Zikkyy:
You are talking about the decent education for pastor's children, what about the children of church members funding pastor's activities? what if the church is located in community where members are barely able to feed themselves and their families? abi na only pastor dey enjoy? Anyways, the issue is not about pastor's comfort, the OP is asking if pastors are entitled to wages.

Zikky, the thread is talking about ministers and their pay, not about church members that are not ministers and their care. You need to learn to look at things holistically, not just with an extremist's view of making every minister an Oyedepo. i do not think anyone here has suggested that church members should not have good education. Decent education is not a luxury or comfort as you imply, it is what everybody should have.

not compulsory pastor do all the things church members do na.

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.


This is what Christ wants from all His followers.

this is also applicable to pastors having all the fun when some church members are having difficulty finding food. abi i lie?

It is applicable to everybody.

You talk true for here. But that is not to say they are entitled to salary according to scripture. if the church members believe they can afford a salary for pastor no wahala, it's for the church members to decide.

So stop complaining when the church members have decided and are happy with it. Most church members want the best for their elders. i do not think that members of MFM, Winners, DeeperLife, RCCG, Catholic, CEC etc are complaining that their pastors are (probably) being paid salary. Many of them are ready to give their eyes even.
Gal 4:15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

The pastor is more likely to be on the losing side if he decide to stop work when some street in Lagos can boast of having up to six church.

1Co 9:4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
1Co 9:6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
The early church leaders had the power and choice to stop working if they wanted to, and the church was to take care of them. This is fact and truth.

nwuyag:
part time, full time??, I thought as much, there is now a money structure in the church. I didn't see all those in the bible tbo and am tired of seeing ppl using any passage in tge bible, be it parable/idiom or straight words to describe thing

\

i do not exactly understand what you mean by part time, full time?? But anyway, there has always being diversities of administration in the church. Every one is not the same. God has called us to unity and not necessarily uniformity. Some folks can and need to work full time in ministry. Some folks can work part time in ministry. They are both accepted before God. The early church leaders gave themselves to prayers and the ministry of the Word, and were able to record the success they recorded. It helped them to serve God without much distractions.
Act 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Act 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

You cannot expect the same input or output from someone who leaves home 4am and comes back from work 10pm every day, with someone who's work is in the church praying, evangelising and studying, or someone who is a shift worker and may be on duty at work instead of being in fellowship. Most schools would not consider someone working for some sensitive courses. Most organisations would not fully agree with keeping more than one job. This is all for better productivity. God is not mocked.

God2man: We must take care of ministers of God, it is a curse if we do not care about them.
Infact there is no need for pressurizing any member to do this, the members will have no choice than to take care of the ministers because of the blessings, breakthrough, deliverance they have received under their ministrations.

However, the minister must also be in a position to help his members finacially, spiritually and otherwise.

Like priest, like members.


God bless you.
God2man.

My brother, pls stop mouthing the bolded. Curse on a Christian for whom Christ shed his blood? because he didn't give money to his pastor? Can you support that with a bible verse?

Pls let us not twist the bible to support a cause we believe to be noble; it ends up corrupting the nobility of the cause.

Christians are encouraged to share but there is NO curse whatsoever for refusing to

Image123:
Zikky, the thread is talking about ministers and their pay, not about church members that are not ministers and their care. You need to learn to look at things holistically, not just with an extremist's view of making every minister an Oyedepo.

shine your eye very well, i wasn't thinking oyedepo, i was thinking of a church in the village.

Image123:
i do not think anyone here has suggested that church members should not have good education. Decent education is not a luxury or comfort as you imply, it is what everybody should have.

i never said decent education was a luxury. You just don't get it. before you start telling members to pay the school fees of pastor's children, you should ask if they can afford it.

Image123:
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Luk 6:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.


This is what Christ wants from all His followers.

That's if the members are looking to obtain financial assistance from the pastor. if not then no need to support to pastor (financially), abi?

Image123:
So stop complaining when the church members have decided and are happy with it.

You read me complaining if you are not happy with some people, direct your sadness at them abeg.

Image123:
i do not think that members of MFM, Winners, DeeperLife, RCCG, Catholic, CEC etc are complaining that their pastors are (probably) being paid salary. Many of them are ready to give their eyes even.

