Quran 3:52 - But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).

Please can any muslim tell me the names of Jesus Disciples the Quran talks about as stated above? Thank you.

I think Yahya (John The Baptist) is the only one mentioned in Quran. I would like to learn if others were named. The Hadith is a better place to find mentiin of them..

AdoZazzau: I think Yahya (John The Baptist) is the only one mentioned in Quran. I would like to learn if others were named. The Hadith is a better place to find mentiin of them..

Thank you for your attempt. John the Baptist was not a disciple of Jesus but John his brother.

My reason for asking the question is because I have heard many muslims say the Gospel according to Mathew, Mark, Luke and John were not written by Jesus eye witnesses, who were supposed to be His Disciples.

But when I read in the Quran that Jesus had Disciples, I therefore wondered who could be the disciples the quran talks about if not the twelve, including Mathew, Mark, Luke and John that we see in the Bible.

It would therefore be wrong to say the Gospel was not written by eye-witnesses of Jesus. The disciples were His eye-witnesses, which the Quran said they bore witnesses to Him as clearly stated in the Surat above.

Since the Quran testifies to the fact that there were disciples who witnessed the sayings and deed of Jesus, why doubt their reports as contained in their writings?

^You are mixing up two different things- authorship of the Bible and the identity of Jesus' (AS) disciples.

pointblank 321:

Thank you for your attempt. John the Baptist was not a disciple of Jesus but John his brother.

My reason for asking the question is because I have heard many muslims say the Gospel according to Mathew, Mark, Luke and John were not written by Jesus eye witnesses, who were supposed to be His Disciples.

But when I read in the Quran that Jesus had Disciples, I therefore wondered who could be the disciples the quran talks about if not the twelve, including Mathew, Mark, Luke and John that we see in the Bible.

It would therefore be wrong to say the Gospel was not written by eye-witnesses of Jesus. The disciples were His eye-witnesses, which the Quran said they bore witnesses to Him as clearly stated in the Surat above.

Since the Quran testifies to the fact that there were disciples who witnessed the sayings and deed of Jesus, why doubt their reports as contained in their writings?

Ok. I see what you mean. If there were witnessing disciples and they penned their narrations then what language was it in?

maclatunji: ^You are mixing up two different things- authorship of the Bible and the identity of Jesus' (AS) disciples.

I'm talking about both because they are connected.

maclatunji: ^You are mixing up two different things- authorship of the Bible and the identity of Jesus' (AS) disciples.

why not answer his question? Afterall d quran must have mentioned Jesus disciples...what are d names of those disciples

The Quran refers to those few people who had brought faith upon Jesus, followed him, supported him and helped him as the Hawa`riyun. These were the disciples of Jesus.

This name, Hawa`riyun is especially employed for those people who followed Jesus and helped him and not for the followers of any other Prophets, although every Prophet has a Hawari (‘sincere companion’) says the Prophet Muhammad in the following Hadith:

"Every Prophet has a Hawari (sincere companion), and my Hawari is Zubair"

The Definition of Hawariyun

Literally, the word Hawariyun is the plural of Hawariyun which means "He who whitens clothes", "He who has been appointed chosen and purified from all kinds of defects", "a companion and a helper

THE NAMES OF THE HAWARIYUN

Imam Qurtubi mentions that, the Hawariyun were twelve in number, but he does not give their names, except the name of the leader of the Hawariyun as Sham’oon (Simon Peter or Cephas) in the miracle of the ascension of the table, saying,

"Sham’oon, the leader of the disciples, asked, "Is this food that of paradise or the food of this world?" Jesus’ reply was, "This is food specially created for you, it is neither from paradise or this world. Allah said to it, "BE," and so it was.

@ ayenny02

There are many things I love in what you stated. You are one of the muslims who say things as they are - point-blank.

Jesus had Hawariyun. They were twelve in number. This tallies with the Bible as Jesus had twelve disciples. You said only Simon Peter's name was mentioned even though there eleven others. This also tallies with the Bible as Simon Peter was one of the twelve disciples.

Another good thing you said is that your source - the hadith says : the Disciples of Jesus - the Hawariyun was a name given especially to Jesus Disciples and it means he who has been appointed, chosen and PURIFIED FROM ALL KINDS OF DEFECTS.....This indicates that Jesus Disciples were trustworthy people because they were purified from all kinds of defects.

Why would people not believe the words and deed of these Hawariyun (Jesus Disciples), Mathiew, Mark, Luke, John and Simon Peter who were purified from all kinds of defects?

Please I want to implore all and sundry to believe their words. I had once said on NL that Islam and Christianity are the two religions that have many things in common, other religions are far apart.

.

pointblank 321: @ ayenny02



Another good thing you said is that your source - the hadith says : the Disciples of Jesus - the Hawariyun was a name given especially to Jesus Disciples and it means he who has been appointed, chosen and PURIFIED FROM ALL KINDS OF DEFECTS.....This indicates that Jesus Disciples were trustworthy people because they were purified from all kinds of defects.

