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|Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by DrummaBoy(m): 8:43pm On Jul 13, 2013|
While laying down a point on a thread Goshen 360 opened (https://www.nairaland.com/1355903/saved-still-bound-loose-him), I made this comment:
And just before Olaadegbu and his fellow judaizers begin to grin from ear to ear, note that the fact that Luther spoke against antinmonians does not mean he was legalistic. Luther taught justification by faith and insisted the word 'alone' must be added to Romans 1:16;17, because the German language demanded it.
Bidam took me up on the bolded and said I should make available the qoutation
I replied him thus
If I give you the reference you request for, O Bidam, will it make U change your position on the tithe?
As I expected he was not satisfied and so rather than derail Goshen's thread, I accessed Dr Russel Kelly's website and dug up those quotations for him and Olaadegbu to realize that the tithe was not supported by some reputable men of God in the past, including John Wesley, that the Deeper Life looks up to in life and doctrine. Dr Russel Kelly doctoral theses was on the tithe and from it he wrote the book SHOULD THE CHURCH TEACH TITHING? Which can be accessed from this website http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/.
All the qoutations I have were gotten from this website. All references from where the qouatations were obtained are place next to the quotations and if we have any problem with them, or need to see the context in which they were made, we can make ready use of our search engines, e.g, google.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by DrummaBoy(m): 8:52pm On Jul 13, 2013|
Before I proceed to make the quotations, this are a list of contemporary/reputable men of God who never taught tithing, or who at one point or the other opposed tithing. Many of them are from denominations, like Baptist, that teach tithing, but they did not. They include:
Craig Blomberg, Geoffrey W. Bromiley, F. F. Bruce, Lewis Sperry Chafer; James Darby, Alfred Edersheim, Walter Elwell, Everett F. Harrison, Carl F. Henry, C. H. Lenski, Zola Levitt, John MacArthur, J. Vernon McGee, Bruce Metzger, Moody Bible Institute, Mike Oppenheimer, John Owen, Thomas E Peck, Dwight Pentecost, John Piper, Charles Ryrie, Thomas R Schreiner, C. I. Scofield, Charles H Spurgeon, Charles Swindoll, Merrill Unger, Spiros Zodhiates. Note: Dr. James Kennedy is more in agreement with our position than he is against it.
Of course these are not all the bible scholars in the world that reject tithing, but some of us may be able to identify with some of the above.
This is what Martin Luther had to say on tithing (qouting Russel):
In a sermon preached on August 27, 1525 Dr. Martin Luther used the same Old Covenant/New Covenant hermeneutics presented in this book to oppose tithing. His were not out of context or random remarks about the Law and tithing. Rather Dr. Luther was speaking precisely to the point because his sermon title was How Christians Should Regard Moses. The entire document can be found using Internet search engines. A few excerpts: “The Law of Moses Binds Only the Jews and Not the Gentiles. Here the Law of Moses has its place. It is no longer binding on us because it was given only to the people ofIsrael. And Israel accepted this law for itself and its descendants, while the Gentiles were excluded.” “Moses has nothing to do with us. If I were to accept Moses in one commandment, I would have to accept the entire Moses.” “We will not regard him as our lawgiver - unless he agrees with both the New Testament and the natural law.” “For not one little period in Moses pertains to us.” “But the other commandments of Moses, which are not by nature, the Gentiles do not hold. Nor do these pertain to the Gentiles, such as the TITHE and others equally fine which I wish we had too.”
This is what John Calvin said about Tithing (although he did not mention tithing, he was talking about the law; but with vieled reference to all practices under the law which must include tithing):
(Culled from)Institutes 4.20.14, 16 and comments on Rom. 1:21-27 and 2:14-15
***Calvin argued, "I would have preferred to pass over this matter in utter silence if I were not aware that here many dangerously go astray. For there are some who deny that a commonwealth is duly framed which neglects the political system of Moses, and is ruled by the common laws of nations. Let other men consider how perilous and seditious this notion is; it will be enough for me to have proved it false and foolish . . . It is a fact that the law of God which we call the moral law is nothing else than a testimony of natural law and of that conscience which God has engraved upon the minds of men. Consequently, the entire scheme of this equity of which we are now speaking has been prescribed in it. Hence, this equity alone must be the goal and rule and limit of all laws. Whatever laws shall be framed to that rule, directed to that goal, bound by that limit, there is no reason why we should disapprove of them, howsoever they may differ from the Jewish law, or among themselves . . . For the statement of some, that the law of God given through Moses is dishonored when it is abrogated and new laws preferred to it, is utterly vain. For others are not preferred to it when they are more approved, not by a simple comparison, but with regard to the condition of times, place, and nation; or when that law is abrogated which was never enacted for us. For the Lord through the hand of Moses did not give that law to be proclaimed among all nations and to be in force everywhere; but when he had taken the Jewish nation into his safekeeping, defense, and protection, he also willed to be a lawgiver especially to it; and -- as became a wise lawgiver -- he had special concern for it in making its laws.