...and i am not saying they are complaining, they can give their life even. I believe the question has to do with wages for pastors and my view was that members can do whatever makes them happy. I will only have issues if pastor (or church member like you) attempt to justify pastor's salary using scriptures.

Image123:
1Co 9:4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
1Co 9:6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
The early church leaders had the power and choice to stop working if they wanted to, and the church was to take care of them. This is fact and truth.

I don't argue this bit. as stated in my initial response, any pastor that decides to exercise this option (i.e. stop working) today will be the one to lose. who cares if the pastor stop working when there are thousands willing and happy to squeeze into the tiny vacuum created by his departure

Zikkyy:

shine your eye very well, i wasn't thinking oyedepo, i was thinking of a church in the village.



i never said decent education was a luxury. You just don't get it. before you start telling members to pay the school fees of pastor's children, you should ask if they can afford it.

Nobody has said that members should start paying the school fees of pastor's children. Your efforts to misconstrue what i say are a bit overzealous. i was mentioning things that a minister needs that every normal human being also needs and prays for, things like quality education. i was mentioning this to show why a minister should be paid like every other person desires to be paid or earn something stable. You linked(whether knowingly or unknowingly) my point on education to pastor's enjoyment and comfort.

Zikkyy:

That's if the members are looking to obtain financial assistance from the pastor. if not then no need to support to pastor (financially), abi?

i do not understand this. Are you saying that we should help others or do to others as we want them to do to us, only if we are expecting assistance from them?

...and i am not saying they are complaining, they can give their life even. I believe the question has to do with wages for pastors and my view was that members can do whatever makes them happy. I will only have issues if pastor (or church member like you) attempt to justify pastor's salary using scriptures.

You always have issues, i'm not perturbed.

Image123: Some folks here are just plain ridiculous and have failed woefully in the second great commandment, to love your neighbour as yourself. i guess it would have been better if some had no Bible like most of the first century christians. So, a christian would need to be soundly drilled and convinced to agree that a minister of the gospel deserves to be paid. He is expected to only perhaps have his basic needs needs met. Basic needs in this case referring to feeding and clothing. There should be no thought for his family, he would not educate and raise his children, he would not send them to good schools, he would not have enough as to be able to do all the things that you want and pray to do, becuase he is a minister abi. What i see is people who have little or no field experience of what service is. They are just here to run mouth as talk is very cheap these days. You want to build house and become landlord of tenantS self, you want to buy car and change cars, buy for your wife and friends, you want to travel for courses, and go for vacation, you pray to be able to give quality education to your loved ones and kids in any part of the world, and to have access to the best medical care possible. But your minister should go and sit down and thank God that he can get breakfast today, shameless christains abound here.

This is what I've not been able to understand all these years. Two guys graduate from school. One gets a good job that assures a good living for himself and his family. The other hears and heeds the call of God to go into ministry. The non-minister buys cars for himself and his wife, builds houses in the city and the village, sends his kids to decent schools. His kids graduate and live a good life, while serving God, like their parents. The minister struggles to pay his house rent. He manages an old car with his wife. He has no house anywhere. His kids go to terrible schools and eventually end up in some low-skilled trade. Their life is hard, financially. They see their father's classmate and children and resent the path their minister father chose. They hate the ministry. In fact, their parents almost regret answering the call. "WE" run out good people from ministry and turn around to complain that charlatans run the church. Lord have mercy!

nlMediator:

This is what I've not been able to understand all these years. Two guys graduate from school. One gets a good job that assures a good living for himself and his family. The other hears and heeds the call of God to go into ministry. The non-minister buys cars for himself and his wife, builds houses in the city and the village, sends his kids to decent schools. His kids graduate and live a good life, while serving God, like their parents. The minister struggles to pay his house rent. He manages an old car with his wife. He has no house anywhere. His kids go to terrible schools and eventually end up in some low-skilled trade. Their life is hard, financially. They see their father's classmate and children and resent the path their minister father chose. They hate the ministry. In fact, their parents almost regret answering the call. "WE" run out good people from ministry and turn around to complain that charlatans run the church. Lord have mercy!

i'm not sure it's as straightforward as you outlined there. Even in the secular world, there are some courses you do'nt willingly go into if plenty money to meet all wants and needs is your goal. Take a trip to JAMB office or data base and count how many students fill for Education or single honors courses. The reason is simple: You have a lesser chance of 'making it' teaching than say practicing medicine. Hence a student who feels led to go into Teaching will have prepared his mind beforehand to weather plenty storms and would most likely be propelled forward by the overriding desire to make a difference in the lives of his/her pupils than enjoy affluence.