   Also we read in a prophetic Hadith: Never a Prophet had been sent before me by Allah towards his nation who had not among his people (his) disciples and companions who followed his ways and obeyed his command.

Then there came after them their successors who said whatever they did not practice, and practiced whatever they were not commanded to do. He who strove against them with his hand was a believer: he who strove against them with his tongue was a believer, and he who strove against them with his heart was a believer and beyond that there is no faith even to the extent of a mustard seed. [Narrrated by Muslim]

pointblank 321:

Why would people not believe the words and deed of these Hawariyun (Jesus Disciples), Mathiew, Mark, Luke, John and Simon Peter who were purified from all kinds of defects?

Muslims believe, as has been proved and accepted by fair Christian scholars, that the books of the New Testament are not the 'Injeel', the Divine Book revealed to Jesus. Rather, they are personal narrations of the life of Jesus and his disciples, written by different and mostly unknown writers, that underwent several changes and modifications reflecting the views of scribes, translators and ecumenical councils.

The books of the New Testament refer to a separate 'Injeel', as in (Matthews 4:23; 26:13), (Mark 1: 14-15) (Romans 1:1-2,15-16; 11:28; 15:19) and (Corinthians 1: 5,23).

Yet, according to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), Muslims are told to neither accept nor totally reject the scriptures of the People of the Book (Jews and Christians; but rather to scrutinize them objectively, so as to accept only those narrations that are neither self-contradictory, nor stand against proven facts, sound logic or common sense.

pointblank 321:
Please I want to implore all and sundry to believe their words. I had once said on NL that Islam and Christianity are the two religions that have many things in common, other religions are far apart.

Another misunderstanding Muslims often fall into concerns the Bible. Christian missionaries in almost every discussion of the Quran assert that the Quran asks Muslims to believe in the Bible as a revelation of God.  Many Muslims tend to fall into this trap by saying that "we believe in the Bible as revealed book." Once the Muslim accepts this fact, the evangelist can point out that the Bible contradicts the Quran and that since the Bible has precedence over the Quran and since Muslims are required to believe in it, it therefore logically follows that the Bible is right and the Quran is wrong.  But the Quran says no such thing.

There is no reference to the Bible in the Quran whatsoever.  The Quran mentions the Taurat (Old Testament) and the Injil (New Testament).   The Taurat is the book given to prophet Moses. This the equivalent of the Torah/Pentateuch of the Jews and Christians, since much of it was not written by prophet Moses. And the Taurat is definitely not the Old Testament since the OT includes dozens of books attributed to other prophets before Jesus.  

The Injil is translated as the Gospel revealed to prophet Jesus.   This is not the New Testament.

The New Testament is a collection of  4 biographies of Christ, 27 epistles of St. Paul, and other books on the lives and adventures on the followers of Christ.  There is no record of a book revealed to Jesus. Perhaps the closest to it are the words of Jesus himself, which constitutes less than 10% of the NT.

Therefore to say that Christians changed the Bible is an inaccurate statement, and can cause trouble in a discussion, because the Christian can then ask questions such as: Who changed the Bible? When exactly was it changed? How do you know it was changed if you don't have a copy of the original?  The Bible, or at least the New Testament, cannot be an altered copy of the Injil because it is a completely different book.

@ayenny02

@ayenny02

Let me ask you some questions:

1. You said fair Christians scholars accepted that the Injeel is not the New Testament. Who were the Christian scholars? Please state your source. Because I have seen a situation where in a public religious debate, a muslim pretended to be a pastor and defended the Bible weakly and surrendered at the end of the debate. There is nothing the Devil cannot do to deceive.

2. You said the Taurat is not the OT and the Injeel is not NT. Where is the Taurat and the Injeel today?

The contents of the Gospel: the New Testament is what we believe and practice and we see God's response to our faith - MIRACLES. The muslims who falsely claim they have the original word of Allah have no God's signs and wonders to back up their claims. What we see is writing on EGGS, TREE, ROCK, UNDER THE BRIDGES. How is that a benefit to humanity?

truthman2012: @ayenny02

Let me ask you some questions:

1. You said fair Christians scholars accepted that the Injeel is not the New Testament. Who were the Christian scholars? Please state your source. Because I have seen a situation where in a public religious debate, a muslim pretended to be a pastor and defended the Bible weakly and surrendered at the end of the debate. There is nothing the Devil cannot do to deceive.

Dr. Lobegott Friedrich Konstantin Von Tischendorf, one of the most adamant conservative Christian defenders of the Trinity and one of the Church's foremost scholars of the Bible was himself driven to admit that:

"[the New Testament had] in many passages undergone such serious modification of meaning as to leave us in painful uncertainty as to what the Apostles had actually written"

Secrets of Mount Sinai, James Bentley, p. 117

"Yet, as a matter of fact, every book of the New Testament with the exception of the four great Epistles of St. Paul is at present more or less the subject of controversy, and interpolations are asserted even in these."