Lastly, here, we qoute the prince of preachers himself, Charles Haddon Spurgeon:
Culled from a message preached, APRIL 18, 1880, SERMON 2716;
“But you are not under a system similar to that by which the Jews were obliged to pay tithes to the priests. If there were any such rule laid down in the Gospel, it would destroy the beauty of spontaneous giving and take away all the bloom from the fruit of your liberality! There is no law to tell me what I should give my father on his birthday. There is no rule laid down in any law book to decide what present a husband should give to his wife, nor what token of affection we should bestow upon others whom we love. No, the gift must be a free one, or it has lost all its sweetness.”
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by DrummaBoy(m): 8:57pm On Jul 13, 2013|
Then we have qoutation from John Wesley:
Wesley, John, Explanatory Notes (tithing) (s.v. "1 Corinthians 16:2)
” According to this lowest rule of Christian prudence, if a man when he has or gains one pound give a tenth to God, when he has or gains an hundred he will give the tenth of this also. And yet I show unto you a more excellent way. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Stint yourself to no proportion at all. But lend to God all you can.
And then we have a qoute from Billy Graham himself, including the website the qoute is obtained from:
It (tithing) is not mentioned in the New Testament except where it is describing Old Testament practices or in the Gospels where Jesus is addressing people who were under the Old Testament law. Note Jesus' comments to the Pharisees in Luke 11:42? A New Testament teaching on giving which may be helpful to you is found in 1 Corinthians 16:2.... This passage brings out four points: we should give individually, regularly, methodically, and proportionately. The matter of your giving is between you and God, and He always takes into account our circumstances. He knows when they are beyond our power to direct and control. The important thing is that we see giving as a privilege and not a burden. It should not be out of a sense of duty, but rather out of love for the Lord and a desire to see His kingdom advanced. Second Corinthians 9:6-7..... What has priority in our lives? Is Christ really first--or do we put ourselves and our own desires first? Make sure Christ is first in your life, and then ask Him to guide you. Note: Billy Graham himself does teach tithing. http://www.billygraham.org/LFA_Article.asp?ArticleID=28
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Nobody: 9:06pm On Jul 13, 2013|
Let me get this straight...
Tithing is wrong because some 'reputable MoG' do not like it or spoke against it?
Assuming it was possible for some of these 'reputable MoG' to come back tomorrow to tell us that there is no God, do we accept it?
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by DrummaBoy(m): 9:12pm On Jul 13, 2013|
I took my time in the OP to explain why I opened this thread. I was asked to supply the quotation but so as not to derail the thread, I opened this one. I have already mentioned that men's words is not our ultimate authority but so as to show that if some oppose tithing today, they are not doing anything new, because reputable men of God in the past have done so too.
Also, another reason why the subject of tithing was never contentious at all in those days was because it was not widely practiced. The few times it came up, it was easy to relegate it to the position it belongs: The law of Moses. But by the 19th century when institutional churches began to emerge, there was a greater need for money and so tithing gained popularity. The same thing is happening today with Firstfruits. So that in days to come, it will become prevalent in churches if not curbed today.
I hope I have been able to make myself clear?
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Nobody: 9:24pm On Jul 13, 2013|
I must confess that I did not read the OP as I should have...
Anyways, your response was very helpful in making your viewpoint on the matter clearer....
I quite agree with your views on tithing to a large extent but still I do not think that one who wants to tithe of his own free will should be discouraged from doing so...
It would be right however, to discourage anyone who tithe for the wrong reasons and I must confess that it would be very difficult to see one who tithe for good reasons but still there are people who tithe because of the love they have for God...this in my view is not wrong.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by DrummaBoy(m): 9:31pm On Jul 13, 2013|
Here is a classical rebutal (almost word for word) of R C Sproul's essay on tithing which [b]Olaadegbu [/b]put up on NL once:
Sproul: God answers his question, “Will man rob God?” saying, “Yet you are robbing me.” The Israelite response is: “How have we robbed you?” To which God replies, “In your tithes and contributions” (Malachi 3:.