My bro, the Spirit that pushes a person into Christian ministry is even expected to be more selfless than the one that leads someone into teaching. I repeat a Christian who answers the call to ministry and expects to live a life comparative to the engineer in Mobil has lost his vision before it's even started. Every man's desire is to assure a good life for his family and we Christians owe it to help true ministers(a lot of fakes abound) achieve some semblance of a respectful life but every minister truly called by God would have been told he wont have a rose petaled pathway.

My mum in law visits orphanages at a set time every year to share with them. She visited one this year somewhere in the North and told me she shed tears. Not so much for the orphans but for the young couple who have made it their life mission to bring succor to children on the fringes of society. this couple abandoned what could have been promising careers to relocate to a remote village in plateau state because they felt the call of God to do so. What touched MIL was the serenity she saw about them as if they had everything they ever dreamed of. They've been at it for some years and have seen some of their wards proceed to Rochas Okorocha's free school in Jos. When asked for what they need, the only request was a small bus to help with transportation. While we don't expect every minister to be like this couple, Pls it will be nice we stop comparing ministry to secular jobs. They are oceans apart.

The thieves in Christianity today didn't become thieves because of Poor remuneration. It's like condoning a corrupt civil servant because civil service pay is poor. That is flawed logic.

^^

First of all, I should have made clear that the 2 people in my story were classmates - read the same course, the same year and in the same school. So, theoretically, their chances in life should be similar. Sure, ministry is sacrifice. But what we're discussing here does not negate sacrifice. It is sacrificial enough that the minister fasts several days a week while his friends are feasting on lobster and steak; it is sacrificial enough that the minister misses a whole lot of family events because he has to attend to the various needs of the congregation; it is a lot of sacrifice to devote countless hours, including constantly studying tons of material and picking up the phone at midnight to address a terrible situation that just arose relating to the church or its members. Granted, some ministers sacrifice more than the others, based on the nature of their asignment. However, ministry sacrifice does not necessarily mean you cannot own a house and that only the engineers at Mobil and similarly employed people should. Can you show me ONE place in the Bible where it says that if you choose to answer the call of God, you and your family forfeit all or most opportunities open to other christians? You are only creating your own picture of a ministry lifestyle and expectation that have no Biblical foundation, but only based on human traditions. What is happening is that some are condemning ministers to a life of poverty and penury because of the excesses of other ministers. That is as wrong as using the excess lifestyle as a yardstick for what a church should provide for its pastor. Both extremes are wrong.

And what you forgot to mention about people that study different courses is that while the Education student is expected to make less money than the Finance major, there are lots of educators (and graduates of less-lucrative courses) who through dint of hard work, proper investment and even wise inventions have become millionaires and much richer than the doctors, lawyers and bankers. But in your ministry example, the pastor no matter what he does cannot change his financial fortunes. Yet, every other person, including the teacher can. Again, can you show me where the Bible says that?

nlMediator: ^^

First of all, I should have made clear that the 2 people in my story were classmates - read the same course, the same year and in the same school. So, theoretically, their chances in life should be similar. Sure, ministry is sacrifice. But what we're discussing here does not negate sacrifice. It is sacrificial enough that the minister fasts several days a week while his friends are feasting on lobster and steak; it is sacrificial enough that the minister misses a whole lot of family events because he has to attend to the various needs of the congregation; it is a lot of sacrifice to devote countless hours, including constantly studying tons of material and picking up the phone at midnight to address a terrible situation that just arose relating to the church or its members. Granted, some ministers sacrifice more than the others, based on the nature of their asignment. However, ministry sacrifice does not necessarily mean you cannot own a house and that only the engineers at Mobil and similarly employed people should. Can you show me ONE place in the Bible where it says that if you choose to answer the call of God, you and your family forfeit all or most opportunities open to other christians? You are only creating your own picture of a ministry lifestyle and expectation that have no Biblical foundation, but only based on human traditions. What is happening is that some are condemning ministers to a life of poverty and penury because of the excesses of other ministers. That is as wrong as using the excess lifestyle as a yardstick for what a church should provide for its pastor. Both extremes are wrong.