Encyclopaedia Brittanica, 12th Ed. Vol. 3, p. 643

After listing many examples of contradictory statements in the Bible, Dr. Frederic Kenyon says:

"Besides the larger discrepancies, such as these, there is scarcely a verse in which there is not some variation of phrase in some copies [of the ancient manuscripts from which the Bible has been collected]. No one can say that these additions or omissions or alterations are matters of mere indifference"

Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts, Dr. Frederic Kenyon, Eyre and Spottiswoode, p. 3

The Jehovah's Witnesses in their "AWAKE" Magazine dated 8th September 1957 published the following headline: "50,000 Errors in the Bible" wherein they say "..there are probably 50,000 errors in the Bible...errors which have crept into the Bible text...50,000 such serious errors..." After all of this, however, they go on to say: "...as a whole the Bible is accurate."

Also Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, a prestigious Christian evangelical mission, says:

"..Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men...."

"It is Human, Yet Divine," W Graham Scroggie, p. 17

Another Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:

"...Not so the New testament...There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history..."

"The Call of the Minaret," Kenneth Cragg, p 277

Also read more;www.religioustolerance.org/chr_hcri.htm

truthman2012:

2. You said the Taurat is not the OT and the Injeel is not NT. Where is the Taurat and the Injeel today?

GOD Almighty Said: "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:"

See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.

The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted.  The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption

To know how original bible has lost go here; http://irr.org/todays-bible-real-bible

truthman2012:

The contents of the Gospel: the New Testament is what we believe and practice and we see God's response to our faith - MIRACLES. The muslims who falsely claim they have the original word of Allah have no God's signs and wonders to back up their claims. What we see is writing on EGGS, TREE, ROCK, UNDER THE BRIDGES. How is that a benefit to humanity?

Satan is a great counterfeiter. He devises false teachers and false prophets (2 Peter 2:1) , false apostles with false gospels (2 Cor 11:1-15) and false miracles (2 Thess 2:9). In the end times these will combine into a powerful deception that will even seem to threaten the existence of the church itself.

Bible states seven times that false miracles will mislead many (Matthew 7:21-23, 24:24, Mark 13:22, 2 Thess 2:8-12, Rev 13:13,14, 16:14,19:20) and it seems that this will involve a large section of the world's population (the Greek word for many has the connotations of a majority). Those deceived will believe that they are serving God in the name of Jesus when in fact they are "workers of iniquity".


(Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV) "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. {22} "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' {23} "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

ayenny02: Dr. Lobegott Friedrich Konstantin Von Tischendorf, one of the most adamant conservative Christian defenders of the Trinity and one of the Church's foremost scholars of the Bible was himself driven to admit that:

"[the New Testament had] in many passages undergone such serious modification of meaning as to leave us in painful uncertainty as to what the Apostles had actually written"

Secrets of Mount Sinai, James Bentley, p. 117

"Yet, as a matter of fact, every book of the New Testament with the exception of the four great Epistles of St. Paul is at present more or less the subject of controversy, and interpolations are asserted even in these."

Encyclopaedia Brittanica, 12th Ed. Vol. 3, p. 643

After listing many examples of contradictory statements in the Bible, Dr. Frederic Kenyon says:

"Besides the larger discrepancies, such as these, there is scarcely a verse in which there is not some variation of phrase in some copies [of the ancient manuscripts from which the Bible has been collected]. No one can say that these additions or omissions or alterations are matters of mere indifference"

Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts, Dr. Frederic Kenyon, Eyre and Spottiswoode, p. 3

The Jehovah's Witnesses in their "AWAKE" Magazine dated 8th September 1957 published the following headline: "50,000 Errors in the Bible" wherein they say "..there are probably 50,000 errors in the Bible...errors which have crept into the Bible text...50,000 such serious errors..." After all of this, however, they go on to say: "...as a whole the Bible is accurate."

Also Dr. W Graham Scroggie of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, a prestigious Christian evangelical mission, says:

"..Yes, the Bible is human, although some out of zeal which is not according to knowledge, have denied this. Those books have passed through the minds of men, are written in the language of men, were penned by the hands of men and bear in their style the characteristics of men...."

"It is Human, Yet Divine," W Graham Scroggie, p. 17

Another Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:

"...Not so the New testament...There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history..."

"The Call of the Minaret," Kenneth Cragg, p 277

Also read more;www.religioustolerance.org/chr_hcri.htmGOD Almighty Said: "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:"

See Also Deuteronomy 31:25-29 where Moses peace be upon him predicted the corruption/tampering of the Law (Bible) after his death.