Kelly: Sproul's entire presentation is built on the presumption that God commanded Gentiles and the Church to tithe. In reality the OT tithes were only commanded to food producers who lived inside Israel. Tithes could not come from one's craft or from outside God's holy land of Israel. And tithes were never money in the 16 texts which describe its contents. Yet money is mentioned over 40 times before true biblical tithes are mentioned in Leviticus 27.
Sproul: God announces that to withhold the full measure of the tithe that He requires from His people is to be guilty of robbing God Himself.
Kelly: In Nehemiah 10:37b-38 the people of Malachi's time were commanded to bring the first whole tithe to the Levitical cities (not to the Temple) where the Levites and priests together received them where they lived and needed the tithes for food. Therefore Malachi 3:10 is either contradicting Nehemiah 10:37b or it has been drastically misinterpreted. Since only the Levites and priests had been commanded to bring portions of the tithes to the Temple in Nehemiah 10:37, then Malachi 3:10 must only be addressed to dishonest priests. These priests are also mentioned and cursed in Malachi 1:13-14 2:1-2; 2:17-3:5 and Nehemiah 13:5-10.
Sproul: Because of this, He pronounces a curse upon the whole nation and commands them afresh to bring to Him all of the tithe.
Kelly: In continuing the curse of the priests from 1:14 and 2:2, God only cursed "the whole nation of you --of you priests. This is consistent with the other curses and it is consistent with Neh 13:5-10. Malachi's audience had asked God to curse them for disobedience in Nehemiah 10:29. Galatians 3:10-13 makes it clear that no Christian can be cursed unless Christ died in vain. God will not re-impose a curse upon his children which had been lifted at Calvary.
Sproul: When we think of tithing in Old Testament categories, we understand that the requirement involves returning to God the first fruits of one’s prosperity.
Kelly: Wrong. First-fruits and tithes were never the same thing in the OT. In Deuteronomy 26:1-4 firstfruits are very small token offerings which would fit into a small hand-carried basket. The first wave sheaf at Pentecost was but a single sheaf for the nation. And Nehemiah 10:35-38 makes it clear that first-fruits are not tithes. In 1st Timothy 5:8 Paul tells Christians to first buy medicine, food and essential shelter in order to avoid being worse than the heathen. It is wrong to delude poor struggling believers into giving the first of their Social Security and Medicaid checks to the church. Not even James Kennedy, Sproul's former companion, taught that.
Sproul: We are required to give ten percent of our gross annual income or gain.
Kelly: Tithes are never called income and never came from outside Israel. Farmers and merchants must first deduct business expenses before calculating any gain. If one had to choose between giving the first to the church and buying pain killers and medicine, God is not greedy and He understands.
Sproul: If a shepherd’s flock produced ten new lambs, the requirement was that one of those lambs be offered to God. This offering is from the top.
Kelly: Read Leviticus 27:30-34. The tenth of food (not income) was the tithe. Not even the best was the tithe. "Off the top" is a reference to pagan spoils of war in Genesis 14 in Hebrews 7. It is not a reference to Leviticus 27.
Sproul: It is not an offering that is given after other expenses are met or after other taxes have been paid.
Kelly: This is manipulation to jump from legitimate tithed animals to money before any other expenses are paid. Again 1st Timothy 5:8 has precedence.
Sproul: … ninety-six percent of professing evangelical Christians regularly, systematically, habitually, and impenitently rob God of what belongs to Him.
Kelly: Sproul assumes that the 96% who are not giving 10% of their income to the church are healthy and wealthy. Perhaps if the church returned to personal evangelism and saw the world going to hell without Christ, things would change drastically. Much of the blame must fall on preachers for not inspiring and not motivated their congregations with strong solid sermons which call sin by its name.
Sproul: It also means that ninety-six percent of us are for this reason exposing ourselves to a divine curse upon our lives.
Kelly: This is goofy theology coming from one who should know better. Sproul, who is supposed to be Calvinist and a Predestinationist teaches that God is responsible for both justification and sanctification. If God (he teaches) wants a believer to tithe, then God will override the will and that believer will tithe! How can God allow a CURSED believer into heaven? Was that believer never saved, or did that believer fall from grace contrary to Calvinism? Sproul is inconsistent with the Bible and with his own theological hermeneutic.
Sproul: Whether this percentage is accurate, one thing is certain — it is clear that the overwhelming majority of professing evangelical Christians do not tithe. This immediately raises the question: “Why?” How is it possible that somebody who has given his life to Christ can withhold their financial gifts from Him? I have heard many excuses or explanations for this.
Kelly: Perhaps we should be asking ourselves "Why are they not giving enough?" How much pulpit-thumping solid Bible preaching is found in most churches? People put their money where their heart is. Is their heart in the right place or are the preachers somewhat to blame for inferior inspiration?