And what you forgot to mention about people that study different courses is that while the Education student is expected to make less money than the Finance major, there are lots of educators (and graduates of less-lucrative courses) who through dint of hard work, proper investment and even wise inventions have become millionaires and much richer than the doctors, lawyers and bankers. But in your ministry example, the pastor no matter what he does cannot change his financial fortunes. Yet, every other person, including the teacher can. Again, can you show me where the Bible says that?

My bro, we have the apostles and our Lord as examples in Scriptures and even the prophets of the old testament as examples. Can you point to one that had a smooth ride? have you read Foxe's book of martyrs to see how all the apostles ended their lives? What about Hosea who was forced to marry a prostitute and live with the stigma? how many chariots did Elisha, Elijah, Jeremiah etc have? My bro, If we have to go by the life our forbears of ministry lived, we will find it hard to refer to pastors of today as men of God. Pls hope you dont see Solomon, David in the same mold as Elijah or Elisha?

No matter how we look at it, the service in the vineyard of the Most High God comes with peril, deprivations, etc and that is the truth. The work of the ministry is not a pathway to gain and profit. Paul said as much to Timothy in 1Tim 6:5. Paul described it as the life of a soldier because that is what it is. We Christians must endeavor not to allow our ministers become destitute of resources but a pastor who is called into ministry must be ready to tread a rough road if he accepts it.

@ the bolded, Why can't he change his fortunes if he is opportuned? but saying the congregation or ministry owe him a similar lifestyle to that of the rich elite of his congregation is a totally wrong statement. If it's just a question of meeting needs, it wont be a problem but when our ministers now try to measure the quality of life they live by the number of cars or houses they own thereby competing with the rich elite in their congregation, then i am afraid they've missed it.

This isn't a picture i created bro. It's the reality of the life of a worker in the vineyard and examples abound all over the bible if you'll look for it.

Zikkyy:
salary only if the church agrees. i don't think salary is biblical.

Call it allowance , honoraruim or whatever ,but what is wrong with salary? All na pay.

Galatians 6:6
Those who are taught the Word of God should help their teachers by paying them.

1 Timothy 5:17
Pastors who do their work well should be paid well and should be highly appreciated, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching.

@Candour

I commend U for holding up to Image and mediator on this thread. To say the least the thoughts they express on this thread is a mirror of d mindset of most Christians today and it shows the desperate situation we are in today.

I chose not to respond anymore bc there is no basis to converse with men that are thinking like this.

A young lady here in Ibadan who owns Nazareth Home, an orphanage, picks up homeless children from d roads and takes care of them.

I have read stories of the sacrificial ministry of men bringing the gospel to Africa.

The situation we are in today I blame on the gospel of prosperity. It is a gospel Paul prophesied will come when he said the days will come when Men will think that godliness is a means to financial enrichment.

One thing is sure all this Pastor must live aflluently, cannot be found from the NT. It is the reason the Pastors themselves hold unto to tithes, firsfruits and prophet offering too. Pastor too go chop na.

Its pathetic...

Joagbaje:

Call it allowance , honoraruim or whatever ,but what is wrong with salary? All na pay.

Galatians 6:6
Those who are taught the Word of God should help their teachers by paying them.

1 Timothy 5:17
Pastors who do their work well should be paid well and should be highly appreciated, especially those who work hard at both preaching and teaching.

The above quotes are the tragedy of modern day translations. Pls compare those verses to the King James and find their original meaning in the Greek, and U will see there is no such thing as PAY in those verses.

They are the translation by modern day prosperity gospellers to justify Pastors earning CEO salaries.

Period!!!

DrummaBoy:

One thing is sure all this Pastor must live aflluently, cannot be found from the NT. It is the reason the Pastors themselves hold unto to tithes, firsfruits and prophet offering too.

I'm Goshen360 and I ENDORSE this message of the kingdom!!!