The Book of Moses predicted that the Law (Bible) will get corrupted.  The Book of Jeremiah which came approximately 826 years after did indeed confirm this corruption

To know how original bible has lost go here; http://irr.org/todays-bible-real-bible
Satan is a great counterfeiter. He devises false teachers and false prophets (2 Peter 2:1) , false apostles with false gospels (2 Cor 11:1-15) and false miracles (2 Thess 2:9). In the end times these will combine into a powerful deception that will even seem to threaten the existence of the church itself.

Bible states seven times that false miracles will mislead many (Matthew 7:21-23, 24:24, Mark 13:22, 2 Thess 2:8-12, Rev 13:13,14, 16:14,19:20) and it seems that this will involve a large section of the world's population (the Greek word for many has the connotations of a majority). Those deceived will believe that they are serving God in the name of Jesus when in fact they are "workers of iniquity".


(Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV) "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. {22} "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' {23} "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

NEED FOR NEW TESTAMENT

Jeremiah 8:8:

Jeremiah 8:8 - How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

Deuteronomy 31:25-29:
Deuteronomy 31:25 - That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying,

Deuteronomy 31:26 - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Deuteronomy 31:27 - For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?

Deuteronomy 31:28 - Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

Deuteronomy 31:29 - For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

The above Bible passages point to the fact that there was need for a New Testament as the Old Testament has been made faulty by men. This necessitated the coming of Jesus Christ as in:

Hebrews 7:22
By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Hebrews 8:7-10
Hebrews 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:9
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their MIND, and write them in their HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Under the New Testament the Laws as are written in human hearts by the Holy Spirit, no scribes can corrupt them because they are not on papers. Therefore the Laws of God inside us (Christians) NOW is not corruptible and not corrupt.

TAURAT (TORAH) AND INJEEL

No doubt, the Taurat and Injeel (Gospel) are words of Allah in Islam. The muslims allege that they have both been changed or corrupted. Right? This claim is contrary to the word of Allah in:

[Pickthal 6:115] Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is naught that can change His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower

[Pickthal 10:64] Theirs are good tidings in the life of the world and in the Hereafter - There is no changing the Words of Allah - that is the Supreme Triumph

The claim that the word of Allah, Taurat and Injeel have been changed or corrupted renders Allah a Liar because He said "there is no changing His words and NOTHING can change His words. It means Allah's words are not reliable as people have changed it. The various authors you referred to only succeeded in making Allah's words a NULLITY as his words have been changed.

Again, those authors referred to by you, did they convert to Islam? Please state with proof. It is only reasonable that they got converted to Islam if they actually said what they said they said. Otherwise they must have been quoted out of context.


MIRACLES

COUNTERFEIT AND FALSE: I am glad all the references you quoted on the above are from the Bible. This means all the warnings about counterfeit miracles are for the Christians and not for the Muslims to be careful. Fortunately the writers were miracle workers themselves, which means there are the original miracles. Counterfeit is an inferior copy of the original. If the original does not exist, there will be nothing to counterfeit. I therefore declare to you that there are original miracles. This are happening LIVE.

Why are miracles not happening in ISLAM but Arabian magic (i.e using talisman: hontu, tira etc). Real miracle can only happen by words of mouth using the name of Jesus. Why is deliverance not happening in Islam? No muslim can order a demon out as it happens using the name of Jesus. Jesus said in my name, you will cast out devils. It is happening LIVE. The question is: why would a miraculous Allah who gave a miraculous Quran not impact miraculous power on His followers?

CONFIRMATION OF THE AUTHENTICITY OF PAUL'S WRITTING

According the the author you referred to, only Paul's writings have no controversy. I'm surprised you quoted that because muslims criticize Paul's writing so much. Fortunately, Paul depended so much on other disciples who were the real witnesses of Jesus. As you might know, Paul only came to join them later. If Paul who was not a first class witness of Jesus could write authentic Gospel, who much more the real witnesses. That the writing of other disciples who were first class witnesses is controversial is an irony.

ISLAM

I want to again take this opportunity to ask the Unanswered Questions in Islam, perhaps they will be answered this time.

1. Gabriel appeared to Muhammad for the first time and without any prior discussion he said "READ". The fact that Muhammad said "what can I read" shows there was nothing presented to him. Then why did Gabriel start his revelations with LIES?

2. Why would Muhammad be pressed three times almost to the point of death in order to be sent good news? What does good news have to do with tormenting?

3. Why would Gabriel start his revelations with VIOLENCE? Is that not the reason muslims are violent people throughout the world today?

4. Why was the coming of Muhammad not foretold because of the importance of his mission like Jesus?

5. Why would Allah not speak with Muhammad directly like other prophets before him?

6.Why would Allah order Muhammad to take the wife of Zaid when there were other women he could marry?

7.Jesus said signs and wonders are needed to be performed by prophets of God (Acts 2:22, John 4:48). Why was Muhammad not able to do any miracle as a prophet?