Sproul: The most common is the assertion that the tithe is part of the Old Testament law that has passed away with the coming of the New Testament.
Kelly: The preacher blames the congregation instead of accepting part of the blame himself.
Sproul: This statement is made routinely in spite of the complete lack of New Testament evidence for it. Nowhere in the New Testament does it teach us that the principle of the tithe has been abrogated.
Where in the Bible Were Tithes Abolished?
1. WHO #1: The Levitical servants to the priests who received the first whole tithe have been abolished. See Numbers 18:21-24. Modern equivalents to the Levites are unpaid ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, etc.
2. WHO #2: OT priests who received a tenth of the tithe (only 1 per cent) have been abolished. See Num 18:25-28 and Neh 10:38.
3. WHAT: The definition of tithes as only food miraculously increased by God from inside His holy land of Israel has been abolished and replaced with the false unbiblical definition of income. See Leviticus 27:30-34 and 14 other texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Yet money was common in Genesis.
4. WHERE: The destination of the OT tithes first to the Levitical cities some to the Temple has been abolished. See Neh 10:37b and Mal 3:10.
5. WHEN: The time to tithe has been abolished. The Levitical tithe was paid yearly in the Levitical cities. The second festival tithe was eaten at the three festivals. The third poor tithe was kept in the home every third year. Tithes totaled 23 1/3 per cent.
6. WHY #1: The covenant which prescribed them was abolished per Heb 8:8-13; Gal 4:21-26' 2 Cor 3:6-10.
7. WHY #2: The "commandment" for Levites and priests to collect tithes was "annulled" per Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18.
8. WHY #3: The law which condemned believers has been rendered of no effect when the believer died in Christ per Romans 7:4. No law can tell a dead person what to do.
9. HOW #1: Jesus abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances per Eph 2:13. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.
10. HOW $2: Jesus blotted out the handwriting of ordinances, per Col 2:14. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.
11. HOW #3: The Temple which tithes supported was abolished in AD 70. God's temple is now within each believer per 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19-20.
12. HOW #4: The priesthood which was supported by tithes was abolished in AD 70. God's priesthood is now within every believer per 1st Peter 23:9-10.
13. HOW #5: The blessings and curses of tithing as part of the whole law have been abolished per Galatians 3:10-13.
To be continued
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by DrummaBoy(m): 9:31pm On Jul 13, 2013|
Would you continue to send money to a church after
1. The building is destroyed?
2. The preacher has been defrocked?
3. The workers have found other jobs?
4. The members have all left?
5. The land has been inhabited by non religious people?
6. The purpose for the church no longer exists?
7. You have died?
Sproul: The New Testament does teach us, however, that the new covenant is superior to the old covenant. It is a covenant that gives more blessings to us than the old covenant did. It is a covenant that with its manifold blessings imposes greater responsibilities than the Old Testament did. If anything, the structure of the new covenant requires a greater commitment to financial stewardship before God than that which was required in the old covenant.
Kelly: All of this is true. However it is setting up the uninformed believer to be told a lie in order to teach tithing.
Sproul: That is to say, the starting point of Christian giving is the tithe. The tithe is not an ideal that only a few people reach but rather should be the base minimum from which we progress.
Kelly: The great lie is that the OT tithe was the starting point, the base minimum, the expectation, the training wheels and a good place to start. If this were true (and it most certainly is NOT true) then NT giving must BEGIN at 10% and go beyond that point FOR EVERYBODY. The truth is that OT tithes could only come from food producers who lived inside Israel and it could only come from God's miraculous increase. It could not come from what man produced and it could not come from outside Israel. Therefore, since the presumption is false, then the conclusion reached by the false presumption is false also. Jesus, Peter and Paul did not qualify as tithe-payers and there is not a single biblical text to prove otherwise. Christian giving is not based on a minimum starting point. It is wholly of the free heart and is motivated by love for God and lost souls. If Christians are not giving enough (and they are not), it is because the pastors are guilty of not preaching motivating biblical sermons. The solution is not a return to legalism and tithing in the Old Covenant.
Sproul: Church history also bears witness that many in the early church did not consider the tithe as having been abrogated in the new covenant.
Kelly: This is not true. I have a shelf full of histories of the Christian Church which cover all major denominations. NONE of the church historians teach that the early church taught tithing for the first 200 years after Calvary. They all teach that early church leaders were self-employed!
Sproul: One of the earliest (turn of the second century) extrabiblical documents that survives to this day is the book of the Didache. The Didache gives practical instruction for Christian living. In the Didache, the principle of the giving of the first fruits or the tithe is mentioned as a basic responsibility for every Christian.