What Joagbaje's bible translates as 'pay' in Gal 6:6 is 'all good things' in KJV and 'double honor' in 1Tim 5:17. How all good things can be narrowed down to pay and how double honor can be pinned down as 'pay well', can only be the outcome of prosperity minds. It is evil to add to God's word and it is sin.

I challenge Joagbaje to supply us the version of the bible he uses, the names of the authors and what led to the making of that translation. Also, while at that I also challenge him to dig up the words translated as 'all good things' and 'double honor' in d Greek and show us how those words in anyway means to pay or to pay well.

I am not against paying ministers but in our bid to justify a practise we shouldn't be found twisting and adding to scripture.

No one is saying ministers must not be paid; what we are saying is that the matter of money must be reviewed in church, with the hope of restoring the church to something close to apostolic Christianity. What we have now is a church bowed 2 Mammon!

^ Even their 'pay' shouldn't be a 'fixed' and 'regular' or monthly salary. It should be a form of 'support' to them.

I never start, I dey come !!!

Goshen360:

I'm Goshen360 and I ENDORSE this message of the kingdom!!!

Thank U jare Goshen.

^

There no ONE Apostle that received constant, continuous and monthly 'pay' as salary but support. This support must be from the people's heart and decision as they desire it to be fit towards whatever they want to give. This to me, is even better than 'fixed', constant and continuous 'monthly' salary'. Again, ministry is not about gathering people together and making merchandise of them but a call to service and to serve.

You're in ministry to give to people and the people when taught, in return should by the knowledge of what was taught see the light of the scriptures by the Holy Spirit to extend their pocket to their teacher, NOT their teacher demanding monthly 'pay'. That's exactly what Paul was saying when he said, "don't he have the right to living"?

Many church leaders use Paul's example to justify 'pay' for gospel ministers BUT they also refuse to take the sacrificial decision of Paul when he said, he did not use this right because to advance the gospel. We cannot take one side of Paul's right and leave out his sacrifice - saying, that's his personal decision. Aren't all ministers of the gospel?

Image123:
i do not understand this. Are you saying that we should help others or do to others as we want them to do to us, only if we are expecting assistance from them?

Just letting you know that the bible reference you quoted was not addressing the discussion. Loving my neighbour as myself does not mean i should ensure the pastor is able to do everything i do. am sure he did not take up the pastoral work for the purpose of being able to do all things i want and pray to do.

Image123:
You always have issues, i'm not perturbed.

Issues created by people like you.

nlMediator:
They hate the ministry. In fact, their parents almost regret answering the call.

The problem is that you see no difference between the ministry and secular employment. Maybe going into ministry was a personal decision resulting in regret.

nlMediator:
"WE" run out good people from ministry and turn around to complain that charlatans run the church.

Maybe they were not good enough for the job they were called to do.

nlMediator:
First of all, I should have made clear that the 2 people in my story were classmates - read the same course, the same year and in the same school. So, theoretically, their chances in life should be similar.

It not likely they will have similar success stories to tell at the end of the day. have seen two people graduate from same department, started life in the same institution and yet ended up with totally different stories at the end of the day. We can even compare somebody like Pastor Chris Oyakhilome to his classmates, i wonder the number of classmates (if any) with similar tale.

Joagbaje:
Call it allowance , honoraruim or whatever ,but what is wrong with salary? All na pay.

I don't know why you ask if there is anything wrong with salary. even after i told you there is nothing wrong with it if the parties to the transaction (giver & receiver) agree to a salary structure. The idea of salary will only be wrong if the receiver tricked the giver into agreeing to pay the salary i.e. twisting/mis-interpreting scriptures to justify the salary, especially when the payer decision/judgement been influenced by information the receiver supplied. The paying of salary is not scriptural.

DrummaBoy:

The above quotes are the tragedy of modern day translations. Pls compare those verses to the King James and find their original meaning in the Greek, and U will see there is no such thing as PAY in those verses.

They are the translation by modern day prosperity gospellers to justify Pastors earning CEO salaries.

Period!!!

Joagbaje prefer bible versions designed specially for pastors.