What were the questions asked by some early followers of Muhammad that made them to reject Islam (Quran 5:101-102)

truthman2012:

NEED FOR NEW TESTAMENT

Jeremiah 8:8:

Jeremiah 8:8 - How do ye say, We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain.

Deuteronomy 31:25-29:
Deuteronomy 31:25 - That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying,

Deuteronomy 31:26 - Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Deuteronomy 31:27 - For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?

Deuteronomy 31:28 - Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them.

Deuteronomy 31:29 - For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.

The above Bible passages point to the fact that there was need for a New Testament as the Old Testament has been made faulty by men. This necessitated the coming of Jesus Christ as in:

Thank God you accepted that Old testament has corrupted.


Let's now check the authorship and corrupted in New testament.

Who were the authors of the New testament?  Were they really the original Desciples?

The Gospel of Matthew:

"The unknown author, whom we shall continue to call Matthew for the sake of convenience, drew no only up the Gospel according to Mark but upon a large body of material (principally, sayings of Jesus) not found in Mk that corresponds, sometimes exactly, to material found also in the Gospel according to Luke.  (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1008)"

"As for the place where the gospel was composed, a plausible suggestion is that it was Antioch, the capital of the Roman province of Syria.  (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1009)"

So we clearly see, both the author or authors and the place of composition of the "Gospel of Matthew" are unknown.

 

The Gospel of Mark:

Note:   This gospel is the oldest and supposedly the most original one in the New Testament!


"Although the book is anonymous, apart from the ancient heading "According to Mark" in manuscripts, it has traditionally been assigned to John Mark, in whose  mother's house (at Jerusalem) Christians assembled.  (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1064)"

"Although there is no direct internal evidence of authorship, it was the unanimous testimony of the early church that this Gospel was written by John Mark.  (From the NIV Bible Commentary [1], page 1488)"

We certainly do not know whether Mark was the author or not!  The quote clearly states "no direct internal evidence of authorship".  Also, the so-called unanimous testimony of the early church:
  
-  Does not prove that the author was Mark.
   
-  Nor does it prove that other people did not alter and modify the book, especially when the book was written at least 40-50 years after Christ.  We don't even know if Mark even wrote the book.

  
"Traditionally, the gospel is said to have been written shortly before A.D. 70 in Rome, at a time of impending persecution and when destruction loomed over Jerusalem.  (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1064)"

"Serious doubts exists as to whether these verses belong to the Gospel of Mark.  They are absent from important early manuscripts and display certain peculiarities of vocabulary, style and theological content that are unlike the rest of Mark.  His Gospel probably ended at 16:8, or its original ending has been lost.  (From the NIV Bible Foot Notes [1], page 1528)"

"This verse, which reads, "But if you do not forgive, neither will your heavenly Father forgive your transgressions," is omitted in the best manuscripts.  (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1081)"

"This passage, termed the Longer Ending to the Marcan gospel by comparison with a much briefer conclusion found in some less important manuscripts, has traditionally been accepted as a canonical part of the gospel and was defined as such by the Council of Trent.  Early citations of it by the Fathers indicate that it was composed by the second century, although vocabulary and style indicate that it was written by someone other than Mark.  (The New American Bible, ISBN: 978-0-529-06484-4, Page 1088)"

truthman2012:

Hebrews 7:22
By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

Hebrews 8:7-10
Hebrews 8:7
For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:9
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their MIND, and write them in their HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

Under the New Testament the Laws as are written in human hearts by the Holy Spirit, no scribes can corrupt them because they are not on papers. Therefore the Laws of God inside us (Christians) NOW is not corruptible and not corrupt.

So, who then are the authors of the books of the Bible? Obviously the Church must know them very well since they are popularly believed to have received divine inspiration from God Himself. Right? Actually, they don't.

For example, we will note that every Gospel begins with the introduction "According to....." such as "The Gospel according to Saint Matthew," "The Gospel according to Saint Luke," "The Gospel according to Saint Mark," "The Gospel according to Saint John." The obvious conclusion for the average man on the street is that these people are known to be the authors of the books attributed to them.

This, however is not the case. Why? Because not one of the vaunted four thousand copies existent carries its author's signature. It has just been assumed that certain people were the authors. Recent discoveries, however, refute this belief. Even the internal evidence suggests that, for instance, Matthew did not write the Gospel attributed to him:

"...And as Jesus passed forth thence, HE (Jesus) saw a man, named Matthew, sitting at the receipt of custom: and HE (Jesus) saith unto HIM (Matthew), follow ME (Jesus) and HE (Matthew) arose, and followed HIM (Jesus). (Matthew 9:9)"

Did "Matthew" write this about himself? Why then didn't Matthew write for example: "he (Jesus) saw ME, and my name is Matthew. I was sitting at the receipt of custom…" etc.