Kelly: Firstfruits, yes. Tithes, never. It is amazing that Sproul omitted the names of Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexander and Tertullian who opposed tithing. Paragraph XI says "if he (the evangelist) asks for money he is a false prophet. Paragraph XII says that evangelists who want to stay must get a job. Paragraph XIII says to give first-fruits to the prophet or to the poor. It is shameful to ignore Paragraphs XI and XII.
Sproul: A second argument that people give to avoid the tithe is that they “cannot afford it.” What that statement really means is that they cannot pay their tithe and pay all the other expenses they have incurred.
Kelly: 1 Tim 5:8 "But if any provide not for his own, and especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel." The great sin of modern man is living beyond his/her means. Most of us need to cut back and we will only do that when saving souls becomes more important than buying expensive homes, cars and toys.
Sproul: Again, in their minds the tithe is the last resort in the budget. Their giving to God is something that is at the bottom of their list of priorities. It’s a weak argument before God to say, “Lord, I didn’t tithe because I couldn’t afford it” — especially when we consider that the poorest among us has a higher standard of living than ninety-nine percent of the people who have ever walked on the face of the earth.
Kelly: Replace the word "tithe" with "give" and I will agree with you. Also, accept some of the blame as a preacher.
Sproul: There are many more excuses that people give to avoid this responsibility, yet the New Testament tells us: “Let the thief no longer steal” (Eph. 2:28a).
Kelly: And Ephesians Eph 2:14-16 says "For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby." In the OT only Hebrews were required to tithe as an ordinance/statute which they did not use to convert Gentiles. In the NT God has joined Hebrew and Gentiles, not by forcing both to keep the Law, but by breaking down the middle wall of commandments contained in ordinances which surely included tithing from Numbers 18.
Sproul: If we have been guilty of stealing from God in the past by withholding our tithe from Him, that behavior must cease immediately and give way to a resolution to begin tithing at once, no matter what it costs.
Kelly: According to Numbers 18 it cost the OT tithe-recipient land and inheritance rights. Do you own and inherit land while receiving tithes? How do you justify that? Are you a Levite or OT priest living in a Levitical city? Do you give the first whole tithe to the servants such as ushers, deacons, choir and musicians as required in Numbers 18? Do you only allow ordained preachers inside the sanctuary? Do you kill anybody who dares to worship God directly? These are all part of the same tithing statute in Numbers 18.
Sproul: It’s an interesting phenomenon in the life of the church, that people who in 1960 gave a dollar to the offering plate every week, still give that same dollar today. Everything else in their living costs has been adjusted to inflation except their giving. We also have to remind ourselves that if we give gifts to God, we cannot call them tithes if these gifts fall beneath the level of ten percent.
Kelly: You cannot legitimately call them tithes even if they are ten per cent. True biblical tithes were always only food from inside Israel. Although money was very common even in Genesis, money is never included in 16 texts which describe the contents of the tithe for over 1500 years from Leviticus to Luke. Does that not make you wonder even a little that your definition of a biblical tithe is wrong?
Sproul: One of the sad realities of failure to tithe is that in so doing we not only are guilty of robbing God, but we also rob ourselves of the joy of giving and of the blessings that follow from it. I have yet to meet a person who tithes who has expressed to me regret for being one who tithes. On the contrary, I hear from them not a sense of judgment towards those who don’t give but rather a sense of compassion toward them. Frequently, I hear tithers saying, “People who don’t tithe just don’t know what they’re missing.”
Kelly: And how many tens of thousands of faithful tithers and lottery players in the ghettos are still dirt-poor and uneducated while their preachers live higher lifestyles? Why don't we hear from these?
Sproul: It is a cliché and a truism that you can’t out-give God. That statement has become a cliché because it is so true.
Kelly: Tithe-teachers are full of clichés which are not biblical: minimum, expectation, beginning point, good place to start, training wheels. None of these are biblical because there was no minimum beginning point except for food producers who lived inside Israel. Tithing is a scam and a sham.
Sproul: In the text in Malachi, we find something exceedingly rare coming from the lips of God. Here God challenges His people to put Him to a test: “Put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need” (3:10).
Kelly: This is poor hermeneutics. The law was an indivisible whole and the whole law was a test --not merely tithing. Obey ALL to be blessed; break ONE to be cursed. Malachi's audience asked God to curse them for breaking any part of His law in Nehemiah 10:29 and they are reminded again of this in Malachi 4:4. Galatians 3:10-13 clearly replaces Malachi 3:10-12 for Hebrews. It is impossible to expect God to bless you because of obedience to one part of His Old Covenant law when you are breaking hundreds of other parts.