Candour:

My bro, we have the apostles and our Lord as examples in Scriptures and even the prophets of the old testament as examples. Can you point to one that had a smooth ride? have you read Foxe's book of martyrs to see how all the apostles ended their lives? What about Hosea who was forced to marry a prostitute and live with the stigma? how many chariots did Elisha, Elijah, Jeremiah etc have? My bro, If we have to go by the life our forbears of ministry lived, we will find it hard to refer to pastors of today as men of God. Pls hope you dont see Solomon, David in the same mold as Elijah or Elisha?

No matter how we look at it, the service in the vineyard of the Most High God comes with peril, deprivations, etc and that is the truth. The work of the ministry is not a pathway to gain and profit. Paul said as much to Timothy in 1Tim 6:5. Paul described it as the life of a soldier because that is what it is. We Christians must endeavor not to allow our ministers become destitute of resources but a pastor who is called into ministry must be ready to tread a rough road if he accepts it.

@ the bolded, Why can't he change his fortunes if he is opportuned? but saying the congregation or ministry owe him a similar lifestyle to that of the rich elite of his congregation is a totally wrong statement. If it's just a question of meeting needs, it wont be a problem but when our ministers now try to measure the quality of life they live by the number of cars or houses they own thereby competing with the rich elite in their congregation, then i am afraid they've missed it.

This isn't a picture i created bro. It's the reality of the life of a worker in the vineyard and examples abound all over the bible if you'll look for it.

No, the examples you gave do not work. I asked for scriptures - chapter and verse that support the idea that a minister's life outcomes should be different from that of the congregation. You did not provide any, because you have none. Instead, you choose to sensationalize things. The prophets you mentioned had their assignment, and executed it accordingly. That does not in any way suggest that in the OT, all ministers were like Elijah. A more appropriate example would be the priests (and the levites). Was Samuel poor? Were Eli's kids destitute while their neighbors were riding horses? Was Moses poor or living differently from the rest of the Israelites? Besides, our Lord Jesus made clear that His ministry was different from John the Baptist's, which was modelled after Elijah's. He did not live in the bush, dress differently or eat locusts and wild honey. For you to use an example even Jesus did not follow shows how off the mark you are on this issue. Saying that the Apostles died horrific deaths is meaningless in the context of this discussion. The issue is daily living, not manner of death. What makes you think that a guy that rides a BMW cannot die for Jesus, but the guy that owns a bicycle or beetle can? Again, ministry involves sacrifice - nobody is disputing that. The problem is that you're the one defining the sacrifice, not the Lord, not the Bible. Apart from the apostles, can you show me other ministers in the Bible that died the same way? Why didn't all the ministers that succeeded them in the early days of the Church die similarly? Because, they understood everybody has his call. They suffered in their own way. Ministers today suffer in their own way. That suffering does not ALWAYS mean being different from the congregation simply because you accepted the call of God.

God established the right model for ministry in the OT. And Paul adopted it in the Scriptures. That is: the tribe of Levi would not get any land. So they can be poor or different? No, so they would not be distracted. To ensure that they were not deprived economically because of the absence of an important factor of production - land - God arranged for their financial upkeep. Paul made clear that's how it should be. Those arguing differently are doing so out of emotions and human traditions. Not Scriptures.

nlMediator:

No, the examples you gave do not work. I asked for scriptures - chapter and verse that support the idea that a minister's life outcomes should be different from that of the congregation. You did not provide any, because you have none. Instead, you choose to sensationalize things. The prophets you mentioned had their assignment, and executed it accordingly. That does not in any way suggest that in the OT, all ministers were like Elijah. A more appropriate example would be the priests (and the levites). Was Samuel poor? Were Eli's kids destitute while their neighbors were riding horses? Was Moses poor or living differently from the rest of the Israelites? Besides, our Lord Jesus made clear that His ministry was different from John the Baptist's, which was modelled after Elijah's. He did not live in the bush, dress differently or eat locusts and wild honey. For you to use an example even Jesus did not follow shows how off the mark you are on this issue. Saying that the Apostles died horrific deaths is meaningless in the context of this discussion. The issue is daily living, not manner of death. What makes you think that a guy that rides a BMW cannot die for Jesus, but the guy that owns a bicycle or beetle can? Again, ministry involves sacrifice - nobody is disputing that. The problem is that you're the one defining the sacrifice, not the Lord, not the Bible. Apart from the apostles, can you show me other ministers in the Bible that died the same way? Why didn't all the ministers that succeeded them in the early days of the Church die similarly? Because, they understood everybody has his call. They suffered in their own way. Ministers today suffer in their own way. That suffering does not ALWAYS mean being different from the congregation simply because you accepted the call of God.