Such evidence can be found in many places throughout the New Testament. Granted, it may be possible that an author sometimes may write in the third person, still, in light of the rest of the evidence that we shall see throughout this book, there is simply too much evidence against this hypothesis.


Let us have a slightly more detailed look at only one book of the New Testament, that of 'Hebrews':

"The author of the Book of Hebrews is unknown. Martin Luther suggested that Apollos was the author...Tertullian said that Hebrews was a letter of Barnabas...Adolf Harnack and J. Rendel Harris speculated that it was written by Priscilla (or Prisca). William Ramsey suggested that it was done by Philip. However, the traditional position is that the Apostle Paul wrote Hebrews...Eusebius believed that Paul wrote it, but Origen was not positive of Pauline authorship.

truthman2012:
Fortunately, Paul depended so much on other disciples who were the real witnesses of Jesus. As you might know, Paul only came to join them later. If Paul who was not a first class witness of Jesus could write authentic Gospel, who much more the real witnesses. That the writing of other disciples who were first class witnesses is controversial is an irony.

The Validity of the Trinity Belief:

Trinity doctrine doesn't have basic in either NT nor in OT. They depend on human interpretation to form up this doctrine. It is totally pagan.

In the preface to Edward Gibbon's History of Christianity, we read: "If Paganism was conquered by Christianity, it is equally true that Christianity was corrupted by Paganism."

A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge notes that many say that the Trinity "is a corruption borrowed from the heathen religions, and engrafted on the Christian faith." And The Paganism in Our Christianity declares: "The origin of the [Trinity] is entirely pagan."

The Encyclopedia Americana comments: "Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching."

Many of the fundamental beliefs of Christianity which have been for many centuries taken on blind faith (those which differ from the beliefs of Muslims) are now beginning to be challenged by some of the foremost scholars and religious leaders of Christianity today.

An example of this can be found in the British newspaper the "Daily News" 25/6/84 under the  heading "Shock survey of Anglican Bishops" We read that a British television pole of 31 of the 39  Anglican Bishops in England found 19 to believe that it is not necessary for Christians to believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is God, but only "His supreme agent" (his messenger) as taught by Muslims for 1400 years now and testified to by John 17:3 "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you hast sent

truthman2012:

[Pickthal 6:115] Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and justice. There is naught that can change His words. He is the Hearer, the Knower

[Pickthal 10:64] Theirs are good tidings in the life of the world and in the Hereafter - There is no changing the Words of Allah - that is the Supreme Triumph

The claim that the word of Allah, Taurat and Injeel have been changed or corrupted renders Allah a Liar because He said "there is no changing His words and NOTHING can change His words. It means Allah's words are not reliable as people have changed it. The various authors you referred to only succeeded in making Allah's words a NULLITY as his words have been changed.

Those verses of the Quran has nothing to do with the Bible.
ARE U CLEARED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

truthman2012:

Why are miracles not happening in ISLAM but Arabian magic (i.e using talisman: hontu, tira etc). Real miracle can only happen by words of mouth using the name of Jesus. Why is deliverance not happening in Islam? No muslim can order a demon out as it happens using the name of Jesus. Jesus said in my name, you will cast out devils. It is happening LIVE. The question is: why would a miraculous Allah who gave a miraculous Quran not impact miraculous power on His followers?

Bible states seven times that false miracles will mislead many (Matthew 7:21-23, 24:24, Mark 13:22, 2 Thess 2:8-12, Rev 13:13,14, 16:14,19:20) and it seems that this will involve a large section of the world's population (the Greek word for many has the connotations of a majority). Those deceived will believe that they are serving God in the name of Jesus when in fact they are "workers of iniquity".


(Matthew 7:21-23 NKJV) "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. {22} "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' {23} "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

truthman2012:

I want to again take this opportunity to ask the Unanswered Questions in Islam, perhaps they will be answered this time.

1. Gabriel appeared to Muhammad for the first time and without any prior discussion he said "READ". The fact that Muhammad said "what can I read" shows there was nothing presented to him. Then why did Gabriel start his revelations with LIES?

2. Why would Muhammad be pressed three times almost to the point of death in order to be sent good news? What does good news have to do with tormenting?

3. Why would Gabriel start his revelations with VIOLENCE? Is that not the reason muslims are violent people throughout the world today?

4. Why was the coming of Muhammad not foretold because of the importance of his mission like Jesus?

5. Why would Allah not speak with Muhammad directly like other prophets before him?

6.Why would Allah order Muhammad to take the wife of Zaid when there were other women he could marry?

7.Jesus said signs and wonders are needed to be performed by prophets of God (Acts 2:22, John 4:48). Why was Muhammad not able to do any miracle as a prophet?