Sproul: Have you put God to that test? Have you tried Him to see if He will not open heaven itself and empty His own treasuries upon you? We need to stop robbing Him and thus receive from Him the blessing that He promises.
Kelly: God cannot and does not bless New Covenant believers because of a conditional promise made to Old Covenant Israel. It is absurd to say that God will bless you for obedience to only one command out of over 600.
Sproul: Dr. R.C. Sproul is founder and president of Ligonier Ministries and senior minister of preaching and teaching at Saint Andrew's in Sanford, Florida, and he is author of the book Faith Alone.
Kelly: Dr. Russell Earl Kelly is the author of Should the Church Teach Tithing? A Theologian's Conclusions about a Taboo Doctrine. Faith alone should mean faith alone and not faith plus works. What happened to Sproul's sermons about justification by faith and the imputed righteousness of the believer? When he is not discussing tithing, he is teaching that believers stand before God in the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ as holy, perfect and sinless. However, while discussing tithing he depicts the believer who does not tithe as being under a curse. He is guilty of the sin Paul rebuked in Galatians 3:1-5 and 1:8-9. He is teaching that we are saved by grace through faith alone but we are kept saved by works of the law. By adding works back into the law he himself falls under the personal curse Paul invokes in Galatians 1:8-9.
Sproul: For more than thirty years, Dr. R.C. Sproul has thoroughly and concisely analyzed weighty theological, philosophical, and biblical topics in Right Now Counts Forever, drawing out practical applications for the Christian in his own engaging style.
Kelly: Sproul has left the roots of his own hermeneutics and theology when he adds tithing back into the grace and faith of the New Covenant. I challenge him to a full-scale debate on the subject.
Russell Earl Kelly, PHD
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by DrummaBoy(m): 9:45pm On Jul 13, 2013|
Strykt, I appreciate your response.
You know, yesterday night, I woke up to study scriptures and I came across Romans 14. In fact, I spent the night perusing this scriptures:
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
And I felt instinctively that this was God's all time position on the tithe. From this scriptures we can get three things from the bolded:
1. We are not to judge other Christians on light matters of scriptures, but focus on the weightier matters. And I believe from Jesus' own words on tithe in Matthew 23:23, tithe was a light matter.
2. Whatever we do, we must do it from conviction: faith. Let every man be fully convinced in himself: means that every man should be given the liberty to weigh the whole argument and decide for himself what he wants to do. No church or preacher should do this for believers and this applies to the tithe too. Our contention with the judaizers on this forum is that they tell us there is no other way than to tithe and they get the proper response: there is no other way but not to tithe. But scripture wants every one to decide for himself; and no man should be bound into fear of loosing his salvation, or curses, to tithe.
3. The man that tithes, to the Lord he tithes. The man that does not tithe, but gives from a free will, to the Lord his does this and no man should be condemned for taking either position. E.g, my wife tithes. I don't. If someday she understand the issue like I do and stops fine; if not, great. But my children will hear the whole argument and decide for themselves what they will do.
But let us not loose focus of the purpose of the thread, that great men of God in time past, men God used, have themselves either not tithed or not preached tithing. And every man has the right today to decide which position he chooses to take on the subject.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Goshen360(m): 10:12pm On Jul 13, 2013|
Waiting for Olaadegbu and his offspring, Bidam and perhaps, other Judaizers will come also.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by MostHigh: 10:48pm On Jul 13, 2013|
Goshen360: Waiting for Olaadegbu and his offspring, Bidam and perhaps, other Judaizers will come also.
The One you hail as your master Yashua ibn joseph was a true Judaizer as scripture confirms
You can be exactly as the master is, but not greater remember?
Why are you trying to be greater than yashua mr Goshen?