Incase you do not know, Eli and Samuel's kids you claim were not destitutes are the exact examples of the Charlatans in Christianity today because They were very corrupt. Read 1Sam 2:12-17 to get the gist of Eli's sons which was so bad that God had to get them killed in battle. Read 1Sam 8:1-3 to get the gist of Samuel's sons. infact i'll quote verse 3 here

1Sam 8:3
'And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgement'

From this verse you can make the following deductions
1. Samuel was a honest servant of God who was content with having his needs met
2. His sons were crooks who saw service to God as a means to enrich themselves

Now which of the examples above will you recommend as standard for your ministers today? Any minister of the gospel not content with having his needs met but instead wants to compete with the high fliers in society is a crook and a thief and will inevitably devise schemes to fleece his flock like the children of Eli and Samuel.

No matter how you see it, true gospel stewardship WILL NEVER pay as much as secular pursuits. Christ our Lord did not have cash stored up. The bag Judas kept was nearly empty most times because he too like most pastors today saw the office as one to loot. Our Lord's needs were met whenever they arose like when a fish provided money for tax and that is what the Lord expects of us Christians and i dare say much more of his ministers.

God established the right model for ministry in the OT. And Paul adopted it in the Scriptures. That is: the tribe of Levi would not get any land. So they can be poor or different? No, so they would not be distracted. To ensure that they were not deprived economically because of the absence of an important factor of production - land - God arranged for their financial upkeep. Paul made clear that's how it should be. Those arguing differently are doing so out of emotions and human traditions. Not Scriptures.

The Levites were mandated not to get any land which is a deprivation on its own. The Lord provided 10% for them which was enough to meet there needs particularly when you remember they had to share this 10% with the widows, orphans, Strangers and other needy people in Isreal. No one here has said ministers should not get support from their congregations, at least i NEVER SAID that. what i oppose is you saying your friend who went into the ministry deserves everything that your friend who took a secular job got. You mentioned houses, cars, luxuries etc. The gospel is NOT a business. Your pastor friend should be happy God counted him worthy of a place in the vineyard instead of lamenting about the material things he's missing. God promised to meet needs, he didn't promise a chateau or golden chariots. If he's regretting, he should check; maybe God didn't call him after all.

Goshen360: ^

There no ONE Apostle that received constant, continuous and monthly 'pay' as salary but support. This support must be from the people's heart and decision as they desire it to be fit towards whatever they want to give. This to me, is even better than 'fixed', constant and continuous 'monthly' salary'. Again, ministry is not about gathering people together and making merchandise of them but a call to service and to serve.

You're in ministry to give to people and the people when taught, in return should by the knowledge of what was taught see the light of the scriptures by the Holy Spirit to extend their pocket to their teacher, NOT their teacher demanding monthly 'pay'. That's exactly what Paul was saying when he said, "don't he have the right to living"?

Many church leaders use Paul's example to justify 'pay' for gospel ministers BUT they also refuse to take the sacrificial decision of Paul when he said, he did not use this right because to advance the gospel. We cannot take one side of Paul's right and leave out his sacrifice - saying, that's his personal decision. Aren't all ministers of the gospel?

You're right that people giving to ministers is even better than salary. That's why I don't understand what the fuss is about. Do people realize that virtually none of the big ministers of today - be it Oyedepo, Osteen, Prince - receive a salary? And they are even richer than when they did.

However, I disagree with you that because the Apostles did not receive a salary, it becomes a standard for us to follow today. We're bound by Scriptures, not examples that were informed by the context of their existence. Neither Jesus nor Paul married. Why are you not insisting that ministers not marry? Oh, I forgot some christians already do. It's called the Catholic Church. And neither Jesus nor some of the early apostles received formal education. So, why not discourage formal training for ministers or even formal education beyond elementary schooll? Oh, some christians already do. It's called the Amish.

nlMediator:

You're right that people giving to ministers is even better than salary. That's why I don't understand what the fuss is about. Do people realize that virtually none of the big ministers of today - be it Oyedepo, Osteen, Prince - receive a salary? And they are even richer than when they did.

