story so make sure you tell me at a night time.