Lawless son of a lawless father.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Goshen360(m): 11:50pm On Jul 13, 2013|
King James Bible
Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2 Corinthians 5:16
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Goshen360(m): 1:55am On Jul 14, 2013|
Just a confirmation to the above ^ , these men of God and some not mentioned above are favourites in my library. However, I still do not just take their teachings for what is taught, I dig deeper to fully understand. John MacArthur of Grace Community Church is most radical of them all in this present times.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Nobody: 6:38am On Jul 14, 2013|
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by DrummaBoy(m): 11:19am On Jul 14, 2013|
This a presentation by JOHN OWEN on the tithe matter
He is here writing a commentary on Hebrews 7 (Pls forbear with the Victorian English)
[Hebrews 7]:2. If the strict legal course of tithing be intended, it cannot be proved from this text [Hebrews 7] nor from any other instance before the law;
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by DrummaBoy(m): 11:22am On Jul 14, 2013|
And this is a more contemporary one from Frank Viola. Quoting from his Straight Talk to Elders (Tithing)
If we approach the New Testament by lifting verses from various letters and putting them together, we can build a case that tithing is a New Testament practice. And therefore we can tell God's people that they must tithe. But if you look at the story of the first-century church, you will discover that the Christians did not pay tithes. It is not there, brothers. It is not there. I will add something to this. The early Christians recognized that the tithe was part of the Old Covenant. The tithe was Israel's income tax to support the temple and to help the Levites, who were not given an inheritance. But it was also for the purpose of supporting the widows, the fatherless, the poor, and the strangers. This rarely gets mentioned when ministers preach on tithing today. Nevertheless, Jesus Christ has put to death that whole system. Today, all of us, all of God's people, are functioning priests. We, the church--God's people--are the temple. Now here is something that I don't think any of you know. Historically, you cannot find any Christians tithing until the eighth century! The eighth century. This is historical fact. The Christians in the first century did not tithe. The Christians in the second century did not tithe. The Christians in the third century did not tithe. It wasn't until 700 years passed that tithing became a Christian institution. But that's not all. Brothers, it wasn't until the fourth century--under Constantine the Roman emperor who converted to Christianity and made a Christian state out of the Empire--it wasn't until Constantine that the church had a paid clergy. Church leaders did not receive a salary from God's people until the days of Constantine. Do you understand? Tithes were not practiced among the Christians until eight hundred years passed. It was not part of the first-century church's practice. It was part of the Law. And we have been freed from the Law. I know that Melchizedek was given tithes by Abraham. And I understand that this happened before the Law. But, brothers, may I make this observation? Abraham gave tithes to Melchizedek one time. So if you wish to hang tithing around the neck of God's people by using Abraham, then you can only use it to support a one-time tithe.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Goshen360(m): 11:37am On Jul 14, 2013|
^ Weldone my dear brother.
The best argument to answer the Abraham one time tithe is not even that he gave it one time. It is the truth that, the Law was not in effect at that time and where there's no law, there's no sin. I know a man in the flesh on this forum that will argue that, Jesus only said you must be born again JUST ONE TIME and today we are all born again so what difference does the 'one time' makes? Therefore, there's no existing or official law binding Abraham to continue to tithe, I have paid tithe in the past more than once, can I be justified as someone who paid tithe to the Lord also considering I have done it more than once? They should answer this question.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Nobody: 11:47am On Jul 14, 2013|
Thanks Goshen, but even John MacArthur does not teach 100% truth, we should really stop seeing these men as infallible .
For example John is a Calvinist, and he believes in many traditional dogmas that do not line up with scripture.
Overall he is zealous and stands for holiness and love, so I like him, but , like the Bereans did to Paul and Paul did to Peter, I do not take everything people say as TRUTH , until it has been tested with the word of GOD and if there is one prayer I pray a lot these days, it is GOD please give me more and more and more wisdom.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Nobody: 11:58am On Jul 14, 2013|
As much as I see what u are trying to do, I fear it would only be futile. The church has been instutitionalized. There is so much money at stake now. Most pastors got their "calling" because of the money. Others who got the true calling and dont even believe in tithing are being influenced by the majority.
I once used to attend a church were the pastor started threnghtening that he wont be conducting any marriage or burial ceremony for any family who doesnt pay tithes regularly. And that they will start keeping a list of tithe payers. I have seen a pastor who became hostile and indirectly pronouncing curses on the altar on people because they didnt give as much as he expected for a church building. That day scared me sh!tless. Must have been the last day I took any pastor seriously.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Goshen360(m): 12:01pm On Jul 14, 2013|
You are right 100% my dear brother. That's why I said, I don't just take what they teach, I search out the truth and discard what doesn't align with the new covenant where I or we belong. I don't quite agree on some MacArthur's teachings to be honest, just as you said. You remember one time we talked about on a thread how we study the word and we said, we both study but compare from other's teaching if we are in line just to check what we study? That's why I can stand by whatever I say and answer to scrutiny of my teachings. I don't really take them as my teachers but I do have their materials as part of my study materials in my hard copy library.
Bless you for great job you doing here, pointing men to Christ!
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Goshen360(m): 12:05pm On Jul 14, 2013|
PhenomenonVFX: As much as I see what u are trying to do, I fear it would only be futile. The church has been instutitionalized. There is so much money at stake now. Most pastors got their "calling" because of the money. Others who got the true calling and dont even believe in tithing are being influenced by the majority.