What were the questions asked by some early followers of Muhammad that made them to reject Islam (Quran 5:101-102)

Please don't derail the thread,if you check the islam section all the question has been answered. I know how you feel about the proof how bible were corrupted. Just accept my apology, is not my fault to revealed the truth but I just have to let you know it.
SORRY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

@ ayenny02

You are making me to laugh. You are so amusing. Your expressions are very laughable like that of womanish women: SORRY!!!!!!! ARE YOU CLEAR!!!!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND!!!!!!! and so on. Are you a feminine man?

I know you are really working hard searching anti-Christ sites on the internet so much so that you often get confused along the line.

Inspite of your research, I notice you stylishly closed your eyes to some vital points and have to repeat some things you have said before on this thread. You repeat what you said on false miracles, which I have clearly debunked.

You fought so fiercely on authorship of the Bible but very silent on Allah opening his eyes widely open seeing his words - Torah and Injeel changed or lost despite his remarks that nothing can change his words. Is he not supposed to keep watch over them to protect them.

You have forgotten so soon that you said that Paul's writing is not controversial. If they don't know the author, how come they know it is Paul writings? If they know Paul's writing, what stops them from knowing who wrote others? You are not likely to know what you are writing because you only copy and paste. No wonder you get confused along the line.

You also failed to tell me with proof if those authors you quoted eventually converted to islam. That would have informed everybody whether or not they were correctly quoted.

I have got to repeat my posts as many times as I'm required to do so. Why can't you attempt the questions once again even if you have answered before? It is another way of dodging or you cannot get them copied from anywhere for pasting? Keep working, perhaps you can get the answers but I know you cannot get the answers on the net.

truthman2012: @ ayenny02

You are making me to laugh. You are so amusing. Your expressions are very laughable like that of womanish women: SORRY!!!!!!! ARE YOU CLEAR!!!!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND!!!!!!! and so on. Are you a feminine man?

I know you are really working hard searching anti-Christ sites on the internet so much so that you often get confused along the line.

Inspite of your research, I notice you stylishly closed your eyes to some vital points and have to repeat some things you have said before on this thread. You repeat what you said on false miracles, which I have clearly debunked.

You fought so fiercely on authorship of the Bible but very silent on Allah opening his eyes widely open seeing his words - Torah and Injeel changed or lost despite his remarks that nothing can change his words. Is he not supposed to keep watch over them to protect them.

You have forgotten so soon that you said that Paul's writing is not controversial. If they don't know the author, how come they know it is Paul writings? If they know Paul's writing, what stops them from knowing who wrote others? You are not likely to know what you are writing because you only copy and paste. No wonder you get confused along the line.

You also failed to tell me with proof if those authors you quoted eventually converted to islam. That would have informed everybody whether or not they were correctly quoted.

I have got to repeat my posts as many times as I'm required to do so. Why can't you attempt the questions once again even if you have answered before? It is another way of dodging or you cannot get them copied from anywhere for pasting? Keep working, perhaps you can get the answers but I know you cannot get the answers on the net.

Gbammmmu, thks for accepting the truth that OLD and NEW BIBLE were not from God except from unknowing author.

About your question, search engine is you friend for the answer or to open another thread don't derail this topic, I understand ur logic and how you feel, is not easy to leave what you have bn brainwashed since ur childhood but try to seel for the truth.

ayenny02:
Gbammmmu, thks for accepting the truth that OLD and NEW BIBLE were not from God except from unknowing author.

About your question, search engine is you friend for the answer or to open another thread don't derail this topic, I understand ur logic and how you feel, is not easy to leave what you have bn brainwashed since ur childhood but try to seel for the truth.

O ma se o.

ayenny02:
Gbammmmu, thks for accepting the truth that OLD and NEW BIBLE were not from God except from unknowing author.

About your question, search engine is you friend for the answer or to open another thread don't derail this topic, I understand ur logic and how you feel, is not easy to leave what you have bn brainwashed since ur childhood but try to seel for the truth.

O ma se o. I hold it that those questions remain unanswered. I will wait for another opportunity to ask again. Keep searching till then.

ayenny02:
Gbammmmu, thks for accepting the truth that OLD and NEW BIBLE were not from God except from unknowing author.

About your question, search engine is you friend for the answer or to open another thread don't derail this topic, I understand ur logic and how you feel, is not easy to leave what you have bn brainwashed since ur childhood but try to seel for the truth.

O ma se o. I take it that those questions remain unanswered. I will wait for another opportunity to ask again. Keep searching till then.

pointblank 321: Quran 3:52 - But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).

Please can any muslim tell me the names of Jesus Disciples the Quran talks about as stated above? Thank you.

Logically, why would you expect a "historian" who wrote after centuries of an event to be more accurate or knowledgeable than the one who was there during the event?
Even so, the Bible written by those who were actual witnesses of these events is certainly more reliable when compared to the stories of an arabian who lived centruies later in a land throusands of kilometers away for the location where all the events happened.