However, I disagree with you that because the Apostles did not receive a salary, it becomes a standard for us to follow today. We're bound by Scriptures, not examples that were informed by the context of their existence. Neither Jesus nor Paul married. Why are you not insisting that ministers not marry? Oh, I forgot some christians already do. It's called the Catholic Church. And neither Jesus nor some of the early apostles received formal education. So, why not discourage formal training for ministers or even formal education beyond elementary schooll? Oh, some christians already do. It's called the Amish.

Contentment is the key bro. Contentment! Contentment!! Contentment!!!

The way the MOG you mentioned above amass material things will almost make an ungrounded person suspect there is no place called heaven. I mean if we are eager to be with the Lord, why the craze to acquire things and more things and more things? It's simple: They lack any fiber of contentment in their body and souls.

1John 2:15
'Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the father is not in him.'

'The church started in Jerusalem as a movement.......Got to Rome and became an institution..........spread all over Europe and became a culture...........landed in America and became an industry....a very BIG INDUSTRY but the Head of the church is coming back for the movement.'

Saw the above somewhere on the net. Just thought i should share it because it's the American version that is spreading like wild fire all over Nigeria and trying to drown the voice of the true Gospel.

Candour:

Incase you do not know, Eli and Samuel's kids you claim were not destitutes are the exact examples of the Charlatans in Christianity today because They were very corrupt. Read 1Sam 2:12-17 to get the gist of Eli's sons which was so bad that God had to get them killed in battle. Read 1Sam 8:1-3 to get the gist of Samuel's sons. infact i'll quote verse 3 here

1Sam 8:3
'And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgement'

From this verse you can make the following deductions
1. Samuel was a honest servant of God who was content with having his needs met
2. His sons were crooks who saw service to God as a means to enrich themselves

Now which of the examples above will you recommend as standard for your ministers today? Any minister of the gospel not content with having his needs met but instead wants to compete with the high fliers in society is a crook and a thief and will inevitably devise schemes to fleece his flock like the children of Eli and Samuel.

No matter how you see it, true gospel stewardship WILL NEVER pay as much as secular pursuits. Christ our Lord did not have cash stored up. The bag Judas kept was nearly empty most times because he too like most pastors today saw the office as one to loot. Our Lord's needs were met whenever they arose like when a fish provided money for tax and that is what the Lord expects of us Christians and i dare say much more of his ministers.

The Levites were mandated not to get any land which is a deprivation on its own. The Lord provided 10% for them which was enough to meet there needs particularly when you remember they had to share this 10% with the widows, orphans, Strangers and other needy people in Isreal. No one here has said ministers should not get support from their congregations, at least i NEVER SAID that. what i oppose is you saying your friend who went into the ministry deserves everything that your friend who took a secular job got. You mentioned houses, cars, luxuries etc. The gospel is NOT a business. Your pastor friend should be happy God counted him worthy of a place in the vineyard instead of lamenting about the material things he's missing. God promised to meet needs, he didn't promise a chateau or golden chariots. If he's regretting, he should check; maybe God didn't call him after all.

I ENDORSE this message 100%

nlMediator:

You're right that people giving to ministers is even better than salary. That's why I don't understand what the fuss is about. Do people realize that virtually none of the big ministers of today - be it Oyedepo, Osteen, Prince - receive a salary? And they are even richer than when they did.

Simple and plain.

However, I disagree with you that because the Apostles did not receive a salary, it becomes a standard for us to follow today. We're bound by Scriptures, not examples that were informed by the context of their existence. Neither Jesus nor Paul married. Why are you not insisting that ministers not marry? .

Applause!!
Thread closed !!

nlMediator:

You're right that people giving to ministers is even better than salary. That's why I don't understand what the fuss is about. Do people realize that virtually none of the big ministers of today - be it Oyedepo, Osteen, Prince - receive a salary? And they are even richer than when they did.

They don't collect salaries because the church account is merely an appendage of their personal account. They already have unfettered access to the church's finances to spend as they please so why should they restrict themselves to salaries?

I for instance run my own personal business and I don't collect a salary from it but that does not mean I am not the chief beneficiary of the business so you guys should stop playing on our intelligence.