We understand all of these but we don't relent in our effort. More and more people are coming to the revelation of the truth. Don't discourage our brother. As the tithe collectors are not tired yet, we too aren't giving up. We shall spread the goodnews and free believers from the tithe gospel.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Nobody: 12:07pm On Jul 14, 2013|
Thanks Bro, please point me out on any error or teaching, I do not and never will see my self as an authority on the word of GOD , only the Spirit of GOD has that office.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by MostHigh: 1:08pm On Jul 14, 2013|
So in other words you are saying THY KINGDOM SHALL NOT COME AFTER THE FLESH ABI??
Why do the heathens/Christians rage and the people imagine a VAIN THING?
No future government no future constitution based on the bible AKA ROD OF IRON.
You see how far gone you are in your pride?
Instead of living EXACTLY AS THE MASTER LIVED.. JUEDIZER AS YOU SAY IN A DEROGATORY MANNER SPEAKING AGAINST THE LIFESTYLE OF OUR MASTER AND SAVIOUR.
You can be exactly as the master is but not greater Goshen never greater.
You and your true disciples in their multitude are already ablaze.
Children of LAWLESSNESS.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Goshen360(m): 2:32pm On Jul 14, 2013|
^ I'm not gonna derail my brother's thread. I will have time and start a thread for you and me on this law and lawlessness issue you always come up with. Meanwhile, I leave you alone because you don't even understand the scripture I gave you. Lemme leave you not to derail this thread.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Boomark(m): 2:47pm On Jul 14, 2013|
PhenomenonVFX: As much as I see what u are trying to do, I fear it would only be futile. The church has been instutitionalized. There is so much money at stake now. Most pastors got their "calling" because of the money. Others who got the true calling and dont even believe in tithing are being influenced by the majority.
Very scary indeed.
Please can anyone furnish me with list of churches that do not compel their members to pay tithe.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by DrummaBoy(m): 3:53pm On Jul 14, 2013|
^That will be an interesting list to have but I believe the number is dwindling by the day
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by DrummaBoy(m): 4:07pm On Jul 14, 2013|
I want to add a word to the subject of Abraham tithing. It is being said that many of the words used in Genesis 14 are uncertain. That is the Hebrew words seem to have expired, so its difficult to decipher the Exact meaning of the passage.
Secondly, there was a pagan custom that was popular with Babylonians of those days and that is that 10% of war spoils must be given to kings and priests. That, it was this custom Abraham was following and not doing anything as an act of faith, when he paid tithe to Melchizedeck.
When I can access my laptop, I will update this with a reference from Dr Russell's site. I have also heard a tithe advocate mention it on TBN. Can I have anyone corroborate this?
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Image123(m): 4:41pm On Jul 14, 2013|
funny thread. i guess good is now by highest votes, and those who teach scriptural tithing are not reputable. Folks like Jesus Christ, Peter and Paul.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Nobody: 5:21pm On Jul 14, 2013|
Goshen360: Waiting for Olaadegbu and his offspring, Bidam and perhaps, other Judaizers will come also.It's like you have not recovered from your sick leave. What gave you this erroneous impression that i am an offspring of Olaadegbu? If i don't agree with you on matters on tithing you quickly jump into labelling such? Why?
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Nobody: 5:33pm On Jul 14, 2013|
Image123: funny thread. i guess good is now by highest votes, and those who teach scriptural tithing are not reputable. Folks like Jesus Christ, Peter and Paul.Don't mind this guy,even the folks he quoted talk about going beyond 10% which i believe they understand it as a token a believer should give God.To be sincere the offerings an individual give cumulatively every meetings he attends church could be far greater than the tithes which is once a month.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by Nobody: 5:56pm On Jul 14, 2013|
Bidam: Don't mind this guy,even the folks he quoted talk about going beyond 10% which i believe they understand it as a token a believer should give God.To be sincere the offerings an individual give cumulatively every meetings he attends church could be far greater than the tithes which is once a month.
You still don't get it do you.
The TITHE has been abolished, only greedy people who depend on this FRAUD will defend it to the death.
|Re: Quotations Against Tithing By Reputable Men Of God by MostHigh: 6:06pm On Jul 14, 2013|
Goshen360: ^ I'm not gonna derail my brother's thread. I will have time and start a thread for you and me on this law and lawlessness issue you always come up with. Meanwhile, I leave you alone because you don't even understand the scripture I gave you. Lemme leave you not to derail this thread.
I hear you.
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