Why are you looking for the living among the dead?

@Owo; will you allow your premise of earlier material is a better information, when it comes to God of OT and God of NT, about One God and God in Trinity? if this is so, why do you continue to say God is Jesus, God is Holy Ghost and God is Yahweh at the same the very Single "I AM" of Moses? Is 1 of OT the obvious 3 Person of Trinity?

There are other books of religions that came before OT, and they know there is God, even though it may involve more than many physical things while Trinity has 1 physical Jesus and 2 unseen entities, Holy Ghost and Yahweh. will you therefore say that their version of seen and unseen God is more truthful than your version?

for me it is certain that if truth comes after lie, the truth is the obvious master. Time is irrelevant until truth is revealed.

@RoyPCain: postulated premise was aimed at knocking off the very foundation of OPs question. His question related to physical persons who were known and recorded as historical realities. They spoke, were heard and even personally gave accounts which are all recorded in the Bible. Somne of their scrolls are here with us today.
All other records about them can only be a copy and their authenticity (or lack of it) depends on the motive of the purveyor.

However, for "esoteric", doctrinal or moral issues other kinds and levels of premises take precedence because revealed truth is timeless. For the records, IT IS NOT necessarily true that " Time is irrelevant until truth is revealed".

@Owo: My question is not answered by what you provided above. I said if the earlier means truer as your premise indicates, the last thing in the hindu scripture is earlier than the earliest material in the OT. does it follow that hindu scripture is correct and you must yield to it over the bible?

if you can say no, then you must accept that the earlier does not necessarily mean the truer, especially if it has evidential discrepancy while what come after it is consistently firm in its position, unshaken and there is no lie in it based on available evidences.

@RoyPCain: Your question, as understood by me, is answered viz "However, for "esoteric", doctrinal or moral issues other kinds and levels of premises take precedence because revealed truth is timeless".

Clearly, the same premise cannot be the basis for all issues and conjectures. An appropriate premise is required for each one and real wisdom lies in knowing which premise is appropriate at a particular time.

For instance, in the case started by the OP, the premise of "earlier and evidential testimony" must be applied because "His question related to physical persons who were known and recorded as historical realities. They spoke, were heard and even personally gave accounts which are all recorded in the Bible. Somne of their scrolls are here with us today".
Later writers, in this case, cannot have a truth better than the witnesses and participants.
Therefore, unfortunately I cannot agree that your statement "if you can say no, then you must accept that the earlier does not necessarily mean the truer" is always true.

In the case of God's revelation of Himself, another premise needs to be applied becasue its a moral or "esoteric truth" whose evidence is based on faith, sights, visions, feeling etc.

I would stop here on this to avoid derailing the OP's thread, but would be willing to discuss deeply, if necessary, the correct premise that should be applied in examining the truth of God's revelation of Himself in order to know the right way to follow among the many competing throughts and beflief systems in our planet.

@Owo: At the end we need to accept that God knows the Ones He sent with His Truth, irrespective of the opinion of those who do not know the Yardstick of God. Please watch this video for your own benefit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0zWbL8Uqfw

@RoyPCain: Indeed God knows the Ones he Sent with His Truth.
However,due of his deep love, He has given us the privilege of knowing the TRUTH so that we do not stumble and fall. Because "surely there is an end" and all " ... will account of what they did while in this (earthly) body".
Therefore God did not leave us without a clear definition of His standards, yardstick and reference frame.
May you receive the peace the at passes all human understanding.

@Owo: the video that i posted will be a great benefit to you if you watch and process it. it addresses the disciples and corruption.

True. God holds sway over Truth. But your prayer is similar asking a vegetarian to eat lamb pretending it soya meal patty just because you have accepted it. the comfort you find in your position even in the face of profound evidence that your position is not a safe bet will not satisfy anyone who believes God is clear about His proven Truth; He provides The Last Revelation to confirm what is true and correct what is wrong and serve as the standard reality of previous 'revelations'.

Indeed the last revelation syndrome is always a catch 22 (ie it is the same number whether it is read forward or backward).
And if we play on the last revelation stuff, then we are all bound to run into series of stumbling blocks and ultimately be misled. One man's last revelation is easily another man's heresy. I can tell you at least 10 "last revelation" groups worldwide. One of the last revelations (about 200 yrs old) has become one of the richest religious empires that the world has ever known.
Therefore, all men must find a way to analyse the truth, verify claims, evaluate options and reach conclusions on the issue of TRUTH otherwise life would be a waste.

In summary, the vegetarian should know that he has options, then analayse and verify claims of each option before jumping off his vegetarian diet. For its only one life and soon it'll be gone; we need to make hay while the sun is shining. Praying that you receive the peace that passes all human understanding

Scholar8200, this is a suitable thread for your concern but I am still going to post my prepared reply there anyways.

Catch fun here, buddy.